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Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Thanks Lord of the Nazgul and Wang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I appreciate your input...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-27-200109:12 AM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace, your comment quote below from page 29 is what prompted by rumination on "free gifts" vs. giving for something back. i'm not accusing you of selfishness; i don't know you much at all. but this is what prompted me thinking: 63D quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adolph...Interesting post on Satanism. Yes, I agree with you that if all you care about is yourself than that is all you will have. That is very insightful what you said. I also believe that the Bible is right when it says that you reap what you sow. I always try to be nice to people because I know that God will bless me back somehow. It may not be with that specific person, but I always try to lend love even when it is no t wanted or rejected. If you plant seeds of love you will reap love. Plant seeds of hate and you will always reap hate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i agree with you about reaping what you sow, but was repsonding to the comment about "knowing that God will bless [you] back." what do you think? ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-27-200110:08 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Ah I see ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, the main motivation of being good is not the reward but to please God in my view. However, I believe that the law of sowing and reaping is a true law. It is not that I love so I can get something in return, but it is because I can depend on God that I know I will always receive something in return. It is like a marriage. If a man enjoys loving his wife for the sake of loving his wife that is a great thing. It is an even greater thing when she gives back love and meet his needs as well. If I gave the roses and said nothing gives me greater joy than to honor and cherish you and the girl kissed me, I would love the kiss and be glad I gave her the roses, however my original intention was always to honor and cherish her. Good question Grump. I hope this clears things up a bit. Thanks...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-27-200111:44 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Grump ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One other point of clarification. I looked up the definition of the word selfish in the online Webster's dictionary and this is what I found: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others 2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Selfishness does not mean that one does not derive any benefit from something (I think that is a concept that we get from Kant that I consider erroneous), but that the benefit is to the disregard of others. Serving God is the ultimate act of selflessness. By being a good person, I put others' interests ahead of mine as well as the interests of God. While we should serve God whether we get blessing or not, it is amazing to me that God would bless us anyway. It is the icing on the cake. Not only that He would but that He is faithful in doing so in this life and the next. Hopefully this clarifies my point. Thanks and God Bless, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 02-27-2001 at 03:48 PM.] posted 02-27-200102:10 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace: i think i understand your point/ beliefs. your "marriage analogy" makes sense when i imagine the context of being able to rely on someone to be looking out for your best interests, to be there when you need him/ her. i think i can understand, partially or somehow, your faith/ belief/ feeling/ knowledge/ whatever that god is "there" in a trustworthy way, and i imagine it feels good. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-27-200107:46 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ oh..i think our thread is getting archived! THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-27-200108:03 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ really, devilmunchkin? why? ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-27-200108:17 PM Stitches Member 224 Posts Member since: 01-21-2001 Hullo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi all. How are you this fine evening? I'm very glad I stumbled apon this thread.....I've enjoyed reading it. I myself was raised by very religious parents....but something pushed me away. I do belive that I have religious beliefs....but they do not fit in any specific catagory. They are,well,my own personal beliefs. Like I do believe that there is a higher power out there.....a controling force of some sort. But i'm not sure if I would call it "God". I reffer to it as the All. It is everything...life ,death,earth,sky,animals,humans,our vey spirits. My image of higher power most relates to something of a wiccan sort. I really do fear that it would take much to long for me to fully explain my religious beliefs though. they can get very complicated. I have a question for Freegrace though.....How do you keep your faith? When i was a child,and all the world was easy to me,it was easy to have faith. I knew that God loved me,and that I was gonna go to heaven. (i was baptist) As years passed and I entered my early teens,my family started to have a lot of problems. And I prayed and Prayed to god to help me...help my family....but things only got worse. I was shortly diagnosed with manic deppression at the ripe age of 11. And my heart was becoming so distraught.....All I wanted was god to keep true to his word and help me. is he not supposed to help his children in their time of need? I even consider the idea that,"This is his plan.....it's all gonna be ok." But it wasn't.....I went to a mental institution for harming myself. That was the first year i ever tried to kill myself......I was only a child,and this was all happening much to fast for me. And I started to resent him......Why didn't he help me? Why was he abandoning me? I strted to wonder if he was even there.....And as more years progressed,I didn't think he was there. It was easier that way......Cuz if he was up there, watching my life and dictating what was going to happen to me, I would have hated him. 5 years of my life were a living hell i would not wish on my worst enemy. And I could only wonder if he was responsible? But great thought and meditation on the subject lead me to a better conclusion. I am a strong believer in fate....thus everything happens for a reason. My life was used as a tool of fate to makle me the person i am today.....And "God" had nothing to do with it. He is supposed to be a being of love,compasion,and forgiveness. Thus,he could not have been responsible for my misfortunes. Thus,"he"in the actual form must not be there. But who am i to say or know....I know no more than the next guy. This is simply my theory and I would love your opinion "Life is a dream.......And dreams are dead....." I JUST WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM MYSELF,BUT NOW I AM DEEPPER THAN I EVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED. AND THERE IS NO ESCAPE FROM MY IMPRISONMENT OF A MIND......." posted 02-27-200109:48 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ bump and run. (variation on a liz phair song)<ETH>¿ ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-28-200107:52 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ahhh! Grump!!!! I LOVE Liz Phair! My fav song (i KNOW this isn't theology!) is SUpport System. I thought the bbs was being archived because the posts have been really slow and moving around as of late. Quite odd. ANd if they arn't presently, i'm fairly sure they will soon, Isn't this about the time they archived before? What about Christianity itself? Perhaps the Bible really is a good book of ideas. But don't youthink people and all the types of Churches have completley corrupted the whole point? Nihilist shared this sentiment with me and i have to agree with him. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 02-28-200107:59 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ devilmunchkin: i guess that would depend on whether you think "the point" was a good one.. whatever it may be. i don't think there ever was a single "point" to christianity-- there have been many, they have changed over the years with social, cultural, institutional, economic shifts... i personally am not interested in religions with a single figure as a site of complete power. nor do i believe in fate (with all due respect, stitches). i don't think things are as ordered or planned or scripted as so many religions and religious thinking seems to assume. to me, those ideas (fate, all-powerful beings) are absolutely depressing... FAR more depressing than atheism, which i don't find depressing at all, frankly. i find it pretty... healthy. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-28-200108:14 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Stitches, Grump and Devilmunchkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stitches...Robert Pyne offers a great point at how Christ's life sufferings can give hope, "It is true that Jesus knew His sufferings would be temporary and that He would soon be restored to glory. However, it is not true that our own sufferings are utterly pointless and absurd. A high view of the providence of God affirms that all things ultimately have purpose, even evil acts which appear to be completely senseless. Jesus'sufferings serve as a model for us, not simply because He experienced pain, but because He experienced hope in the midst of pain.â¤? This is a truly powerful statement. It points to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith as a person who not only understands our pain, but also can provide the truth that provides hope in the midst of it. Romans 5: 3-5 says, "And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." The fact of pain is not cause to negate the existence of God but to embrace it as hope in the midst of pain. I can't completely relate to your situation because I accepted Christ 5 years ago. I did not grow up in the church. However, after accepting Christ I had two girls who I planned on marrying cheat on me with someone else, which was probably the most painful thing that every happened to me. However, the Bible never offers pain free living. Just look at most of the main characters. All but one of Jesus' disciples were executed. The one who wasn't was John who was placed in a pot of boiling oil and tortured for much of his life. The prophets were mostly executed. The Christian life is not without suffering but hope in the midst of it. Believe me, there were times when I wanted to quit. Almost on a daily basis. The only thing that got me through was God's grace and His word. Grump...Good to see you buddy. Thanks for your feedback. Devilmunchkin...Hello. As always it is good to see you. For all the bad the church has done, the history of doctrine has given humanity and insight about the bible that they would not have received otherwise. Joe Parle 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 02-28-200108:50 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ goodnight, all. will check back here tomorrow. with any luck, rictus will be back on... i think he's kind of busy lately. ciao ciao. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 02-28-200109:03 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Grump ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I hope you got some good rest. Hopefully Rictus will be back around. He always has good insights. Later my friend, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-01-200108:42 AM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace: not enough sleep, but i seem to be doing ok in spite of it. catch ya soon.. grumpygrump ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##11 posted 03-01-200109:07 AM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stitches, I wanna address what you said, too. There was a time I mostly lost my faith. I had been in Catholic school for nine years where God was shoved down my throat every day in the way that the dogma taught. I had a hard time, too. Not as hard as yours, but it got me thinking. What I realized was that God shows his love by not interfering with our lives. He doesn't come down from the sky and wreak vengence on our oppressors. But He does try to show us that he is there for us through the world around us. Even when the world completely sucks, you can look at a tree or the sky and see something beautiful and know that there is beauty in life no matter how crappy it looks. There will always be a bird chirping. The thing to do is to look at this in a new way. To become interested in these small things, to be curious about life. But now I'm beginning to sound too much like Ricky from American Beauty for my own good, so...*runs away*... posted 03-01-200102:38 PM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ wow... everyone is being nice again.... ... what with so many apologies, should i apology for the sheep post ?!... hm..., anyway, a-g, good to see you're o.k again... sorry i didn't reply to your last post on the fascism topic, but i think we agree on many points anyway... freegrace... i don't see much of a discussion right now.... give me something to think about... ask me something.....anything... posted 03-01-200103:04 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Rosa and Lord of the Nazgul ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lord of the Nazgul...My approach is a little different in that I see a personal God who is extremely involved in my life. I see God as a friend, a guide and the Father I never had. I see nature as evidence of God but I believe He is more accurately revealed through Special Revelation (e.g. the Bible). I was raised Catholic as well and left the church because it left too many questions unanswered. Then I abandoned God until five years ago when I became a Christian. The fact that God is in control of events, even the painful ones, gives me hope that all this will work out for my good (and His good) as His child in this life and the next. Rosa, in a previous post you mentioned that you believe that the Greeks had a similar notion of God's justice and love that was called hubris. Can you give some more details (I'm not very familiar)? Can you explain to me what you think about that and why you believe it acurately preserves God's justice and mercy (I realize that this is in a sense, hypothetical, if someone does not believe in God, which I think you said in the past you are not sure but I'm probably misquoting you and making you mad but I'm getting this from the discussion about how could God exist and let people die tragic deaths like the accident in Germany). Wow! That was a runon sentence if I ever saw one. Also, you probably witnessed my ongoing debate with Prarie about the bible manuscripts. As an anthropologist, what are your thoughts? Here is the link I referred him to: http://apologetics.hypermart.net/nt/hasthebiblebeenpreserved.html (you may have to scroll down a little ways to see the text). I'd love to hear your opinions. On a personal note, how's the PhD coming along? I'm looking at PhD programs myself but not exited about the possibility of spending another 6 years in school. Are you doing better after New Years? Have you found the courage to love without pushing away? How are things with your friend who said the stuff that really made you think that night? Is Veronique a French name? Aren't you German? Why were you named Veronique? Is that enough? Feel free to answer all or none of that in your own timing. It is great to see you again...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-01-200103:47 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Good Quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There was a time when if Jesus could have, he would have turned his back on the whole mess and gone away. But he couldn't. He couldn't because he saw you. He saw you betrayed by those you love. He saw you with a body which gets sick and a heart which grows weak. He saw you in your own garden of gnarled trees and sleeping friends. He saw you staring into the pit of your own failures and the mouth of your own grave. > > The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-01-200103:50 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I definitely believe that there is some sort of fate out there and that things happen for a reason, I'm just not sure whether God is the right word for this fate. I really don't know if He's the one controlling all of this, because I haven't quite figured out what He is yet. Unfortunately, I haven't even gotten used to my own ideas, and I still see God as the big guy with the beard who lives in the clouds. But philosophies take some time to formulate and mull over, and I've only just begun... posted 03-01-200103:59 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |