Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ..... i don't really want to look in & just pick on one point, without even having read the whole thread since i've left off yet (hope to do so ca. weekend), but @ catholic girl: what about those other than the jews... does it qualify you for heaven if you just follow the laws of your religion, whatever the gods & whatever the laws, even if they are contrary to those of judaism & christianity ? @ freegrace... thanks for promoting my poem ! posted 01-24-200104:55 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Catholicgirl: Regarding Question #2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On this matter, I must disagree with Catholic girl. From my perspective the basis of salvation has always been by faith. Although the content of the faith may have changed (the Jews in the Old Testament were saved by looking forward to the coming messiah as symbolized by the blood on the doors for passover), the law was NEVER a means of salvation. The law was designed to demonstrate our need for Christ. Galatians 3:13-14 says,"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a cursefor us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on A TREE"-- 3:14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:23-26 says, "3:23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 3:24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Clearly as a result of Christ's blood shed on our behalf, those who share the faith of Jesus are not under the law. However, Catholicgirl, my objective is not to start an internal debate. As a rule, I do not like to debate, especially among Christians, because little gets accomplished. We can agree to disagree on this point because I do not want to slow you down in your process of answering these questions. My preference would be for you to continue with your answers to Shokan. However, because I have stated differently in the past, I did want to restate my position. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm sure you are tired of reading by now, but to answer your question, the way for salvation has always been by faith. The Bible says of Abraham in Genesis 15:6, "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Incidentally, you mentioned the 10 Commandments. People like to point out that people shouldn't kill but they neglect to point out the first two which were the most important, " 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. 7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. Basically, we should worship the one true God and not make up a God that fits in our little box. We must accept God as He is, not how we want Him to be. Faith in this one true God is what guarantees salvation. As for the sacrifices, since sin came through Adam, blood has always been the payment for sin. Animals blood were shed to provide to cover their nakedness. The Israelite sacrifice prefigured the ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God. As for why we no longer keep the Old Testament regulations refer to the attached link entitled An Open Leter to Dr. Laura, A Christian Response: http://marilynmansonbbs.artistdirect.com/1b/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10019&f=371193081&m=604194063#498195063 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think I did answer the question of how people who lived before Christ were judged. The answer was by faith. Since the initial fall of man, sin has always been remedied by sacrifice. After Adam and Eve realized they were naked, and they attempted to cover themselves with a leaf. "21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them." This is the first example of animal death we have in the Bible. An innocent animal died so that others could cover their nakedness. In Genesis 16, the Bible says, "6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." The word for reckoned is the same concept of receiving a credit in one's account. Keep in mind, that Abraham had not lived a righteous life. He sold his wife into slavery twice, he doubted God several times, he had sex with his wife and tried to send her to the wilderness. So it was a great credit for Abraham to be considered righteous. In the Old Testament, this same concept was demonstrated when each year during the passover celebration, the Israelites sacrificed an innocent lamb to remember how God delivered them in Egypt. When this group was condemned to die, He passed over those who had the blood on the door. These things were all symbolic of the great sacrifice that was to come. Hebrews 10:1-10 says, "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me; 6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure. 7 "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the roll of the book it is written of Me) To do Thy will, O God.'" 8 After saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast not desired, nor hast Thou taken pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Jesus provided the ultimate sacrifice so that we are no longer under obligation to live by the ceremonial law of the Old Testament (I actually answered this question in my response regarding homosexuality to the Dr. Laura post). As for people that never heard of Jesus, the Bible answers that question as well. Romans 10:9-15 says, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!" Here is the point, this argument is usually used as a Red Herring to attempt to debunk Christianity. This is my question, Are you really concerned about the eternal destination of these people or are you saying it to make a point? If you really are concerned about them, then the best thing you can do is share the Good News with them. Thus, you are part of the solution instead of the problem. Since you are not in this group (you have heard the truth), you should not reject God's offer because you are worried about the eternal destiny of those who have never heard. Entrust their destiny to a just and loving God. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atossa...I'm really short on time because I have a Greek quiz tomorrow and I am very behind in that class. I will be working all of Friday so I will try to respond on Saturday. In my opinion, the point about Abraham set the standard for salvation, but I will elaborate more. I don't know how else to answer the law question, my response to Dr. Laura seemed pretty definitive. As you know, the Greek concept of telos, or perfect completion/end, can be applied to the Old Testament law. Paul suggests that the purpose of the law was to bring all men to a realization that He cannot save Himself. It is not that the law was so imperfect, but humans are. The requirements of the law were so stringent, that no one could possibly comply with all of them. That coupled with the fact that the Pharisees and Saducees added to those requirements because they thought that the law made them righteous made the situation more cumbersome. The Bible says the law was a mirror that revealed our dirtiness, but it was never meant to take away our dirtiness. You can't clean your face with the mirror, but that is exactly what the Jews and current day Muslims are trying to do. The Christian accepts the revelation of the Old Testament of the law, but not the requirements of the law. In short, we see the law as a revelation of God's holy character. However, we are required to follow that which was taught in the New Testament (not to earn salvation but out of obedience to Christ's lordship) because the law was a shadow of the things to come (see my previous response to Rictus on circumcision). As I mentioned, we no longer sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sins, because the ultimate sacrifice was made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:12 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 My Beloved Rosa ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I wrote you on a separate post because I wanted to save you the trouble of reading information that was posted on the previous thread. Your poetry is quite good and I hope everyone on the thread took the opportunity to read it. I am impressed by the writing abilities of so many people on the bbs: yourself, Devilmunchkin and Order in Artificial Chaos (although I am still heartbroken about Chaos' last poem about the man with the gun) I just wish that more poetry was filled with hope, but it is hard to write about something so few people feel here. Nevertheless, it was a great portrayal of your feelings and I'm glad you posted it. I would have copied the whole thing in but I was afraid you'd get mad at me since you ran away once you posted it. God Bless, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:17 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ hey!!! I'm workin on it!!!! LIke i told my leadership class this morning: i cannot undo 12 years of emotional abuse on me by my parents and myself in a short time. It's a process. Anyway, I also wanted to point out how not giving your wife children was also a big nono in OT times. Remember Judah and tamar??? Judah's sons were killed because they withheld their sperm from Tamar's womb so she couldn't conceive. But, if you think about it, it kinda makes sense. Tamar was their older brother's wife. When he died, it was their responsibility to carry on that brother's line. ALl children from tamar would be that deceased brother's line and thus those younger brother's would loose their inheritance. But apparently thta's not kosher when god wants to populate the earth...god zapped them in zeus-like fashion. anyway..that was just a complete schpeel and tangent. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-24-200108:34 PM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i heard catholicgirl was goin to answer my questions I try too hard. posted 01-24-200108:40 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin, what on earth are you talking about? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Working on what? Emotional abuse? What does that have to do with the law? Hey, nevertheless, interesting point on the issue of Tamar. Yes, I would most certainly agree that leaving a woman without child was a big no no in the OT because widows could not work for themselves like women do in America. A widow either could depend on her family for sustenance (which is the case with a woman who must be taken in by the kinsman redeemer as in the case of Ruth and Tamar) or become a prostitute. However, the issue was more than just children but who would take care of Tamar in light of her husband's death. Good night Ms. Troublemaker! Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:42 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Yeah, look she already answered one and two ------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I gave her my answer to #3 and she stated her opinions. Look on the previous page...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:45 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 drugs ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I use drugs. I eat mushrooms. Therefore I am God. Cogito ergo sum. posted 01-24-200108:48 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ sorry, should have specified. i was referring to you said that nobody writes anything happy or hoeful. well..i'm working on it. i have to fix alot of damage that's been done to my ugly insides first. It's going to be a long process. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-24-200108:50 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Welcome Back Prarie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good to see you. You are God? Funny, I pictured Him to be immortal, all powerful. Somehow you did not fit my description Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:50 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 freegrace: a question ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Six posts from now, do you suppose your head will spin and you'll begin projectiling vomitting pea soup? Curious... posted 01-24-200108:52 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Doubt it ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I choose not to reinact movies, I'd rather live out the Bible instead. It would be a funny sight though...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:56 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Oh...OK ------------------------------------------------------------------------ True...I look forward to seeing one of your happy poems...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200108:58 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i thought i HAD written some..on my page..the first set are "happy" ones...like WOnderland MAnor THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-24-200108:59 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 hmm...what about Jesus? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You live out a book? Why not live out the life of your lord and savior: John 14:11-12 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father." p.s. only three posts remain...be careful. posted 01-24-200109:01 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Good Point ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fortunately, I can do both! quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200109:04 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 you win ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I had no idea that Jesus wrote the book of John. two posts left... posted 01-24-200109:14 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Ha...Ha ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, John wrote the book of Jesus, "John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Also note that it was a direct quote of Jesus' words that I gave you! 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-24-200109:18 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the midst of my discussion with Prarie, I neglected to see the fact that you have written a happy poem. What's your website again? I'm at work, so maybe it is not coming through, but I don't see it on your sig anymore. Why don't you copy and paste your happy poem on this thread? It will be nice to see one for a change (not that those who didn't write happy poems are not good writers). I'm still trying to get over Order in Artificial Chaos' poem about the gun. That was hard to take. Oh well, I love anybody here anyways. It just breaks my heart to see so many people who are so talented but without hope. I'm at work, so there's no telling when the filter will kick in (it usually blocks this site but for some reason it isn't today). If I can't get back here, I'll try to look at it this weekend. God Bless, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-25-200107:42 PM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ still nothing worthwhile to contribute, but bumping this up because of the general intellectual decline this board seems to be suffering since yesterday.... & can't help to add that... my translation of an interview with trent reznor from a german magazine is on nineinchnails.net/news.... worldwide fame !... LOL ! (even though they used my last name & made me a guy... hm... Veronika sounds definitly male, doesn't it...) posted 01-25-200111:06 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
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