| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message Buthane Member 377 Posts Member since: 01-06-2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's a shame that you don't have the time for debating on this thread cos it's one of the most exciting things i've ever read. I respect you all very much. I think this is so far the cornerstone in my "christian" education. See I live in Denmark and here Christianity or any kind of religion is not taught in school, so I don't know anything about any religions whatsoever. Denamrk takes secularity very serious so religion is something that one must seek out for yourself. I think that's a good thing, since religion is a very personal thing. posted 01-20-200108:06 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Freegrace, if you would like to use the quote, I would be honored. It was from the heart. Buthane, I'm sorry, but both Freegrace and myself are extremely wiped out from this whole thing. I also hope you appreciate how important discovering religion on your own is. Many people who are brought up into it grow to resent it. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200108:11 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It was nice talking again, this time in shorter responses. Goodnight, all. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200108:13 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Buthane ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't think we've necessarily stopped discussing it, we're just cooling off. Both Mike Sorrow and I have discussed evolution at length and as intelligently as we possibly could. We just reached the point to where our time commitment to talk about each point is very demanding and we would like to agree to disagree about this point. However, we will continue to talk about religion at length (by religion I am including atheism as well even though it normally is not considered part of that category). If you liked this, you might also like to look at the thread Rictus and I started with if you'd like to read more: http://marilynmansonbbs.artistdirect.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=10019&f=102194673&m=839191773 Also, feel free to ask any questions and at my earliest opportunity I will attempt to answer them. May God richly bless you and may you find fruit in your search for truth...freegrace God is crazy about you. If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it. If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it. He sends you flowers every spring. He sends you a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He listens. He can live anywhere in the universe, yet He chooses your heart. Face it, friend-He is crazy about you! posted 01-20-200108:15 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Good Night All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Sorrow...Here is my new sig. I copied the quote of yours directly and put it with scripture. I thought it was kind of symbolic of this thread and where we both put our faith (although to what degree is different). Your faith is in science because it offers more proof, mine is in God because He offers me more hope (although I believe that he offers proof as well). If for any reason, you would like for me to change it, please let me know. By the way, the reason I made the "funny math" statement earlier was because of your sig. I know how much you love George W (LOL ) God Bless and Good night. You all are loved...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-20-200108:36 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Freegrace, it's fine the way it is, but if you want to cut out the part in parenthesis to make it shorter, feel free. It's up to you. As for G. W., it's not even that I'm a democrat. I don't really align myself with any party. I just really disagree with Dubya and feel we're in for a ride. Buthane, keep reading. This thread isn't done, yet. Also, please reply to anything you feel fit. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200109:14 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ok..lol..NOW i can put in my two cents...for all it's worth. I'll start with freegrace's questions, even tho they are for catholic girl: If i were to die today, this minute.....and we all know this is a common thought with me throughout my life (me and death go way back)....and there indeed were a god..i would go to hell. plain and simple. If he/she/it (should we dare even go into what genetalia god might have....or just leave that alone?)asked me why he should let me into heaven...i'd tell it not to. Why should it? i never truly worshipped him because i never saw his works. I never felt like he took an active part in my life. In fact, if he does exist, the active part he took was taking all that i loved away from me...or just merely ignoring me. take your pick. I'd probably attempt to keep him in debate for awhile before i decended to my infernal punishment below (kinda like a child stalling for bed..lol). well..i can't answer the third question..so i'll leave it at that. i think freegrace should clarify his statement contrasting my upbringing to Rictus...tho i have this odd feeling that Rictus is nearing 30. don't ask why..i used to think freegrace was a woman..lol. now..freegrace. do we really need to debate Judges again. ack!!!! I think it should more bluntly read "God wanted to commit genocide on the Canaanites to help his ego" or "The Hebrews used the belief of their god as an excuse to attack and try to purge the land of it's inhabitants". just my thinking. either way, a genreal belief of the time was that it wasn't THESE people actually fighting each other...it was their gods fighting each other. This is odd because it suggests polytheism. In no way were the hebrews denying that the Canaanite gods existed....it was more about a battle to see which set of gods were stronger. Using either King james version tho, freegrace, is very unwise. It was composed of all fairly new scrolls rather than the oldest ones found (dead sea scrolls). Not only that, the author(s) (rumored to be Shakespeare..tho doubtful since he hated King James)embelished and made errors in their translations to make the wording sound pretty. And pretty it is..but not an accuration translation of the bible at all. sorry to burst your bible..i mean bubble. moving on: freegrace, your posts seem to imply that depression is caused by atheism. Not true...my trouble and depression began when i thought i was at my most religious. thinkgs in my life have actually gotten better since i decided that no god could exist. I've shed alot of my negativity. I can view this Earth for it's natural beauty...instead of seeing it as something that an entity created and that i HAVE to give thanks for. I can more thouroughly enjoy it and it's unpredictability. Nature's chaos (although, some biologist believe in a Chaoss THeory which suggest that although many things seem chaotic, if you look at them on a large existance they are not so at all), to me, is more beautiful than a creation that is presented by god. ACtually yes..for a long time there was a lack of oxygen..that is why all life forms are carbon based (organic). When vegetation surfaced, or rather, autotropic organisms, their by product was oxygen as the used the abundance of CO2 in the atmosphere as their fuel. *sigh* ok..that took awhile. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-20-200110:50 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *sigh* ok..that took awhile. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You said it. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-20-200110:57 PM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ @Buthane: As far as theology/religion goes, don't fret, it will continue to be widely discussed here, and I welcome you to join in, question comment etc. Welcome aboard, your presence is appreciated. @Devilmunchkin: What you had to say about the beauty of nature rings very true to me. I often feel thankful for the wonder of this world, and all the more grateful because I view it's wild freedom, and in doing so celibrate my own. Oh, and I'm 22. @Freegrace: LOL! Glad everyone is still friends! Don't work too hard. @Mike Sorrow: Sorry, I misunderstood. I'm very glad I was wrong!!! @Catholic Girl:I look forward to your comments. I'm proud of you all. Be well. Rictus. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-20-200111:32 PM Plastic Jesus Member 2733 Posts Member since: 06-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sweet Jesus...I really shouldn't be away from here so long. Three pages of ALOT of text is too much for me to read, at least for now. I did, however manage to find freegrace's reply to me and I have to admit that those things seemed to be taken a bit out of context and weren't really valuable. But even if those particuar examples weren't exactly that good I still can't believe that what the Bible tells us is God's word or even true at all. And I'm not just trying to convince myself without any evidence, though I now know I should research those things better myself. Though, because I'm from Finland and I took some of those things from a Finnish site, some of the mistakes there migh've been because of me. I'm really tired now so that's all I'll say now. I'll be coming back with more questions and comments. One thing, though. Freegrace, did you check out that link I posted in my other post? If you don't know what I mean, here it is: http://elroy.com/ehr/ Here's one thing I'd like you to try to explain. If God is allmighty he/she/it must also be above time, right? Time can't control an allmighty, divine creature. So if that's so then God must know the future, right? Well if God knows what's going to happen in the future he/she/it also knows what he/she/it is going to "do" in the future. That means God's actions are predestined. So the question is, how can something's that's omnipotent have a "destiny"? ---------------------- "Don't make your kids stupid!" -Jello Biafra The Plastic Jesus Cult plastic.jesus@antisocial.com Official Naked Runners Club: no.6 posted 01-21-200107:21 AM Rictus Member 3203 Posts Member since: 06-05-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PJ: Welcome back. yup, I left for 48hours, and spent 3/4 of an hour catching up!!! The question you raise is one I've already discussed with freegrace, either here or on our previous thred. The answer he gave is there somewere. "All the drugs in this world Won't save her from herself..." "Kill The Cheese!!!" - Eliza (who I love) "No one is a nigger" - Order in an Artificial Chaos posted 01-21-200107:26 AM Morbideus Junior Member 35 Posts Member since: 01-19-2001 The Big Questions ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It may sound like ai'm just trying to be a pain in the ass, but I really mean this: There is no universal truth, just the illusion of one. Anyone who claims to "know" the truth is lying to you or themselves. posted 01-21-200107:39 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin the trouble maker ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks so much for your thoughtful points: First to my beloved buddy devilmunchkin, you just love to poke your head in and give me a hard time don't you? On the issue of Carbon Dioxide, I was speaking off of the top of my head. In response to your question, I looked through my notes today to try to find out where I had read about the experiment that was brought up by Buthane that was conducted by Stanley Miller. I now remember. I think the issue was that in order to work the experiment by Miller had to assume an environment without oxygen, yet we know that the oceans today are similar chemically to how they were when Miller argues that the idea or primordial soup took place. Interestingly enough, some herald it as an alternate explanation to Panspermia (the theory that some scientists propose that life came by transport from aliens to another planet). In order to not get blasted this time, I am offering three different websites (one Christian, one that I don't think is Christian but not sure, and one that is an interview with Miller himself). From what I gather, the experiment could go either way but it is not definitively conclusive. http://www.yfiles.com/origin.html http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/origlife.htm http://www.accessexcellence.com/WN/NM/miller.html Also, I think that you, Atossa and Mike had asked me about where I got my information on the fossil record. I now remember. I literally bumped into it while going through some notes today. (I'm not trying to resurrect the argument but I knew I had read it somewhere and I didn't know where but now I know). The person I was quoting was Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University. From what I understand he is one of the leading evolutionists in America and to my knowledge not a Christian. Here is what he said, "Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution directly. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I wish only to point out that it was never `seen' in the rocks." (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, Vol. 86, No. 5, May 1977, p.14). I also found some other quotes that I had forgotten about: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and `fully formed.'" (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, Vol. 86, No. 5, May 1977, p.14). "...we have proffered a collective tacit acceptance of the story of gradual adaptive change, a story that strengthened and became even more entrenched as the synthesis took hold. We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports that interpretation, all the while really knowing that it does not." (Eldredge, Niles [Chairman and Curator of Invertebrates, American Museum of Natural History], "Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria," Simon & Schuster: New York NY, 1985, p44) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "A large number of well-trained scientists outside of evolutionary biology and paleontology have unfortunately gotten the idea that the fossil record is far more Darwinian than it is. This probably comes from the oversimplification inevitable in secondary sources: low-level textbooks semipopular articles, and so on. Also, there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general. these have not been found-yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks." (Raup, David M. [Professor of Geology, University of Chicago], "Evolution and the Fossil Record," Science, Vol. 213, No. 4505, 17 July 1981, p.289) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ **MIKE SORROW, FEEL FREE TO BEAT ME OVER THE HEAD FOR THIS. I AM NOT TRYING TO REOPEN THE DEBATE, BUT I WAS POINTING OUT WHERE MY EARLIER STATEMENTS CAME FROM SO YOU DON'T THINK I WAS MAKING THEM UP** All I was saying to Rictus was that his upbringing allowed him to come to the position that he can trust his instincts for knowing what is right and wrong. Yours has inhibited you from doing so. I wasn't using you as a case in point. By the way, I think you should be banned from guessing anything more about people on the bbs. First you thought I was a woman and now you thought Rictus was 30. Could you be any more insulting to two young guys? LOL. Just for that, I have a feeling you are a conservative, Southern Baptist, African American male who voted for George Bush who loves Creed. Did I get it right ? On the issue of the KJV, your professor was giving you a one sided opinion of a raging debate among textual Scholars that has gone on for many years. In short it is a debate between is older better or is more consistency a sign of a more accurate translation. The older texts, tend to have a great deal of variation between copies. Since they were all copied by hand, there is a great possibility for scribal error and once duplicated can appear in todays texts. For instance, lets say you were a scribe and you were copying the bible word for word (a tedious task for someone like you I'm sure ). While copying you look over to see this cute guy and you accidentally copy a 50 instead of a 5. Well, all scribes that copy from your copy will make the same error until it becomes so widespread that most versions have it (that, is why I think that there is a possibility for so many numerical issues that some consider errors but are likely scribal errors and not errors in the original writing of the OT). Well, among the older manuscripts, some may have as many as 10-15 word variations per page. In the textus receptus, the basis for the text that created the KJV and NKJV, there is a variation of about 1 per page. So the text decision is not necessarily as easy as you make it out to be. Some say the older a text is, the more likely it was to represent the original while others say the more consistent a text is, the more likely it is to represent the original. Bubble not bursted. Frankly, I don't really care. I'm having a hard enough time living what the word of God says rather than involving myself in these debates. Do we really have to go through Judges again? Here's what I said earlier: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ God's killing is significantly different from the prohibition of murder in the 10 Commandments. Easton's Bible Dictionary says, "Murder Wilful murder was distinguished from accidental homicide, and was invariably visited with capital punishment (Nu 35:16,18,21,31 Le 24:17) This law in its principle is founded on the fact of man's having been made in the likeness of God (Ge 9:5,6 Joh 8:44 1Jo 3:12,15)." If I accidentally crash into another car and the person dies, I killed him but I did not murder him. Murder is willful intent to kill an innocent life. The reason is that God has made man in His image and we shouldn't deface that image. When we kill, we take the life of something we didn't create (although parents have children they did not create them in my opinion; childberth is a miracle in and of itself). Furthermore, it is wrong for a child to spank a parent because he/she doesn't have the authority to do so because the parents created them. The issue of killing is the same. God has the authority to do so because He created them. Additionally, in America it is illegal for a 10 year old to drive because he/she is not responsible enough with a car. In the same vein, men show their irresponsibility when they take life. The mistake we make is that life is a gift from God. God, because He gave us that gift, has the right to take that gift away as He sees fit. Our lives are on loan from God. We have no right to life, God gives us something we didn't earn or deserve. Whether he takes that life in the form of judgment (the people killed in Sodom and Gomorrah were by no means innocent and God had every right to judge them). God not only takes life in that way, but if a man dies in his sleep at 100 years old has the life taken from him. Did man invent God to justify genocide? When the Allied forces fought against Hitler to overthrow unrighteous government women and children were killed. When America attacked Saddam Hussein to challenge what he did to other lands, women and children were killed. Killing is a just act when it is to overthrow unjust people. The people in Judges were both. Like Hitler, they worshipped the God Moloch, who required child sacrifice in exchange for service. They also were very barbarous in their treatment of other nations. They were by no means innocent. They were worse than we could imagine. It was poetic justice. They got what they deserved. Furthermore, Israel's location put them under constant threat from these enemies. It was important to conquer them for their own protection. You may not like this answer but it is the truth. Once again, God can choose to give life or take it away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What more do you want from me? I think you were just bringing this issue up so I'd repost my opinions and get blasted for them again. Thanks a lot FRIEND. I'll remember that. I hope this helps. After swearing off these hour long posts, I just wrote one. I think I have a problem. Good night. Put the ammo down! Your trying to get me lynched out here! Your friend, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 01-21-2001 at 09:17 PM.] posted 01-21-200109:11 PM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I still think its funny that ive presented those questions to countless christians, and none want to answer them. I try too hard. posted 01-21-200109:15 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *beats Freegrace over the head for even mentioning evolution* just kidding... sorta... - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-21-200109:17 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Plastic Jesus ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here's what I said before to Rictus about time vs. omnipotence. Let me know if you need further clarification: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ First of all, in my opinion the most critical error of this philosophy is its violation of the law of non-contradiction. It is the biggest hurdle that proponents of the God=everything would have to overcome. As you have pointed out, the most challenging aspect of Christianity in my opinion is the doctrine of hell. However, of the two, I would rather ascribe to the doctrine of hell as opposed to a view that is less likely to be correspondent to reality. As I mentioned, the law of non-contradiction simply states that a statement and it's opposite negating equivalent cannot both be true. For example, I cannot say: Jesus rose from the dead and Jesus did not rise from the dead and have both statements be true. Inherent in your point regarding the lack of validity of the law of non-contradiction with respect to spiritual matters is a use of the logic of the law of non-contradiction. You are saying that either spiritual matters should not be judged with the law of non-contradiction or not at all. However, in order to sustain your point, you would have to prove that this philosophy is supported by the law of non-contradiction because you said that your truth is inclusive. Consequently, you would have to apply the law of non-contradiction to your truth to point out that all truth is inclusive. Otherwise the point fails. Secondly I would like to address your point regarding God's omnipotence and his omniscience. As I mentioned, there is no inherent contradiction in God's sovereignty and omniscience. These are complimentary statements and not contradictory ones. The opposite of God being omnipotent is that he isn't omnipotent. The opposite of God being omniscient is that he isn't omniscient. Incidentally, in order to support your claim of an inclusive truth you will have to say that he is omnipotent and he isn't. Incidentally, in order to embrace aetheists, you will also have to say he exists and he doesn't. In order to embrace some extreme rationalists, you will have to say you exist and you don't. Even worse I'm sure in your book, in order to have an inclusive truth you must embrace the doctrine of hell. If you're going to go that far, you might as well be a Christian because the view is more correspondent to reality. Worst of all, you would probably have to accept the prejudiced views expressed on the Tupac thread as being true as well. I am not trying to be mean, I hope you understand that. I am simply trying to point out that the notion of an inclusive truth is very difficult to support. Let's go back to omnipotence and omniscience. First of all, inherent in your assumption is that God views time in the same way we do. I do not think that is the case. In my opinion, God is able to view time not as it occurs but he is free from any restraints on past, present and future. In fact, God's omniscience makes him more powerful and his omnipotence makes him more omniscient. That is why I think that the two views are complimentary. Now, my way of arguing this is different than yours but I think that the point can even be made within your paradigm. If God is everything, than he is all knowledge combined into one and he is all power combined into one. That is omniscience and omnipotence without a violation of the law of non-contradiction! Now, this is how I look at it. First of all, there is a great deal of mystery with regard to how and why God does all He does for sure. Much of it is incomprehensible. Isaiah 55:8-9 says "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts." Thus, I am not pretending to completely understand how God is both omniscient and omnipotent. My point is to show how they are not inherently contradictory statements but complimentary. I will illustrate this fact by referring to two movies. The first is the new Mel Gibson movie What Women Want. In this movie, Mel Gibson supposedly receives the power to read women's minds. Consequently, by having this ability to know what they are thinking, he is more powerful in persuading them of what to do. Consequently, his knowledge makes him more powerful. We have a trite saying in America that says, "Knowledge is power." Well, the logical conclusion of that is Ultimate Knowledge is Ultimate Power. Consequently, since God created us, he knows exactly what we think, what makes us tick, what we like, don't like. He knows what we'll do before we even think to do it! When he desires for us to do something, he presses the right button in our make up and we do it. From our perspective it is free will, while from His, he exerted His power to cause us to do something under our own free compulsion. Now, Mel Gibson is a man with limits. However, God is all powerful and without them with far more knowledge than reading minds, but understanding how every human throughout time worked and having had the benefit of designing us exactly as we are. This is not a complete illustration and it has its flaws, as I said, God's ways are incomprehensible. However, I think it illustrates how God's omniscience leads to his omnipotence. On the other side, let's look at another movie, Back to the Future II. In this movie, Marty has a time machine that allows him to go forward in time to the future. Based on this ability, he is able to know the Stock Market and etc. Now as the movie portrays it, Marty uses this information to make some investments in the past but is thwarted by his arch enemy. Unfortunately, for Marty by making these mistakes he ruins the future and spends the rest of the movie trying to fix it up. Actually, as a side note, if you think that man has the only power to determine his outcome and God is not allowed to participate, are you not saying that Man is actually more powerful than God? Food for thought. Not so for God. God, because of his omniscience, knows all things real and possible. He can determine what effect decision he makes has on the past present and future events. Because He is not bound by time, His omnipotence supports his omniscience. However, since our view of time is one dimensional, we do not have the priviledge of understanding what this is like. Thus, God's omnipotence over time supports his omniscience. Therefore Rictus, what I am trying to say is that I do not believe that these two sides of the coin are inherently contradictory. As I mentioned, it is the simplest way for me to put it. Keep in mind, I have only focused on two small points of God's character, and I have not even touched on many of God's other powers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-21-200109:23 PM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ no no no. not trying to get you lynched at all. trust me, i think everything we discuss here goes right over the idiot's head anyway. THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-21-200109:27 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Mike Sorrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ **Freegrace beats himself in the head and wonders why he spent all this time on a post (which should be punishment enough) then says to Mike Sorrow...I'm sorry...sorta*** freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 01-21-2001 at 09:49 PM.] posted 01-21-200109:40 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Good Night All ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Morbideus, when you state "There is no universal truth" are you not stating a universal truth? Shokan, there are two types of questions skeptics ask. Some ask sincere questions because they really want to know. Others ask questions because they want to stump or humiliate. The reason I won't answer these questions is that even if I took the time to do so you probably still wouldn't believe. I won't kill myself in those situations. Mike Sorrow...I hope you saw my last post. I hope the issue of evolution didn't bother you. I really wasn't trying to resurrect debate. I just finally remembered where I heard the statement about the fossil record and I knew I wasn't crazy. That's all...freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-21-200110:30 PM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Freegrace, it didn't bother me at all I was kidding. And my other Letter to MM was a SATIRE. It wasn't meant to be serious. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-21-200110:34 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
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