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	Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile \| register \| faq \| search \| forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic \| next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Lord of the Nazgúl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That's great. The faith journey is definitely a long process. I still am a ways a way before I can even begin to understand God. I think it was John Calvin who said, "Anyone who thinks he can comprehensively explain God has severely misunderstood him." For me, I spent a lot of time studying many religions and then processing my own thoughts. I didn't think there was much truth in organized religion because of my experiences in the Catholic church, so I set out to define that truth on my own. As I read the Qur'an, Tao Te Chung, the Rig Vedas, and philosophers like Kant, Martin Buber, etc, I took the things I liked and rejected the things I disdained. However, at the end, by God's grace I came to the conclusion that the Bible had the best description of God I could find. Unfortunately, many Christians have ruined the deep truths of Christianity by leading pathetic lives. For that I am sorry. I will pray for you as you continue on this journey. Hopefully some of the information on this thread will be profitable for that. God Bless...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-01-200106:23 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yeah, I agree about that Christian thing. I've found that the best religion comes from The Bible. Not all of it, but the teachings of Christ. He certainly had a lot of good ideas. I don't understand in the least people who insult Him (or him, however you'll have it ). To take the Buddhist side of me, He was an enlightened being... posted 03-01-200107:42 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i don't think it's neccessarily Christ, but Christianity itself. The churches have become centers for Greed, Gluttony, Sodomy and other deadly sins forbidden by their own text. How can the church or any of its members expect to gain followers with such hypocrisy and corruption within it's folds??? THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 03-01-200107:45 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That's why Christians like me don't follow the teachings of the Church, but instead the teachings of Christ himself... posted 03-01-200107:48 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin and Lord of the Nazgul ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think the church has messed up a lot. However, I think that all humans are hypocrites. Look at how many people glorify Manson's lyrics and then fall into the same traps of conforming, saying things to be cool, having popularity contests, etc on this bbs. The challenge with Christianity is that it is so easy to fail because many of the things Jesus taught are countercultural, counterinstinctual, and difficult to do (love your enemy, turn the cheek, do not fornicate, etc.). However, it's hard to be a hypocrite believe in a system that says that it's OK to have premarital sex, everyone goes to heaven, etc because it is more in line with our natural inclinations. Lord of the Nazgul, I spoke to Beautiful Death about this. I think people in general are pretty selective about which of Jesus' teachings they follow. I think if one follows Jesus they should do it 100%. This isn't necessarily directed at you (please understand me, I'm not trying to be negative, argumentative, or judgmental), I would just be interested to know how you interpret some of the harder sayings of Jesus. For instance: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NAS John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Once again, I am not saying this in a judgmental way. I really appreciate your insight. It helps me to understand the perspective of others and how they interpret Jesus's words. I hope you are not offended. I'm not trying to corner you or debate you, but just to understand you. Thanx...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-01-200108:37 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No person could possibly follow Jesus' teachings 100%, especially when you consider that the four Gospels don't say the exact same thing in regards to all of it. So what I'm going to respond with are my first instincts. I'm not going to mull over these for long, because I'm sure each of them could take years of pondering. And so, gut reactions: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ As my beliefs steal a lot from Buddhism, I'd read this as something about attaining enlightenment (whatever that may be). If one sees Jesus as an enlightened being, one accepts this as true and becomes a step closer to enlightenment (immortality) himself. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Much like God himself does not judge (until the end, some say). What he does is give guidelines for what each individual can do in order to be saved from eternal damnation (as some religions would have it). Jesus' teachings were the guidelines by which a person could follow in order to get into heaven, and in effect be saved. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here, I'd read it as more of believing in the ideas of Jesus than in him himself. I know a lot of non religios people who don't deny that Jesus lived. They just deny He was the Son of God. But if you believe in Jesus (truly believe, whatever that may be), then you most likely believe in his teachings. The quotation was "believed in the name," which I take to mean believed in the things that that name represents. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Once again, if I take the enlightenment path, no one reaches enlightenment without following many of the things Christ said. You can donate food to the homeless all you want, but if you don't love your neighbor or teach people the way you'd like to be treated (the main "Golden" rule), then you're far from being a perfect being and reaching nirvana, or heaven, or whatever you want to call it. Must study Latin more...test tomorrow ... posted 03-01-200109:23 PM Stitches Member 224 Posts Member since: 01-21-2001 Hullo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREEGRACE : Hi! thanx for eplying to my last post. It's not really an issue of pain....While there were many painful years in my life,I felt like God had turned his back on me. I thought we had that "personal"relationship and he was gonna be there for me,to comfort me. I never asked him to avenge me...but yet,to be a comforting friend. I wanted to know why he gave me these problems.....like manic depression,anger managment problems.....these menatl chemical imbalances. As a child I thought it unfair. I never really gave up all faith.....my faith just changed. I studied many religions and found holes in all it seemed. Nothing seemed right to me. So....I,over time,just kinda constructed my own belif structure. It is really an interesting mix of about 4-5 different religions,most of which are not main stream. But it makes sense to me.....and it feel right. I feel more secure. It is just a personal decision,as each individual is entitled to his or her own. LORD : I do see beauty in the world...but in a more natural sense. I can look at a tree,and i see smething alive. it's beautiful...just like my love for animals. They are just like people,and you can communicate with them if you are careful enought to listen. Everything has it's own spirit or aura. It's like one universal energy.....divided in to two main catagories of positive and negative. This is the part where i interperate Karma with Fate. it can get confusing.....do you guys see why i don't try to explain my religious beliefs? They never seem to make sense to anyone but me... "Life is a dream.......And dreams are dead....." I JUST WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM MYSELF,BUT NOW I AM DEEPPER THAN I EVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED. AND THERE IS NO ESCAPE FROM MY IMPRISONMENT OF A MIND......." posted 03-01-200109:53 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I can't explain them because they always sound good in my head but can't be articulated in words. ... posted 03-01-200109:57 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have read everything up to this point, and I will return and reply fully soon (an epic post is brewing). I wanted you all to know that I am very happy at the continuation in this thread. I've just started work, so I will be here less, but I WILL still be here. Thankyou for the respect and kindnbess you show each other, and know that showing kindness and respect is never a compromise. Me. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." ^Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.^ "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 03-02-200109:31 AM Plastic Jesus Member 2733 Posts Member since: 06-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have now hopelessly dropped out of this conversation. It's a shame really since this thread was and still is an interesting one. I just had a great thought I decided to share with the people who post to this thread. Why don't you make a book out of this conversation? I know that sounds like a joke but I'm actually partly serious. It would be a helluva hard job to do but it could be fun. Just think about it... ---------------------- "Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra The Plastic Jesus Cult plastic.jesus@antisocial.com Official Naked Runners Club: no.6 Randon Quote club 2001 - member No. Â3?4 posted 03-02-200109:42 AM F?agile Fusion Member 2114 Posts Member since: 06-25-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What an amazing thread. Probably the best ever. (A Gift from Wang) A natural chaotic pattern: fdg35t3qtg34e NARCOTICS MEMBER ---------------------------- FRAGILE FUSION: sound "Creation not commodity" www.ffsound.com posted 03-02-200109:49 AM diablita Junior Member 88 Posts Member since: 01-10-2001 DAMMIT PLASTIC JESUS! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please don't feed these individuals' egos like that! This is all rehashed crap that's been reinvented every time some little christian kid grows up and tries to make sense of the nonsensical that was pushed on them by their "well-meaning" parents. JESUS, IF "HE" EVER EXISTED LIKE YOU EXIST NOW, IS DEAD! Get over it already. If he and his beliefs or agenda were so all powerful, why does the world still suck? How some over 2/3 of the world could care less about the guy? The only reason anyone cares about Jesus Christ is because its the greatest political scam of human history...getting human beings to beLIEve in a mysterious force centered around one mythological individual, WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE EXISTED, but at this point proving its existence is simply downright pyrrhic. When you simply analyze the historical global "conversion" or "assimilation" into Christianity, most of its "converts" were usually acquired by coersion, whether by force, intimidation, genocide, along with all the classic symptoms and methods of warfare in general. Which thereby exposes it for what it is--it an intergenerational political machine with a brutal history of murder, "DO WHAT I WILT YOU TO DO," and no true hold on any type of Outside Higher Power, outside of human intention, will and force. Why do you not understand this? Can't you deprogram yourself from cultic beliefs? How does it need to be explained so that you can understand it despite your insistence on trying to rationalize the irrational? But keep defending it, maybe "God" will thank you for it after you're dead. BUT I DOUBT IT! posted 03-02-200109:56 AM Plastic Jesus Member 2733 Posts Member since: 06-19-2000 diablita ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I like this thread because it's not dominated neither by Christians nor atheists. Both parties are equal and therefore things discussed aren't left one sided, there are different opinions and that's good. Based on what you wrote I don't think you've really got to know this thread so well. It's not all about arguing wheter or not Christ existed, there's much more to it than that. You may have a point in your writings but if Christianity really is just a scam then isn't it good that it gets discussed? I don't like Christianity and in a matter of fact I agree with alot of what you said but that's exactly why I want to discuss it. Let's face it, Christianity affects everyone, like it or not. I still like this thread. What ever the subject is I think it always needs to be discussed. With enough argumentation and some healthy questioning. Let's just uncover the myth and see what it really is. ---------------------- "Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra The Plastic Jesus Cult plastic.jesus@antisocial.com Official Naked Runners Club: no.6 Randon Quote club 2001 - member No. Â3?4 posted 03-02-200110:24 AM diablita Junior Member 88 Posts Member since: 01-10-2001 Plastic Jesus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's just that I didn't really want to bother reading this entire thing because it stinks more of egotism and pseudo-analysis than actual meeting of minds attempting to analyze facts and truth. This is what happens when you get poorly educated children to defend what the older deceivers have cleverly disguised as fact in their attempts to carry on the intergenerational control agenda that sometimes almost seems a natural correllary to the human aging process. Also, the fact that you have also related yet another unspoken assumption, which is well hidden to the christian apologists, that in the theology realm, there are only two parties that could adequately handle this issue (which you have categorized as "atheists" and "christians"). This would bring to mind another unspoken premise that only Christians are capable of adequately expounding upon the actual existence of a "higher being" god/goddess, to the exclusion of those who hold alternative perceptions of the nature of "higher powers." I would most certainly beg to differ with this assumption. In fact, if I were to choose to debate the matter of the existence of consciousnesses in the universe who have higher abilities and awarenesses than human beings, in general, Christians would be the LAST people who could objectively argue such. There are so many hidden assumptions in the christian culture and dogma that it might be nearly impossible for a christian defender to strive beyond the conditioning and indoctrination inherent in the christian culture. Christianity is not a universal truth. Very few elements of it contain "universal truths." Spend more time analyzing each of your cherished beliefs, and look for exceptions to every truism you in your small time of awareness can find. Also, be mindful that christian defenders enjoy separating the actions from the beliefs, they do not enjoy holistic analysis of the doctrine, adherents, or the present status of where this Belief SYSTEM has led global humanity. The last thing they admit is personal responsibility to the current status of the world, and how their fellow adherents are manipulating the destiny and health of the Planet Earth. "Those aren't true christians." Well, then would the True Christians please stand up, take some fucking responsibility for the other adherents to their "SYSTEM" and ask their fucking god to rid this planet of the Fake Christians???? And PJ... if you and anyone else in this thread were truly intent on demystifying the devil, god, jesus christ or any belief system... you would be well served by taking the time to engage in more productive activities such as personal research regarding these subjects, from all quarters. Otherwise, the majority of the opinions expressed in this thread, especially from those of the christians, simply reflect a child's reasoning without benefit of factual analysis. Hit and miss. and don't be too discouraged...BUT IT'S ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE. posted 03-02-200110:54 AM Plastic Jesus Member 2733 Posts Member since: 06-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree with a lot of the things you say but I still don't understand why a conversation such as this shouldn't be done. Even if Christians are stupid, illogical, two-faced liars they can still defend their belief and try to justify it. I, like you, like facts, truth. And that's why I like to post to this thread. I want to be sure that what I believe is true really is. I'm not a christian because, to me, christianity doens't offer truth. With this thread I'm maybe trying to make these, and myself, more aware of what is true and what has been created in our minds. Both parties think the other one is blind and with discussions like this someone migh actually open his/her eyes to the truth, what ever that is. There's a good word in Finnish that, unfortunately, can't be really translated to English. It means something like 'to prove one's opinion is true'. And that's what I want, from myself and from others. I still believe you haven't researched this topic enough to call it childish. Of course not everyone's opinions are all that mature (I know mine aren't!) but there are some really educated and smart replies here. And besides, so what if all this has been "done before"? As long as I still believe progress is possible I don't think repeating is futile. To think that something can't be done anymore because it didn't work the last time would just be giving up. And besides, why can't the kids have their fun? ---------------------- "Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra The Plastic Jesus Cult plastic.jesus@antisocial.com Official Naked Runners Club: no.6 Randon Quote club 2001 - member No. Â3?4 posted 03-02-200111:19 AM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 diablita, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This thread has discussed everything from evolution to abortion to inclusive truth to creationism to biology to morals to hell to reincarnation so it doesn't all have to deal with existence of a higher being. Plus, no one is assuming Christians are the only ones capable of discussing a god on this thread. If a Jew, Muslim, or anyone else would like to join the thread they need only to post. It's just that freegrace, a Christian, and Rictus were the two principle founders of this topic. Nothing is being merely restated or is "rehashed crap" as you so elegantly put it. Any information or suggestions are put into the context of the conversation. I agree that religion is illogical, but it has been already established that it takes a leap of faith to believe. Some are willing to rely on hope. Others on more concrete proof, but it still has an amount of faith required, albeit less faith. - Mike Sorrow - posted 03-02-200112:51 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i agree with plastic jesus and mike sorrow. 'nuff said. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-02-200101:48 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace: what is the problem with consensual sex between people who aren't married? why do you understand this to be an inherently bad thing? i have never understood that logic except as a way for institutions to control the behavior of their subjects/ citizens/ devotees. to me, it is a purely personal decision and shouldn't have anything inherently to do with ethical systems or philosophies. then again, i don't believe in god, so i guess i'm not in a good position to understand theological defenses of celibacy. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-02-200102:03 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am too intelligent to believe or have faith ! ADOLF=SARCASTIC NEGATIVE INSTIGATING S.O.B. GANDHI=SERENE PEACEFUL PERSON WHO WOULD RATHER AVOID CONFLICT posted 03-02-200102:40 PM Tu Es Petra Member 796 Posts Member since: 02-16-2001 Free Grace --------Just another example of who you are conversing with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://marilynmansonbbs.artistdirect.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10019&f=854194987&m=5981948141&p=1 I don't like the people on this site much. I can't respect many people here. No matter how intelligent they are. ADOLF=SARCASTIC NEGATIVE INSTIGATING S.O.B. GANDHI=SERENE PEACEFUL PERSON WHO WOULD RATHER AVOID CONFLICT posted 03-02-200110:33 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic \| next oldest topic >> \| Page:Next Page \| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50