| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 CONGRATULATIONS ROSA! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is awesome. I don't know what happened. Hopefully I didn't scare people off. Especially Plastic Jesus. He was asking quite a few honest questions I thought (although Rictus, Mike Sorrow, Devilmunchkin, yourself and everybody else was too, I just haven't seen as much of Plastic Jesus lately). The other problem is that the posts were probably too long and it was too much to read to get caught up with what was going on. That was probably my fault. I'll take a look at your translation. A great poet and a translater. A gentlewoman and a scholar. Once again that is awesome. I guess that makes two people who thought you were a guy. Don't feel bad La_Morte and Devilmunchking thought I was a girl. It happens to all of us. I'm on my way to the gym but I just popped in to say hello. Maybe it is time to let the thread die. We had a lot of good interactions. You and Rictus have been on since the Was Jesus a Myth? thread. It appears that we might have touched on many good issues and maybe there is little left to say. Nevertheless, I'll talk to you later. I've got to go work out. God Bless and thanks for posting...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-26-200110:56 AM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Little left to say?!?! haha. You know me better than that man! I've been busy (saw Manson twice in 3 days, and i am knackered!!!). I'm also having some personal issues to work through, partly involving my father. Things are getting positive, but it's kind of stressful and time consuming. I want none of you to feel neglected or that I have stopped caring, I haven't, it's just life intrudung. Rosa, congatulations!!!! great stuff, I hope you feel good about that, it's a great thing to have happen, and you made it happen. Freegrace, you asked what made people happy, what about their beliefs or spirituallity gave them hope/happyness. Would you like me to answer that? I would love to at some point, if your not bored to death of my point of view by now! A footnote about 'depressing' or 'hopeless' poetry: I don't wish to speek for others, but personally I've taken Manson's advice about depression to heart. He was once asked on this site what he did about depression, and he said he creates when he is down. I think tthat may be true of a lot of us, so although we do get depressed (who doesn't) it doesn't meen we're miserable all the time. I find the act or writing very thereputic, it really releaves the stress. My writing is often dark or seems 'hopeless', but actually my ability to write gives me hope. Also, I feel better when I read someone elses dark mood, and realise I'm not alone in feeling blue sometimes. Food for thought. Rictus. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-26-200112:49 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In the spirit of sharing, here is some of my writing. Feel free to critique, praise, demolish etc. Interview As I walked into the room, the fat man started to clap. He was behind his plain white table, his fat arse filling his chair, clapping with a sardonic smile on his face. "Congratulations!" "Thank you, thank you." I replied. Bowing, laughing, and wiping away invisible tears, I made my way to the table and sat down opposite him. "I feel better for that." I exclaimed. "Really." "Really." "You realise I was being sarcastic. As far as I am concerned, you have done nothing worth applauding." "So? You think I give a shit?" "I see. So you are an actions over intentions kind of guy, are you?" I shrugged. "Depends on how you look at it." I said, producing a packet of cigarettes and a lighter from my shirt pocket. "How do you mean?" he asked. "Well look at it like this" I said. "Um. Right, OK. Say. Ah! Say this guy, right, he's drunk, and he gets in a car and kills someone with it." "Yes?" "Well, he never intended to kill anyone, but never the less a body lies lifeless as a result of his actions. I don't think such a man should walk away unscathed. His actions were more important than his intentions. On the other hand." " I didn't invite you here for a philosophical debate."He said, interrupting me. "You didn't invite me here at all" "True." "So why am I here?" "Why are any of us here?" Pause. "Did you kill her?" he asked. "No." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "Scouts honour?" Another pause. He shifts his considerable bulk in his chair. I stub my cigarette out on the table top. "But you did love her." It wasn't a question. I replied anyway. "Yes." "Does it hurt?" "Of course it does. It hurts more than you could imagine." "We've all lost people we care about you know. There is nothing about you that makes you so special." I smiled. "Oh yes there is." "How so?" "You wouldn't understand." "Try me." I looked into his eyes, through his eyes, into his soul. "No." "OK" he said. "But you know what? I think you did kill her. I think you raped her and then strangled her. Incidentally, those eyes, are they contacts, or is it genetic?" I smiled again. "Genetic." "OK" he said, frowning. Pause. "But you did do it." Again, no question. Again I answer. "No. You are wrong." "No I'm not. She left you. She loved you but she left you anyway. For him." He waved a photo I had already seen in front of my eyes. "For him." He repeated. "Don't tell me that didn't hurt." "I've already said it did. It still does. Every day. But people get dumped every day. They don't all strangle their ex." "No. Just the special cases." "Which you don't believe I am." Silence. "You are beginning to convince me." "Bullshit." Pause. "OK, I am going to ask you one more time. Did you kill her?" "Who can say?" "You can, you callous bastard!" I stood up. "But you don't believe me, you stupid bastard!" I shouted, and as I shouted, I stared, I stared at his eyes, into and through them. I found his soul. And started to squeeze. He tried to look away. Couldn't. "Let me go!" "OK." I said. I let him go and strode out. No one tried to stop me. The fat blokes body was found last night. He was sitting on the sofa, watching the TV when his head exploded. The coroner has never seen anything like it. The media is having a field day. Did I do it? Who can say? "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-26-200112:56 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rictus, if Freegrace doesn't want you to answer the question, I do. Even though I'm not posting as much in here, the intelligent discussion is refreshing as opposed to most of the other posts in here. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-26-200112:58 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Mike:OK. Possibly not tonight, but soon, over the weekend I promise. Oh, and thanks! "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-26-200112:59 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pointless *bump* See you all tomorow! "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-26-200101:28 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Rictus...Please answer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Most definitely...I want to see everyone answer it. The main reason is that it helps me to better appreciate and understand everyone's point of view. Rictus, I would never grow tired of your beliefs. You are the main reason why we opened this thread remember? Thanks for the clarification on the writing. That is a great point of view. When I'm down, I usually read the Bible, call a friend or pray. Prior to being a Christian, I did write a whole lot of depressing poetry but that didn't mean that I was always depressed. I will critique your writing but maybe not tonight. I've got Greek tomorrow. I wish I understood Greek and Spanish like Rosa does English. Mike Sorrow, good to see you...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-26-200102:22 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cool! In that case, watch for my reply over the weekend. Thankyou for taking the time to read my lil' piece... Rictus. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-26-200104:22 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PS the personal stuff is working out well, I should be moving in with my dad soon!!! For a while, so I can work up there. It's very cool, if a little emotional. Later. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos [This message was edited by Rictus on 01-26-2001 at 06:30 PM.] posted 01-26-200106:25 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 That's great! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm glad to hear it and I look forward to your response. I'm off to study some more. Have a great day and may God richly bless you...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-26-200106:36 PM ARCANUM MAGNUM Member 123 Posts Member since: 12-17-2000 for Freegrace - biblical hypocracy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here's some real bigotry as shown from the Bible about the Jewish Pharisees (care to say the Bible writers are "two bit, ignorant bigots"?): Imagine being dragged from your house, hunted down town from town, flogged in a "house of worship", imprisoned and executed and all on account of your religion. Am I referring to events 70 years ago? No. I am referring to what First Century Christians endured! 1 Thessalonians 2:14,15 (English-NIV): 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men. Notice the fine points made by the Apostle Paul in this little bit of scripture! He brought out in two verses: 1) " those churches suffered from the Jews" Those sweet harmless little Jews were committing "hate crimes" against Christians! 2) "They displease God.." The Temple is still in ruins as a testament to that fact! Undeniable wouldn't you say? And last BUT certainly not least by any stretch of the imagination: 3) "They (Jews) are hostile to all men." I might as well throw this in seeing how I mentioned "Hate Crimes." Historically, who do most people think were more brutal- Nazis or Pharisees? Persecution and torture: Matthew 23:34 (English-RSV) [Jesus warned] Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town.... [To scourge means to lash or whip severely. Imagine Jews chasing people from town to town and flogging them in their synagogues! It happened and it is documented in the Bible for all to see! Tavish] The fulfillment: Acts 5:27-30,40,41 (English-RSV) 27 And when they had brought them [Apostles], they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, 28 saying, "We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 40 ... they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. Acts 8:1-3 (English-RSV) 1 And Saul was consenting to his death. And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Sama'ria, except the apostles. 2 Devout men buried Stephen, and made great lamentation over him. 3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. Acts 9:1,2 (English-RSV) 1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Saul later became the Apostle Paul after being "converted" on the road to Damascus and here is his confession of what he did to Christians: Acts 22:1,2,4,5-8,19,20 (English-RSV) 1[Apostle Paul speaks]"Brethren and fathers, hear the defense which I now make before you." 2 And when they heard that he addressed them in the Hebrew language, they were the more quiet. And he said: 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished. 6 "As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' 8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.' ...... 19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in thee. [YLT version: and I said, Lord, they -- they know that I was imprisoning and was scourging in every synagogue those believing on thee] 20 And when the blood of Stephen thy witness was shed, I also was standing by and approving, and keeping the garments of those who killed him.' .... More of Apostle Paul confessing and repenting from his wickedness: Acts 26:9-11 (English-RSV) 9 "I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things in opposing the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in all the synagogues and tried to make them blaspheme; and in raging fury against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities. {The Apostle Paul was really some sort of a vicious "Nazi" wasn't he when he existed as a Pharisee named Saul? He did all of this persecution in the name of Judaism! Proof below.} Galatians 1:1,13,14 (English-RSV) 1 Paul an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. Acts 26:1,4,5 (English-RSV) 1 Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself." Then Paul stretched out his hand and made his defense: 4 "My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and at Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews. 5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee. Here is what the Universal Encyclopedia (1905 ed) says of the relations of the First Century Christians and Pharisees: "In the passages referring to the Christian period, "minim" usually indicates Judeo-Christians.... During the first century of Christianity the Rabbis lived on friendly terms with the minim.... These friendly feelings, however, gradually gave way to violent hatred, as the minim separated themselves from all connection with Jews and propagated writings which the Rabbis considered more dangerous to the unity of Judaism than those of the pagans. 'The writings of the minim,' says Rabbi Tarfon, 'deserve to be burned, even though the holy name of God occurs therein'... It was forbidden to partake meat, bread, and wine with the min. Scrolls of the Law, tefillin, and mezuzot written by a min were burned (Git. 45b ; Yer, Shab. 14b ; Ab, Zarah 40b...) ... The relatives of a min were not permitted to observe the laws of mourning after his death, but they were required to assume festive garments and rejoice (Sem. ii. 10; Yoreh De'ah, 345).... an Israelite who found anything belonging to a min was forbidden to return it to him (see Hoshen Mishpat, 266, 2)." Univ Jew Encyc (1905) page 595 [The claim made above: "During the first century of Christianity the Rabbis lived on friendly terms with the minim." is out of agreement with what the Bible said. Tavish] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Let the "deniers and revisionists" lie all they wish but they can't keep denying that their forefathers invaded homes, dragged people out and committed them to prison, floggings and even death! Yes, the true "deniers and revisionists" are the Jews! More of their activity recorded for posterity: INCITING RIOTS & MISCHIEF: Acts 9:22-23 (English-RSV): 22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ. 23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him.... Acts 13:45 (English-RSV): But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted what was spoken by Paul, and reviled him. Acts 13:50 (English-RSV) But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, and stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. Acts 14:2,19 (English-RSV) 2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brethren. 19 But Jews came there from Antioch and Ico'nium; and having persuaded the people, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead. Acts 17:5 (English-RSV) But the Jews were jealous, and taking some wicked fellows of the rabble, they gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the people. Acts 21:27,30 (English-RSV) 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, who had seen him in the temple, stirred up all the crowd, and laid hands on him, 30 Then all the city was aroused, and the people ran together; they seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut. Acts 23:12-15 (English-RSV) 12 When it was day, the Jews made a plot and bound themselves by an oath neither to eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 13 There were more than forty who made this conspiracy. 14 And they went to the chief priests and elders, and said, "We have strictly bound ourselves by an oath to taste no food till we have killed Paul. 15 You therefore, along with the council, give notice now to the tribune to bring him down to you, as though you were going to determine his case more exactly. And we are ready to kill him before he comes near." [NOTE: Acts 23: 15 (English-NIV) council is rendered as Sanhedrin: Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him before you on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about his case. We are ready to kill him before he gets here.] We all know who these Jews were; they were adherents if the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin was the Pharisees' "court." I.E. The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943 edition, page 474] says: "The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single member of that literature, and round it are gathered a number of Midrashim, partly legal (Halachic) and partly works of edification (Haggadic)." Here is what two different Jewish sources state what Judaism is based on: ".... any decision regarding the Jewish religion must be based on the TALMUD as the final resume...." "The JEWS - Their History, Culture, and Religion", Vol. 4, p. 1332, Jewish Publication Society of America "The TALMUD is to this day the circulating heart's blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs or ceremonies we observe- whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists-we follow the TALMUD. It is our common law." THE TALMUD; HEART'S BLOOD of the JEWISH FAITH by Herman Wouk which also ran serially in the (11/17/59) New York Herald Tribune ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Matthew 23:34 (English-RSV) [Jesus warned] Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify..... Date: Thu, Nov 30, 1995 5:32 PM EDT By Philippa Fletcher MOSCOW (Reuter) - A Russian presidential commission said Monday that 200,000 clergy were systematically murdered under Soviet rule in a horrific cycle of crucifixions, scalpings and ``bestial tortures.'' Commission chairman Alexander Yakovlev, presenting the report at a news conference, seemed unconcerned that it might deter electors from voting communist or nationalist in parliamentary elections on Dec. 17. ``If it has an influence, I will be very satisfied,'' he said. The report by the Commission for the Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression also found that another 500,000 religious figures suffered persecution in the decades after Vladimir Lenin's Bolsheviks seized power. ``Documents relate how clergymen, monks, nuns were crucified on royal gates and shot in the basements of the Cheka (secret police), scalped, strangled, drowned and submitted to other bestial tortures,'' he said. Yakovlev said some of the material, from archives of the former ruling politburo and security services, had not been previously published and that uncovering it was traumatic. ``I was especially shocked by accounts of priests turned into columns of ice in winter... But that's not all, there were crucifixions ... It was total cruelty.'' He said hundreds of people were shot for not giving up church property, and only a fraction of the proceeds were spent on the poor as the authorities had promised. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common enemies" (Universal. Jewish Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336). Among the Jews who remained in Russia, which then included Lithuania, Ukraine (A History of Ukraine, Michael Hrushevsky, Yale University Press, 1941, passim), and much of Poland, were the founders of the Russian Bolshevik party. In 1897 was founded the Bund, the union of Jewish workers in Poland and Lithuania. . . They engaged in revolutionary activity upon a large scale, and their energy made them the spearhead of the Party (Article on "Communism" by Harold J. Laski, Encyc. Brit., Vol. III, pp 824-827). U.S. Gov't Printing Office House Document 1868 (65th Congress, 3d session- file# 861.00/8029): Report of the Netherland Minister Relating to the conditions in Petrograd. "Whole Soviet government has sunk to the level of a criminal organisation. Bolsheviks realise that their game is up and have entered into a career of criminal madness." "I found it necessary to promise that Litvinov should be allowed to leave England at once..." "The foregoing report will indicate the extremely critical nature of the present situation. The danger is now so great that I feel it is my duty to call the attention of the British and all other Governments to the fact that if an end is not put to Bolshevism in Russia at once the civilisation of the whole world will be threatened...." "...the danger is also being realised in German and Austrian quarters. I consider that the immediate suppression of Bolshevism is the greatest issue now before the world, not even excluding the war which is still raging, and unless as above stated Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately it is bound to spread in one form or another over Europe and the whole world as it is organised and worked by Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things." posted 01-26-200107:54 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Whoa Rictus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is a cool story. Very well written. I just got finished reading it. I'm proud of you. There is so much talent on this bbs it is amazing. You all are fortunate that I am a pastor. I could copy and paste all this stuff and get it published! That's great...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-26-200107:56 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Country Road Setting sun bathes the Land in gold Catching every frond, setting the earth ablaze Turning the dirt road to an Arizona clay hue Impressing with truck tracks and children's footprints Even the sapphire sky absorbs the radiance As if afraid to deny the Son Tall Tower of webby metal Serve as nests for country crows And drunken country cousins who've a bit too Much ale eating at their entrails All tied together by an inky black electric wire That buzzes and hums before Ra The sun bathes the fields and the farmhouseOf white 2 by 4's and ruddy brown tots Dressed in cut offs and fleeing though the fields Of an average Dust Bowl lot Blond, blue-eyed, Aryan until the freckles surface From kissing the Son Silence seeks the ear, tranquil and sluggish Occasional shriek of glee or bovine moan Smell of earth, or Grandma's fresh bread in the oven Sight of an endless sea, that rolls in waves of synchronism Feel of that ruby dirt between naked toes Feet planted in the country Sun ------------------------------------------- Little Rivulet's Flow to the Ocean Where the frigid, ebon waters froth upon the eastern seaboard Northern most continental state, the birth place of baby girl Seven moons into existence, her rocks divide eternally, passionless Crumbling matrimony Six more and the maternal shale uplifts her to the city of Fiestas Sus abuelos crio' a ella Aquiring a taste for literature early on Along with an aspiration to comprehend Perched at Nana's kitchen table for morning lessons while Mommy Woked nursing Growing up among adults in a felicitous atmosphere of pink baby roses Sus abuelos crio' a ella Mommy eventually remarried Procreating like a rodent, leaving girl solitary Excellence in curriculum got minimal consideration, but a petite Tenderness served its purpose The girl always had weekends at Nana and Papas'. Sus abuelos crio' a ella All joy must culminate at a point in time Adolescent body, aged mind brimming with ideas Yet not cognizant of society, its flaws, wonders, opressions, unaware of The infinite possibilities and roads to choose. Left utterly solitary and blue Los abuelos no pudieron criarla a ella. In her silver heart she bore their remembrance Sardonic thrity at thirteen, all her tenets secured Existing day to day, grade to grade the brain, who others sougth for answers instead of companionship Encountering it in the horn. Ella llevo' el recuerdo de sus abuelos. Presently standing before the Stage Rainbows of every hueglistening, encompassing her sphere Such promise and dreams never dared, roads that fork and wind around Unseeing bends of existence Abiding and bobbong within her eager grsp Sus abuelos guiara'n a ella ------------------------------------ Wonderland Manor Curious halls Illuminated by silver candelabras That throw gargoyle shadows upon the oaken doors Crimson carpeted spiral leads to Eden Twirling up and up, higher and higher Through time and ornate illusions Framed with painted ancestors And jewled chandeliers Curtained canopy beds in soft, fuzzy rooms Lacey curtains that billow and plume out in the sunny breeze The expanse of the veranda flies up Peering over at the maze of botanicals Curiouser and curiouser Square hedges lead round and round Exposing minature Edens with every bend and curve Round, toward the core, the centre, the heart an soul Glimpsing at delightful blooms, free of the Queen of Hearts Twirling on tip-toe, a small dance of piquesfor The innocense, woonderment, awae Of the azure sky, and leaves as green as a sparkling emerald The petal maze finally yielding Opening, blooming, like Eve's knowledge And beholding the delicate and magical ruby rose On its Roman dais Ever spinning, with its magic world orbiting THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-26-200108:15 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 *Breaths a sigh of Relief* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks Devilmunchkin...I really needed that...you have no idea how much the sadness of this bbs gets to me sometimes...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-26-200109:18 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why am I not surprised freegrace completely ignored Arcanum Magnum's post? posted 01-26-200111:00 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Prairie: Give the guy a break! he has a life outside this BBS. I'm sure he'll get round to it. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-27-200111:34 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 ARCANUM MAGNUM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for the information. I appreciate your input. Prarie, thanks as always for the vote of confidence. It is always so good to hear from you. When was the last time you built somebody up on the bbs rather than trying to tear them down? Incidentally, for the record I am 26. Please note that before your sources begin to provide you with inaccurate information. Rictus, I appreciate the support. As has been my pattern throughout this topic, I have often postponed certain dicussions in order to address the ones at hand. Prarie, if you would read the entire thread, you would note that pattern. Because we were in the midst of a discussion on evolution, I postponed some of Plastic Jesus' concerns until we finished with that topic. At issue, was a discussion of the subjective reasons for why each person believes as they do. In the course of that discussion, I had brought up the point of the writing on the bbs. Hence, Devilmunchkin and Rictus provided examples of their writing. Consequently, I commented on those first. On the issue of the Pharisees, ARCANUM MAGNUM, I would highly recommend Peter Connolly's Living in the Time of Jesus of Nazareth. To my knowledge, Connolly is not a Christian (although I may be wrong) but it gives a great deal of background of the exact historical issues at the time the Bible was written. It would probably serve you better than an Encyclopedia. Without taking too much time, your analysis of the situation does not include any information about the internal conflicts within Judaism that were caused by the Herodian dynasty. Whereas the religious leaders exercised both political and moral authority in the past, Herod restricted them to simply moral authority. However, the great tension existed because of the ways in which the Pharisees were expected to work in lock step with Herod and the Roman empire as well. Thus, they were not ruling on conviction but on the basis of the pleasing of governmental authorities. Their hypocrisy was clear and that is why Jesus was making a great point about. Connolly writes: "Herod immediately set about making his throne secure. Ten years earlier the Sanhedrin had charged him with a capital offence. Now he was to have his revenge. The council was dominated by the Saducees who had been the chief supporters of Antigonus. Herod executed 45 of its 70 members and confiscated their property. It made a welcome addition to his treasury. The power of the council was henceforth restricted to religious matters." Furthermore, as you point out the Talmud is the key revelation for the Jews. For more information, please read my posts on this thread of the purpose the law was intended to serve. The issue at hand was that the Jews made the law their source of righteousness rather than their faith in God. Also, if Jesus' claims were false, they were required to kill him as a blasphemer and those who followed him. Thus, to argue that the tension was a result of the actions of the Christian is highly speculative and would require far more than two quotations from Encylcopedias to make the case for revisionism. Speaking of revisionism, who is more likely to have the correct information? Someone who lived during those times and witnessed those events? or someone who quotes two encyclopedias and lived 2000 years later? If you want evidence of historical revisionism, take a look at the Was Jesus a Myth? thread that was opened. Furthermore, if you have any doubt of the inability of the Jewish leader to lead, read the prophetic works of Daniel, Malachi, Micah and many others. That has always been an issue. To all who have stayed with me on this thread, I would like to let you know that my time is becoming very limited. While I may not be as efficient as Prarie would like for me to be, I have devoted a great amount of time and energy to answering your questions. In light of my work, school and family commitments, I will probably not be able to devote nearly as much time as I have in the past. My schoolwork is suffering as a result. Rictus and many others have been gracious in allowing me time to come up with responses, but I am having trouble balancing my schedule. If you do not see me around much, that is probably why. It does not mean I love you all any less, but I just need to make sure that I am being a good steward of the time that God has given me. I hope you understand. Sincerely, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-27-200112:14 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You tell 'em, Freegrace. Now, take a vacation. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-27-200112:21 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Historicity of Christ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Since historical portrayals of Christ have been such an issue on this thread, I thought that you might find the following article helpful: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Early Non-Christian References To Jesus Christ (Adapted from Consider Christianity: Evidence for the Christian Faith by Elgin L. Hushbeck, Jr.) The earliest references to Jesus by a non-Christian writer that we have were made by the Jewish historian, Josephus. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, which he finished in the year A.D. 93 or 94, Josephus refers to Jesus twice. The first reference is also one of the most disputed passages concerning Jesus, for it seems to have been altered at some time by Christians. The first passage as we now have it, states: Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.([1] Footnote) Many scholars have pointed out that for Josephus to have written such an account, he would had to have been a Christian. An orthodox Jew would not have written things like "if it be lawful to call him a man" and "He was [the] Christ." Since there is no other indication that Josephus was a Christian, it would seem clear that the passage has been altered. The real question is: Did Josephus write any of it, or is the entire passage a forgery? Research on a recently discovered Arabic manuscript of Josephus supports the notion that he is responsible for the majority of the passage. Schlomo Pines, a professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, found that the Arabic version did not contain the questionable phrases. The Arabic version reads as follows: At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.([2] Footnote) In this version, Josephus does not say that Jesus is the Christ, but only that "perhaps" He was. He does not say that Christ had risen from the dead, but only that His disciples "reported" that they had seen Jesus. There is nothing in this passage that could not have been written by Josephus. In the only other passage in which Jesus is mentioned, Josephus simply refers to Him as the brother of James. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James.([3] Footnote) This passage does not call Jesus the Christ. In fact, the way Josephus refers to Jesus in this passage as the so-called Christ is derogatory. Because of this, just as most scholars believe the first passage could not have been written by a Jew, they do not believe this passge could have been written by a Christian. Therefore, the second passage is generally accepted as authentic. In the second passage, Josephus mentions Jesus as a way of introducing the reader to Jesus' brother James. This implies that Jesus has already been introduced to the reader. Because of this, and the fact that it is unlikely that Christians would have been able to alter the Arabic version of Josephus, most scholars now accept that the first passage was not added, but has only been altered. These two passages provide a non-Christian witness to the fact that Jesus did at least exist, and that the major events recorded in the Gospels (that he was crucified by Pilate and was reported to have risen three days later) are basically correct. The Jewish Talmud, compiled near the end of the first century and during the second, also makes references to Jesus. In one passage we read that: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.([4] Footnote) The word for hanged used here was sometimes used to refer to someone who hung on a cross. From this passage we learn that Jesus (Yeshu) was a religious leader who practiced what the Jews referred to as sorcery (miracles?). We see that Jesus had a large following, that he "enticed Israel to apostasy," and that he was crucified on the eve of the Passover. There are other references in Jewish writings that reflect on Christian teachings. For example, we can see that some Jews felt a need to respond to the stories of the virgin birth from the fact that Jesus is sometimes referred to as "Jesus son of Pandera." Pandera was supposedly a Roman soldier.([5] Footnote) The Roman historian Thallus, who wrote a history of the world around A.D. 52, seems to have included in this history a discussion of the events concerning Jesus' death. While we do not have the writings of Thallus himself, we know of the existence of this work because it is quoted in other works from the period. One of the works that mentions Thallus is a work by the early Christian historian, Julius Africanus. While discussing the death of Jesus and the darkness that preceded it, Julius Africanus wrote the following: Thallus, in the third book of his history, calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun, but in my opinion he is wrong.([6] Footnote) It would seem that the debate concerning Christ and the events surrounding his death was already in progress by the middle of the first century. Cornelius Tacitus, who was one of the greatest of the Roman historians, also mentioned Christ in his Annals, written about A.D. 110. During his description of the burning of Rome, Tacitus wrote that rumors were spreading that Nero had set the fire himself. Tacitus wrote of Nero: Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a deadly superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but also in the City [Rome],where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world meet and become popular.([7] Footnote) We see that only a short time after the death of Jesus, Christianity had already spread, and had encountered great opposition. What do these non-Christian sources reveal about Jesus? Most important is what they do not say. These writers did not agree with what the Christians were saying about Christ. Tacitus called Christianity a "deadly superstition" and "hideous." These authors could be expected to make the strongest arguments against Jesus and Christianity possible. If Jesus had simply been a creation of Paul, and had not really existed, would not at least one of these early critics have pointed this out? Sometimes it is argued that these writers lived too long after the events to have known what had taken place. This ignores the fact that the controversy concerning Jesus was not something that began during the second century. As shown by these critics, it started much earlier. The opposition to Jesus started while He was still alive. It can be seen in the Gospels and in the earliest letters of Paul, which even liberal scholars accept as having been written around the middle of the first century. Surely the early opponents of Christianity would have known of the events that surrounded the life of Jesus. Yet the opponents of Christianity who were alive during the time of Christ, or who lived close enough to the events to have talked to those who did, never argued that Jesus did not exist. What we see with many of these non-Christian sources is an acceptance of the claims of Christianity, with attempts to provide alternative explanations. Take for example the Virgin Birth. The Talmud does not dispute the biblical claim that Joseph was not Jesus' natural father. Instead, the writers of the Talmud claim what would be the only other natural explanation: that another man was Jesus' father. More specifically, that Jesus' father had been a Roman soldier named Pandera. Christian scholars have long pointed out the similarity of this name to the Greek word Parthenos (virgin), and have concluded that the name chosen for Jesus' father is simply a derogatory corruption of the Greek word for virgin. Interestingly, making Jesus' father a Roman soldier would also preclude another claim that Christ made: that he was a descendant of King David. As for the miracles recorded in the Gospels, those who lived at the time of Jesus' ministry, or shortly thereafter, made no attempt to claim that they did not occur. They tried to explain them away. Jesus claimed that the miracles were a sign from God to prove that He was the Son of God. The Talmud, however, does not refer to miracles done by the power of God, but to "sorcery," the acts of a magician. Implicit in this explanation is that some miraculously appearing events did occur. The explanation for these events was disputed, but their occurrence was not. This tacit acceptance of Christian claims can also be seen in the argument of Thallus concerning the darkening of the sun just before the death of Jesus. Thallus apparently accepted that there was a period of darkness at the time Jesus died. Rather than trying to dispute the darkness, he attempted to provide a natural explanation for it, one that did not require Jesus to be who He claimed to be. Thallus provides us with evidence to support the biblical claims for darkness at the time of Christ's death. Since Jesus was crucified during the Passover, and the Passover occurs fourteen days after the new moon, we now know that this darkness could not have been caused by an eclipse. From the writings of the early critics we learn that there was a religious teacher named Jesus. We are told that His birth was not a normal birth. During His ministry Jesus did many miracles. He had a large following, and the religious leaders of the time opposed Him. We learn that while in Jerusalem for the Passover, Jesus was arrested. He was condemned to death by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. His death was by crucifixion. During the crucifixion there was an unexplained darkening of the sky. Finally, His followers claimed that three days later Jesus rose from the dead and still lives. Admittedly, this may not be proof that Jesus is the Son of God. But when you consider that these conclusions are based on the statements of the early critics of Christianity (not usually considered to be a rich source of supportive material), the support they provide is truly amazing. Referenced Footnotes: (1) Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII.III.3 (2) Quoted by Gary R Habermas, The Verdict of History (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, 1988) pp. 91-92 (3) Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews XX.IX.I (4) Quoted in Habermas, The Verdict p. 98 (5) Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (Dowers Grove, Ill: Inter-Varsity, 1987) pp. 198-9 (6) Quoted in Habermas, The Verdict p. 93 (7) Tactius, Annals 15:44 quoted in Paul Barnett, Is the New Testament History? (Ann Arbor, MI: Vine Books, 1986) p. 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-27-200112:27 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Freegrace: You KNOW what I'm going to say, it's cool, take all the time you need, we all have commitments, lives outside of the board, it's fine. I think like me you can get absorbed in debate easily, sometimes to the detrement of other things! Go ahead and do what you need to do. We will all still be here. Love & Respect Rictus. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-27-200112:31 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
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