| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *gives thread mouth to mouth* Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-05-200103:48 AM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 preacher man ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace and others - I'm so happy to hear discussion about Christianity. I am a believer as well, but I concede there are many problems with the values of many "Christians". I don't believe God wrote the Bible. It has been transcribed, re-interpreted, and manipulated to often oppress, manipulate and control people. In the early church, God was not the center. It was abotu money and government - 2 thinkgs God doesn't value. God is not about oppression, segregation, and controlling power. He is about acceptance, freedom, inclusion, and love. Any Christians that criticise or oppress others and use the Bible as an excuse is a fucking idiot! Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being an asshole! That proves you don't even know Jesus. Christ was the original Rebel and Rock Star. He was busy challenging the system and it's beliefs. Man still hasn't got it quite right. That's one of the reasons I love Manson. He is quite similar to Christ in that way. Manson once said in an interview "In order to change the mainstream, one must penetrate and change what the mainstream means and is by becoming it." I am quite driven in this life to change the view of what a Christian is. I am human - and don't think God hates me when I fuck up. I do not believe that GOd keeps a scorecard. I fuck up and He loves me unconditionally still. I am careful not to abuse or hurt others, and am esecially concerned about the children in our modern culture. They see the steak wrapped in plastic, and are disgusted. I have been teaching Sunday school for 2 years, and the things these kids parents have taught them makes me sick. I based on whole lesson once on "Rock'N'Roll Nigger". That's the kind of shit Jesus is about. "You should be ashamed of what you have damned - you're the Rock'N'Roll Nigger!", Rev. Manson - with supporting themes by Christ Jesus Look forward to more discussion. "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-05-200105:46 AM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BeautifulDEATH: Welcome!! I am very pleased to read your perspective. I think we have all agreed that many who caal themselves Christians do not even begin to understand what that means. Hypocracy is rife in the human condition, but you wouldn't know it the way many 'true believers' rant and rave in rightious anger. The world needs more like you and freegrace, who believe in tollerence, respect and love. I'm sure you realise that your view on the bible is an unusual one for a christian. What led you to it? How do you evaluate which aspects of it are 'wrong' or innacurate? How relevent is the old testement to your beliefs? Do you have a personal relationship with God? If so, do you believe he informs you concerning the bible? Do you believe in Christ as a historical figure, or as a metaphor for morality? I find your paralells between christ and manson interseting. I have shared similar thoughts with freegrace. Do you feel the need to 'preach' or withness others concerning the value of christs message, or do you believe that people come to God in thier own time? Once again, welcome to the discussion. Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-05-200105:55 AM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 theology beliefs ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I've read the Bible, and formed my own opinion after much suffering, prayer, asking God for discernment, and discussion with other spiritual people. I am angered by many of the writings from the Old Testament, and many of the things written do conflict with the New Testament. Jesus came back to preach against the eveils of opression, classism, sexism, and racism - and there are too many elements of this in the Old Testament for me to believe that it is a true, un-disfigured writing from God. Love is not the intertwining thread of the Old Testament - domination, money and fear are. That's not what GOd is about so therefore I cannot believe in it the way I do Jesus' word. When the Old Testament was written, it was primarily a tool of control for the government and upper class. I do have a very personal relationship with God - and no one coerced or preached me into it. I have been to hell and back, lived through many nitemares, and one physical death. I hated God and used to try and make "deals" with Him so I could just get away with something "one more time". His love and patience was with me was unconditional, and he protected my spirit from dying in the process. I don't "hear" Him talking to me, but I maintain a relationship through prayer, and constanly/consciously putting His will first in my life. I pray for Him to be my strength and focus. The resulting feeling I get is one of peace and centeredness. It doesn't take away my human urges, wants, or desire to sin - which is ok. God doesn't want perfect people. Being a sinner is ok. In every sin there is a lesson which makes us greater. I wouldn't change anything because my pain has made me who I am today. I am able to help others because of what I have been through and can relate without judging. The important gifts I have received are acceptance of, inclusion of, love for, and compassion for others. That is my responsibility as a Christian. Never to preach or criticise anothers belief. The aborigines in Australia, and the early Native Americans may not be Christian, but that doesn't mean they're all damned. Tiers of spirituality are not awarded based on the eartly written rules that you follow. It's how you internalize the belief, and act it out in your life that makes you a servant of God. I view the New Testament as a sort of "spiritual guide" that can be used for guidance if one is looking for it. Preaching and criticising others behavior, and using it as a weapon is so wrong, and is not what Christ intended. About Christ as a historical or metaphor figure for morality? I believe in the latter in regards to what his meaning is today. I believe he did physically exist - however - I don't believe he really did walk on water, feed 6,000 w/one loaf of bread, etc. I believe at the time, these were effective metaphors that conveyed the message that Jesus was teaching. The messages are still clear if viewed that way today. It's when fundamentalists use it strictly as a literal, damning text that it becomes inhibiting instead of liberating. I love when Manson sings "Anti-Christ Superstar", rips pages from Bible and throws them into the crowd. In the early ROman empire, only priests were allowed access to the Bible. Commoners were not allowed to read it. They were afraid to let people read it because they were afraid it would give them too much power to overthrow them. They were right! It's still right! Now the Bible has such a bad name though, becuase of all the assholes claiming they speak for it - but they are really only spitting their personal interpretation with its evil venom. The only thing I would offer to others is that they keep their spirit open to new lessons and don't give up on this world yet. We can still change it - and the fucked up Christians don't have to dictate our spiritual beliefs any longer! People are smart enough to make their own choices. I don't belive it works to push God/Christ/Buddah/ on anyone. One cannot be forced into believing something. Actually, I think it's just the opposite. People need to invite themselves to accept the Word, and then it will happen. Praise to all on this BBS board who are being themselves, and staying open minded. I am not better or worse than anyone because of what my beliefs are in regards to Christ. God doesn't set up power structure, or "tiers" of goodness among people based on their religious label. He is all knowing, all loving, all accepting, and sent His only Son to die at our hands becuase he wanted Jesus to have a chance to speak His Holy Word. Would you lay your son to certain death for anyone or anything? I wouldn't. I can't even comprehend having that much love for someone - but that's how great God is. Wow this ended up being long. Keep tearing out those pages - Manson and giving them to the people!! "You should be ashamed of what you have damned!" The OPPRESSIVE Christians are the Niggers!!!! We are not all like that! P.S. - I think the Vatican sucks. It's a symbol of early opression and control from the onset of humanity. cwambliwinyan@hotmail.com "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-05-200109:28 AM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ jeez. i couldn't find this thing for days. i got scared that it had died. Have a few ethics questions you might answer.... How do you decide what is moral and not? My prof suggested tha one ask themselves these questions before deciding: 1) is it legal??? I personally don't ask that. lol. 2) Is it fair to all involved. yeah...i'm a sucker for other people's feelings. 3) how will it make me feel about myself? i have Jiminey Cricket sitting on my shoulder! 4) would you make the same decision 20 times? Further more..who has responsibility in an organization to set the moral codes? the leader? or the group as a whole? THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-05-200102:32 PM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Where do you go to school? I love the fact that a prof. is encouraging individuals to think instead of re-gurgitate the accepted so called mainstream"Christian" philosophy - which in fact has nothing to do with Jesus. He/she is a smart individual. I loved your questions!! 1. is it legal? I'm like you. I don't give a fuck if it's legal or not. The government makes the laws and they are all corrupt motherfuckers. They are not based on a spiritual center. 2. Is it fair to all involved? I am not an "authority" on the rightism of Christianity or any spiritual guidance group. I am one person with an opinion, and life experiences that have led me to make choices for myself. I am neither right or wrong. I am who I am and that's it. So that being said - I'll go on. Is it fair? That's a question I struggle with. When someone in my church is being an asshole and treating people with disrespect, or ignoring the teachings of Christ and putting their personal agenda first at the expense of the suffering and weak, I don't care if I hurt their feelings while standing up to them. I'm only one person, so I can't say my opinion is always right. I like the idea of "discernment by concensus", which is achieved by a group through personal prayer, meeting, discussion, and internal openness to the guidings of the Spirit. Man fucks everything up so much with his selfish, personal agenda. The idea is that it should be fair to everyone involved - but that is often hard to achieve. That is a brilliant question. Rictus? Plastic Jesus? freegrace? 3. How will it make me feel about myself? I can't speak for anyone else, but for me when I seek the Truth and act on It, I feel inner peace and connectedness. 4. Would you make the same decision 20 times? God I love that question!! The theory is that we would. But thankfully, we are not machines. "This isn't me - I'm not mechanical" - M.M. We are human, and fucking up is part of our nature. That is the beauty of the human struggle, and what keeps us growing. Lay me in my grave the day I stop changing and learning. Sometimes I get pissed, and don't do the right thing. I have weaknesses, and give in to them often. That doesn't damn me. That is the woman God created me to be. Even sin can result in good. That last question is also great! Who has the responsibility in an org. to set the moral code? The leader? The indiv.? The group? That's exactly where our culture has fucked things up. I believe we are smart enough to think for ourselves, and should not rely on a leader, indiv., or group to discern the word of GOd, purpose, and meaning of God in our life. Being part of a group is helpful, but we are all individuals, and God created us differently for a reason. I am capable of reading the New Testament, and descerning the words of Christ. I don't need a priest. When I feel weak, friends can help restore me to sanity when I want to blow my brains out - but that doesn't mean I then rely on them to discern the word of God for me. I believe that acceptance of differences is imperative for creating a positive force. Understanding differences in people, styles, and agenda is imperative. I believe conformity is destructive and limiting. I am only one person - everyone needs to find their own truth. "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-05-200103:21 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think anything that violates someone's personal rights and freedoms is immoral. Everything else is fair game. Morality is subjective. - Mike Sorrow - posted 02-05-200103:26 PM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 yup ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree. I don't believe that any one group can claim the "rights" to godliness. Morality is truly subjective. "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-05-200103:29 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Welcome BeautifulDEATH and hello to all my other friends ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BeautifulDEATH...It is good to see you. I am very interested in your thoughts (although I must admit that I disagree with many of them--I would consider myself to be a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible). I definitely agree that too many Christians do not live the way Christ called them to. What denomination is the church you teach at. Are you familiar with the Jesus Seminar? What are your opinions on it? Your views seem very similar. Do you believe Jesus was divine as well as human? How do you choose which words Jesus really said and we should follow and which ones we shouldn't? For instance, Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else. He also spoke of the fact that those who do not believe in Him are condemned in John 3:16-18, "16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." You say that Christians should do more of what Jesus said but you disagree with some of His words. You probably will say that those words really didn't come from Christ's lips. How do we decide what did or did not? Isn't someone equally able to say the same thing about the Golden Rule? Nevertheless, It's great to have you on the thread and breath a little life into it. Rictus...How's it going buddy? You cold in England? Texas is nice and warm. I don't even need a jacket. A good friend of mine was going to go there, but he decided to go to Italy instead. Prarie, I haven't forgotten you. I'm up to my ears in homework right now and I just came in from out of town. Devilmunchkin...Great Questions Rosa, where are you? Long time no see. Hey Mike Sorrow. My favorite Mad Scientist. It's good to see you here. Manson actually did talk about Rose. Do you think it was because of your letter?;) Well, I'm off to take a jog. Catch y'all later...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 02-05-2001 at 08:01 PM.] posted 02-05-200107:47 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Too many pages to read through. What's the gist of the argument so far?... ------------------ "I kick ass for the Lord!" posted 02-05-200108:21 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Not really an argument ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just a discussion between some Christians, atheists, scientists, a devilmunchkin who uses her knowledge of the Old Testament to stump me, a Rictus (whose views are similar to New Age but I don't want to label him), and Prarie who likes to give me a hard time...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-05-200108:39 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Freegrace: Yes it's very cold!!! I hope you're enjoying texas. @BeautifulDEATH: I'm going to have a go at devilmunchkins q's, but I wanted to ask if you are aware of Gnostic Christianity, and if so, how you feel it relates to your beliefs. I like and agree 100% about what you had to say regarding the individual, and the need to descern one's own truth. This point of view actually sounds anarchistic in nature. Do you think that's fair? @Mike: Yup. that's how I define morality. Sucsinct as ever, thankyou. @Devilmunchkin: Great q's, and ones we should all have probably asked and answered much earlier. OK, here goes... 1) is it legal??? Irrelivent to me, except in terms of punishment. I don't believe the lawmakers to have moral integrity, so I don't feel the need to respect their laws, unless I can validate them on an individual basis with my own sensibilities/beliefs. 2) Is it fair to all involved? Yes, this criteria is important to me. Fairness means justice, however. There's basically two sides to my approach to people. The first is to start from a point of respect. The second is to treat others as they treat me. 3) how will it make me feel about myself? Now that's odd. I've actually never thought about morality in these terms, at least not conciously. Wow. Yet it must have an effect. When I do something to help someone out, it's a buzz, I feel good about my self (which meens I don't help people for altruistic reasons - I do it for self-gratification, which is selfish). So... See, freegrace, this is what I mean by man being inherrently good, the natural impuse to reach out to those in need and help them, and the way we feel good when we do so. Damn, I'm all excited now! Thankyou devilmunchkin! 4) would you make the same decision 20 times? Haha! Almost never, 'cause I'm a contrairy so-and-so, and curiosity/boredom/hubris would always lead me to fuck up at least once, just to see what would happen. But I'm with beautiful on this, it doesn't matter, fucking up is part of being human, and I think being human is mandetory. Great stuff all, you are all wonderful!!!! Me. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-06-200102:31 AM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 good morning, friends ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm on the east coast - and we have 24 inches of snow on the ground!! It'll take me 3 hours so shovel out - ugh. School is cancelled, so I get to stay home - yippie! freegrace - nice to talk with you. Are you preaching at a church now? Is that naked angel a picture of you? Good questions. My best friend is a strict fundamentalist, and also a rascist - and we've had many a go at each others beliefs. I've discovered that my love for her is greater than my desire to hate her for believing in something I don't agree with. So engaging in discussion is a wonderful thing - and I am not someone who will be hurt or threatened by challenging questions. It's helpful and healthy to open each others minds to theories and challenges that haven't occured to us yet. Do I believe Jesus was divine as well as human? Yes I do. I do believe that he had a woman friend, though. The rumor is that he was tapping Magdeline. Typical women to become aggrivated and jealous over a man. What do you think? How do I choose which words Jesus really said and we should follow and which one's we shouldn't. One knows the difference between opression, and justice. Like I said before - I am only one person and my opinion in one that has worked for me. I guess the reason for it's growth in this way is because I have seen so many "Christians" twisting the Words to their personal advantage. When this occurs, it's no longer the Will of God. I read the NIV bible with Jesus's words in red. His words are often diluted by the prophets due to the culture and societal structure at the time. I believe one of the prophets was a woman, but the men of the time would not allow that to be known, so wrote them all as a man. Which if any, do you belive might have been a woman? Back to the ?. I pray - look inward, face my innermost fears, confess sins, and beg for discernment and guidance. My resulting will is most assuredly tainted with humanness - but I do the best I can at the time. God knows this. As I grow older, I get better at it. That's why I believe I will not be damned for bad choices - but see these as lessons on the road to ulitmate acceptance in heaven. Rictus- No - I've never heard of Gnostic Christianity. What is it? Tell me more? Would you really describe my beliefs as Anarchistic? They may be a little bit. That may not be a bad thing. Sid Viscious rocked. I don't believe in harming or limiting others for my own beliefs, though, and that occurs in Anarchy. I'm off to feed my girls breakfast and shovel snow. Until later. Feel my love for you, friends. "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-06-200105:23 AM Plastic Jesus Member 2733 Posts Member since: 06-19-2000 Finally I have something new to say again... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Okay so this is to freegrace. You've said that abortion is wrong because of what the Bible says about it (correct me if I'm mistaken but I'm pretty sure that's how you think). Well...what if that's just misinterpreting the Bible? What if abortion is in fact biblical? I'm going to post an article now and I hope you read it and comment on it. Just keep in mind that the writer is in fact Christian. Just not in the usual sense.. The article is rather long but I think people who take time to post to this thread have gotten used to long posts anyway... (url: http://elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html ) quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the "Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions. With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right? Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context. This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms: "For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." Psalm 139:13-16 Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed. But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical. Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being contradicted by other verses. Similarly, some verses that make perfect sense while standing alone take on a different feel when seen in the greater context in which they were written. And we can do some rather bizarre things to the Scriptures when we take disparate verses from the same context and use them as stand-alone doctrinal statements. Some prime examples of this come from the same book of the Bible as our last quote. Consider these verses that claim that God has abandoned us: "Why dost Thou stand afar off, O Lord? Why dost Thou hide Thyself in times of trouble?" Psalm 10:1 "How long, O Lord? Wilt Thou forget me forever? How long wilt Thou hide Thy face from me?" Psalm 13:1 "O God, Thou hast rejected us. Thou hast broken us; Thou hast been angry; O, restore us. Psalm 60:1 Not only can we use out-of-context verses to support that God doesn't care for us anymore, we can even use them to show how we can ask God to do horrible and vile things to people we consider our enemies. In this example, King David even wanted God to cause harm to the innocent children of his enemy: "Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children." Psalm 109:8-12 Are we indeed to interpret that God, speaking through David in these Psalms, is saying we have been abandoned by God and that when wronged we can ask God to cause our enemies to die and cause our enemies' children to wander hungry and homeless? Indeed, it would seem the case. But rather than interpret that God is with us as a fetus, but forgets us as adults, and yet will allow us to plead for the death of our enemies, we need to look at the greater context in which all these verses are found: songs. Called Psalms, these are the songs of King David, a man of great faith who was also greatly tormented. He was a man of passions. He loved God, lusted for another man's wife, and murdered him to get her. He marveled at nature and at his own existence. All his great swings in emotion are recorded in the songs he wrote, and we can read them today in the Book of Psalms. What we cannot do is take one song, or one stanza of a song, and proclaim that it is indeed to be taken literally while taking other stanzas from David's songs and claim they should not be taken literally. Yet that is exactly what anti-abortion Christians are asking us to do. They use those few verses from the Psalms to support their dogma that abortion is wrong. They proclaim those verses as holy writ and the other verses as poetry that we should not be following. Clearly, this is a perfect example of taking verses out of context. And it leads us to only one conclusion: if we cannot trust that God wants to kill our enemies and abandon us, we must also conclude that we cannot trust that God has defined the fetus as being a person. For indeed, if we allow that kind of thinking we could also make an argument that God is willing to maul children to death if they make fun of a bald guy who just happens to be in God's favor. You think I'm joking, but I'm not. In the book of Second Kings, our hero, the Prophet Elisha, who was quite bald, so it seems, was taunted by a group of young boys. Elisha's response was bitter and cruel: "...as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:22-24 Did God kill those forty-two kids for making fun of a bald prophet? We can certainly make an argument for that if we use the anti-abortionists' kind of thinking. Likewise we can also use the anti-abortionists' methods to establish that God approves of pornography, as seen in these following verses by Solomon as he pondered the female body: "How beautiful are your feet in sandals, O prince's daughter! The curves of your hips are like jewels, the work of the hands of an artist. Your navel is like a round goblet which never lacks for mixed wine; your belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle." "Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I said 'I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit stalks.' Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine." Song of Solomon 7:1-3,7-9 Pretty steamy stuff. Taken by itself, it would appear God is indeed promoting a written form of pornography. But just like Psalm 139:13-16, we cannot take it by itself. Instead we must take it within the context it was written. The same is true with the other two verses used by anti-abortion Christians to defend their cause. From the book of Jeremiah, these Crusaders are fond of quoting the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee," from the first chapter. But they never quote the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably: "Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant." Jeremiah 1:4-10 This is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms. But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. God saw Jeremiah in that way, but to claim it applies to all of us is akin to saying that we were all prepared as children to speak for God, and that God has placed all of us "over the nations and over the kingdoms" of the world. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not; therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives. Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly. The last verse most often quoted by anti-abortion Christians relates the story of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, while both were pregnant. When they meet, the pre-born John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb at Mary's salutation. Let's read the original: "And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" Luke 1:39-41 As much as the anti-abortion lobby would like this to mean that all fetuses are sentient persons because one is recorded as knowing Mary's words and then leapt inside the womb, the logic is as flawed as the Isaiah misquote. Again we have a miraculous event. Again we have a divine prophet whom God had ordained since before he was conceived. And this time it's even more miraculous, because the gestating John the Baptist is reacting to the approach of Mary, who at the time was pregnant with Jesus. Unless we believe all of us are chosen before birth to be the divine prophet ordained by God to herald the arrival of Christ on earth, then we cannot claim this passage refers to us. And indeed, it does not. While gestating fetuses are known to move and kick as their nervous systems and muscles are under construction, only divinely-inspired babies understand the spoken words of the mother of Jesus and can leap in recognition. The point to all this is simple: we cannot take the verses we like and interpret them to support what we want to support. And, more to the point, we cannot simply accept what some Christian leaders proclaim as being God's word on a given subject without carefully reading the full text of the book and taking into consideration the entire context. We cannot, as we have shown, simply interpret those few verses from Psalms, Isaiah, and Luke as a reason to be against abortion. And, as we will see in a moment, there are still other verses -- if interpreted in the sloppy manner demonstrated by anti-abortion Christians -- in the Bible that could easily lead us to argue that indeed God, at times, supports abortion. Let's take a look. In the full context of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon makes the point that much of life is futile. Over and over he writes that if life is good then we should be thankful. But when life is not good, Solomon makes some interesting statements: "If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'" Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 Clearly there is a quality of life issue being put forth in the Scriptures. And in this case, Solomon makes the point that it is sometimes better to end a pregnancy prematurely than to allow it to continue into a miserable life. This is made even more clear in these following verses: "Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 Here we have an argument for both euthanasia and abortion. When quality of life is at stake, Solomon seems to make the argument that ending a painful life or ending what will be a painful existence is preferable. Now remember, we're not talking about David's songs here. We're reading the words of the man to whom God gave the world's greatest wisdom. And Solomon was not alone in this argument. Consider the words of Job, a man of great faith and wealth, when his life fell upon the hardest of times: "And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness; let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'" "Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master." Job 3:2-4,11-19 And again a few chapters later Job reiterates the greater grace he would have known if his life had been terminated as a fetus: "Why then hast Thou brought me out of the womb? Would that I had died and no eye had seen me! I should have been as though I had not been, carried from womb to tomb." Job 10:18-19 Clearly there is a strong argument here that the quality of a life is as important if not more important than the act of being born. Indeed, we could claim that the Bible supports ending a pregnancy in the face of a life without quality. And, if I wanted to be bold, I could claim that this interpretation is in fact a biblical mandate to support the use of abortion as a way to improve our quality of life. And taking these verses to their extreme, I could claim that abortion is not just a good idea, it is a sacrament. Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and decide for themselves the meanings therein. For indeed, there is one passage in the Bible that deals specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to believe: "And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25 This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death. It's important to note that some anti-abortion lobbyists want to convince us the baby in this passage survived the miscarriage. They point to the more "politically-correct" translation they find in the New International Version of the Bible. There it translates the term "miscarriage" into "gives birth prematurely" (the actual words in Hebrew translate "she lose her offspring"). While this may give them the warm and fuzzy notion that this verse might actually support their cause if maybe the child survived, it is wishful thinking at best. In our modern era of miracle medicine only 60% of all premature births survive. Three thousand years ago, when this passage was written, they did not have modern technology to keep a preemie alive. In fact, at that time, more than half of all live births died before their first birthday. In a world like that, a premature birth was a death sentence. Others have looked to the actual Hebrew words, themselves, to try and refute these verses. They note that the word "yalad" is used in verse 22 to describe the untimely birth, and that yalad is also used in other places to describe a live birth. They then go on to say other places in the Bible use the words "nefel" and "shakol" to describe a miscarriage. Therefore, the argument goes, the baby in Exodus 21:22 must have been born alive. It's easy to see how a novice might make this mistake, but a closer look at the words in question reveal the flaw in this argument. The word yalad is a verb that describes the process of something coming out - the departing of the fetus. Since it is describing the process, and not the result, it could be used to describe either a live birth or a miscarriage. Shakol which shows up in Hosea 9:14, is also a verb, but its meaning is to make a woman barren. Now a barren woman certainly might miscarry, but with this understanding of the word, it's clear why the writer of Exodus would not have used it since this miscarriage was caused by an accident, not by barrenness. And the word nefel is not even a verb. It's a noun. True, as a noun it is the term for a miscarried fetus, but the writer wasn't using a noun. He was using a verb to describe the coming out of the fetus. Thus, if I were describing a man falling to his death, I would use the verb "to fall" which can be used for both those who die and those who survive a fall, but to describe the man himself I would use the word the "fatality." So we can see that while a novice might mistake a verb for a noun and come to the wrong conclusions about the original Hebrew words used in the Exodus passage, a more careful look proves that the words only describe the action of losing the fetus, not the fetus itself. And that being the case, we can't use the Hebrew translations to determine if the fetus was alive or not when it came out - so we are forced to accept that in all certainly, considering the medical knowledge at the time, the preemie died. This makes it even more clear that the "tooth for a tooth" passage refers only to the mother, not to the miscarried fetus. What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period. It is time to stop the one-sided view of abortion being proclaimed by Christian leaders. These leaders do not -- despite their claims -- have a biblical mandate for their theologies. It is time to stop preaching that the Bible contain an undeniable doctrine against abortion. It is time to stop the anger and hatred being heaped on abortion doctors and upon women who have abortions, especially when it's done in the name of a God who has not written such condemnations in his Bible. It is time to stop, because the act of making a judgment against people in God's name, when God is not behind the judging, is nothing short of claiming that our own beliefs are more important than God's. We must stop, because if we don't, then indeed the very type of theological argument being used against abortion can be turned around and used to proclaim that abortion is biblical. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ And when you're done with that I'd like to post a similar article about homosexuality. Oh, and the point why I'm posting these is to say that the Bible is all about interpreting (sp?) and therefore shouldn't be used as a book of "laws". If you have time I'd like you to comment on that thought, too. (again I haven't read even nearly everything you've been discussing here and this issue has probably been discussed already) Were the stories in the Bible even meant to be taken seriously? What if they were just stories that were meant to teach a lesson but along time people started thinking the stories are really true? Have you ever considered that could be the real "truth" behind the Bible? I'm done now, anxiously waiting for any replies... Thank you. ---------------------- "Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra The Plastic Jesus Cult plastic.jesus@antisocial.com Official Naked Runners Club: no.6 posted 02-06-200106:16 AM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 Plastic Jesus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for posting that! I love the article! Where did you get it? I want to get a copy. Can't wait for the next one about homosexuality. I agree with many of the points in it - as well as the ones you made. I believe the Bible is best used as a "guide", and one must read it with an open mind. Man is imperfect - thank God, and deviation from the written word is inevitable and expected. I'm new here - so haven't read many of your posts, but I have a feeling many of your theological views may be the same. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle posted 02-06-200111:18 AM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just wanted to say hi to everyone and thanks to Plastic Jesus for the article. - Mike Sorrow - posted 02-06-200103:48 PM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i'm still here... sorry to have neglected this lately, but what with little time & that boiling pasta water incident just lately.. anyway, this gives me 2 days off now with nothing much to do but sit at home... i'll try to catch up... posted 02-06-200104:08 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Welcome Back All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rosa and Plastic Jesus...A wholehearted welcome back. It is so good to see you. Rosa, when you get the time, I'd love to get more information on what you love so much about Trent Reznor and your reaction to many people's posts that the laws of a country should not be a standard for morality (I think that was a standard you discussed when we talked about the moral law question). Plastic Jesus, soon I plan to respond to Prarie's question about the bible, then I will cover the issue of abortion. Forgive me, but I'm pretty busy with school right now. Very interesting article you posted and I'd be more than happy to address the main points. Aside from the passage about the fetus in the Old Testament law, what would lead you to believe that life begins at birth? I can see how the article attemps to disprove the Christian position on abortion, but I see very little evidence to prove that abortion is biblical and right. Ironically, some of the verses they use are taken out of context as well. I have discussed the issue of homosexuality at length with Rosa on the previous thread (not this one). Here was my initial answer that was followed up by a lengthy discussion with Rosa: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is a copy of a post I made regarding Dr. Laura. You can refer here for the original discussion I was responding to: http://marilynmansonbbs.artistdirect.com/1b/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10019&f=371193081&m=604194063#498195063 Thanks for the information. I am signing out to go to sleep but I thought that you might want a response to the issues brought up in this letter. I am pretty sure nobody will agree with them but I post them nevertheless so that Christians are not accused of selective literalism. This points out the critical difference between Christianity and Judaism. If a Jew is consistent, as Dr. Laura should be, they are still required to be under the law. Consequently, as the letter writer points out, several things like playing football, not participating in the Sabbath are direct violations of the law and they should have to experience the consequences. The law was designed to demonstrate our need for Christ. Galatians 3:13-14 says,"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a cursefor us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on A TREE"-- 3:14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:23-26 says, "3:23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 3:24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Clearly as a result of Christ's blood shed on our behalf, those who share the faith of Jesus are not under the law. If your question is regarding homosexuality, the New Testament and Old Testament testify that it is wrong. There is not a single positive statement in God's word about it. For example 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says,"9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Timothy 1:10 says, " 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching" Clearly, homosexuality is put on the same level as murder, lying, drunkeness etc. Keep in mind that each of these tendencies can be inherited genetically (alcoholism, violence, etc) so that is not a reason to discount what the Bible says. However, as 1 Corinthians 6:11 points out, there is hope in the cleansing power of Christ. Heterosexual sin (fornication, adultery) is just as serious as homosexual and both can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BeautifulDeath...Regarding your question: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do believe that he had a woman friend, though. The rumor is that he was tapping Magdeline. Typical women to become aggrivated and jealous over a man. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What evidence do you have to substantiate this claim? The Gospel of Thomas? Yes, I am an Associate Pastor at a Baptist Church in Houston, TX. I do preach regularly. What denomination is your church again? No, I do not believe that Jesus had a relationship with Mary Magdeline. Without any evidence, that would be pure conjecture on my part. I would be no better than the National Enquirer for making up things that I was not present to see or have evidence from an eyewitness. Rictus...Good to see you. Keep warm in England. Hopefully, I'll get to the issue of Devilmunckin's questions. Incidentally, the Gnostics were actually declared heretics by the early church and several of the epistles were written to counteract their views. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-06-200110:12 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Additional posts on homosexuality ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atossa...I'm really short on time because I have a Greek quiz tomorrow and I am very behind in that class. I will be working all of Friday so I will try to respond on Saturday. In my opinion, the point about Abraham set the standard for salvation, but I will elaborate more. I don't know how else to answer the law question, my response to Dr. Laura seemed pretty definitive. As you know, the Greek concept of telos, or perfect completion/end, can be applied to the Old Testament law. Paul suggests that the purpose of the law was to bring all men to a realization that He cannot save Himself. It is not that the law was so imperfect, but humans are. The requirements of the law were so stringent, that no one could possibly comply with all of them. That coupled with the fact that the Pharisees and Saducees added to those requirements because they thought that the law made them righteous made the situation more cumbersome. The Bible says the law was a mirror that revealed our dirtiness, but it was never meant to take away our dirtiness. You can't clean your face with the mirror, but that is exactly what the Jews and current day Muslims are trying to do. The Christian accepts the revelation of the Old Testament of the law, but not the requirements of the law. In short, we see the law as a revelation of God's holy character. However, we are required to follow that which was taught in the New Testament (not to earn salvation but out of obedience to Christ's lordship) because the law was a shadow of the things to come (see my previous response to Rictus on circumcision). As I mentioned, we no longer sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of sins, because the ultimate sacrifice was made. Homosexuality is declared wrong in the Old Testament and the New Testament but the main message is the hope in the forgiveness of Christ. I am not selectively quoting from the Old Testament but also referring to the New Testament. As I mentioned before, heterosexual sin is also declared wrong (pre-marital sex, adultery) so the bible is not discriminatory. If a homosexual were to see my post, I would want to make sure that they are aware that God does not see the sin but the person. When I see a person who is a homosexual, I do not see him for his sin but a person that is in need of love. Incidentally, I do still keep in great contact with many of my friends who are homosexual (no, this is not a I have friends who are black to justify discrimination) and although we disagree I still love them unconditionally and I believe God does too. Whether you are bisexual or not, I still love you and I do not see you as less of a person. In conclusion, homosexuality is viewed as any other sin and homosexuals are not any worse of sinners than the rest of us. Because they are homosexuals should not prevent them from accepting God's free gift of eternal life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atossa...While at the gym I thought about what you said that there may be some young people who are struggling witht their sexuality who may be reading this site. In my discussions with homosexuals, I have found that very few would want to be that way and wish that they did not have this challenge. I want to let them know that there is hope. This is what I would want them to see about their struggle with homosexuality or any other sin. It is a perspective from two artists: This is your life here and in the afterlife if you continue in present sin: My Own Prison by Creed: A court is in session, a verdict is in No appeal on the docket today Just my own sin The walls are cold and pale The cage made of steel Screams fill the room Alone I drop and kneel Silence now the sound My breath the only motion around Demons cluttering around My face showing no emotion Shackled by my sentence Expecting no return Here there is no penance My skin begins to burn So I held my head up high Hiding hate that burns inside Which only fuels their selfish pride We're all held captive Out from the sun A sun that shines on only some We the meek are all in one I hear a thunder in the distance See a vision of a cross I feel the pain that was given On that sad day of loss A lion roars in the darkness Only he holds the key A light to free me from my burden And grant me life eternally Should have been dead On a Sunday morning Banging my head No time for mourning Ain't got no time So I held my head up high Hiding hate that burns inside Which only fuels their selfish pride We're all held captive Out from the sun A sun that shines on only some We the meek are all in one I cry out to God Seeking only his decision Gabriel stands and confirms I've created my own prison ------------------------------------------------------------ Here's the hope you have in Christ Go and Sin No More & Psalm 139 by Rebecca St. James I've sinned come on my knees, for I'm not worthy of Your love How could You die for me? Such grace could only come from God Oh Lord, You search and You know me, You see me inside out God, You alone can forgive me, erase my fear and my doubt Father You pick me up I feel likea child in Your arms I don't deserve this love but, I hear Your voice Lord Jesus Chorus: Go & sin no more He said "I will not condemn you, I'll forgive and I'll forget it all" Go & sin no more "My child let me remind you it is I who'll lead and guide you as you go" You are my purpose...You are the reason that I live I want to be like You...Help me to love and to forgive God let me not be distracted, Lord help me focus on You Keep sin from rulin my life Lord, make me holy and pure Father You pick me up I feel likea child in Your arms I don't deserve this love but, I hear Your voice Lord Jesus Chorus Wipe, wipe away Take, take away Break, break away Fill my life, make it right, Father help me, Father help me GO Chorus He said I will not condemn you, no" Go & sin no more "My child let me remind you it is I who'll lead and guide you as you GO" I've sinned come on my knees how could you die for me You search my heart, know my thoughts See me inside out and all throughout me You alone can forgive me You always pick me up, like a child in Your arms I could stay with You forever here (Repeat a few times) Psalm 139 You search me, You know me You see my every move There's nothing I could ever do To hide myself from You You know my thoughts, my feels and hurts My weaknesses and prides You know what I am going through And how I feel inside But even though You know You will always love me Even though You know You'll never let me go I don't deserve Your love But You give it freely You will always love me Even though You know You search me, You know me You see my every move There's nothing I could ever do To hide myself from You You know my thoughts, my feels and hurts My weaknesses and prides You know what I am going through And how I feel inside But even though You know You will always love me Even though You know You'll never let me go I don't deserve Your love But You give it freely You will always love me Even though You know Yes, You will always love me Even though You know ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-06-200110:18 PM MarilynMonroe Member 1046 Posts Member since: 06-14-2000 this is ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TOOO FUCKING LONG! START A NEW ONE! posted 02-06-200110:20 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 Hop to: Go |