| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message GOD-is-in-the >TV (tOny v015ard) Member 1883 Posts Member since: 11-15-2000 I see this thread at the top all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ what is this all about? <official member of the TONY,ROSE,Gustopher SNOT CLUB.> <1st official member of the "I hope Rosie O' Donnell falls of the face of the earth and I'm going to make it happen" club. Tony,ITYLT,CELEBRATED VICTIM,Cosmic Angel)> AIM__ IntoTHEvoidNIN90 my band: www.oocities.org/intothevoidNIN90/damage.html posted 02-11-200109:21 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 God is in the T.(Tony) V.(Voisard) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It is just a place for people to discuss their beliefs about God or the absence of God, offer poetry, dreams, etc. The main goal is openmindedness. The thread has some Christians, atheists, scientists, new agers, trent reznorists (just kidding Rosa) and many others who offer their opinions on anything from evolution to abortion to homosexuality. Everyone is free to pop in whenever they want without having to read all that proceeded it. I hope this helps...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-11-200109:25 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Good Night All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm off to bed. I've got work tomorrow. See you soon! Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-11-200109:27 PM GOD-is-in-the >TV (tOny v015ard) Member 1883 Posts Member since: 11-15-2000 God Bless You. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Read my username and you might get the irony. <official member of the TONY,ROSE,Gustopher SNOT CLUB.> <1st official member of the "I hope Rosie O' Donnell falls of the face of the earth and I'm going to make it happen" club. Tony,ITYLT,CELEBRATED VICTIM,Cosmic Angel)> AIM__ IntoTHEvoidNIN90 my band: www.oocities.org/intothevoidNIN90/damage.html posted 02-11-200109:29 PM HemLock Member 1785 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 something i've yet to understand ------------------------------------------------------------------------ this whole crucified saviour buisness? There are countless figures in history who end up being this crucified innocent to redeem the "sin" of mankind. -Prometheus -Horus -Io/Isis -Pythagoris -Dionysis and his victims -Orpheus and his victims -Socrates -Krishna -Queztcoatl -Jesus(of course) -John the Baptist -JFK/Oswald (in manson's artistic way) -countless others basically they are ritual victims like the "innocent" lamb but what the hell for? what is the "cosmological" purpose in these peoples ideologies I've heard that it has to do with fertility and "death and rebirth" cycle of plants/crops but it makes no sense to me that was one of the reasons I didn't like christianty from the get go... what difference is it that someone else "died for me" is this some irrational custom/ritual of god like the sabbath I really do think people don't know what is really going on...Sometimes I think we are god self-alienated and broke into little pieces but other times i think we are monkeys self-alienated. the "matrix" is your mind and reality is the monkey wanting to evolve and there is no right or wrong way but the "evil" people of the world continue to hide this fact of life from us and themselves... Does anyone know that man in "higher" sate supposedly has 7 senses? the serpent(electric) is supposed to be the 3rd eye(they have optical used of their pineal glands) and the dove(magnatism) is is supposed to represent "intuition" which a kind of ESP thing where you can acess knowledge instantly without experience without normal ways of learning... then I think about behaviorism and how if you don't develope an ability by a certain stage of development you never can develope it so these senses cannot be regained as an adult as they could be by a child. we are blind and dumb I guess... but its just a thought not a belief of mine "We feel that even when all possible scientific questions have been answered, the problems of life remain completely untouched. Of course there are then no questions left, and this itself is the answer. The solution of the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of the problem." - Ludwig Wittgenstein posted 02-11-200110:04 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hemlock & God is in the TV ------------------------------------------------------------------------ God is in the TV...I get the irony. LOL Hemlock...My time is limited and I only can do a short response to what you're asking. The chief difference is that Jesus Christ was fully human and divine. In the last thread we discussed that man is essentially evil and that God is essentially morally perfect. The Bible says in Nahum 3:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet." Thus, all men as a result of their sins are guilty and because God is a just judge He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. However, God is a merciful judge and He does not want to punish us but He must because of His justice. Therefore God came from heaven and took on flesh to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and purchase a place in heaven for us. This gift is received by faith, "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." The rest of the people you mentioned were not the one true God and they were not morally perfect. Because we have all sinned no one is innocent except for one who led a perfect life, which Jesus did. I hope this helps...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-12-200108:34 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hemlock and others ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To those who are seeing this for the second or third time (Rosa, Devilmunchkin, Rictus, Mike Sorrow) please ignore. Hemlock, Beautiful Death, here are my thoughts on the work of Christ and ironically the matrix...Freegrace quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Atossa and Rictus...I really appreciate the interaction you provided. I often am at work or studying so I apologize if I am not around much to interact with you. The best I can describe my beliefs is by pointing to the movie the Matrix. It is one of my favorite movies. This world has been greatly deceived by an evil force that has bound them in a dreamworld. I like when Morpheus says, "I know exactly what you mean. You look like a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that is not far from the truth. The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth that you are a slave Neo. Like everyone else you were born into a prison that you cannot smell or taster or touchâ¤|A prison for your mind." Sin enslaves us and is a continuous addiction. It has damaged the way life is supposed to be. In contrast to Rictus, I believe that man is naturally evil. Just drive down the freeway in Los Angeles, Chicago or New York during rushhour and it will become readily apparent by how often you get cut off, flipped off, etc. Atossa, the atrocities in Nazi Germany, Ruwanda, Bosnia, etc are an illustration of that fact. I do not believe that the good guy always wins out on earth. Sin in my opinion is anything we do that displeases God. We can sin in our words, thoughts, actions, in what we do or what we fail to do. As you can see the average person sins hundreds of times a day. How often do we fail to help someone in need, or have an impure action or hurt people. Even if someone only sinned 3 times a day, that would still be a thousand sins in a year and in an average lifetime that would be 74,000 sins. I can't imagine a traffic judge letting off someone with 74,000 traffic tickets, because they didn't mean to do it. Even if he did, that would mean that he was an unjust judge. Because I believe that man is naturally evil, I do not believe that anyone deserves to go to heaven. Romans 3:23-24 says, "23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." I believe that heaven is a free gift. The Bible says that heaven is a place where we worship God for eternity. Eternal church does not sound like a great place to many people. However, the way I picture it is imagine one of the greatest moments you ever had that you never wanted to leave (e.g. your first kiss, your best day, when you were in an amazing place in nature). I believe that the God that created those moments is even more amazing than the moments and as we experience him fully we will enjoy those moments and Him for eternity. However, compulsive worship is no fun for anyone, so even heaven would be hell for someone who really didn't believe in God or appreciate the gift of His son. Hell is a place where good is not present. Those who have rejected God and dreamed of a world without Him will get exactly what they asked for. Romans 1:18-25, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." If you've seen "Life is Beautiful" it appears that even in the death camps there was goodness and light. In hell there is only darkness. Like living in the Matrix, I believe that hell is a choice. I believe that hell was not a place that was created for man, but the devil and his demons. However, men have chosen that they would prefer to worship there so God will not stop them from making that decision. I do not believe hell is eternal because God is not merciful, but because man is eternally unrepentant. If we could not believe in Him on earth where there is so much evidence of His love even though the world is marred by sin, why would anyone believe in Him if they are in a world with no truth but only lies? Some people ask, "Why would God send a good person to hell?" In and of themselves, I do not believe that anyone is good and we send ourselves to hell. Thus far the message may sound pretty hopeless, but actually there is quite a bit of hope. Let's return to the traffic judge. If I had seventy four thousand traffic tickets, the judge could not declare me not guilty or that would violate His justice. A violation of the law, whether someone is sorry or not or made ammends, is not an excuse to be declared not guilty in any court. However, what if the judge declared us guilty and paid the fines for us? That would be a truly merciful act, yet it would preserve the judges' justice. I hear of a lot of people who speak of the love of God but few who speak of His justice. The only time they speak of His justice is when they're talking about someone else. If there is no punishment for sins, than why don't we treat everyone like crud? Everyone believes that people like Hitler should not go to heaven, but they neglect to acknolwedge the evil that is in the heart of every man. The Bible says, in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." In giving of His Son, God paid the debt that we could no longer pay. Our only job is to accept the gift he offerred. What if someone offerred to pay your debt of 1 trillion dollars, but you turned it down, because you'd prefer to pay in monthly installments of $2? That would be insane, just as it is not just to believe that our good acts can make up for our sins against God and others. How is the gift received? I believe it is by faith. Eph 2:8 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not on our own works. I often hear how could a loving God do X, but we are the ones who mistreated Him and only He can determine what will allow Him to maintain His mercy and justice. The rescuers of the Titanic are not criticized for the number of people that died at sea, but the number of people who lived as a result of their saving act. As far as other religions, I believe there are only two: Christianity and Manianity. All other religions teach that we get to heaven by our own good deeds. Christianity is the only religion that teaches that we get to heaven by the generosity of God. The area of Religion is the only study in which people believe sincerity is a symbol of truth. No matter how sincere someone is about a scientific hypothesis, it must be true to be valid. Atossa, yes it is awfully painful to believe in a system that my parents do not believe in and could have eternal consequences for them. Truth hurts and Christianity has often been more painful than my time as a skeptic. However, as you said pain is not a reason to deny truth. Like the Matrix, I have decided to swallow the red pill. I do not choose to see this world in which people are enslaved by their addictions through rosie colored glasses. Rather than being part of the problem, I desire to be part of the solution. If I choose to reject God for the sake of my parents, than neither of our eternal destinies are secure. If I choose to accept Him, God will empower me to be a witness to them. The power of Christ is not that He takes the pain away, but He gives us hope in the midst of it. Pyne offers a great point at how Christ⤙s life sufferings can give hope, "It is true that Jesus knew His sufferings would be temporary and that He would soon be restored to glory. However, it is not true that our own sufferings are utterly pointless and absurd. A high view of the providence of God affirms that all things ultimately have purpose, even evil acts which appear to be completely senseless. Jesus⤙ sufferings serve as a model for us, not simply because He experienced pain, but because He experienced hope in the midst of pain." This is a truly powerful statement. It points to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith as a person who not only understands our pain, but also can provide the truth that provides hope in the midst of it. Rictus, let's get back to your question that I promised to answer. The Bible says that Jesus did not come to the world to condemn you but to save you. John 3:16-19 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. I can not say definitively you are going to hell. Jonah 1 says, "And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown! 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them...8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." It appears that in the story of Jonah, the prophet was given a message of certainty but His mercy spared Ninevah judgment. I hope that hell is not real and all will be in heaven. However, I cannot live on a hope that I do not see in God's word. Therefore, I choose to live by what I believe God to say now rather than speaking for God because I may not like everything He says. For people who already believe they are going to heaven, this message may not seem very hopeful. However, I minister to gang members and prisoners who have already committed many crimes that they would consider would disqualify them from heaven. I now see why Jesus spent His time with the tax collector and prostitutes, because they didn't consider themselves to be righteous. They gladly accepted the fact that God would grant them eternal life by faith and He could change them into the person they always dreamed of being. I know that my life was not worth of eternal life, so one night I prayed to accept Christ's offering on my behalf, I asked for His forgiveness, and I turned from my sins to live for Him. Once again, without absolute certainty because God may be willing to give others a chance after they die, I would say that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will not go to heaven. If that includes you, I can only answer from what I know but I cannot judge. My hope and prayer is that you will choose not to reject the offer Christ gives you and for this reason I do as John did, "13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Before you is a red and a blue pill. I can not choose for you. The choice is yours. We must all choose whether we accept life in the Matrix of sin's deception or we choose truth and freedom. I hope I have not hurt your feelings. I realize these thoughts will not be popular here, but I feel like I would be dishonest by not answering your questions. Sorry for the long post...free grace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-12-200108:42 AM Sweede Member 763 Posts Member since: 11-29-2000 Jesus was a fucking alien goddamnnit..get over it ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesus the great the messiah...*he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy*(sorry couldn't resist). This theory may sound daft but maybe if i was more literate i could explain it in more detail and understanding. I have often pondered over this and it always seems to me as the obvious explanation. I'll skip most of the boring waffle that take up most of these kind of posts and try and het straight to it. Mary being a pregnant virgin: Mary was artificially inseminated by aliens. The star above the stable: Obviously a UFO, people would have come all over to see this amazing spectacle. How else would they describe a bright UFO but as a star. The amazing "miricles" Jesu performed: Well being a human-alien hybrid he could perform acts that were literally "out of this world". Walking on water, turning bread into wine, etc Now this may seem out of place in all your "serious" theological discussions but when you think about it in more depth as i have the more sense it seems to make. Now you can laugh -welcome to the machine...we were born to rage against it- posted 02-12-200108:54 AM Forgotten Gods Member 226 Posts Member since: 08-31-2000 God. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ God is an ideal... GOd is the all encumpasing reality as it is. Yet God is Perfection. Therefore God is impossible. So I correct myself... God is an IDEA. A dream if you will. God represents what you want, but can never have. The Cristian god is not God... the Christian god is a mans way of convincing himself he is a perfect creature. By saying that since man is in an image of perfection he can be perfect. It is also an attempt for man to explain something he cant hope to understand. And finally it is a time-killer and an antidepressant... Live through this and youll get to be perfect they say. I cant even begin to go into my thoughts here... perhaps some day ill try to put them all down on paper... until then youll have to speak with my Mark, the hippy counciler. Although he doesnt understand a word I say, he tries to, and probably has quite a bit of it written down as he likes taking notes. (No im not crazy. Im just not normal.) -signature- I have a distorted way of seeing the world. Its like looking through a broken pane of glass. I see many differant images of the same thing, and each one is real, yet they are all in contradiction. My goal now is to destroy the realities that make me weak so the strong can survive. -end signature- posted 02-12-200109:08 AM Sweede Member 763 Posts Member since: 11-29-2000 "The God" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ is just how the ancients of the human race defined extraterestrial intellegence. -welcome to the machine...we were born to rage against it- posted 02-12-200109:19 AM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 hi - yup it's me ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Downw4rd Sp1ral of 7he 1nner C1rc1e Of Self Reality? "The more I observe nature, the more I realize that the line between death and beauty is blurred - they are one and the same."- dawneagle "You are all laughing because I'm different - I'm laughing because you're all the same." -me posted 02-12-200111:39 AM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ok..if free grace gets to reiterate his idea about god's perfection, i think i should get to reiterate mine about how he isn't. lol. For those of you who are lost: I believe that a PErfect God cannot exist. Within the Old Testament, the HEbrew God openly admits being jeolous of other gods and also orders the extermination of the canaanite culture. Such insecurities within a perfection show a complete paradox that cannot exist. Also in opposition i do NOT believe that man is inherently evil. I believe we are all born innocent and LEARN what evil is , as we see it throughout the world in our daily lives. From the second a babe is left crying in its crib to watching it's father shoot it's mother. ANd every evil in between. Man learns, much like Shelley's Frankenstein, what evil is, though i DO believe it's man's nature to nurture. Otherwise, wouldn't we toss out our young straight out of the crib? that we live together in clans, caring and nurtuting shows man's inherent tendency to be good and not act good till he learns it. I will say learning is an inevitability, tho. It's something he cannot escape. @freegrace: shokan got kicked out of his house and doesn't have a computer to go online. Also, i haven't read Left behind since last weekend, so I severely doubt that the dream has anything to do withthat I don't even think the Webster discussion on race has anything to do with it because when i said black, i didn't mean a race, i meant i as just a black form. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-12-200102:46 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Plastic Jesus: Regarding Abortion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My time is short and I hoped to write a personal address. However, since my guess is that much of your information comes from a website, there is a website that pretty much espouses my view on it. Following is a complete discussion of the topic which is fairly consistent with my views on the matter: http://members.aol.com/CPLBO/AbortionandtheXian.Chap4.html The website actually contains much more evidence than what I am providing here, but I think it should be clear that the biblical evidence for life beginning at conception is much greater than the evidence against. Once again, I think the website your providing is providing an incomplete and inaccurate view of what the bible says about it. In the interest of those who do not take the time to read it, I will post some quotations from it that address the points in the article you shared with us: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Questions about the nature and value of prenatal life in God's sight cannot be answered without an understanding of the biblical doctrine of man. Foundational to that doctrine is man's creation in the image of God, as recorded in Genesis 1:26,27: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. In Genesis 9:6, the imposition of capital punishment for murder presupposes the inviolability of man's life in the sight of the Creator, precisely because man bears the divine image: Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image. Shedding man's blood is a heinous offense for the very reason that an attack on the bodily integrity of man is an assault on the dignity and honor of the One who created him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In a number of texts the biblical writers freely apply personal language to the unborn child. Genesis 4:1 says that "Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain." The writer's interest in Cain extends back beyond his birth, to his conception. That is when his personal history begins. The individual conceived and the individual born are one and the same, namely Cain. His conception, birth, and postnatal life form a natural continuum, with the God of covenant involved at every stage. Genesis 5:3 states that when Adam had lived 130 years he "begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth" (KJV). In the opening verse of this chapter, which constitutes the "book of the generations of Adam," is a reference to man's creation in the likeness of God. From Genesis 5:3 it seems clear that human reproduction was the means by which the image and likeness of Adam were transmitted to Seth. A personal continuity between father and son is here linked to bodily existence, sexuality, and prenatal life. In the third chapter of Job we find Job cursing the day of his birth in the following words: "Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night which said, 'A man-child [geber] is conceived' "(Job 3:3). Again we find a basic continuity between the individual born and the individual conceived. Job traces his personal history back beyond his birth to the night of his conception. The process of conception is described by the biblical writer in personal terms. There is no abstract language of the "products of conception," but the concrete language of humanity. The Hebrew word geber, generally used in a postnatal context and translated "man," "male," or "husband" (e.g., Ps. 34:9; 52:9; 94:12; Prov. 6:34), is here freely applied from the moment of conception. Psalm 51, David's psalm of penitence, is an especially important text for our discussion, particularly verse 5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Professor E.R. Dalglish, in his authoritative work on Psalm 51, comments, "In Psalm 51:7 [English v. 5] the psalmist is relating his sinfulness to the very inception of life; he traces his development beyond his birth to the genesis of his being in his mother's womb -- even to the very hour of conception."...In the next verse David goes on to confess that already in his mother's womb the moral law of God was present with him. According to the King James Version the text of Psalm 51:6 reads, "Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me know wisdom." Waltke, following the suggestion of Dalglish, argues that the Hebrew words rendered "inward parts" (tehoth) and "hidden part" (satem) properly refer not to David's body, but rather to his mother's womb.[10] This interpretation is supported by the close connection of verse 6 with verse 5, which clearly refers to conception and birth, and by a comparison of verse 6 with Psalm 139:15, where similar poetic language refers to God's secret activity in the womb. Thus both Dalglish and Waltke understand Psalm 51:6 to say that even in his prenatal state David was being taught the moral law of God. Dalglish translates the verse as follows: "Behold, truth thou desirest in the inward (being); and in the secret (part) wisdom thou teachest me."[11] He summarizes, ". . . the psalmist knows full well the divine desire for truth to be a moral imperative even in the formative stages of his being within his mother's womb . . . and is conscious that even there wisdom was taught him, i.e., in his embryological state . . . the moral law was inscribed within his being." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One of the most striking Old Testament passages to attribute personal characteristics to the unborn is Psalm 139:13-16: 13) For thou didst form my inward parts, Thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb. 14) I praise thee, for thou are fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well. 15) My frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. 16) Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Having earlier in the psalm spoken of God's omniscience (vv.1-6) and omnipresence (vv.7-12), David now focuses on God's intimate knowledge of and creative involvement with his prenatal development. David's praise, spoken from a postnatal perspective (v. 14), assumes his identity with the prenatal individual described in verses 13, 15, and 16. He says, "Thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb" (v.13), and similarly, "I was being made in secret" Page 43 (v.15). David naturally acknowledges his personal history and identity to have begun in the womb. His language suggests that his personal identity is not restricted to his conscious memory, but extends back beyond conscious recollections, to the earliest time of God's creative control of his prenatal development. These verses strongly imply that personal identity is a continuum, beginning in the womb and extending naturally into postnatal life. [13] Two possible objections to this prenatal "personalization" may arise. The first is that David's language is merely poetic and therefore precludes strict conclusions concerning the personhood of the unborn. The second objection is that verses 13-16 deal solely with divine foreknowledge and have nothing to say on the personal character of prenatal life. Since these objections are not without weight, one must be cautious in drawing inferences from such personal pronouns. In the New Testament, Luke in particular is sensitive to the development of the unborn. In chapter 1, Elizabeth greets her visiting cousin Mary with these words: "Behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:44). Two elements are noteworthy here. First, John the Baptist in his mother's womb leaped for joy in response to Mary's greeting. Human emotion is explicitly attributed to the unborn John. His mother Elizabeth was probably still in her sixth month, since it seems likely that Mary's visit followed closely upon the announcement by the angel Gabriel (cf. Luke 1:36,39). Elizabeth's statement should not be dismissed as poetic hyperbole, since Luke specifies that Elizabeth was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41). Furthermore, it is now well known that an unborn child can respond to touch at eight weeks and at 25 weeks can respond to human voices and feel pain and discomfort.[14] There is no scientific basis for precluding human emotion in John the Baptist at that stage of his prenatal life. A second point worthy of note is the use of the term brephos to describe John in the womb. Elsewhere in the New Testament the same term is used freely of infants and the newly born (Luke 18:15; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 7:19). Here again we have language indicating an understood continuity between prenatal and postnatal existence. Such instances do not in themselves constitute proof of the personhood of the unborn child from conception. Nevertheless, they combine with other lines of biblical evidence to form a total outlook pointing in that direction. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A second category of biblical texts appears to give evidence of personal relationships between God and the unborn. The capacity for such relationships with God is precisely the foundational element of personhood, the key distinction between man and the rest of creation. If such relationships exist between God and the unborn, that would strongly imply their personhood. Texts dealing with such relationships are bound to overlap some discussed in the previous section, especially Psalm 139:13-16. The other major Old Testament text where God's creative and sustaining involvement with embryonic human life is explicit is Job 10:8-12: 8) Thy hands fashioned and made me; and now thou does turn about and destroy me. 9) Remember that thou has made me of clay; and wilt thou turn me to dust again? 10) Didst thou not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese? 11) Thou didst clothe me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. 12) Thou hast granted me life and steadfast love; and thy care has preserved my spirit. As in Psalm 139:13-16, the development of prenatal human life is understood not as a blind natural process, but as God's creative and sustaining effort. In the scriptural view, as Delitzsch observes, "A creative act similar to the creation of Adam is repeated at the origin of each individual; and the continuation of development according to natural laws is not less the working of God that the creative planting of the very beginning."[15] In verse 9 there is an allusion to Genesis 2:7 and the formation of clay into a vessel by the potter's hand. "The figure is that of a potter who has lavished infinite care upon his vessel, and now reduces his work of elaborate skill and exquisite ornament into dust again."[16] Job feels that his present distress is inconsistent with God's previous care for him from the very beginnings of life. The figure of the potter and the clay, elsewhere used in a postnatal context (as in Jer. 18:5,6 and Rom. 9:20ff.), is here applied to Job's prenatal existence. As in Psalm 139:13-16, the inspired writer identifies himself with the prenatal work of God's hands: "Thy hands fashioned and made me . . . .thou has made me of clay." Job's language of personal identity reaches back into his mother's womb. In verses 10 and 11 Job likens his formation to the curdling of cheese and the process of weaving or plaiting. "Semen, poured like milk into the mother's womb, is wrapped in flesh and woven together by God into a human embryo."[17] The "steadfast love" (v.12; hesed) that Job has known throughout his life began with God's special providential care in the womb. Hesed, a key word in Old Testament theology, and applied here to the unborn Job, speaks particularly of Yahweh's covenantal relationship."[18] Even in his mother's womb Job is shown the same hesed extended by God in covenantal relationships to Abraham (Gen. 24:27), Jacob (Gen. 32:10), David (2 Sam. 13:20, LXX), and Israel (cf. Ps.98:3). In both Psalm 139:13-16 and Job 10:8-12 God's personal involvement in creation and providence personalizes the unborn and provides the foundation for the later conscious enjoyment of that covenant relationship by the people of God. Just as in the redemptive sphere God's sovereign work of regeneration logically precedes the response of faith and repentance, so in the natural sphere God's creative and providential work in the womb is the precondition for life itself. Personhood, whether "natural" or redeemed, is not a possibility intrinsic to man, but comes from God's sovereign initiative. "In him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28) --both prenatally and postnatally. If it is true that "we love, because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19), it seems reasonable to say that we are persons because God first related to us in a personal way. Human personhood is rooted in the creative and providential care of God, which begins in the womb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In Judges 13:2-7 we read that Samson was consecrated to be a Nazirite to God prior to his birth. Both his conception and consecration are described as acts not of parental will, but of the Lord's sovereign determination. In Isaiah 49:1,5 the servant of the Lord, in a prophecy that looks forward to Christ, declares, "The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. . . . the Lord . . . who formed me from the womb to be his servant. . . ." John the Baptist, prior to his birth, was given a name and set apart to be the prophet who prepares the way for the Messiah (Luke 1:13-17). The angel of the Lord, appearing in a dream to Joseph, while the child was still in Mary's womb, announced that his name was to be Jesus (Matt. 1:18-25). And the apostle Paul declares that he had been set apart for God's service before he was born (Gal.1:15). All these texts indicate that God's special dealings with human beings can long precede their awareness of a personal relationship with God. God deals with human beings in an intensely personal way long before society is accustomed to treat them as persons in the "whole sense." As with divine election, so with calling and consecration to service: God's actions present a striking contrast to current notions of personhood. The biblical texts we have surveyed show that categories normally applied to postnatal man are applied also to the unborn. Again, while some allowance must be made for the possibly metaphorical nature of such biblical statements, it is hard to resist the impression that God takes a deep interest in the unborn child. Even without constituting a strict proof of the personhood of the unborn child -- at least in the very earliest stages of pregnancy -- these texts do challenge traditional views of personhood. Far from showing that the unborn are less than persons, these texts appear, in fact, to point in the opposite direction. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Exodus 21:22-25 Professor Meredith Kline has observed that "the most significant thing about abortion legislation in the Biblical law is that there is none. It was so unthinkable that an Israelite woman should desire an abortion that there was no need to mention this offense in the criminal code."[19] Nevertheless, there is a passage in the Mosaic code that sheds light on the status of the unborn child in Old Testament law. This text, Exodus 21:22-25, has been the subject of considerable attention and, not surprisingly, a number of competing interpretations. The translators of the Revised Standard Version assume that a miscarriage is in view and translate the passage as follows: 22) When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23) If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25) burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. The King James Version, however, allows for the possibility of a premature live birth: 22) "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follows, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23) And if any mischief follows, then thou shalt give life for life. . . . The phrase "so that her fruit depart" of the KJV is a more literal rendering of the Hebrew than the RSV's "so that there is a miscarriage." The New International Version also takes the passage to refer to a premature live birth. For the sake of convenience we will designate the two most common lines of interpretation simply as "Position I" and "Position II." The circumstances described in verse 22 will be designated as "Case A", and the circumstances of verses 23-25 designated as "Case B". Those who adopt Position I take Case A to mean that if a pregnant woman suffers a nonfatal injury in the strife, and as a result suffers a miscarriage, then monetary compensation is to be rendered for the loss of the child and for the woman's injury. Case B is taken to mean that if, in addition to the miscarriage, the woman is fatally injured, then the provisions of the lex talionis apply, and capital punishment may be in view.[20] On this view, the lack of a capital penalty for causing the death of the unborn child by miscarriage would suggest that Old Testament law placed a higher value on the life of the mother than on the life of the unborn child. If so, it is argued, then difficult circumstances might justify taking the life of the child through deliberate abortion as the lesser of two evils. Those who adopt Position II argue that the "miscarriage" translation is inaccurate.[21] They believe that Case A refers not to a miscarriage but to a premature live birth. In Case A, the child is born alive, and the woman sustains a nonfatal injury. Monetary compensation is rendered for the trauma of premature birth and for any harm suffered by the woman. In Case B, the "harm" (ason) is taken to refer to either mother or child. The death of either mother or child comes under the rule of the lex talionis, and the assailant is subject to the capital penalty. On this view, the Mosaic law makes no distinction between the value of the life of the mother and that of the unborn child. The loss of either life comes within the purview of the lex talionis. Position II, then, sees Exodus 21:22-25 as teaching the full legal status of the unborn child as a human life (v.23b). That would make Exodus 21:22-25 in fact a very strong anti-abortion passage. Interpreters who hold Position II point out a number of exegetical difficulties involved in Position I. The verb translated "depart" or "come out" (yatsa) usually refers in the Old Testament to live birth.[22] The usual Hebrew verb for miscarriage (shakol), found in Exodus 23:26 and Hosea 9:14, is not used in Exodus 21:22. Furthermore, the term yeled in verse 22, "child" or "fruit," is not the usual Old Testament designation for the product of a miscarriage. In such cases of the death of an unborn child the designation nefel, "one untimely born" (Job 3:16; Ps.58:8; Eccles. 6:3), is used. Thus the linguistic evidence favors the view that verse 22 indicates not an accidental miscarriage, but rather a premature live birth. More recently, Meredith G. Kline has offered an exegesis of Exodus 21:22-25, which we may designate "Position III."[23] While Kline's exegesis agrees with Position 2 that the life of the unborn child is granted a legal status equal to the mother's, the exegetical route by which he establishes that conclusion differs from that of Position II and, I believe, is more adequate. In Kline's view, Case A refers to the following circumstances: The child is born prematurely, but alive and uninjured; the woman experiences a fatal injury. In such a case the assailant must render a monetary compensation in the amount demanded by the husband. In Case B, if the child suffers calamitous injury or death, the penalty must be a just monetary compensation. Thus Position III holds that Case A refers to injuries to the mother alone, and Case B to injuries to the child alone. In either case, the law treats a fatal injury as a case of negligent manslaughter, for which monetary compensation may be rendered as a substitute for the forfeiture of life (cf. the case of the goring ox in Exodus 21:29,30).Kline observes that the force of the verb nagaph ("smite"; RSV, "hurt") has not been adequately noticed by previous commentators. This verb and its derivatives can refer to fatal divine judgments (1 Sam. 25:38; 26:10) or to slaughter in battle (Judg. 20:35; 1 Sam. 4:3). In Exodus 21:35, the term describes the fatal attack of one ox by another, goring ox. Thus there is good linguistic reason to hold that the injury to the mother in verse 22 is a fatal one.Notice should also be taken of the unusual term ason ("harm," RSV). In the only other biblical context where the term is found, a serious injury or even death is denoted. There Jacob fears that grievous calamity might befall Benjamin on the journey to Egypt (cf. Gen. 42:4,38; 44:9). Such an unusual word would be appropriate for the somewhat unusual circumstance of prenatal death by violently induced miscarriage, but less so for the death or injury of the woman. In the latter case, the more usual terminology would be expected. Thus, the meanings of nagaph and ason give further support to the view that the death of the child by induced miscarriage is not in view in verse 22. Position III, I am convinced, is the preferable exegesis of Exodus 21:22-25. Both Positions II and III agree that Exodus 21:22-25, far from justifying permissive abortion, in fact grant the unborn child a status in the eyes of the law equal to the mother's. The passage is thus consistent with the high regard for prenatal life manifested elsewhere in Scripture. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-12-200103:27 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey Devilmunchkin and others ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks to all those who posted their thoughts. It was great to hear from you all. Devilmunchkin...Shokan got kicked out? Was it over La_Morte? Too bad. I really liked him. As I said, I'm not the best at interpreting dreams. Now you know why. Jealousy is not necessarily a sign of imperfection. There is a certain type of jealousy that is a type of love. When you love someone you want for them to devote themselves fully to you. I'm sure if Nihilist was devoting all his time and energy to another girl you'd be jealous because you love him. That's not a sign of imperfection. In fact, I'd be more worried if you didn't feel that way. The type of bad jealousy in 1 corinthians 13 is more of the violent raging type. It's possessive over something that is not yours to begin with. 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-12-200109:48 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ see..and i DO see that god's jeolousy as violent and raging....the story shows he attempted to exterminate those who had never been even taught about him. SO, in a sense, they weren't his to begin with. ALso, if jesus was completely human, how could he be god also> did he have to be potty trained? What is you view on god having a sex? (this was an actual discussionin my OT class: "Does God have testicles" OOOO!! THat had some little baptists squirming in their seats!! i laughed). THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-12-200109:54 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Now Devilmunchkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do we have to review this again? Are you saying this to stump me or just because you like to hear my point over again. God's killing is different than mans because He created us and He does own us. No I do not believe that God is male like we think. I consider the use of the word He to be phenomelogical language. Jesus emptied Himself of His powers when he came to earth to experience life as a human. Therefore his essence was divine but He took on human form...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-12-200110:00 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi all! I have been popping in to read, and as we seem to be re-visiting an old topic, I couldn't resist throwing in my opinion again. I agree with devilmunchkin, I think man is inherrently good, or at least innocent, and that evil behaviour is learned. I also think that evil behavior goes against our instincts, and does not lead to happyness, making it self defeating. Also freegrace, I do not accept that jealousy is ever a good thing. On the contrary I believe jealousy along with greed are the major faults in western pholosophies and worldview. I further do not accept that jealousy is inherrant in the human condition, and anthropological studies of 'perimitive' cultures would support me on this. I think it is one of the biggest falsehoods of christianity, to enshrine such behaviour in human nature, and I reject that concept utterly. Jealousy is, I believe, learned behaviour, and as such can be unlearned. I consider myself living proof of this fact. Me. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-13-200110:19 AM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ so ..if there is a god...he learned be jeolous??? hmmm...kidding. If he owns us why do we have free will? or do we? what about predestination? SO, because he owns us he can make a kill at will. Kind of like a child building things merely for his own satisfaction of destroying it???? IF there is a god, why did heplace these people on earth, unaware of him merely to cause a war....for yucks? more imperfections... THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-13-200110:43 AM sweet lil babe69 Member 3093 Posts Member since: 01-25-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ um, do you guys listen to everyone? this is a very interesting topic, although it took me 3 days to read the whole thing. rictus: just to clarify, i am not a republican, i just happen to not believe in partial birth abortion. *the best way to gain knowledge is to fuck interesting people* .........."no matter where you go...there you are" HEEEEEEEYYYYY HOOOOOOOOO PPPOOOOOOOGGGGGGGGOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! *BOUNCE, ROCK* RIDE YOUR POGOSTIX!!! (CAN YOU FEEL THE POGO LOVE???) posted 02-13-200110:48 AM Webster Member 181 Posts Member since: 02-07-2001 I'm currently reading what fregrace has cut and pasted and responding as I go along... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You talk about Jesus being morally perfect. If I remebr correctly it is a sin to commit suicide. Well, god in a sense killed himself, (even though we can say that that crowd and all its people crucidfied him) god sent an image of himself down to earth because he knew he was going to die. And wouldn't sending yourself somewhere because you knew you were going to be killed be suicide in a way? But then again, this is just my personal feeling on that. Also, lets think about the seven deadly sins, if im correct they are: Pride Lust Envy Wrath Greed Gluttony (damn.. I can never remeber the seventh.. is it Vanity?) Anyway, calling to mind the story of Jesus in the temple courtyard, flipping the tables of the taxpayers or something? (you guys know what story im talking about...) the point is that in this instance, we could say that he let out a form of "Wrath" couldn't we? So does this make him morally perfect? Does this make him sin free, as everyone wants to say that he is? I mean after all, wrath is one of the 7 deadly sins isn't it? A sin that supposedly cant be forgiven by god. (if memory of the priest talking in church serves me correct) quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If we could not believe in Him on earth where there is so much evidence of His love even though the world is marred by sin, why would anyone believe in Him if they are in a world with no truth but only lies?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If his evidence of love is all over this world, then why do millions of people die each day in Africa from hunger and starvation? Okay, lets assume that none of them believe in god. Even then, god said he is a just god, which would mean that weather or not they believe in god they would get some sort of mercy, wouldn't they? If you read the bible ( I don't have a bible to quote from but, ) But, in the bible when it describes jesus, it describes him as a black male. Now, the bible also said that god created man in his image. So, you would think that god might even favor, just a fraction of a percent the people that resemble him the most. You would think that he would help those starving and dying people. And don't blame it on the evils of man, because this all powefull god of yours would be able to stop the evils of man if he wanted. "The power of Christ is not that He takes the pain away, but He gives us hope in the midst of it." I'd like to think that the mothers and fathers of these sick and dying children, or even the older brothers and sisters that have managed to survive for this long would have some sort of hope (for the new children that are born everyday in africa) to live a long and prosperous life. What kind of hope is God giving them? The hope that they will goto heaven? You said that you believed that heaven was like one of the best moments of your life only magnified, and what the hell is supposed to be the best moment of these kids lives? The one day that american soldiers air dropped some damn rice and grain for them, of which they probably recieved less than a small handfull? The day that thier mother died of aids? The day thier baby brother died of malnutrition? Or should they revel in the thought of heaven? The thought that if they are lucky they will live 10 more days, and then goto heaven? What the hell for. Even though I do not believe in god, I'd like to think that the people that do, would like a long, enjoyable life before they go into thier "afterlife" (even though its highly possible to say that half of these kids don't even worship or believe in god, nor do they think of heaven) quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The bible says this? The bible says this? Then why does it also say in the bible that if someone baptises you just before you die you have an automatic ticket into heaven? Which theoritically means, that if A child is born into the world, and never believes in god, and then murders 50 people, if a lector, or a priest baptises this guy before he dies, he gets a ticket into heaven. But I thought he was condemed? Now, im not trying to put you down Freegrace, you can belieev whatever you want. I don't care, because it's your choice as an individual to do as you please. All I ask of people who like to spout the bible, and try to explain why and how god is so perfect (which they have every right to do) that they should at least look at the other side of the coin. Anyone can spout the positive points of the bible (except for me.. hehe, I never read the bible that much) but noone seems to be able to explain all the contradictory stuff? All I ask is that someone clear up the confusion that the bible spreads. Honestly, all cynisms (spelling?) aside, if anyone could clear up for me the confusion that the bible casts forth, I would the next very day walk into a church and ask for forgiveness for having gone astray from the flock. But noone ever seems to be able to do that, so I will just sit back and enjoy a read as you continue to write such long posts trying to prove your point. Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down. Im just an insane nutcase that has my own opinion that I want to express..... "If Jesus died for our sins, lets at least give him his moneys worth.... " -Me "I am the bullet in the gun, I am the truth from which you run" - NIN posted 02-13-200111:05 AM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
 |