FF7Masamune: http://www.thisstrife.com/sluggy/flash/plan9.htm
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: umm
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yeah
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the music was cool
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i guess :P
FF7Masamune: heh
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i dont understand why people make fun of jesus
FF7Masamune: Hah hah, I thought the funniest part was the randomness
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yeah but a plastic jesus isnt random
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: they could do better than that
FF7Masamune: oh well
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i dont think people realize what being nailed to freaking piece of wood and left there to die extremely slowly is like
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: let alone after being scourged
FF7Masamune: agonizing
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: do you know what scourging is?
FF7Masamune: not exactly
FF7Masamune: being whipped
FF7Masamune: or something?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: they tie you to a stump and beat you with a whip with glass shards and nails and rocks attached to it... they beat your back until your intestines fall out
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: anyway thats what they did to christ before making him carry the cross...
FF7Masamune: Well I guess they didn't do it that much or else he would have already been dead :\
FF7Masamune: Hmm
FF7Masamune: I dunno... I think I'd rather have his death than oh say having all of my skin peeled off layer by layer like one of his desciples, or so I was under the impression
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: what i am trying to do is not convict you but make you realize how de-sensitized we are to the cross and jesus' death
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: why do we wear the cross as JEWELRY?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: do we wear electric chairs as jewelry?>
FF7Masamune: Because it's a symbol of christianity
FF7Masamune: It may be an intrument of torture
FF7Masamune: but it's also the symbol of christianity
FF7Masamune: It's the same as putting a jesus fish on your car
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: no, nowhere in the bible does it say "let this be your symbol of what i have done"
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: its a man made symbol
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and its mocked and overused
FF7Masamune: Just like the church is a man-made church
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: rappers use it, random people on the street use it
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: a church is place to assemble
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: its not something you wear to look holy or cool
FF7Masamune: The different divisions of it, the culture, the traditions, the practices, many are manmade
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ok but i am not saying any of those are good, ben
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the only thing that is real is the gospel
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and that is a personal realtionship with jesus
FF7Masamune: Besides, if you really think about it, most violent symbols are underappreciated anyways
FF7Masamune: the sword
FF7Masamune: etc.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: um, i dont really see the comparison
FF7Masamune: My point is that all violent symbols are used really without thought for what they actually do, the cross is really no different.
FF7Masamune: It's what people use to brand themselves christians (save rappers and goths)
FF7Masamune: It's historical signifigance has nothing to do with it's symbolic signifigance
FF7Masamune: well, not in the way we are talking about it
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: but it does represent something
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: it does represent god dying for mankind
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: name one other thing it represents
FF7Masamune: Yeah, but what it represents is relative to what man wants it to represent
FF7Masamune: christianity as a whole
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: thats a completely vacuous argument
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: FF7Masamune: Yeah, but what it represents is relative to what man wants it to represent
FF7Masamune: It's a manmade symbol, as such man determines what it stands for.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: all symbols are man made...
FF7Masamune: Pretty much
FF7Masamune: point?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i dont understand why "man determines what it stands for" gives man a right to mock what jesus did on the cross
FF7Masamune: You were talking about how it's overused
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: your not really making a meaningful connection between the two
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: well it is overused
FF7Masamune: I'm saying it is "overused" because man uses it as a symbol of christianity as a whole.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and we determined what it means... how does that not make it overused?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i am saying that it should be treated with more respect as a symbol of christianity
FF7Masamune: Well, you were saying about how it's used on jewelry
FF7Masamune: Most of the people using it on jewelry are christians
FF7Masamune: and use it as a symbol of their faith
FF7Masamune: Don't forget that most of the country is catholic
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: catholics would use it
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: because their faith is fake
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: they dont have one, its all based on traiditon and ritual and doctrine
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: why should we wear shirts and bracelets with WWJD or "jesus saves" ?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: why cant we just live out loud?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and evangelize like REAL christians (aka the ones in the early church in the bible)
FF7Masamune: Because everything we wear expresses ourselves. So if you're going to where clothing that is supposed to express yourself, why not where that?
FF7Masamune: It's not like they don't live outloud just because they where clothing like that
FF7Masamune: wear
FF7Masamune: sorry for the typo
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: well we as christians should live out loud, it shouldnt be a motto or tagline
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: our faith and testimony needs to be bigger than that
FF7Masamune: Yes, so remove all trace of christianity from your clothing and jewelry.
FF7Masamune: Gotcha
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i mean, christians CAN wear that stuff and be perfectly fine, but i am saying that you will find 95% of christians live their testimony through something simple and easy and harmless like a shirt or bracelet or wearing a cross
FF7Masamune: Not everyone is an evangelist
FF7Masamune: and not everyone cares as much as you
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: thats why today;s church is weak
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and a bunch of easy going, laid back wimps
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: we don't know what real christianity is. we ignore the parts of the bible that tell us what real christians live like. its amazing, i just realized it the other day
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i am the biggest hypocrite, btw
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i am just sharing what is true, even though i need to work on following it
FF7Masamune: Actually, it's always been like that Keith. Think about medievil Europe. Most people didn't care, all they knew was that god existed, only a select few actually evangalized.
FF7Masamune: It's always been like that
FF7Masamune: Never in history has there been an entire race of devout anythings
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ben... i know dude...
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: whats up your bandwagon mentality
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i know you arent that shallow
FF7Masamune: You talk as if modern day is responsible for this apathy towards faith
FF7Masamune: I'm just saying it's always been that way
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i know ben...
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and i am saying its not good
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: we dont know how to live out our faith like we should
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: its always been like that, i am not saying its like that now because we wear crosses!
FF7Masamune: If everyone lives out their faith, man being the imperfect creatures men are start to take it to the excess. Pure devotion among too many causes ignorance, such is the case of the Spanish Inquisistion, the Blair Witch Trials and other such things
FF7Masamune: I'd bet that little if any of those people were actually witches, but extreme zeal causes them
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: well first off your assumption is completely unfounded
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: its illogical
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and the examples you supposedly supported with are terrible because in neither case is that an example of real devotion to christianity
FF7Masamune: Inductive reasoning is a form of logic, and therefor technically it is logical
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ok let me explain why both of your examples are not reflective of real devotion
FF7Masamune: It's real devotion to the church. Not many people have the character to have devotion to god but not the church.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: well actually you explained it... "extreme zeal" ... well extreme zeal is not a synonym for living out loud, living like Paul did in Acts
FF7Masamune: Because not many think that deeply
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: devotion to the church is meaningless, why would that be an example of how Christians are supposed to live?
FF7Masamune: My point is that whenever there are masses of people devoted to god, the church also gets devoted to
FF7Masamune: because it is manmade and easier to access
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You think the Catholics are devout Christianis, they are devout to their tradition, their doctrine, their church. And they have never evangelized once in their life because they are not saved to begin with.
FF7Masamune: and since the church is a manmade institution, it is easily corrupted
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yes, and the bible forbids that
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: luke 13
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the birds came and nested in the tree... thats what happens when institutions grow too large
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: it needs to stay small, personal, relational
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: big religion is just as bad as big government or big business
FF7Masamune: My point is exactly that. Massive and utter devotion to religion causes that religion to be used in ways that are contrary to itself.
FF7Masamune: Just like when everyone gets devoted to a nation
FF7Masamune: every single person devoted to it
FF7Masamune: the rights of people are no longer cared for
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Which is a prime example of why Islam is a false religion.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the only reason its growing is because the government's enforce it
FF7Masamune: I don't agree with that statement. Back in the time of the crusades
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: no one actually practices it with sincerity except a few
FF7Masamune: the christian knights attacking
FF7Masamune: were the ones raping
FF7Masamune: and pillaging
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You wish.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: The Turks caused way more damage than the Christians but you never read about that.
FF7Masamune: islam on the other hand was seen as a beacon of science and renaisance or whatever
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: The Turks have always done incredible evil things in the name of Islam.
FF7Masamune: Same as europe has always done incredibly evil things in the name of christianity untill recent times
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: OK name one Muslim that contributed somehting great duirng the Renaissance or science in general.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: OK but you are wrong because once again you are arguing off of the assumption that everything the European Church did was Chrisitan
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: it was all a bunch of power-hungry Catholics
FF7Masamune: Just as you are arguing off of the assumption that everyone done by the turks was islamic
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the Protestant Reformation didn't come around utnil several hundred years later.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: OK prove me wrong, Ben.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Be my guest.
FF7Masamune: It isn't. Everything that is written in the Koran that reads about excessive rape and killing... all of that is in most cases mis-translation
FF7Masamune: I know a muslim that can testify to this
FF7Masamune: Muslims here are incredibly civil in most cases
FF7Masamune: just as christians
FF7Masamune: it's just the culture of the middle east
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I don't speak on behalf of the Koran.
FF7Masamune: not islam
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I speak on behalf of what its followers do
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and I have never seen any Muslim act out of love
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Allah is a completely impersonal God
FF7Masamune: I have
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and the only source of salvation is through works, why you have Muslims blowing themselves up left and right because they have nothing more meaningful to do
FF7Masamune: I can say to you that all the muslims I know are very loving
FF7Masamune: and kind
FF7Masamune: infact, on average they are kinder than the average christian I know
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: And granted, "Christians" did a lot of stupid things but it was not biblically based, it was using Christianity as a means of power and influence
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I doubt you know many Muslims, but I guess I can't speak for you...
FF7Masamune: All of this stuff in the middle east is just people taking islam the wrong way
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: So far the only Muslims I have met acted completely out of obligation and tradition and really did nothing to live out their faith in a way not reflective of natural human lust.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Case in point: i met a very devout Muslim (at least she called herself that) that wanted to masturbate for me over her web cam.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: In fact, her whole existence revolved around sex, money, and shopping
FF7Masamune: Well than she can not call herself a devout muslim
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: do you realize that when the Iraqi goverment collapsed the Iraqi porn industry absolutely EXPLODED?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: it was nothing more than a suppressive, preventing them from having fun. they don't actually take the Quraan seriously
FF7Masamune: Yeah, this is typical of an opresses society that is suddenly able to do whatever they please
FF7Masamune: typical of an opressive
FF7Masamune: sorry
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: OK well if they were devout Muslims why would they suddenly indulge in carnality
FF7Masamune: Because they didn't feel they had to anymore, and not everyone is a devout muslim
FF7Masamune: all we here about are the extremists
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Ben, Islam is like Buddhism.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: If you examine the number of people who follow it out of tradition compared to the number of people who actually practice it faithfully and believe it, you will be very disappointed.
FF7Masamune: same with christianity
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I was just going to write that.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: But watch this: their is a smilarity between fake christianity, Islam, and Buddhism
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: in each case, the followers are believing that good works will earn them salvation.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: With bible-based Christianity, you have something so radical that no other religion can compare. No one has ever seen a God that loved his children so much that God HIMSELF would die for us in human form.
FF7Masamune: Yes, but also on the contrary, not many religions have seen a god that damns sinners to such horrible places.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: God doesn't desire any of His children to go to Hell.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: It's our choice.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Do we not love our sin?
FF7Masamune: God could end the concept of hell whenever he wished.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Charles Barkley's brother had a near death experience and actually saw Hell, called it the most real thing he's ever seen, yet still willingly refuses to accept Christ as Savior because he admits he loves this world so much.
FF7Masamune: The fact that the Judeo-Christian god has such a horrid "hell" also makes him one of the must ruthless.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Yes he could end Hell and then we would all be puppets, autamatons lacking any real meaningful relationship with him.
FF7Masamune: Well, by the standards that is.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: How can he be ruthless if, in order to keep up from going to Hell, he came to earth to die for us since we cannot save ourselves?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I know of nothing in existence more loving.
FF7Masamune: Point in case, our concept of the Judeo-Christian hell is one of the worst.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Jesus actually took your sin and my sin and all he requires is that he trust him as Savior and believe the Gospel
FF7Masamune: god has the ability to make the hell what it is
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Simple fatih, nothing more.
FF7Masamune: he decided what hell would be
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: It's separation from God.
FF7Masamune: he decided what torture this lost children would go through
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: It's not going to be pretty. You are going to get punished for rejecting His love, which he has made so obvious.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Unless you live in some remote tribe, in which case missionaries are callled to share the Gospel.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: No, Satan decided. God didn't create Hell or sin.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: He merely permitted it.
FF7Masamune: By permiting him instead of changing it, he did decide.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Would you prefer not being able to sin? Where would the test be? Where would the battle be? Where would faith be?
FF7Masamune: Nowhere, it would be perfection.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Permitting is different than deciding, I assure. Just look up the definition.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Exactly, and what relationship would that be if we were all born into perfection?
FF7Masamune: Permitting is a type of decision
FF7Masamune: a perfect one
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You see how marvelously Satan fit into God's plan? Satan gave us freedom, we now have a choice. You can make the choice yourself, God isn't going to make it for you. And you can't whine otherwise on Judgment Day. You will always be accountable for you own actions.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: So I lay before you two paths: God's, or Satan's
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the choice is yours!
FF7Masamune: My point is that people preach about how much god loves his children, yet he allows them to suffer eternal damnation.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: They chose it Ben.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Why can't you comprehend something so simple?
FF7Masamune: I am comprehending it. They may not believe it at all
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I chose NOT to be on Satan's side. So what now?
FF7Masamune: Most people don't choose "I want to be on Satan's side". Most just say "I don't really believe in god, so meh"
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Not believing it because they love the world, they would hate to believe it. Satan has deceived them.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Apathy is 10 times worse than cursing God Himself, you realize?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Satan would prefer for everyone to be in a complete state of "Well, I will think about God when I get old. Right now I want to have FUN!"
FF7Masamune: On the contrary, when I was atheist it wasn't because I loved the world. I loved the idea of god more than anything and it pained me to see that there was no such thing, but I was a realist.
FF7Masamune: I know many others that are like that.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You were a realist because because you focused on the material. God works through greater means than His creation.
FF7Masamune: No, I was a realist because I came to the logical conclusion that he couldn't exist, despite how much I wanted him to.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Anyway, I know what your struggles are like. I really fought with God's existence as an early teenager.
FF7Masamune: Hah, this was years ago, it's not like I still go throught it :P
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: The logical conclusion, and the scienitific one, would be that God does exist.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: There is absolutely no reason why something instead of nothing exists.
FF7Masamune: You're missing the point
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I realize that there are many logical examples of why God might not exist, but all of them can be refuted with more logic. So debating it would be going in circles.
FF7Masamune: The point is that many don't disbelieve in god because they want pleasure, they misbelieve in it because despite how much they want to believe, they figure it can't be real, despite how hard htey try to believe.
FF7Masamune: they
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Well just sitting on your bed side "wishing" isn't going to do anything.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: It's a relationship. It's not blind, dumb faith just for logical reasons.
FF7Masamune: Yeah, exactly the view of many
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Also, I could you prove you wrong in most cases.
FF7Masamune: That is irrelevant
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Most people are perfectly aware that God exists, but refuse to because they want pleasure.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You realize that there are more of that type than your type?
FF7Masamune: I am countering your point that most people are atheist because they care too much about physical pleasure
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I never once said that.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I agree with you 100%.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: concerning your view on why atheists are atheists.
FF7Masamune: Satan would prefer for everyone to be in a complete state of "Well, I will think about God when I get old. Right now I want to have FUN!"
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: It's the reverse that I am talking about in terms of loving pleasure----theists who hate God because they want pleasure.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: That wasn't referring to atheists necessarily!
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: You are taking it out of context. I was giving a reason why apathy is better than atheism.
FF7Masamune: Well it's definitely not referring to anti-theists.
FF7Masamune: didn't you say that it was 10 times worse earlier?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Apathy is 10 times worse than rank atheism.
FF7Masamune: Sorry, it must have been a typo --
FF7Masamune: my fault
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Oh i don't care. It was GREAT talking to you about this.,
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I hope you understand my poitns.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: I hope you would argue from my side if you were debating a real atheist. I realize you like playing devil's advocate because it sharpens your skills and gives me something to debate.
FF7Masamune: I would debate from your side if debating an atheist
FF7Masamune: because I'm a theist
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Yeah, I figured :-P
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: w00t
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Just never forget that the Crusades and Inquisition are examples of manking violating the mustard see parable in Luke 13:13
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Atheists hate to think that they are only proving the validity of the Bible by arguing that government mandated religion is evil.
FF7Masamune: You see, it was true in that. I have respect for all religions, not just christianity.
FF7Masamune: I also do prefer that not many be evangelists. It's not my lack of trust of god, it's my lack of trust of man. I think god also realizes this and as such doesn't often let complete devoutness happen among everyone.
FF7Masamune: Most people just are too ignorant to be that devout
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Yes but evangelism is reflective of real Christianity. Look at how the early disciples and apostles lived. That was genuine. They risked their lives everyday doing what God commanded of them. They were truly living for Christ, above all else.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: 1 Cor 10:9b -- "Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!"
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: But don't worry Ben, I read that only 2% of professing Christians evangelize. So don't worry about the numbers!
FF7Masamune: Yeah, but I feel that if everyone started to feel as devoutly as oh say (and I'm not trying to single you out or say that your ammount of faith is bad) you, most people won't be intelligent enough to be devout intelligently. I fear it would end up repeating the course of everything that becomes too widely accepted and fought for.
FF7Masamune: But I'm not debating, just expressing my views. It's too late to debate and I have to do a backpack of homework.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Haha, Ben, Christianity in its real form never has and never will be accepted widely.
FF7Masamune: exactly
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Government's used it to appease people but that's it.
FF7Masamune: That's why I don't want it to be widely accepted, it's true form never will be.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: In it's purest form its only among people, not nations. Therefore why should we not spread the good news of Jesus Christ?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: We called, it is our duty. It is how people are lead to Christ---word of mouth.,
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: Anyway, I got to go. Nice talking to you.
FF7Masamune: you too
FF7Masamune signed off at 11:41:33 PM.