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| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 500 posts... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ And I'm very happy indeed. Thankyou to ALL participents! @freegrace: Born again. You asked so here we go... On the serface, this is a snide polemic against born-again christianity, that is clear I think. But beyond that, it's also I think an attack on anyone who blindly follows a movement out of a desire to fit in, rather than a genuine belief in the movement/ideal. As such, it could be seen as a criticism of some of his own fanbase. One point others have made elsewere on this site is the fact that poeple who feel rejected by mainstream ideas (as well as people who have rejected the mainstream by a process of evaluation) often flock to the fringes, because for all our proud boasts of individuality, most people really just want to belong to something. This is the thrust of the song for me then, it's about uncritically accepting something, and the dubious joys of conformety over individuality. Hence the chorus "I'm someone else, I'm someone new, I'm someone stupid just like you..." The core message being, of course, think for yourselves. I must mention something else freegrace, regarding an earlier debate. I feel I may have been misrepresented by others with regard to my comments on differing societal structures. At no point was I trying to claim a eutopian state in Innuit or native american societies prior to western expansion into their homes. I was making a specific point about a specific area of society, to demonstrate that one thing you consider to be part of human nature is in fact sociatal programming, and that we believe in jealousy only due to cultural bias. This is NOT a racial issue, it's a cultural one, and that's all I was trying to say. I realise you will still disagree, and that's fine, but I feel like the perception is I was painting western culture as a devil and the poor natives as total innocents, and I freely acknolage it's never that simple, and in any case I was never asserting that. On that subjet, therefore, your comment about the incas is not relevent to the point I was making, because I wasn't saying anyone was incapable of evil or dumb behaviour, I was mearly asserting the lack of jealousy, even as an abstract concept, amoungst the native americans and innuit cultures, an idea supported by many anthropological studies, which I will try to hunt out for you to read if you wish. @beautifulDEATH: I found that book on Gnosticism. Some of freegraces was accurate, but I do feel there was some distortion in its reporting (unsurprising, since the roman church branded them 'heritics'). I must pull up on on point tohugh. They believed one had to master the phisical, to obtain the spiritual. Indeed they saw the death of Jesus as a code for the need to sacrifice phisicality to obtain spiritual enlightenment. This is not the same as hating the body, they did not consider it bad, just base. Some took grreat care of themselves, considered fitness as a form of 'mastery', whilst others were very self-indulgent. One major problem with trying to dissect gnosticism is that there were so many gnostic cults, each with their own texts, leaders, theories, rituals etc. and there was so much in-fighting that over-generalisations are very easy to draw (anouther major problem is that most gnostic texts were burned by the roman church, so much of what was believed in is lost forever). This is by no means a complete answer, so please feel free to fire away with any questions you have... Me. V. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-22-200105:38 AM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ As a PS, I can recomend this thread to anyone into rap or racial issues (freegrace and webster in particualr): Chuck D:Unleashed in Indianna! Enjoy. Me. V. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos [This message was edited by Rictus on 02-22-2001 at 07:32 AM.] posted 02-22-200106:40 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey Rictus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm sorry if you feel I misrepresented your point on the Eskimos. I think I did not read what you were saying carefully enough. As you said, I still believe that many selfish and sinful behaviors are inherent in man and not taught. I realized that Rosa disagreed with this point, just look at little children. They often love freely which is good, but they also can be extremely selfish. They must be taught to share. If selfishness and lack of consideration for other men was a learned condition, why must children be taught to do otherwise? Plus, I believe there are many more examples of cultures who, left to their own devices, demonstrate evil than the one that you gave who demonstrate good. I do think, however, from everything I've read on the Gnostics the information I provided was accurate. I do not dispute that everything Jesus did to conquer the physical was a good thing, but it was twisted by the gnostics because of their presuppositions. I will follow up with a more detailed description of why the gnostics had contempt for the body at a later date. Thanks for your description of born again. What do you think the valley of the dolls represent? What about the disco? I thought the disco was discussing the conservative evangelicals stupid attacks on dancing and labeling it a sin. I wasn't sure. I appreciate the reference to the rap thread. Did you see that we finally got 500 on the Tupac thread? That's two to reach 500 in one week. That's pretty neat. I don't know what I'll ever do if those two threads go away. Love, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 02-22-2001 at 09:56 AM.] posted 02-22-200109:51 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Prarie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Where have you been? Your last post seemed to suggest that you were "watching" for my response. Something suggests to me that my theory was right. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see you here for a little while until you decide that you are in the mood to attack again...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-22-200110:04 AM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace, hi, i'm grump. i'm not always a grump, but that's the name i was given by my parents, so there it is. j/k. i agree with what you said about children: they are not inherently selfless; if anything, they are often at their "worst" when they're discovering they "have" a self: the famed terrible twos, when they're really gaining language, using it to their own ends, and walking independently. but i don't know enough about child development studies in non-capitalist or -western countries to feel comfortable speculating about kids/human development in general.. i would be very very interested to find out if children go through very different developmental stages in different cultures-- wonder if freud's descriptions and analyses of children are particularly relevant only for the cultures many of us have grown up in (i am a great lover of freud-- does not mean i take everything he says to be "true" but he was a brilliant and tireless mind, was truly CURIOUS and wanted to understand human minds and was constantly revising his own theories in order to take into account new research, criticisms of him, his own evolving thought processes...) so with that said, i am intrigued by rictus's theories about what is inherent and what is socialized/ taught so subtly that it seems "natural" to us.<ETH>¿ ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 02-22-200110:09 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey Grump ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree that is interesting. I'm not sure how that is affected in other cultures. However, we even see evidences of it in infants. Infants are pretty dependent so I am not saying it is evil for them to do so (they don't "know any better"--even our phrases talk about socialization's role in training for selflessness), but they often place themselves above others in the way they act. However, I agree that as the concept of self develops that it is very challenging to overcome it. Thanks for your input...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-22-200110:57 AM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 50 million killed in the crusades, a christian war. Not to mention the millions of Africans dieing from AIDS right now because the pope has told them condoms are a sin. Still, that's OK, right? At least they'll be in heaven soon. Organised religion kills. It inspires biggotry, closeminded judgementalism, and violence ------------------------------------------------------------------------ RICTUS WILL NEVER ADMIT TO SAYING SOMETHING WRONG!!! HE WILL JUST TWIST THE WORDS AROUND OR SAY " THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT" HE'S A PUNK FAGGOT. A VENGEFUL LITTLE PUNK. HE IS NEVER WRONG. I'D LOVE THE OPPURTUNITY TO KICK HIS FUCKING PUNK FAGGOT ASS. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:05 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ KEEP FOLLOWING ME AROUND FAG BOY. SINCE YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOURSELF,I WILL DO THE SAME. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:09 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ KEEP FOLLOWING ME AROUND FAG BOY. SINCE YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOURSELF,I WILL DO THE SAME. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:12 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ KEEP FOLLOWING ME AROUND FAG BOY. SINCE YOU CAN'T CONTROL YOURSELF,I WILL DO THE SAME. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:14 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Guess what dude? You are not, and will never be in charge of the world, a fact for which I'm eternaly grateful. All the power you will ever have over me you are exercising right now. Hope it's enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Me. V. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-22-200101:15 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 YOUAREJUSTAPUNKFAGJUSTAPUNKJUSTAPUNKRKFVBNFKJGFLGFKGJGRKJGLRPEPDPFDKFKJGIGOGTPALKLKLKLKKL ------------------------------------------------------------------------ STOP FOLLOWING ME FAG ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:16 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 RICTUS LMAO!!! YOU'RE SO FULL OF SHIT ------------------------------------------------------------------------ YOUR PUNK FAG EGO IS SICKENING BUT YET FUNNY THATS WHY FAGGOTS LIKE YOU GET THEIR ASSES KICKED SO MUCH. I DON'T WANT TO KICK YOUR ASS BECAUSE YOUR A FAGGOT. I WANT TO KICK YOUR ASS BECAUSE YOU ARE A VENGEFUL PUNK WITH AN EGOTISTICAL ATTITUDE THAT IS CONDESCENDING. DEEP DOWN YOU ARE A MISERABLE FUCKWAD LOOKING FOR SOME KIND OF RESPECT ON TEENAGE FUCKWAD SITE. MAYBE YOU ARE A PERVERT PREDATOR. MAYBE YOU DON'T GET ANY RESPECT IN THE REAL WORLD, THAT'S WHY YOU COME IN HERE!! THAT'S PROBABLY IT......... BEING THE FAGGOT THAT YOU ARE. LOL. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200101:23 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 So Sad ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm sorry to see that this thread is turning to a war zone. Oh well, we were able to avoid the personal attacks for quite a while. I still love you guys but I wish we could talk about the deeper things. Nevertheless...I'll talk to you later Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-22-200102:39 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The reasons that the Africans dying from AIDS because they do not have condoms has nothing to do with either the Pope or the Catholic Church... posted 02-22-200103:09 PM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ just fuck off, will you and take the stretch with you !.... it's such a bother reading the messages... o.k. so you don't like this discussuion, but do you have to spoil it for everyone else ? (some posts back i admitted you have - to a certain extent - a point about people's already made up opinions - but by killing this discussion nothing will change) is it such a satisfaction to kill a discussion just because you have this private feud with rictus ? i don't know what problems you have, but really, i thought better of you.... and yes, i know, you don't care about criticism, blablabla... you don't have to say it... so, would you please edit your posts ?! - the most annoying thing about life is living, usually (marilyn manson) - posted 02-22-200103:11 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LMAO!!! SO TELL YOUR BUDDY RICTUS THAT!!! IT'S HIS QUOTE!!!! LMFAO!!!! YOU ASSHOLES ARE FUNNY!!!! I DIDN'T SAY IT!! RICTUS DID!!! LMAO!!! THANKS FOR MAKING THIS LAST 5 MINUTES FUN!! ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200103:32 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SO NOW I GOT THIS LORD ASSHOLE FOLLOWING ME AROUND. RICTUS MADE THE STATEMENT ABOUT THE POPE!!! LMAO!!! HE WASN'T TRYING TO BE SARCASTIC EITHER!!! OF COURSE HE MIGHT SAY THAT HE WAS. PUNKS NEVER ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG. THEY'RE TOO HARD HEADED. ALL I ASKED WAS A SIMPLE REQUEST. STOP FOLLOWING ME AROUND. DON'T POST IN MY THREADS. AND.......... I SAID. I WILL DO THE SAME. UNDERSTAND???? YET??? LORD??? RICTUS???? IT'S NOT AN ORDER. IT'S A COMPROMISE. ONLY THE BABY SHEEP FOLLOW ME TO HARASS posted 02-22-200103:37 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey Rosa ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just wanted to say. Long time no talk. How's life treating you these days? Did you enjoy the concert that had you so happy? I hope you are doing well...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-22-200103:59 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Catholic church is massively strong in Africa, due to the enthusiastic and often brutal missionarry work conducted there by europeans when they first arived. There are areas of Africa that are intensly catholic. When thew pope speeks these people listen. When he says that using condoms is a sin against the lord, they listen. AIDS is ENDEMIC in Africa now. This is not supposition. Draw your own conclutions. I'm not saying catholisism is the only factor - there is also poverty and cultural conditions which are condicive to the spread of HIV - but I believe it IS a factor, part of the problem. @freegrace: Valley of the dolls is a movie referance. I've seen most of the film, and I intensly disliked it. It was a mockery of soap opera culture, with fake charicters engaged in shallow affairs etc. It was ment as a commentry on soap opera and it's 'dumbing down' of relationships, but the cariciture is so effective that I found the film excruciating to watch. 'Put down your disco...' I think you understand the referance! See, it's not so hard to analize, just a little lateral thinking... I do think it's a great song, one of the first ones on the album to 'grab' me. I'm glad you found it. As far as the other debate, I would point out two things. 1. Selfishness is not the same as jealousy. I can want something someone else has, and take it from them or refuse to share it, but I'm not acting out of jealousy, just selfishness. If I want something someone else has, I don't want it just because they have it (rthat would be jealousy). Children are inherrently selfish (untill the age of 8 most children can't understand the concept of others as 'real people' as they are), but it does not follow that they are inherrently jealous. THAT we teach them, I believe. 2. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Plus, I believe there are many more examples of cultures who, left to their own devices, demonstrate evil than the one that you gave who demonstrate good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Possibly true, but not the point I was trying to make. All I have been trying to demonstrate is that jealousy is not inherrent in the human condition. Me. V. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 02-22-200104:35 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |