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| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin I like You ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If I were an atheist I would also question the existence of God in this world and use suffering as my primary argument against his existence. However, you have correctly stated that God is sovereign and all of us should appreciate the gifts we have been given. Incidentally, I think that oftentimes poor people experience more joy because they have less. What I mean is that in America we have so much that we often wine to God to give us more. However, many poor people in South America especially thank God for what they have. Thanks for having an open mind and looking at it from that perspective. I wish everyone (including myself) would do that more...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-15-200108:05 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *laughs* yeah..i kinda backed your point didn' tI?? I justrealize that humanity as a while tends to take for granted what they have.... i adore every bite of pasta roni i get.....it's the most delicious thing i've every eaten despite the wonderful dished my mom makes... It's also in that i EARNED it. with my own work i bought it and it's a result. I can take pride in that. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-15-200108:18 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 As Rictus would say ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Whose side are you on anyways? Just kidding. I thank you for lending support when you can. There are not many times when people agree with me on this thread but that isn't why I am here. I really do appreciate your open mind. Yes, food tastes even better when you've worked hard for it and earned it. I love Pasta Roni. I also love the George Foreman because I could cook a great meal in minutes *sounds like a commercial doesn't it?* See you my friend...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-15-200108:41 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ yes, butthe only difference between you andme is i don't attribute it to god..i attrubute it to my own hard work. the first post was to try and get people to see your point. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-15-200108:51 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 I attribute it to both ------------------------------------------------------------------------ God created us to work. Work was not a consequence of the fall. Adam was working before sin entered into the world. I enjoy the fruits of my labor and I thank God for them. I thank my parents for teaching me to read but I also take joy in my scholastic accomplishments. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-15-200109:08 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Born Again ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have really been listening a lot to "Born Again" and "Disposable Teens." I would be most interested in hearing all of your interpretations of "Born Again." It is an interesting song to me because of what it seems to say about conformity within society towards Christianity. However, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what that song says to you about people who claim to be born again, what the valley of the dolls and disco symbolize, and how you all relate to the song. Thanks for contributing to this thread...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-15-200109:13 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @everyone: I would like to appologise for my part in the row with ADOLPH that degenerated on this thread. I tthink you all know that I set this thread up precisely to avoid that kind of name calling and negative interaction, so I'm sorry I wasn't able to uphold my own high ideal in this matter. @freegrace: Great question! I have a job interview in an hour, and I need to go prepare myself for it, but I'll definately be happy to give you my take on those songs. Are you still listeneing to lamb of god? Your friend Rictus. Me. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-16-200105:12 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Thanks Rictus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No Worries. Adolph has blown up at me before. I got really mad at him until I found out that he was going through withdrawal for being away from the drugs. Then I was glad to take it, because I'd rather him be grouchy off the drugs than be in a good mood on them. I look forward to your response. If it is anything like your analysis of Lamb of God, I know it will give me great insight into Brian Warner's music. I have formed my own opinions of "Born Again", but I want to hear everyone else's since I haven't been listening to him as much as most of you. Thanks and God Bless. I hope your interview went well...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-16-200102:17 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Did this work? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I posted this earlier but now I don't see it. No Worries. Adolph has blown up at me before. I got really mad at him until I found out that he was going through withdrawal for being away from the drugs. Then I was glad to take it, because I'd rather him be grouchy off the drugs than be in a good mood on them. I look forward to your response. If it is anything like your analysis of Lamb of God, I know it will give me great insight into Brian Warner's music. I have formed my own opinions of "Born Again", but I want to hear everyone else's since I haven't been listening to him as much as most of you. Thanks and God Bless. I hope your interview went well...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-16-200102:25 PM ADOLF GANDHI Member 976 Posts Member since: 01-30-2001 IDONTUNDERSTANDWHYPEOPLEGETSOUPSETWHENSOMEONESTRETCHESTHEBOARDISITBECAUSETHEYARETOLAZYTOMOVETHEIR MOUSEJUSTALITTLEBITORISITBECAUSETHEYJUSTHATEANYANDEVERYTHINGTHATMAKESTHEMUSEALITTLEEFFORTIJUSTDONTUNDER STANDITATALL ------------------------------------------------------------------------ YEAHWHYDOPEOPLEGETMADATMEIAMJUSTONEPERSONANDTHEREISNOREASONFORTHEMTOGETALLBENTOUTOFSHAPELOLOLOLOL OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO ADOLF----------THE ONE YOU LOVE TO HATE . GANDHI-------THE ONE YOU RARELY SEE ON THIS MISERABLE PERVERTED COMBATANT SITE! posted 02-16-200102:46 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Who said I was angry? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't mind moving my mouse. God Bless Adolph...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-16-200104:42 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 Freegrace ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I had been awaiting your response - looks like you've got your hands full. I suppose one have more success arguing the ethics of abortion, which is primarily subjective and devoid of factual proof. Erroneously labeling a book of the bible and then trying to manipulate dates to conform with Judeo-Christian bathos does take a bit more work. Whenever you get around to it, I'll be here waiting. "Yeah, hes like an STD." - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-17-200107:37 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Prarie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The reason I had not responded to your question was I had not seen you on here in a while. Frankly, I think that the only reason you came back here was that you saw me on Chaos' tribute thread when I mentioned the theology thread and you decided to come back, look at the thread to see if I answered your question then act like you've been waiting for this long time for an answer. That is neither nor there. With respect to your question, if you were going to attack the validity of the Bible, I am shocked that you would do so by attacking the manuscripts. That is one of the greatest evidences for the Bible's reliability. First the existence of manuscripts far supercedes the number of any other ancient work of its time. Here is a comparison: Caesar (Gallic Wars) was written in 100-44 B.C., with the earliest manuscript dated 900 A.D. and a 1000 yr. gap between them and only 10 copies in existence. Homer's Iliad was reportedly written in 800 B.C. with the earliest manuscript in 900 A.D. with only 650 copies and a 1800 yr. gap between writings. Herodotus' History was written in 480-425 B.C. and the earliest manuscript is from 900 A.D. with only 8 in existence and a total of 1400 yr. gap between them. Thucydides' History was written in 460-400 B.C. with the earliest manuscript in 900 A.D. with only 8 in existence and a 1300 yr. gap between them. Any work of Plato's from 400 B.C. with the earliest manuscript in 900 A.D. with only 7 in existence and a 1300 yr. gap. Tacitus (Annals) was written in A.D. 100 with the earliest manuscript in 1100 A.D. with 20 in existence and a 1000 yr. gap between them. Pliny the Younger (Natural History) was written in 61-113 A.D. and the earliest manuscript is in 850 A.D. with 7 in existence and a 750 yr. gap between them. Compare this with the Bible. The New Testament which was composed in 50-95 A.D. has its earliest fragment in 110 A.D. with only a 10-30 year gap between them. There are a total of 5366 copies of manuscripts with at least a 97% accuracy rate with no major doctrine being affected by textual variations. Compared to all the other works, this is nothing short of a miracle. Especially in light of the immense persecution and mass destruction of bible evidence during the Roman Empire most notably During persecutions under the reign of Emperor Trajan (98-117 A.D.) and other subsequent Roman Emperors, books of scripture were destroyed and burned wherever found. Regarding your point about John, ironically the P 52 or the John Rylands Fragment dates to about 110-138 A.D. It contains small sections of John 18:31-33 and 37-38. More recent re-dating brings this within a decade of when John wrote it. You say that it is unlikely that John wrote it because the earliest manuscript was written in 125 AD? This coupled with the fact that there is internal and external attestations within the book and from people during that time that testify that John wrote it. Furthermore, church history documents attest that John lived at least until 90-100 AD and so even if we accept the date of 125 for the earliest manuscript, that would be very close to his lifetime. I am not sure if you wrote your point out of a lack of understanding of archeology and manuscripts or just to try to irritate me. Here is the internal and external evidence I speak of (quoted from the Bible Knowledge Commentary): quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Internal evidence supplies the following chain of connections regarding the author of the Fourth Gospel. (1) In John 21:24 the word ⤜them� refers to the whole Gospel, not to just the last chapter. (2) ⤜The disciple� in 21:24 was ⤜the disciple whom Jesus loved� (21:7). (3) From 21:7 it is certain that the disciple whom Jesus loved was one of seven persons mentioned in 21:2 (Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the two sons of Zebedee, and two unnamed disciples). (4) ⤜The disciple whom Jesus loved� was seated next to the Lord at the Last Supper, and Peter motioned to him (13:23-24). (5) He must have been one of the Twelve since only they were with the Lord at the Last Supper (cf. Mark 14:17; Luke 22:14). (6) In the Gospel, John was closely related to Peter and thus appears to be one of the inner three (cf. John 20:2-10; Mark 5:37-38; 9:2-3; 14:33). Since James, John⤙s brother, died in the year a.d. 44, he was not the author (Acts 12:2). (7) ⤜The other disciple� (John 18:15-16) seems to refer to the ⤜disciple whom Jesus loved� since he is called this in 20:2. (8) The ⤜disciple whom Jesus loved� was at the cross (19:26), and 19:35 seems to refer to him. (9) The author⤙s claim, ⤜We have seen His glory� (1:14), was the claim of someone who was an eyewitness (cf. 1 John 1:1-4). Putting all of these facts together makes a good case for the author of the Fourth Gospel having been John, one of the sons of a fisherman named Zebedee. External evidence. The external evidence is the traditional ascription of authorship which has been well known in the church. Polycarp (ca. a.d. 69=ca. a.d. 155) spoke of his contact with John. Irenaeus (ca. 130=ca. 200), the bishop of Lyons, heard Polycarp and testified that ⤜John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, had himself published a Gospel during his residence in Ephesus in Asia� (Against Heresies 3. 1). Polycrates, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and other later fathers support this tradition. Eusebius was specific that Matthew and John of the apostles wrote the two Gospels which bear their specific names (The Ecclesiastical History 3. 24. 3-8). Place of Origin. The external tradition is strong that John came to Ephesus after Paul had founded the church and that he labored in that city for many years (cf. Eusebius The Ecclesiastical History 3. 24. 1). Supporting this tradition is the evidence of Revelation 1:9-11. When John was in exile on Patmos, an island off the coast of Asia Minor, he wrote to seven Asian churches, the first of which was Ephesus. That the Fourth Gospel was originally published at Ephesus is a good probability. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Needless to say, Prarie, you have a choice. Either you can consider yourself more authoritative than the people of John's time, the archeological evidence or internal attestations within the book to make your argument against Johanine authorship. If you choose to do so, I respect that decision. However, I believe that the evidence is much greater for Johanine authorship than against. Sorry to keep you waiting. I honestly thought that you were no longer participating on this thread. Plastic Jesus was available much more often so I decided to give him his answer first until I heard from you. Keep in mind that it is much easier to ask a question than to answer it. When you get a chance, I would like for you to answer my questions on the thread regarding the subjective reasons for believing as you do (I'm not really even sure what that is) and your interpretation of Born Again. I hope this information is helpful and that you have a great day. For further information on the bible or manuscripts you can refer to: http://apologetics.hypermart.net/nt/hasthebiblebeenpreserved.html Sincerely, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-19-200111:07 AM Webster Member 181 Posts Member since: 02-07-2001 I'mmmm baaaaaaaccckk.... And damn do I have some readin to do... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Damn. "Dear God, we pretty much paid for this meal ourselves, so, THANKS FOR NOTHING!" - Bart Simpson "I am the bullet in the gun, I am the truth from which you run" - NIN posted 02-19-200105:48 PM BeautifulDEATH Member 233 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 me too! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So that's Adolph's problem. Now it makes a little more sense. Can't wait to read the new posts. posted 02-19-200106:19 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Adolph, Webster and Beautiful Death ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adolph...welcome back. I'm glad to see that you are willing to extend and olive branch to Rictus. You know I love you no matter how mad you get and I'm glad to see that you haven't left us forever. By the way, I'm still looking for my email. Webster...Good to see you again. Yes we've talked about a lot of things. Feel free to stop by any time. Don't feel obligated to read everything just to participate. Beautiful Death...Please don't take this as me being a judgmental Christian, I am just trying to understand your expression of your faith in Christ. What I'm trying to understand is how you can on the one hand espouse Christianity and on the other hand, have a discussion topic that glorifies pornography. As you know, Jesus said, "27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." Clearly embracing behaviors that would cause one to lust is antithetical to what Jesus taught. Do you perceive this as words that Jesus never said? If so, how do you come to that conclusion? Is it only because you disagree with them and therefore remove it from his lips? or do you believe Jesus said it and choose to disregard it? Once again, please do not misunderstand my purpose in addressing this question. I am not trying to attack you or judge you. I am always unclear as to how people can on the one hand profess Christ and on the other hand advocate things that were antithetical to what he taught. Thank you all for your contributions. Sincerely, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-19-200109:22 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 Rescind ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I got to thinking about it and I guess my pride took over again.I don't know. I remember making some general comments about certain lifestyles and then getting personally attacked.I remember basically getting called a racist again,because I encouraged Brian Mathers and his racist babble. LMAO!! I liked that young man but he definetly has some issues with race.LOL. I guess I was guilty by association. I remember getting attacked on the main body (not this thread ) which was ok because I enticed it. BUT........................... I don't think I was the one who started it here. I seem to remember someone trying desperately with their vast vocabulary to make me look ignorant. I remember a ludicrous statement about how westerners (basically white people) were responsible for introducing evil into a certain culture or race. Then ,I remember being accused of being racist when in my mind the original statement was racist as hell!!!! So, maybe it's my stupid ignant racist southern pride that made me rescind my apology,I don't know yet. Maybe it's the fact that this person comes into my posts now trying to agravate me or provoke me . Maybe it's because it seems like this person is vengeful. I wish you hadn't seen my apology F.G. SIGH P.S. The fight is going great. No slip ups. TRYING TO BE A SIMPLE KIND OF MAN posted 02-19-200109:49 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Adolph ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Apologizing was the right thing to do. Although I get annoyed by people who judge me and call me elitist or a jerk, I equally apologize if I did anything to them, even if I felt provoked. Rescinding your apology is only adding salt to the wound. It is much better to forgive and forget. Needless to say, you'll note that I disagreed with Rictus on his point about the westerners and used the Mayans and the Aztecs as an example. Although part of my culture descended from the Aztecs (my mother's side), I recognize that some acts they did even prior to Western influence were quite barbaric. To blame all the ills of the world on the west is short sided, especially since there were problems in the world long before the western world really was the western world. Rictus apologized for his part and I think you should do the same. You know I love you and I'll always be your biggest fan. I believe in you Adolph. I think you are a bigger man than this. It is time to fess up and get it over with and move on. Your friend and biggest fan (who is waiting for an email;) ), Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-19-200110:01 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ hey..i'mposting this essay here to: can you find ANYerros at all..including logic, grammar, etc??? ⤜HONEY! GET ME A BEER!!� the redneck yells at his ⤜old ball and chain.� Generally the stereotype of the meek housewife secretly existing as man⤙s primer plight has surfaced over the last few hundred years. Contrasting to this label, many ancient writers viewed women as a metaphor for reform in society toward perfection of the spiritual self. Such works that exemplify this are Homer⤙s Odyssey, Sophocles⤙ Oedipus the King� Ovid⤙s Metamorphoses, and Dante⤙s ⤜Inferno.� In addition, these works tend to give greater character development to the woman central to the story, thus signifying and importance in what might be seen as the Trinity: wisdom, divine love, and omnipotence. Mainly focused on its namesake, the Odyssey mainly centers on Odysseus⤙ attempts to return to Ithaca. By returning to Ithaca, he returns to his wife and his soul mate, Penelope. Homer does not detail much of Penelope⤙s personality, but let⤙s us see that she is crafty. The example of idealistic belief⤙s lies in Athena, Odysseus⤙ guide and mentor. She allows us to see that the reform needed is from warlike ways to thinking, as she helps Odysseus by offering him advice and ways to talk his way out of trouble. Then we can infer the Penelope⤙s craftiness exists as an attribute that can ultimately be obtained by Odysseus if he returns to Ithaca. Yet, Penelope is not perfection like Athena because she does not have the power to turn the suitor⤙s away or a true reverence for the god⤙s. Her actions revolve merely around thinking about ways to out wit the suitor⤙s rather than prevent them from taking over her home and little thought is given to divine love, but rather to intense love for Odysseus. Unlike Penelope, Jocasta, the main female character from Oedipus the King, serves as an inhibitor to change on account of her acts of hubris. She admits the god⤙s have sway over her life and should be feared, but she also thinks that she can outwit fate and nature, thus overstepping her human boundaries. Of course this will catch up with her, and from that Sophocles uses Jocasta⤙s dramatic speeches against the god⤙s to express that she indeed does not believe her own words, but instead fears the prophesy and through wisdom has uncovered the truth about the son she thought has died. Jocasta also displays a flawed character development because it only develops so far before she commits suicide. The character of Penelope in the Odyssey failed to develop at all as a character and tended to remain static, but Jocasta matures as a character, uncovering more and more truth, representing an advancement in the woman⤙s role as the spiritual center. Ovid continues this growth of the woman⤙s role as the metaphor of spiritual purity. In some of his books in the Metamorphoses his female character, Pyrrha, displays the power to change and piety towards the gods. In ⤜The Flood,� Pyrrha exudes pure piety towards her known religious tenets and also develops the power to create life, thus she contains a certain omnipotence. Being the only woman on earth, she prays to the god⤙s, thus showing her devotion and connection to divine love. She is then blessed with the power to create a newfound race of man. By being the new mother of man, we receive a sense of power and grace from her as they must look to her to draw on her example. Within the pages of Dante⤙s ⤜Inferno,� lay the first glimpses of the model center of change. Beatrice was Dante⤙s love in real life, so in his poem he delegates her the roles of being the emissary sent to save his soul. Because she is from heaven and a messenger of god, she represents the divine trinity, thus the idyllic social reformation. Through her divine love of god she can show Dante God⤙s grace once he arrives in heaven. Because she is an angel she has the power to take him through heaven, unlike Virgil. Her supreme wisdom saw that Dante was lost in the dark wood of sin and through her love for him as well, she decided to help him. She represents Dante⤙s spiritual center because she is the end for which he strives. To get to her he must travel through Purgatory and Hell, thus gaining wisdom and knowledge of God⤙s love. Unlike any of the previous female characters, Beatrice contains all three qualities that the authors saw as part of a utopia. The female character depth seems to progressively expand as the need for greater change is needed. Odysseus may not need a great physical change because he is physically returning home, but this deeply contrasts with Dante⤙s need as he is not looking for home, but salvation. Therefore, Beatrice must be a more central and prevalent force because man has then grown from the empty warrior into the saved soul. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-19-200110:17 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 I'm proud of you Adolph ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I must admit...it is entertaining to see how you can spark a riot by just posting one thing. It does make life interesting. I'm glad you said you were sorry. That's great. I hope to see you around here often, even when you get your new job...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-19-200110:21 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |