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Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned!
Author Message
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Thanks, Rictus.
I wasn't involved on the old thread at all, so if you want to revive it, it makes no difference to me.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-15-200104:11 PM
Rosa_McGee
Member
841 Posts
Member since:
08-16-2000
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i havn't been involved too much lately, either, but i'd say, leave it... everybody can look it up & it's faster, too with fewer pages... we're on the 2nd one already anyway
posted 01-15-200104:16 PM
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Blatent bump!
Anyone else?
PS @Fregrace: Our mutual friend Mr. Order has been up to his old tricks. Try looking at his thread 'To the anachist idiots' if you get the time. i bumped it for you. He's great!
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
"No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos
[This message was edited by Rictus on 01-15-2001 at 08:10 PM.]
posted 01-15-200107:46 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
First to Rosa
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Let me say that I so appreciate your comments. You have no idea how sad I was on New Years Eve. You said I shouldn't have had to go through that but the answer is that I should have. In the midst of our disagreements, I often let my frustrations get the best of me and I neglected to say how much I truly cared about you as a person (I'm not just saying that I really mean it). We may disagree, but that does not mean we can't be friends. As I read your post, I reflected on the fact that I should have been more
As for your point, my question for Rictus, Plastic Jesus and yourself is that who should be the ultimate author of truth? If it is the individual than is there such a thing? I think that we often mistake truth for reality. We can have different realities but truth is not all the same. I think that the idea of relative morality seems nice until someone has a morality that is different than ours. For instance, the Old Testament speaks of certain religions who would put their kids in the fire as a sacrifice. We think that is pattently immoral but some hindu cultures even practice that today.
On the issue of Christianity being a conception. Because I believe that God is the ultimate determinant of truth, I trust what He says. But to be honest, there are some parts of Christianity that I would rather do without. I do not like the idea of hell and if truth were told I would rather that God did not have it. However, I cannot reconcile God's justice and mercy in any other real way. We all hope that there is a hell for everybody else other than us. If there is no punishment for sin, than it would make much more sense to go on and do what many others have done. The reason I don't take revenge when someone does something is that I leave that up to God. I say all of this to say, that I did not construct the God of Christianity because I am homophobic or elitist. I take Him as He is. However, I want to steer away from making Him into something he's not. For me to dismiss the notion of hell would require me to dismiss what Jesus said. For me to dismiss what He said would require me to accuse Him of lying. To accuse Him of lying would require that I no longer find Him sinless. To say He is sinful would eliminate the idea of Him being morally perfect which disqualifies Him from being God.
I know this will all sound like rubbish. I guess I just want to say welcome back and you're always welcome to express yourself as freely as you want and know that you are loved here. Hopefully both of us will be able to restrain ourselves from getting too emotionally charged about this matter. I love you always and I hope you can find encouragement from me in the future instead of frustration.
Your friend...Freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200108:22 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
I'd rather leave it the way it is
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The title of the old thread was not as good as this one. Plus, we have a lot of new people. If they want to read the old stuff they can. Rictus, I will now begin to start addressing your points (this may take a while)...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200108:24 PM
Prairie Nigger
Member
1359 Posts
Member since:
11-01-2000
a blatant provocation
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You mentioned in an earlier post that you trust god's word. What has God told you? And where have you read this?
posted 01-15-200108:31 PM
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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@Prairie: That is a blatent provocation!
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
"No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos
posted 01-15-200108:32 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Prarie and Rictus
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Prarie...I'm not ignoring your statement or Mike Sorrow's or Devilmunchkin's. I am trying to hit one issue at a time. I will get to this point. However, I have been promising Rictus that I would address his previous points for weeks. I will come back to this at a later time but probably not tonight. Not trying to provoke anything. Just stating what I believe...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200108:44 PM
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Hi, Freegrace. I'm sure it's annoying answering such a barrage of questions so take your time. Please. Don't go crazy trying to legitimize your faith to anyone but yourself.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-15-200108:50 PM
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Amen Mike.
take your time buddy. We're all friends here.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
"No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos
posted 01-15-200108:55 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Rictus
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Let me begin by commending you on your powerfully worded statement. Like Rosa, I applaud you for your way of expressing something you feel strongly about. Like you said, my primary purpose here is not necessarily to persuade but discuss. My primary goal is to destroy the sterotype that all Christians are illogical and unloving (especially the unloving part).
Do you agree that the nature of truth is exclusive?
In terms of your prayer, Martin Buber argues that the relationship with God is an I-thou relationship. However, it appears that the concept you are expressing is as much I-I as I thou. If you are part of God, what is the point of prayer? If God is love, who did He love before creation? Your view does not seem to have unity and diversity in the first cause? Did God exist before His creation?
I believe that every religion should be able to address the following issues:
1. Origin of man
2. Condition of man
3. Salvation of man
4. Destiny of man
How do you believe that your view answers these questions?
Ravi Zacharias, who is one of my favorite philosophers, argues for the following presuppositions of New Age (I realize that you are not necessarily New Age, but your views are similar):
1. New Age is the most powerful expression of Western man's realization that secularism leads to emptiness.
**Incidentally, I think that there is no greater expression than what is often found here on the bbs. Look at how many suicide post topics come up every night. I know that Devilmunchkin is an existentialist. Have you seen the biographies of Sart, Camu and many others? Not exactly happy stories.
2. Man knows that he needs a transcendent view of things.
**I think that many are realizing that science alone does not provide all the answers.
3. Man recognizes the necessity of moral order and spiritual sustenance.
**Rosa, on the previous thread, I think you agreed on the need for a moral law. What do you base that on? We know that the minute we give up a moral law or make that relative, we open ourselves to anarchy but few people want a moral law that controls them but wish instead others would adhere to their law. Is anything wrong with anything? How do we define right and wrong objectively (Rictus, I'm saying to go beyond the notion of getting in touch with our instincts).
4. He finds Christianity too costly and threatening a way.
5. New age is a way for him to have his spiritual cake and physical fulfillment too.
First, let me say that I hate that expression. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Why would I not want to have my cake and eat it too? Does that mean that I want to still have a cake after I have eaten it? Nevertheless, I see evidences of your view that it allows you to have a spiritual experience yet not ascribe to a moral law. I think on the previous thread you said something like Religion is for people who are too scared to determine their morality for themselves (not quoting directly).
In sum, yes Rictus, we all have to draw our conclusions at one point. You are committed to yours and I mine. This will not be settled by a debate but I do believe that better knowledge of eachother's beliefs leads to mutual understanding, appreciation and love of another person. Do you agree with this portrayal of your views by Dr. Zacharias. If not, what do you agree with and disagree with? By the way, did you see that Adolph Gandhi is still working on the drug problem? Good news. I'll miss him here...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200109:12 PM
Rictus
Member
3203 Posts
Member since:
06-05-2000
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Freegrace: Thankyoy thankyou thankyou!!! This is great, I look forward to responding soon (not tonight though, I must sleep!).
I agree understanding breeds respect, tollerance and love. All things worth having. I am pleased about Adolph. I hope he returns under a different name at some point.
Thankyou again, for your time and thought.
Your friend
Rictus.
"All the drugs in this world
Won't save her from herself..."
"Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love)
"No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos
posted 01-15-200109:19 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Mike Sorrow...On the issue of hell
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In sum, the common assumption is that eternal destiny is based on good works. That is not, in my opinion the standard and this was my answer on the previous thread stating why:
quote:
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Atossa and Rictus...I really appreciate the interaction you provided. I often am at work or studying so I apologize if I am not around much to interact with you.
The best I can describe my beliefs is by pointing to the movie the Matrix. It is one of my favorite movies. This world has been greatly deceived by an evil force that has bound them in a dreamworld. I like when Morpheus says, "I know exactly what you mean. You look like a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that is not far from the truth. The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth that you are a slave Neo. Like everyone else you were born into a prison that you cannot smell or taster or touchâ?|A prison for your mind." Sin enslaves us and is a continuous addiction. It has damaged the way life is supposed to be.
In contrast to Rictus, I believe that man is naturally evil. Just drive down the freeway in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York during rushhour and it will become readily apparent by how often you get cut off, flipped off, etc. Atossa, the atrocities in Nazi Germany, Ruwanda, Bosnia, etc are an illustration of that fact. I do not believe that the good guy always wins out on earth. Sin in my opinion is anything we do that displeases God. We can sin in our words, thoughts, actions, in what we do or what we fail to do. As you can see the average person sins hundreds of times a day. How often do we fail to help someone in need, or have an impure action or hurt people. Even if someone only sinned 3 times a day, that would still be a thousand sins in a year and in an average lifetime that would be 74,000 sins. I can't imagine a traffic judge letting off someone with 74,000 traffic tickets, because they didn't mean to do it. Even if he did, that would mean that he was an unjust judge.
Because I believe that man is naturally evil, I do not believe that anyone deserves to go to heaven. Romans 3:23-24 says, "23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." I believe that heaven is a free gift. The Bible says that heaven is a place where we worship God for eternity. Eternal church does not sound like a great place to many people. However, the way I picture it is imagine one of the greatest moments you ever had that you never wanted to leave (e.g. your first kiss, your best day, when you were in an amazing place in nature). I believe that the God that created those moments is even more amazing than the moments and as we experience him fully we will enjoy those moments and Him for eternity. However, compulsive worship is no fun for anyone, so even heaven would be hell for someone who really didn't believe in God or appreciate the gift of His son.
Hell is a place where good is not present. Those who have rejected God and dreamed of a world without Him will get exactly what they asked for. Romans 1:18-25, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." If you've seen "Life is Beautiful" it appears that even in the death camps there was goodness and light. In hell there is only darkness. Like living in the Matrix, I believe that hell is a choice. I believe that hell was not a place that was created for man, but the devil and his demons. However, men have chosen that they would prefer to worship there so God will not stop them from making that decision. I do not believe hell is eternal because God is not merciful, but because man is eternally unrepentant. If we could not believe in Him on earth where there is so much evidence of His love even though the world is marred by sin, why would anyone believe in Him if they are in a world with no truth but only lies?
Some people ask, "Why would God send a good person to hell?" In and of themselves, I do not believe that anyone is good and we send ourselves to hell. Thus far the message may sound pretty hopeless, but actually there is quite a bit of hope. Let's return to the traffic judge. If I had seventy four thousand traffic tickets, the judge could not declare me not guilty or that would violate His justice. A violation of the law, whether someone is sorry or not or made ammends, is not an excuse to be declared not guilty in any court. However, what if the judge declared us guilty and paid the fines for us? That would be a truly merciful act, yet it would preserve the judges' justice. I hear of a lot of people who speak of the love of God but few who speak of His justice. The only time they speak of His justice is when they're talking about someone else. If there is no punishment for sins, than why don't we treat everyone like crud? Everyone believes that people like Hitler should not go to heaven, but they neglect to acknolwedge the evil that is in the heart of every man. The Bible says, in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." In giving of His Son, God paid the debt that we could no longer pay. Our only job is to accept the gift he offerred. What if someone offerred to pay your debt of 1 trillion dollars, but you turned it down, because you'd prefer to pay in monthly installments of $2? That would be insane, just as it is not just to believe that our good acts can make up for our sins against God and others.
How is the gift received? I believe it is by faith. Eph 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not on our own works. I often hear how could a loving God do X, but we are the ones who mistreated Him and only He can determine what will allow Him to maintain His mercy and justice. The rescuers of the Titanic are not criticized for the number of people that died at sea, but the number of people who lived as a result of their saving act. As far as other religions, I believe there are only two: Christianity and Manianity. All other religions teach that we get to heaven by our own good deeds. Christianity is the only religion that teaches that we get to heaven by the generosity of God. The area of Religion is the only study in which people believe sincerity is a symbol of truth. No matter how sincere someone is about a scientific hypothesis, it must be true to be valid.
Atossa, yes it is awfully painful to believe in a system that my parents do not believe in and could have eternal consequences for them. Truth hurts and Christianity has often been more painful than my time as a skeptic. However, as you said pain is not a reason to deny truth. Like the Matrix, I have decided to swallow the red pill. I do not choose to see this world in which people are enslaved by their addictions through rosie colored glasses. Rather than being part of the problem, I desire to be part of the solution. If I choose to reject God for the sake of my parents, than neither of our eternal destinies are secure. If I choose to accept Him, God will empower me to be a witness to them. The power of Christ is not that He takes the pain away, but He gives us hope in the midst of it. Pyne offers a great point at how Christâ?™s life sufferings can give hope, "It is true that Jesus knew His sufferings would be temporary and that He would soon be restored to glory. However, it is not true that our own sufferings are utterly pointless and absurd. A high view of the providence of God affirms that all things ultimately have purpose, even evil acts which appear to be completely senseless. Jesusâ?™ sufferings serve as a model for us, not simply because He experienced pain, but because He experienced hope in the midst of pain." This is a truly powerful statement. It points to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith as a person who not only understands our pain, but also can provide the truth that provides hope in the midst of it.
Rictus, let's get back to your question that I promised to answer. The Bible says that Jesus did not come to the world to condemn you but to save you. John 3:16-19 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
I can not say definitively you are going to hell. Jonah 1 says, "And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown! 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them...8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." It appears that in the story of Jonah, the prophet was given a message of certainty but His mercy spared Ninevah judgment. I hope that hell is not real and all will be in heaven. However, I cannot live on a hope that I do not see in God's word. Therefore, I choose to live by what I believe God to say now rather than speaking for God because I may not like everything He says. For people who already believe they are going to heaven, this message may not seem very hopeful. However, I minister to gang members and prisoners who have already committed many crimes that they would consider would disqualify them from heaven. I now see why Jesus spent His time with the tax collector and prostitutes, because they didn't consider themselves to be righteous. They gladly accepted the fact that God would grant them eternal life by faith and He could change them into the person they always dreamed of being. I know that my life was not worth of eternal life, so one night I prayed to accept Christ's offering on my behalf, I asked for His forgiveness, and I turned from my sins to live for Him. Once again, without absolute certainty because God may be willing to give others a chance after they die, I would say that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will not go to heaven. If that includes you, I can only answer from what I know but I cannot judge. My hope and prayer is that you will choose not to reject the offer Christ gives you and for this reason I do as John did, "13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Before you is a red and a blue pill. I can not choose for you. The choice is yours. We must all choose whether we accept life in the Matrix of sin's deception or we choose truth and freedom. I hope I have not hurt your feelings.
I realize these thoughts will not be popular here, but I feel like I would be dishonest by not answering your questions. Sorry for the long post...freegrace
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God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200109:23 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Mike Sorrow...On the issue of evolution
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This is what I've had to say in the past. The fact that there is not a single evidence of a fossil in a transitory state (e.g. an ape with wings or a fish with legs) means that the theory of evolution requires a great deal of faith to believe in. The fact that there is little real evidence to support it in my view makes it totally inadequate to be labeled as a theory. Especially when you consider that entropy requires that molecules lead to maximum randomness NOT organization. Not to mention that it is statisticall impossible. Here is some of my quotes on the matter from the past:
quote:
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The idea of the big bang theory and evolution seem to be virtually statistically impossible. In my opinion, they are a result of a humanistic attempt to disprove God. That is why I say that perceptions define people's realities (even mine). After discovering the extremely complex DNA, co Nobel prize winner Crick and Watson set out to define the probability of a DNA molecule arising spontaneously over the course of 4.6 billion years. It was practical zero. However, this did not stop their humanistic tendencies. They devised a scenario called directed panspermia which basically says that an advance race of beings from a far off planet planted the DNA that later led to life. Fred Hoyle from Cambridge tried to calculate the possibility of an entire cell originating not simply on earth but anywhere in the universe. Mathematics says that anything with less than 1 in 10 to the 50th power is basically at zero possibility. They found that the probability of this happening was over 1 in 10 to the 40,000th possibility! He said, "If a tornado went through a junkyard, creating a functional 747 [airplane],...that would be childplay by comparison!" Hoyle, a non-Christian came to this conclusion, "The fact that life exists anywhere in the universe, can only be explained by the pre-existance of some gigantic intelligence which, if you wish, you may call God."
I guess what I mean shatazer is that there is more evidence for design than chance. As the 747 statement points out, I can't imagine anything else as magnificent as our world that happened by chance. Science usually rests on evidence.
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quote:
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I do not agree that faith goes hand in hand with ignorance. For instance Sir James Jeans, a famous mathematician once said that "The universe appears to have been designed by a Pure Mathematician."
The slant of the earth, for example, tilted at 23 degrees produces our seasons. Scientists tell us that if the earth were not tilted exactly as it is, vapors from the oceans would move north and south, piling up continents of ice.
If the earth were only 50,000 miles away from the earth instead of 200,000, the tides might be so enormous that all continents would be submerged in water.
If the crust of the earth had been only ten feet thicker, there would be no oxygen, and without it animal life would die.
To what do you attribute this apparent design? Chance? Keep in mind, I am not trying to persuade you, I just cannot understand how anyone can look at this glorious creation and not see God. Science tells us that there must be a cause for these things (I forget what law that is). What would it be?
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quote:
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I am positing two things. First, unlike any kind of chaos theory, I am arguing for the work of a mathematician and an artist. The order alone is substantial evidence for a first cause. Keep in mind, that entropy points out that matter always tends to maximum randomness (i.e. disorder, chaos). However, in some way the earth and the universe is held together. The reason I don't support the notion of chance is because the world is entirely too complex. As a point of analogy, two Yugos crashing together do not create a Ferrarri Testarosa (forgive my poor spelling). If a car which is much less complicated requires complex design, how much more should the universe? One point I'd raise is the fingerprint. Each human being has an individual identifier that separates him/her from anybody else. This level of individualism does not occur by chance and evolutionary theory does not seem to have an explanation for it (the best they can do is say that the fingerprint was used for allowing humans to grip certain substances better). As for the question of why a God would care about insignificant people like us, that is what makes Him so amazing. He loves us individually and gave us a sign that we can look at every day.
I believe that beauty is the argument for an artist. I have travelled to many places and I am always amazed at how beautiful the world can be. A sunrise is more amazing than some of the best works of art in museums. I stand corrected, the universe is as beautiful if not more beautiful than the world. It still makes my point for me. A scientist and an artist...sounds a little bit like you Mr. Chaos (although I am not insinuating that you created the world).
Once again, I am not setting out to prove Christianity or God. I am just saying that it is not inherantly illogical to believe in one. The evidence in my opinion supports intelligent design much more than chaos theory. Furthermore, the statistics point out to me that it takes as much if not more faith to believe in the Big Bang then God. Humans cling tightly to a theory that has been demonstrated to be impossible not because of the evidence but because of their faith. The point that if the earth tilted in a different way, humans would still evolve shows me faith in spite of evidence to the contrary.
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freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200109:33 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Mike Sorrow and Rictus
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Thanks for understanding. It doesn't annoy me at all to answer all these questions. I think that one of the greatest knocks against Christians is that they can't explain why they believe as they do. Rictus, I'm on my way to bed as well. You must be wiped out over there on England's time. Sorry I made you wait so long.
Prarie and Devilmunchkin, I haven't forgotten. I will get to those issues soon (hopefully this week but if not, next week). That Devilmunchkin...she knows too much about the Old Testament! grrr...she's got a lot of ammo. Hey that Baylor religion class served one good purpose other than giving you the chance to write a paper on Brian Warner. LOL. Just kidding, you know I love you Devilmunchkin and I'm glad to see you here. Say hi to Nihilist for me. I was sad to see he might not be around here much any more. By the way Prarie, just so you don't feel left out, I love you too my friend. I did respond to your thread about the relevance of Christianity.
Good night all. Sweet dreams...freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200109:41 PM
freegrace
Member
945 Posts
Member since:
10-31-2000
Before I leave
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Mike Sorrow, why is your name Mike Sorrow? I think it would be great if you would copy the evolution of your theology on here. That was a great thread and I am not sure if everyone got to see it.
Veronique, why Rosa_Mcgee? Any reason for the change? What did Atossa mean and why do you no longer go by that name?
Freegrace
God is crazy about you.
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning.
Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you!
posted 01-15-200109:43 PM
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Freegrace, you said how the world is a matrix. I view it the opposite. Science is more cruel to accept. When you die, that's it. Nothing left. Nada. But if you accept the blue pill (religion), then you are saved and get a free ride to eternal happiness. That is why the Matrix argument works to the advantage of science. Because when one accepts religion, they blind themselves to the horrible truth that we have but one life to live. The Matrix was essentially a good place compared to the outside truth. Why then would people choose an depressing option where they believe they have one short life, when they could choose an uplifting option and be favored with eternal happiness? In short, why choose unhappiness over happiness? The only reason is to give in and accept the evidence without the blinders.
As for hell, I also believe that people are inherently bad, but that still leaves everyone on an even playing field. Whether you look at it where everyone is good or everyone is evil, everyone has an equal opportunity to enter heaven. Given the even playing field, if one person commits 74,000 sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour, they go to heaven. Now, if a different person commits 74,000 sins and declines to commit to Jesus Christ, that essentially means that they are ignorant to the truth. Does that ignorance justify eternal misery to the other man's eternal happiness? One sin committed against God requires a man to feel eternal pain and depression. Given what I call the "just and merciful" clause in the Bible, that doesn't seem very "just" to me. One could argue that God offered the chance for redemption, but why then could God not save this ignorant man? Does ignorance merit dystopia? I call it ignorance because if the man knew of God and Jesus Christ, he would obviously accept them and their truth. And if one act of ignorance does merit eternal damnation, is that "just and merciful"?
Also, when talking to Rictus, you said that you minister criminals who thought that they were below salvation, but no one is below salvation, and they, too, could be saved by accepting Christ. Now, I ask you this: If no one is below salvation, why would a murderer be able to be saved, but a man whose ignorance blocked him from seeing Christ as man's saviour not be saved? Is ignorance worse than murder?
You also said that you "believe heaven is a free gift". How can you say that when there is obviously a cost involved? (cost being accepting Christ) Also, if one doesn't accept Christ, there is definitely a costly penalty involved.
Just things to ponder.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-15-200110:13 PM
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Freegrace, I believe you are mistaken about the single fossil in a transition phase. You mentioned the transition ideas of animals with different parts (ex. "an ape with wings"). How about dinosaurs with bird hips? How about a species of dinosaur that had scales with a feather characteristics? There was also a canine species with the teeth of a whale? That species is now thought to be the evolutionary predecessor to the whale. Are those not transitional fossils? How about the fact that Neanderthals disappeared when Homo sapiens sapiens (the current state of humans) rose to prominence? Is it but sheer coincidence that Neanderthals no longer roam and humans do? I think that there is very clear evidence of transitional fossils that requires very little faith. As for being statistically impossible, the number "almost zero" is very different than "zero". In an infinite space, a near-statistical impossibility will occur.
You mentioned the Earth being perfect for life. It is true that it is perfect for our life, but you also mentioned a planet submerged in water. Could not that planet own life? Also, because Earth is so perfect, what are Mercury, Saturn, and Pluto? The mere existence of other planets shows us that chance is running its course. Creation by chance missed with the eight other planets in our solar system and hit a home run with Earth.
Given the idea that all things are made of tiny strings (superstring theory), then that explains how open strings can combine to form a pattern. These patterns can emerge in an entropic environment. Hence, creating order from an artificial chaos. That explains the "from chaos, comes life" argument.
I'm not saying that Christianity is illogical, just a significant amount less logical (along with other religions) than science.
My name is Mike Sorrow, because that's my real name.
Goodnight, all.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-15-200110:44 PM
Mike Sorrow
Member
2179 Posts
Member since:
10-08-2000
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Let's keep this up top, so the right people see it.
- Mike Sorrow -
posted 01-16-200102:50 PM
devilmunchkin
Member
3003 Posts
Member since:
08-19-2000
wow..i'm gonna have to take this one post at a time...woo! here we go!
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anyway: to freegrace's Zacharias post: As far as secularism being empty and existentialism being part of that (if i interpreted that right)....i don't agree at all. If you read their stories, you see that even though they were separated from there societies and perhaps seemingly empty people, they were empty to those that viewed them. IN fact, Camus saw the beauty and harshness of nature. He saw it's double-sided nature, flaws, wonders that most men don't see or take the time to look at. ONe symbol i point out is his view of the sun in The Stranger.
AS far as man needing a transcendant view. Of course, how else would all the religions of the world been created. I think they were in fact created for two reasons (or at least the only two i can think of for now):
1) for the weak to become stonger, more resilient to the physically strong, and eventually control
2) to explain what could not be explained at the time
I think now, as your comment says science can't explain everything. Well, what can? It CAN definitely explain much more than religion, although i do know it's a stand held by many that the Bible should not be interpreted as an authority on sciences in anyway; that it should be interpreted metaphorically.
I think any religion can be and is for many a way to have their cake and eat it too, although, new age, such as Satanism, is much more into physical pleasures. But, i do know that some people get immense amount of joy over being christian and following whatever their tenets are in whatever denomination.
Moving on to freegrace's next post:
If eternity is based on good works...then if an atheist like me humbly gives their life to good works but is wrong about heaven they should be able to get in. .....right? most likely wrong.
I often see The Matrix movie as a metaphor for Christianity, although i know many won't agree. Many Christians are fed this stuff...they learn faith, not to question and go about like good little sheep who sometimes stray but still believe there is one nice old man in the sky that's gonna make their lives ok. ALso, this could be like Plato's ALlegory of the cave. WE're born in a cave, immediately chained. The cave is dim, and black figues walk around with golden idols and we drag our chains. Perhaps one of us is forced free...out into the open. At first we kick and scream...not wanting to leave what we know and also because the light hurts out eyes. Eventually we adjust to the new surroundings and explore them. But we can never go back...because if we do, the chained people will try to kill us because we are not part of them anymore. This theme of not being able to return into the MAtrix is also prevalent...as Neo, nor any of the other freed people can return into it without facing opposition. SUch is the life of perhaps an atheist...or any one with different "spiritual" views. I'll be the first to say....i go to a private southern Baptist university and it's HARD. i have relatively few friends and many people are too scared to even approach me lest i "send them to hell" just by talking to me.
AS for heaven and hell...well i don't believe in either so there isn't much for me to say. ALthough i will say if it exists...Satan wears a purple suit, white button down shirt, black western tie, has shoulder length white hair, drawn long face, black rimmed eyes, and a wide full, red mouth. i had a dream once...just go with it.
ANyway..or you can view Dante's way..and if so...my coffin will burn like a mother! or Milton....which contrasts freegrace::: "can make a Heaven on Hell, a Hell of Heaven."
which might signify that sinners would be more content in Hell than in Heaven since they are against god.
as for the idea of evoluition...au contraire. there is no evidence against evolution but there ARE transitory fossils for it...just not in the way you'd think. Befor ei begin on that tho, evolution is not a belief, it's a scientific theory. can it be changed? yes. but it is not part of religion. If it bothers you that much...just think of it like this...genesis isn't so specific that evolution could not be inferred from it. There is room especially since we do know that the numbering system means jack. If god exists, he could have taken time, "perfecting" man as he went. But back to science. One day my biology prof lined up all these skulls on the table...it looked like a progression from a prehistoric apelike man to present day. BUt the thing is, they have found we are NOT in fact directly related to apes, we are merely related in the same web and the last two surviving general groups alive out of the primate web. NOt only man..but let's look at other species. Mutation is also a way of life that occurs spontaneously in one generation. If that mutated organism and reproduce with another and keep producing, then evolution has occured. THis happens alot. They've seen it in all types of species whose species differentiate into different subspecies when they are separated suddenly, or even if a change of climate occurs.
i do agree that the more scientists look at things the more the big band theory seems unlikely. but..hey...they're working on it...it's not static.
i think at this point, the scholar and writer in me is screaming out at me to write a nice conclusion, but since there wasn't any introduction ...i'm like.."awww...screw it."
I want freegrace to also note that i did NOT use any of the OT in this essay...i'm lettin you off easy this time!! lol!!!
THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL,
THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST.
JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR:
THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME,
THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE.
BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL,
AND ETERNAL WILL LAST.
ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE.
Dante's Inferno, Canto III
posted 01-16-200104:06 PM
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