Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ dammit!! but i should get an E for effort anyway..>!!! THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-29-200103:57 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Rosa: Hi, how are you? No pressure, but there's a story up there ^ somewere by me. It's short, and I'd really value your opinion, if that's ok. For what it's worth, I want to echo what I said to you at the time. You handeled yourself with dignity in the face of abuse and ignorence. I'm proud of you. Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-29-200103:58 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *gives devilmunchkin an "E" for effort* - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-29-200104:11 PM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @ rictus... i just read your story several times... i like it very much, but give me a little time for interpretation.... thanks again for support yesterday... i know i shouldn't let such things get so close to me, but i can't seem to help it.... it hurts, being hated that much, even by that person.... you, and freegrace have given me so much warmth, even when i sometimes think i don't deserve it... i havn't always been exactly nice to freegrace, esp. when the whole topic started.... it feels good... thanks.... posted 01-29-200104:56 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yeah, well fundimentally, you arn't an asshole, and they are. Just try to keep that in mind, it may save you some energy... Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-29-200105:14 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hello All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rosa...I'm sorry to hear about what happened. Please know with all sincerity that I truly do love you even though we disagree on some points. Feel free to come in or out as you please. Lately we've been talking about a lot of random things so you don't have to catch up to participate. You are always welcome here and I'm glad that you feel like this is a warm place where you will be appreciated. When you get a chance, I'd love to see your thoughts on the subjective reasons why you believe as you do. Actually, you are correct that Darwin was a theist and even when he wrote he was concerned at the consequences of his theories. Many other people who are often championed by non-Christians were theists as well (e.g. Ockham, Kant, etc.). Devilmunchkin...You get an E+ for effort. Your point about the flood was very much appreciated. I do think that can explain a great deal of the issues with respect to the world. I am very familiar with the commonalities between the religions but I mainly ascribe those commonalities as further proof that the event actually occurred. Many religions and countries could equally report on the travesty in India but that doesn't necessarily mean that one was inherently influenced by the other. On the issue of probabilty, I agree with you. My only point is this. When one calculates probability, one should also determine risk as well. For instance, I could invest in a stock that has a high probability to succeed, but the rate of return might not be that great. On the otherhand, I could also choose to invest in a stock that would not appear to be as certain, but the rate of return could be great or I could lose quite a bit. In the investment world, that is risk tolerance. In the same regard, if I take the atheist position, the probability in some people's eyes might be better, but if I am wrong and the Christian view is right, the effects would be devastating. If I take the Christian worldview, which in some people's eyes has a lower probability, and I am wrong, I won't ever even know I was wrong. This is not a reason to be a Christian but my point is that the risk of being wrong falls much greater on the side of the atheist. Furthermore, while you disagree, I don't even see the immediate subjective benefits of being an atheist as being very compelling. This, combined with the fact that there is too much evidence for God's design and hand in this world, would tip the scales of probability on the theist side in my view. Mike...Love is a very illogical thing at times. Frankly, the longer I go, the less I want to do it because the risk of getting hurt is too great. Consequently, one could say the probability of being happy would be much greater for me to stay single. But I don't always think with my head as much as my heart, so in that regard I would not reduce it to a purely scientific phenomenon. Who knows, an amazing Christian woman may walk into my life tomorrow and you all won't see me any more. LOL Rictus...I sure do love seeing your picture. I'm glad to see that you were here to encourage Rosa. She's a great girl and I'm so glad she came back. Later all...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-29-200110:28 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't know how we got to whether or not love is logical or not, but oh well. I think while in love, what you feel may not make sense. In that way, it isn't logical in your mind. But why you feel that way is logical. That being the impulses are sent to your brain as a result of outside stimuli. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ When one calculates probability, one should also determine risk as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Not when deciding a belief system. I don't believe risk shouldn't be a factor. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is not a reason to be a Christian but my point is that the risk of being wrong falls much greater on the side of the atheist. Furthermore, while you disagree, I don't even see the immediate subjective benefits of being an atheist as being very compelling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, the risk falls more on the side of the atheist. Yes, there aren't many, if any, subjective benefits. But I didn't choose a religion based on risks and benefits. I chose it based on concrete facts and proof. Also, atheists didn't choose to have it this way. None of us got together and said "this is the way it's gonna be", unlike the founders of religion, who did that when they wrote the Qu'ran, OT, NT, etc. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This, combined with the fact that there is too much evidence for God's design and hand in this world ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "This", meaning the risks and benefits, shouldn't be combined, though. You even said, "This is not a reason to be a Christian". Why do you even take risks and benefits into consideration when choosing a religion? Plus, the latter is far from fact. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-30-200112:49 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree with Mike about choosing...we don't choose to be this way..it's just what seems most logical to us. I also know many people think gay and bi people choose to be the way they are ( i don't agree with that either)..perhaps it's like that..except we don't choose. AS far as love..when i'm in it or out of it i know it's irrirational and fly by the seat of your pants..but damn it can feel good and be the most wonderful feeling on the face of the planet. it makes me feel alive. I've heard a quote and can't remember who said it : "The heart wants what it wants"Free grace: i HAVE started reading LEft behind. ANd while i say the plot is interesting (but we can't contribute that to the authors now can we), there english narrative style is a little lackluster. There's so much detail and images they could produce..they're blander than my poetry. Just my opinion so far..that and it's a fast read. I'm zinging through it. ONe thing though: Is Nicolae the Antichrist? I got the info about the flood from a recent book that came out..called Noah's Flood, but as I recall they never claim that's the flood that it is...of course it could be. who knows. What do you know about the boat/ark possible on Mt. Ararat? THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-30-200107:39 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin, Rosa and Mike Sorrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Devilmunchkin Frankly, I know very little about the flood or Niccolae in Left Behind or the shroud, or why love is so confusing. How is it that you always find a way to stump me? I tend to spend little time with the archaeology because even if we proved every aspect of the bible right, I still believe that many people would not believe. Mike I was using love as an illustration of why all of life is not logical. If you make every decision based on logical probabilities, you will miss out on a great deal of the finer things in life, including a relationship with God. Incidentally, I see a relationship with God as a personal love relationship. In many senses I see it as a marraige. My point was that the greatest probability in any relationship is that you will get hurt, but that wouldn't prevent me from entering a relationship. I agree, I do not think people should accept Christianity for fire insurance (i.e. escape from hell). My point about risk is that I think that Christianity should be more strongly considered thoroughly before dismissing because of the risk. While risk should not be the predominant factor in the decision, I also think that it should tip the scales and that probability should not be the only factor being considered. That's all. Deciding on faith takes a great deal more consideration than whether you believe in evolution, etc. Not to say that you haven't considered it fully. Your post about your religious journey makes that clear. Rosa, what is it that you like so much about Trent Reznor? I love Pretty Hate Machine (I know that makes me sound like a poser which I am). My friend and I were listening to it tonight while we were cooking dinner. I saw NIN in concert several years ago on Halloween. It was awesome. Hey Rictus...What happened to the Tupac thread? We were so close to 500? God Bless all and have a great night...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-30-200110:16 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi everyone! I haven't been 'active' in this thread for a while, but I have been reading with interest. I want to thank you all for participating, and it brings me real pleasure to see this thread still running. @Freegrace: Were were close to the half century, I think. I'm sure I'll get there . I'm listening to Rage Against The Machine right now.. these guys rock! So, what about my belief system brings me hope? Ultimately, I believe in people, and life. I believe in the ability of people to be creative, exciting, to care about themselves and others. Sure, I believe in the immortal soul, and reincarnation, but what it really boils down to is a faith in life to be wonderful. I believe that people hold the keys to thier own salvation, that we all have the power to affect change. I believe that by affecting personal change you also affect global change, and that by being true to oneself one is also true to others. I believe that people want to be honest, they want to have and share love, they want to help each other. Everyone wants the world to be a better place, a happier place, because everyone wants happyness. I believe what holds people back is fear (which leads to hatred etc.), and that what people really fear is thier own awsome power. If people can grow up without fear, with love and respect and tollerence, then there will be no limit to their achivements. Basically, I'm a hippy, I suppose! Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-31-200111:12 AM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Clever use of "fire insurance", Freegrace! - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-31-200112:14 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @freegrace: trust me..stumping you isn't intentional. I just..have a quest for understanding (but not Faustian in any sense). Perhaps the difference between the love Mike is using and the one freegrace is using is that Mike is viewing love toward tangible people and the act of LOVe itself is irrational. Freegrace though sees the ultimate LOVE with god..something that is not tangible at all and therefore THAT aspect is irrational. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-31-200103:11 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amen. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-31-200103:39 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 Freegrace ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Hope things are well with you. I'm glad to see the disucssion is ongoing, as it has been since time immemorial. There's something you said several days ago which I took umbrage to, couldn't let it go in good conscience. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, John wrote the book of Jesus, "John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Also note that it was a direct quote of Jesus' words that I gave you! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The book of John is traced back to roughly 100-125 C.E. The earliest fragment of the book has been dated at 125 C.E. The gospel of John in it's present form did not surface until some fifty or so years later - with the earliest manuscript suspiciously lacking the story of Advent and Easter. If the character of John the Baptist was murdered by Herod nearly fifty years before the book was written, how could he be ascribed to the authorship? In my opinion, you seem to be unable to reconcile faith with fiction. Why is it necessary to uphold historical distortions and fallacies in order to believe in God and Jesus Christ. Does not your faith accord you the power to see beyond the textual inaccuracies of the bible? Remember John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." When faith is based upon error, does it not cease to be faith? p.n. "Yeah, hes like an STD." - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-31-200103:58 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Prarie...Welcome back...It's good to see you here. I'm at work right now so I am unable to get to your question. However I will get to it. I just didn't want you to feel I was avoiding it. Devilmunchkin...I know you're not trying to stump me. I'm just joking with you. I believe you are honestly interested in these things and I'm sorry I don't know more about the great questions you've raised. Mike Sorrow...I'm glad you liked my analogy. Next to the blue pill (i.e. not accepting Christ), I think it's my best one. Rictus...Thanks so much for contributing to that aspect of the discussion. I appreciate your answer. It's always good to see you here. You were right. This thread had a lot more mileage than I thought. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-31-200105:35 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ....john never wrote the book of john..matthew never wrote matthew....mark never wrote mark.... Luke never wrote luke.. An author wrote JOhn (in the scripture it never claims anywhere who the author is..much like Psalms and Proverbs) and Matthew and Luke are adaptations of JOhn. I'm fairly sure that Mark is an adaptation of Luke (if i'm wrong then it's matthew..but i can't remember which). This could possibly start a whole new section... who believes in the JEDP theory!!!???? I'm not sure..i do know that no person named Moses wrote the whole first five scrolls of the Bible...because then he would have been writing about his death. (kind of ironic to think you're getting divine word about your death to the letter...how could he go on living in such case..he wouldn't have) THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-31-200107:22 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i can't believe it went ten pages back. what' swrong with you people! THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-01-200109:09 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hello Everyone ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'll be out of town this weekend. I will get to Prarie's point hopefully soon. Have a great weekend...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-01-200109:10 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ o! are you coming up this way!? THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-01-200109:12 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin and Prarie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Devilmunchkin...I'm actually going to be in Lake Livingston on a camping trip this weekend. But if I am ever in Waco, I will be sure to let you know. Prarie, so that you are aware, I need to do some research on the date you are quoting on the manuscript. I think that there is an earlier manuscript from John but I don't remember for sure. That is the reason for the delay in my response. It is not essential for my response but I just want to make sure I have all the information before I say anything. Hopefully you understand. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-02-200110:04 AM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
 |