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Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Grump and Hoodwink ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Grump...Thanks for the research. I do believe that if only 18% of the people in Africa are Catholic, it is inaccurate to say that the Pope's banning of contraceptives are a major cause for the exacerbation of the AIDS virus...a minor one maybe but not major. Hoodwink...I'd love to commend you on your work but I believe that a great deal of it was taken from "An Open Response to Dr. Laura" email that is circulating around. Fortunately, I've already made a response to it on this bbs on several occasions and we discussed the issue of homosexuality and the law at length on this thread. Please don't advocate me as someone who advocates the Old Testament law, because I have done the opposite. You will see in my posts about homosexuality, I never even discussed the Leviticus passage. Here is how I responded to the Dr. Laura letter: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To begin with, I argue that this points out the critical difference between Christianity and Judaism. If a Jew is consistent, as Dr. Laura should be, they are still required to be under the law. Consequently, as the letter writer points out, several things like playing football, not participating in the Sabbath are direct violations of the law and they should have to experience the consequences. The law was designed to demonstrate our need for Christ. Galatians 3:13-14 says,"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a cursefor us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on A TREE"-- 3:14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:23-26 says, "3:23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 3:24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Clearly as a result of Christ's blood shed on our behalf, those who share the faith of Jesus are not under the law. If your question is regarding homosexuality, the New Testament and Old Testament testify that it is wrong. There is not a single positive statement in God's word about it. For example 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says,"9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." 1 Timothy 1:10 says, " 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching" Clearly, homosexuality is put on the same level as murder, lying, drunkeness etc. Keep in mind that each of these tendencies can be inherited genetically (alcoholism, violence, etc) so that is not a reason to discount what the Bible says. However, as 1 Corinthians 6:11 points out, there is hope in the cleansing power of Christ. Heterosexual sin (fornication, adultery) is just as serious as homosexual and both can be forgiven by the blood of Jesus. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-06-200111:02 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Here is the email I believe Hoodwink is using ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My recommendation is that you site the source befor you make the assertion on the bbs: Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I Have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge With as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Laws and how to best follow them. (a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the door is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? (b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? (c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. (d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? (e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? (f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.I don't agree. Can you settle this? (g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? (h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? (i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? (j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-06-200111:05 AM Hoodwink Junior Member 10 Posts Member since: 03-06-2001 Score one for Jesus! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I've learned to disregard much of what is written in the Bible. Thanks for reinforcing that. You don't think it's at all possible that I was drawing a comparison between you and the lovely Dr. Schlesinger, do you? quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If your question is regarding homosexuality, the New Testament and Old Testament testify that it is wrong. There is not a single positive statement in God's word about it. For example 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says,"9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Right. "Some are more equal than others." [This message was edited by Hoodwink on 03-06-2001 at 03:41 PM.] posted 03-06-200103:34 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i don't see any text as sacred. not the bible. not any text. i study texts for a living and see none as sacred. i don't quote other people's words to justify my own actions or beliefs. i am annoyed when others do it. dr. laura is a menace. heterosexism is annoying at best, murderous at worst. t ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-06-200103:52 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hoodwink and Grump ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hoodwink...my only point was that if you are going to make a comparison be explicit about it. Don't take other people's ideas and make them seem as though they are your own. Grump...I completely understand. My only point to people who say that is, to write down your beliefs on: Origin Sin Salvation from whatever you define sin is (preserving mercy and justice) destiny (where we ultimately go or do) I have found few who are able to provide explanations for these points as well as the Bible. Most people have trouble writing their own beliefs down. If that is the case, how can they be better than the bible which was composed over thousands of years by many authors and is still used as a spiritual guide by many people today? I have heard it said that one needs a PhD just to begin to understand Buddhism. Ockham's razor pretty much takes care of that as a test for truth. I just think that if people were to write their own ideas down and compare them to the bible they would find them to be grossly inadequate. Sincerely, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 03-06-2001 at 05:04 PM.] posted 03-06-200104:54 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace: i don't deny that there are beautiful and interesting things to be read in the bible. but as i said, i don't take any text to be sacred. i'm not in competition with the bible, and i don't find the concepts of sin or the afterlife to be particularly interesting ones to spend a whole lot of time thinking about in the first place. i probably ecould write interesting and compelling things on those topics if i cared, but i simply don't. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-06-200105:35 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Grump ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is fine. I am merely pointing out that for many people's big arguments (not necessarily) of how individuals do not need the bible or anything else to discern truth seem to fall short when compared with the wisdom of the bible...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-06-200108:54 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm still here - reading every blessed word. Just thought you should know. p.n. "Yeah, hes like an STD." - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 03-07-200103:46 PM Lord of the Nazgúl Member 1369 Posts Member since: 02-02-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You may not consider it sacred, but you should respect the beliefs of others that it is sacred and should thereby be treated as such. I don't like seeing anyone deface anything, especially something millions hold as sacred. Not saying that you do, but there are people out there who do things like that... posted 03-07-200104:13 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ to answer freegrace lettered questions: 1) the bull. you should not be performing animal sacrifice in the first place. the final law in the bible as stated by MOses said that animal sacrifice was to only occur at the Temple of Jerusalem (this created a centralizationwithin the church). Since the Assyrians destroyed it, animal sacrifice is no longer perfromed..problem solved. (plus, even if You DID...hi..it's bbq!) 2) sell your daughter into slavery?? you will eventually be humbled like Josephs brothers...i bet you shall not want that. 3)as far as having sex with a woman while she's seeing her friend. well, by your law, you shouldn't be unless you are married (sex according to leviticus, consumates marriage. you have sex, you ARE then married..look at the whole isaac/rachel/other woman who i forget her name incident). a wife will nto take offense tothis. 4) you can't own anadians and you shouldn't own mexicans either. you are supposed to treat every man as your brother (jesus teaching if i am correct). would you want to be owned by YOUR brother? 5) you yourself cannot kill him. ONly the chief priest can judge this as in the stoning of Akin who stole idols and loot from the canaanites. Even a King cannot proclaim a death penalty because he does not have direct connecitons to god. 6) hmm..i want to agree with your friend on the shellfish thing but i'm not sure. It seems to me that after eating unclean food, if one goes through the ritual cleansing method that he shall be clean again. I'm not sure if sodomy HAS a cleaning time. 7) Glasses have nothing to do with approaching the altar. It has always been a matter of cleanliness if god's sight. i.e. if you were not clean you could not appraoch the altar. This is why only and high priests could only approach the altar inside the tabernacle because they were the ones considered to be clean. 8) hair cut of friend: again. it is not for you to say BUT there is always the eye for an eye monologue by moses. 9) i don't think todays' footballs are made from pigs. even if they are, touching a dead pig refers to touching it with and end in mind of eating it. 10) your humour is so awesome! THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 03-07-200104:24 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 devilmunchkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uhh...someone else posted that. He pasted an excerpt from a letter to Dr. Laura Schlesinger. "Yeah, hes like an STD." - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 03-07-200104:26 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i didn't know...but it still is good to comment THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 03-07-200104:54 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 Lord of the whatchamacallit and anyone else who might care to hear: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ i loved when manson ripped out pages of the bible and defaced it. i don't have a problem with anyone destroying or defacing "sacred" symbols. period. "symbols" and texts are not sacred to me. if they're sacred to others, that's for others to take offense. i personally have no problem with that kind of expression and would never speak out against others' right to deface, defame or disrespect whatever the hell they want to. i don't repect things just for the sake of respecting them, regardless of others' beliefs. i don't disrespect or respect people because they are or are not christian, are or are not buddhist, are or are not atheists, are or are not 'spiritual' in some other sense. respect, for me, is based on people's way of moving through life, not what beliefs they adhere to. <ETH>¯ ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-07-200105:15 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ p.s. hi devilmunchkin! ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-07-200105:18 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey everybody ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just checking in... Devilmunchkin...Pretty impressive knowledge of the OT for someone who has only studied it over one semester. I am jealous. I hate to see what will happen when you study the NT. Grump...Hello my friend Prarie...Hey. Sorry to see that Order left although you may not be as sorry as I. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-07-200105:27 PM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ hey freegrace. your response to devilmunchkin made me laugh. cute. what are you up to these days, freegrace? how are your studies coming? g. ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-07-200107:05 PM Prairie Nigger Member 1359 Posts Member since: 11-01-2000 The Christ Myth ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I spent some time last night reading through the archived theology/theosophy posts and happened upon this thread started by Illuminated. Seems like relevant subject matter given the tenor of discussion around here lately. Was Jesus Christ a myth? "Yeah, hes like an STD." - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 03-08-200105:29 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Hey Grump and Prarie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Grump...I'm doing well. It's good to see you. Believe it or not, I am not personally offended when people deface the bible. I am much more offended when Christians who claim to believe in the bible deface it with their lifestyles (this is a general statement and not directed at anyone here but directed mainly at a lot of people in the Christian church today). God is not really discredited by evil acts by people who don't believe. In fact I think it points people to their need for a God. Guys like Hitler only point out how messed up the world is and how much it desperately needs God. DC Talk in one of their songs have a quote that says, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world is Christians...who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." The sacredness of the Bible is in its ability to transform lives. I think many people on this bbs have talked about how messed up so many Christians are and the hypocricy in the church. My hope however is to change that. DL Moody once said, "The world has yet to see what God can do through with and for a man who is wholly consecrated unto Him." Prarie...We have continued to discuss this issue at length and I referred to the Myth thread several times myself and even put a link to it. The general consensus here is that few people debate whether Jesus existed or not. I have even been criticized on some posts for arguing that there are people on this thread who do. Nevertheless, I had quite a bit to say about the assertions on that thread there as well as on this one. Incidentally, that is the thread that started this whole discussion. Rosa, Rictus and I started a thread that was separate from that one so we could discuss theology in more detail without diminishing the purpose of the other thread. God Bless...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 03-08-200110:04 AM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @freegrace: I have just re-read my own posts again, and I feel you may still be misunderstanding me. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do believe that if only 18% of the people in Africa are Catholic, it is inaccurate to say that the Pope's banning of contraceptives are a major cause for the exacerbation of the AIDS virus...a minor one maybe but not major. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I need to address this. Firstly, I was not claiming it to be a major factor, mearly a factor, part of the problem. From this quote, it would seem you agree with me. I think to say 'only 18%' is a little fascetious though. That's almost one in five of the population, a staggering amount considering Catholosicm is not 'indiginous' to the African nations in the same way as it is in western societies. If one in five people you met in the street were muslin, I'm sure you would consider them to be a major group, and it would certainly be noticable. I think 123 million people who will not use contraception in a continent that has HIV as an endemic problem is a considerable risk, and in light of the 'pyramid selling' way the virus can work, a truely alarming statistic. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On the other hand, I think that it is very unfortunate to make the argument that the only sources of recreation are sex and church. It makes them sound like they are savages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's unfortunate you read my words in that way, as I think you know that is not my opinion. The point I was trying to convey is that they are people living in savage circumstances, a fact none of us can deny. How hope can exist in any form in such an environment says something extraordinary about man's ability to be positive and hopeful. And for many (just as with your inner city kids freegrace) the hope will fail. These people are not to blame when that happens, it's an effect of environment. To re-iterate then: I consider the Catholic church to be a factor in the continuing spread of the HIV virus in Africa, and the pope's millitant stance on contraception to have lethal consiquences for some catholic families in Africa. It is my opinion that this is a moraly reprehensable state of affairs. As an endnote, the example I gave of blood transfusion leading to a family being whiped out was not hypothetical. My mother was a AIDS counciller for 4 years, and one of her clients was an african woman who had a 5 year old child. They were both HIV positive, caught from the father, a man who had remained faithful throughout the marrage (because he was a devout catholic) but caught HIV during a blood transfusion. They are both dead now. @Lord of the Nazgul: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People who know nothing of the social intricacies in southern African society could make the assumption that the Catholic Church is responsible for the AIDS epidemic. Of course, they'd be completely wrong... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Who said southern Africa? Who said wholey responsible? And could you tell me how my research is incomplete or incorrect, instead of just rubbishing it in this high handed arrogent way? Read my whole argument thoroughlly, then demonstrate how I am incorrect. Gross generalisations like this do nothing for either of us. Me. Please take a moment to post your Manson story on this thread . Thank you. Random Quote club 2001 - member No. 1 "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." *^*Co-founder and proud member of the blackjack appreciation society. She's tiny but she rules.*^* "Kill The Cheese!!!" posted 03-08-200110:32 AM Grump Member 1967 Posts Member since: 01-11-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ freegrace: i think we agree about the major causes of the problems, and i like that line about christians being responsible for atheism. not sure it's entirely true, but probably enough so to be said. i personally don't feel like i need "God" but i understand that others feel they do.. It is also very interesting to me to see how staunchly atheistic official cultures (I'm thinking of Leninist and Stalinist Russia, for example) always found ways to deify humans and get people to worship them instead of a divine figure. I'm studying Russian and Soviet film now and have just been looking at the ways that 1940s Russia lightened up on the anti-Christian/ anti-Church stance that had been held so dearly since the Revolution of 1917; you see a bunch of films that meld Christian martyrdom imagery with Communist hero martyrdom imagery, and the Soviet government officially ok'd these films: not just Lenin but common people, anti-fascist martyrs were made into martyrs with very clear Christ/ Christian symbolism (e.g. movies like _Zoya_, made after the war, in which a young girl who resisted the Nazis was tortured but refused to be an informant, even to tell her torturers her own name, and then was publicly hanged, naked, and she was only identified when her own mother recognized the picture of her naked corpse on the cover of _Pravda_). THere are lots of films like this from 1940s Russia and other ex-Soviet republics. It's unclear to me, though, whether people necessarily NEED these structures/ figures to worship or whether cynical power structures (including various Christian institutions) convince people that they do, and then exploit the believers. whaddya all think?? ##I'm not afraid to admit that I masturbate club: member no. 648,294,024.## ## officially sick of sig files of all kinds##1 posted 03-08-200110:33 AM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |