| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ that's a question I'm facing now: "how do i decide between right and wrong?" Honestly, i'm having trouble. I don't have a good grounded sense of right and wrong when it comes to details because in my upbringing i was taught that what my parents said went, no quesitons asked. So i never had an explanation to why things were the way they were. Thus, i never learned how to judge for myself. Right now i slide by on doing what my gut tells me to do. I realize the obvious: don't hurt others because that is wrong. But then there are the more detailed instances, like, how does killing yourself affect others, and why is it wrong (don't tell me it's in the bible..it's not. St. AUgustine invented it and put that nice rule into effect). ALso, as to why self-mutiliation is right/wrong or selfish. I've had all this thrown at me over the past few years as well as what respect is due to parental units that are mentally abusive. How can you do right by that? And we all know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but might they in some cases if it makes you feel better. On this alley of the thread (and by the way, i am hoping we finish the evolution part soon; i wasn't replying simply because i'd presented my info and it became a trite and tedious question/debate) i have more questions than i can provide answers for. i think freegrace will have a great hold on this though. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-20-200105:58 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Rosa: Again, you put things much more coherently than I do... thankyou once more for your insight... @Mike: Burn out!!! LOL! *joke* It does get to you after a while. We all had to take a break on the last thread and slow things right down. I'm glad you'll still look in from time to time. @catholic girl: Welcome. What made you join this BBS, if you don't mind answering? And what about this thread stood out for you? Just curious. Enjoy your time here. @freegrace: I'm going to give you a break to get to the others. I'm still here buddy, and I'm still learning. Hope all is well with you, and don't get to burned out, it's OK to take a break, the thread isn't gonig anywere. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-20-200106:00 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Devilminchkin: I bowed out of the evoloution debate too, due to my own ignorence, but I think it's knid of wrapped up now anyway (Mike seems to have had enough, so does freegrace). I think listening to your gut is an excellent start. It's were a lot of my day to day moral decitions get made, and it's ALWAYS right. The times I don't obey my gut, things go wrong every single time! Suicide... I don't think it's morally wrong, but you are depriving yourself of the world if you do it, and I love this planet. OK, the people aren't always up to much, but the view, man... *smiles* You would also be depriving the world of you, and I for one would find the world a less interesting place with you removed. You have the power to change your life and your circumstance. Your rejections of your parents hypocracy had shown you that you posess that strength. My advice would be to use it to give yourself what you want. As a closing thought, I believe that you deserve happyness and love. You need to believe that too. It's the truth. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-20-200106:07 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 So great to see you all ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wow...what an exciting thread. But I must admit I am pretty wiped out. Mike Sorrow...First let me commend you on an exceptional argument about evolution. It opened my mind in many ways and gave me a lot to think about. I am thankful that we can wrap up this conversation. As I have said to everyone in the past, I am always willing to agree to disagree. Believe me, I have been burnt out time and time again on these threads and it has taken a great deal of my time. Like you, I have spent several hours responding to posts and I am relieved that we can simply say enough is enough. On the point of the circular reasoning, I use the Bible to prove Jesus not the Bible. So as your illustration points out, my topic sentence is Jesus, my proof is the Bible. I'm still not so sure the conclusions reached from the fossil record are factual, but that is a point that has been discussed enough. Some day, I do want to hear more about what, if any, social implications there are for evolutionary theory. Like Rosa, I believe that evolutionary theory and survival of the fittest should not be applied in social contexts. Rosa, I am not sure what the climate is in Germany, but in the US I believe that the notion of survival of the fittest is applied outside of the realm of science. In fact, there is a best selling book about how it relates to business. The name escapes me. Shokan...Thanks again for your post. As I have mentioned to you before, I have read all of your arguments and believe there is a plausible explanation for each one. However, I will not expend the time and energy to do it all though it does not persuade me on the basic inerrancy of the Bible. Catholicgirl, good luck in taking the time to answer all those. Catholicgirl, welcome to the thread. Incidentally I was raised in a Catholic home. My mother is a devout Catholic but my father is an agnostic. However, like many people on this bbs, my family mainly attends church out of tradition and they do not believe the tenents of the faith (mainly many things in the Nicene creed. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your answering these questions: 1. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for certain that if you were to die today you would go to heaven or is that something you are still working on? 2. Suppose you were to die today, and God were to ask you why should I let you into my heaven, what would you say (I realize this is a hypothetical question and God might not ask you this question but I'd be curious of your response nevertheless)? 3. How do you reconcile God's love and mercy (1 John 4:8) and his justice (Nahum 1:3, Mat 25:46))? Rosa, very interesting points. I appreciate your post. Incidentally, yes theologians often have very interesting arguments. Rictus, you credit your beliefs to the way you were raised yet say they were somehow instinctive. Can you clarify? I think Devilmunchkin's points are interesting. She was raised differently than you and is in a different place in her life. Thank you for the much appreciated respite. To all, I appreciate the interaction. Hopefully I will see you all again soon. God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200106:43 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rictus, I'm not checking in time to time. I'm checking in every time this gets a reply. It's just that my last post took two hours to formulate. I think I've stated my position and stated it intelligently. If there is something that is in dire need of a reply, I'll reply. Just no more two hour replies. I've been keeping up with everything you, Freegrace, Rosa, Devilmunchkin, and catholic girl have been saying. I did burn out, though. If I have two hours to spend on the internet and I spend it all on this thread, I have no other time for other things on the BBS or other websites. It's very time consuming. I will be talking to you later. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200106:46 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Freegrace, sorry I missed you. I posted a reply within minutes of yours. I commend you on excellent points. This has been the most in-depth theological debate I have ever had. You are certainly a testiment to how people of any religion can learn their religion and not just believe in it because of mommy and daddy or because it's just tradition. Your points only made me research more and further affirmed my own beliefs, as I'm sure my arguments did the same for you. It's been enjoyable, and I will talk to you elsewhere, and, perhaps, you will return to this thread, as well. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200106:59 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Plastic Jesus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well finally to your questions, on the issue of Judges 1:19. I have looked at several English translations of the Bible and all state that it was the people and not God who were unable to drive them out. I would attribute this statement to a mistranslation on the part of your website. Here are the translations I am citing: NIV Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. NAS Judges 1:19 Now the LORD was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. KJV Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. NKJ Judges 1:19 So the LORD was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron. My assumption would be that they were looking at the King James Version in which the antecedent wasn't clear and made an inaccurate assumption. Take note that the New King James Version, which is based on the most recent scholarship, has it in the plural third person. In looking at the Greek Septuagint, which is the translation many of the Hebrew Scholars would have used during Christ's time, it is in the third person plural. Interestingly enough, I think this is a sign of a God who loves us and stands by us during our failures as much as our successes. On the issue of King Solomon, one of the main reasons I dislike these types of questions is the verses are often taken out of their context ***MIKE SORROW, HOW'S THAT FOR IMPARTIALITY?***. The specific verse you are alluding to is as follows: 1 Kings 8:61-63, "Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day. 62 And the king, and all Israel with him, offered sacrifice before the LORD. 63 And Solomon offered a sacrifice of peace offerings, which he offered unto the LORD, two and twenty thousand oxen, and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the children of Israel dedicated the house of the LORD." If the person who wrote this had taken the time to read the verse directly above it, they would have noticed in plain English that entire nation of Israel offerred the sacrifice. While King Solomon provided all of the oxen and sheep (no mention of bulls another misquote) out of his great wealth, it is not accurate to the text to assume that he was personally responsible for sacrificing all of them. You will note that the King and all of Israel performed the dedicatory sacrifice. On the issue of an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. The difference is primarily between what one personally does as an act of retribution and the standard the law set up for the governing of the nation of Israel. When Jesus spoke about this issue, he was pointing out that if someone strikes an individual, that person should not respond by striking him. However, the ruling in the Old Testament was not for the individual but it was the standard of punishment that the law would allow for the legal authorities to enforce. It is kind of like Doug Lewellen says on the People's Court that if someone hurts you, don't take matters into your own hands, you take them to court. Incidentally, the Mosaic Law was actually one of the more generous laws of its time as often the retribution and chaos that occured when one person hurt another was outrageous. In Jesus' case, because He was concerned with personal matters and not laws that govern society, He was merely saying to put the issue of being stricken into God's hands because he will be the final arbiter of all punishment. Plastic Jesus, if you do take the time to read this discussion I was blasted for referring to a Christian website to criticize evolutionary theory and state what I believe ***MIKE SORROW, incidentally, the issue of evolution was not being fought ardently because I feel like faith in God depends on it, but because everyone continuously asked me to defend my view. Also the websites made many valid points from my perspective*** In the same regard, I would highly recommend your identifying whatever contradictions in the Bible from your own personal reading because as you can see the alleged contradictions are taken out of context. Incidentally, many of the ones Shokan brought up were also taken out of context but I have neither the time nor the energy to answer them all. The issue of the Bible is an issue of faith. Unfortunately, I do not have time to demonstrate why I believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God. I am too wiped out to do it (I haven't seen Prarie either). I will check in and out on this thread but cannot devote the time I have in the past week. Like Mike Sorrow, I am wiped out. I hope you all understand. God Bless you and know that God loves you...freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:15 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Mike Sorrow that is tremendous ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I agree with you. Although we view things differently, I am thankful that we can discuss it intelligently. That is the problem with much of the world today...people are so emotionally attached to their ideas that they are unable to formulate opinions of their own and discuss them. Like you, your points have encouraged me to take a deeper look at some of my inaccurate assumptions about people who espouse evolutionary theory...the biggest one being the fossil record. For that I thank you. I also agree that two to three hour posts are excessive and I'm thankful that we were both able to bow out of it with grace rather than beating the issue to a pulp. Please note that in my last post to Plastic Jesus, I was not trying to be sarcastic in my statements about the internet post he went to, but it does frustrate me when people misquote the Bible (Rosa...I know how you feel now ). Thanks and God Bless...freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:21 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I didn't deny that Plastic Jesus's websites were of a religious nature. I just assumed that the quotes it pointed out were direct quotes from the Bible. It was my fault that I had assumed that because they were misquoted. In the same stride, I still defend my remarks that the website you offered had the subjective goal of returning to "Christian primacy of thought". I briefly reiterate the point that scientists are objective because it is not there job to regard religion (belief or disbelief) as a factor. They merely run experiments and formulate theories based on their calculations and observations. The best I can do is compare a scientist to a calculator. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200107:24 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok, I agree and respectively say... TO EACH THEIR OWN! - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200107:26 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Subjective reasons for believing what you do ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well folks, we have had some great discussions. Many of you are by far the most intelligent people I've ever met. I believe that all truth is both objective and subjective. We experience different things in our lives that lead us to different conclusions. At some point, I'd be curious to know how your view has made your life better. I have heard from many that they can't believe in Christianity because they believe it is intolerant, or that a God who would send people to hell is less humane than most humans. I guess what I want to know is, what does your belief system bring you that others cannot? Please note, I have said over and over again that one should not come to their theology simply because it brings hope or explanations to unanswered questions. I have tried to demonstrate that Christianity is logical, although disagreeable to some. What strikes me about this bbs is that for all the proclamations about how Christianity inhibits moral freedom and makes life so miserable, there are so many people who are suicidal and can't find hope in life. Why do you all think that is? How does your view (albeit atheism, science or in Rictus' case everything=God, or catholocism) help you through your daily life? I agree that science was not intended to answer this question so I'd like to know from you all. I am not asking this to argue with you but I would learn a great deal from your responses, especially as I attempt to bring hope to this generation. It would mean a great deal to me if some of you would take the time to answer this question. Love, freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:31 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How does my belief help me in my life? Good question. It doesn't. Actually, it makes me depressed. I should've taken the blue pill. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200107:38 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 You crack me up ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is a good one. It seems like many people are atheists are depressed. Order said the only good thing is that he is enlightened. Like I said, I admire people for pursuing what they believe is true. Incidentally, there are days I wish I would have taken the blue pill (not your blue pill but mine...meaning not believing in Christianity) as well. God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:44 PM Buthane Member 377 Posts Member since: 01-06-2001 To all in this thread ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi I have read most of your thread, and just thought I'd bounce this thing I heard at university in a class I took in molecular biology. Molecular biology is not my major so please forgive me for leaving out details...I'm a medical student.... It's an experiment someone made some years ago. And I think it's very important to the discussion that you are having on the origin of life. I don't know if you've heard of it. You probably have. You are so well-informed and I respect you very much for your incredibly civilized discussion, that you are running. Anyway here goes. Someone was intersted in the origin of life, so what they did was that they tried to copy the conditions of which theearly "lifeforms" would have been subjected to. That means the same temperature, acidity in the water, what elements were present and in what quantities. So what they did was that they made a model of the ocean at that time. And then they used "lightning" as a catalyst to see what would happen. They sent ellectric shocks into the "ocean" They had an idea that if you pass electric current through this "soup" of elements you might get lucky and form some of the ingredients of carbonbased life. And lo and behold, after doing that for some time they analyzed the contents of the model ocean there was evidence of VERY primitive forms of amino acids. Then what one must keep in mind is that this would have gone on for millions of years, so in the end you get a very high probability on something resembling a DNA chain ,might occur. I know this isn't as profoundly written or backed up by qoutes like the rest of the stuff here, but I just thought you might be interested in this. I look forward to reading your debate as it is very informative and interresting posted 01-20-200107:47 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200107:52 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 Buthane ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I have heard of that experiment before, but am not completely familiar with it, so there is no reason to flaw my arguments with my own ignorance. I wouldn't look forward to too much debate because we're all on a cooling off period right now. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200107:57 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Buthane ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks...Mike Sorrow is the scientist here. I'm not even a medical student. My last biology class was in the 10th grade. Mike, you could probably help me with the name of the study but I did read something about it. I remember that it was largely discredited and I don't remember why. There was a presupposition made about the environment that would not have been true of the real world. Mike wasn't there something about the lack of oxygen from the absence of plant life or something of that nature? I'd have to look at it but I'm not sure. Buthane, thanks for following the debate. Mike and I have formed a truce to agree to disagree. We both feel passionate about our views but are lacking in time. Mike or Buthane, why do you think so many people on the bbs are so suicidal and depressed? Maybe I'll post this as a separate topic some day. freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:57 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I didn't see your post before I wrote mine. That is a deep statement about atheism...freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200107:59 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Freegrace, I cannot speak for others on the BBS, but I discussed why atheists are depressed and my own ignorance on that study in my last two posts. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200108:02 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Sorry...Mike Sorrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For some reason I misread that part when I first read it. My bad. That is one of the deepest statements I've ever heard about atheism. I'd like to attach it to my sig (like Rictus did with Order's quote), not to mock you but because I think it says something very powerful that people on the bbs can relate to. Feel free to say no...freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200108:05 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
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