| Hello, Rosa_McGee [ logout ] profile | register | faq | search | forum home (Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 ) << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> Marilyn Manson BBS > Marilyn Manson > To all the openminded I say welcome. The great theology thread has returned! Author Message freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Mike Sorrow ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I understand now. Sometime I'll try to read the thread. Just remember I take everything literally so I may not pick up on satire all the time. Just Kidding. LOL Thanks for being such a good sport about the evolution deal. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-22-200108:36 AM Mike Sorrow Member 2179 Posts Member since: 10-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No problem. - Mike Sorrow - posted 01-22-200109:15 AM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 freegrace ------------------------------------------------------------------------ all those questions i posted are valid. And how can you say that if you answered them all, i wouldnt believe? Your just assuming. I believe that most of those questions cannot be answered. IF they could, i would be amazed and consider believing again. I try too hard. posted 01-22-200111:53 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Shokan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I appreciate your feedback and I'm sorry if I misjudged you. In all honesty, if I'm not mistaken, your initial post said that anytime a mormon, Jehovah's Witness or anyone else comes to your door to hand those to them. I don't remember exactly but I thought that part of that, either you said it or someone else said it, was so they wouldn't bother you any more. Let me ask you a question, how many of those questions have you honestly tried to answer yourself? Did you develop them? I thought that although you attribute it to a friend that you had a great deal of work in this from the last time you posted it. If you did, then you must know a great deal about the Bible. Most of them have very simple answers. You are a smart guy and I am confident that if you looked at the Scriptures and the verses you are mentioning in context you could come up with logical conclusions for at least some of them. Even so, if your goal is to disprove Christianity, when I was a debater in high school, I was taught that the best way to win a debate is to know what the opposing view point is going to say. By not having anticipated the best possible answer for these questions, you have left yourself vulnerable. Let's do this, you put forth an earnest attempt to at least provide possible answers for all of them, and I will do my best to fill in the blanks. Don't leave one question unanswered or say I don't know or anything of the like. Actually try to think of any possible answer. If you do that and email me at joepachat@hotmail.com or post them here, I will try to fill in the blanks when I have time. I am willing to help people that are really searching, but to ask me to spend what would take weeks to even attempt is asking a great deal. There are entire books written about some of the questions (for example, what happens to people who stop believing?, etc). In order to help you, I would recommend looking at the specific verses you are asking about in www.biblestudytools.net or www.bible.org (the bi. Most of the answers should be there. If you go to www.biblestudytools.net and do a search and click on "include study tools" you should be able to find several commentaries that can give you scholars opinions on those verses. On Bible.org the Bible Studies hyperlink and the Q&A tend to be most helpful. Once that is done, I would do my best within my schedule to answer any remaining issues or address any lingering thoughts. The choice is up to you. If you earnestly want an answer to these questions, do the groundwork and I will do my best to help you out. Deal? You decide. As you saw before, last time you asked me to look at only 4 questions, it took me 3 hours to just answer four of them. To do that with over 150 is asking a lot...freegrace P.S. On some questions, regarding discrimination and women, you say certain things are "clearly wrong." What is your basis for saying that anything is clearly wrong? What may be wrong to you may not be wrong to someone else. By saying it is clearly wrong you are stating that there must be some objective moral code that everyone should live by. What is that code? 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 01-22-2001 at 10:24 PM.] [This message was edited by freegrace on 01-22-2001 at 10:26 PM.] posted 01-22-200110:18 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Let's add a little humor to the thread ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Children⤙s Prayers A daddy was listening to his child say his prayer "Dear Harold" At this, dad interrupted and said, ⤜Wait a minute, "How come you called God, "Harold"" The little boy looked up and said, "That's what they call Him in church. You know the prayer we say, "Our Father, who art in Heaven, Harold be Thy name" ********** During the minister' prayer one Sunday, there was a loud whistle from one of the back pews. Gary's mother was horrified. She pinched him into silence, and after church, asked: "Gary, whatever made you do such a thing?" Gary answered soberly: "I asked God to teach me to whistle... And He just then did!" ********** One night Mike's parents overheard this prayer. "Now I lay me down to rest, and hope to pass tomorrow's test, if I should die before I wake, that's one less test I have to take." ********** A five-year-old said grace at family dinner one night. "Dear God, thank you for these pancakes." When he concluded, his parents asked him why he thanked God for the pancakes when they were having chicken. He smiled and said, "I thought I'd see if He was paying attention tonight." ********** A little boyâ's prayer. "Dear God, please take care of my daddy and my mommy and my sister and my brother and my doggy and me. Oh, please take care of yourself, God. If anything happens to you, we're gonna be in a big mess." ********** A rabbi said to a precocious six-year-old boy: "So your mother says your prayers for you each night? Very commendable. What does she say?â¤? The little boy replied, "Thank God he's in bed!" ********** A woman invited some people to dinner. At the table, she turned to her six-year-old daughter and said, "Would you like to say the blessing?" I wouldn't know what to say," the little girl replied. "ust say what you hear Mommy say" the mother said. The little girl bowed her head and said, "Dear Lord, why on earth did I invite all these people to dinner?" ********** Johnny had been misbehaving and was sent to his room. After a while he emerged and informed his mother that he had thought it over and then said a prayer. "Fine," said the pleased mother. "If you ask God to help you not misbehave, He will help you." "Oh, I didn't ask Him to help me not misbehave," said Johnny. II asked Him to help you put up with me." ********** A little boy was overheard praying:"Lord, if You can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it. I'm having a real good time like I am" 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-22-200110:32 PM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 freegrace ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I dont know most of these answers. That's why i asked the questions, to learn the answers. Some of the more complex questions, such as numbers 3, 26, 51, 91, 102 and 121, i couldnt even begin to answer. Those questions, among some others ones, were asked by a friend of mine, studying World Religions (its his minor) in University. "Clearly wrong". Im speaking from the basis of North American society, which I was raised in. I'm only assuming you were raised here as well. The morals are, racism is wrong and so is discriminating against women solely based on their gender, what i was raised to believe. Maybe back when the Bible was written, these were acceptable. But not now. Not to get off topic, but if those passages permit the use of racism and discrimination, why doesn't North America, which is 85% Christian, follow these beliefs today? Why do most Christians only follow what applies to them and their situation? I try too hard. posted 01-23-200107:49 AM Rosa_McGee Member 841 Posts Member since: 08-16-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *sigh* ... i'll never catch up with all this....too busy right now posted 01-23-200110:52 AM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ saying that atheists are depressed because their atheists is like saying Christians are violent because they're Christians. doesn't make much sense now does it? THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-23-200110:54 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Shokan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In high school, I was a debater as my assumption is that many people were on this bbs. As a debater, I was often forced to debate positions that I was not in agreement with and do my best to understand those positions from their point of view. Oftentimes, this endeavor required a great deal of research because I had to look into things I could not possibly understand. Fortunately for me, the reasons I know the arguments against Christianity is that they came straight from my own mouth for most of my life. The reason you can't answer these questions is that you have not researched them as if you were an advocate of the position. Imagine yourself as a Christian who is defending the deity of Christ, the authority of the Scriptures, and the exclusive truth claims of Christ. As best you can, use the tools I have given you on the internet to formulate your best arguments. For instance, I'll take questions #3 which is, "3. If a Catholic, justify the Inquisition and other persecutions of "heretics" throughout the centuries, concentrating on why the Pelagianists, the Priscillianists, and the Manichaeans were persecuted; if a Protestant, justify the witch trials and the way that Protestants constantly hunted down native Americans until there were so few that the government could simply take their land; if a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, justify the persecutions of the Old Believers after the reforms of the seventeenth century." Ravi Zacharias says that you should not measure the truth of a belief system by the level of its abuse. Asking me to justify this is like saying, "If you are an atheist, justify the acts of Stalin, the killings in Cambodia, the consistent acts of violence by atheists throughout the history of time." or "If you are a Slayer fan, justify the actions of the group of boys who are on trial for killing a group of teenage girls because they wanted to be like Slayer and whose parents are currently suing the band." Clearly the acts of these people are not representative of all of atheism or the musical artists. I'd love to see a question like, "If you are a Christian, justify the acts of Mother Teresa, the great deal of missionary work that is going on abroad with programs like World Vision and Compassion International who give food to the poor, the fact that the founders of this country established a constitution based on the theological assumptions of the Bible which our nation chooses to reject and etc." The question is are the actions of these individuals indicative of the belief system they professed? Obviously not. For Jesus Himself said, "27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 "And just as you want people to treat you, treat them in the same way. 32 "And if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same amount. 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." The same is true of the issue of discrimination in America. Keep in mind that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they really are one. A lot of people say they are Manson fans but they are really just posers. As Jesus said,"16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits." Incidentally if you would take the time to research the passages you highlighted with the tools I gave you (I am willing to bet the www.bible.org has a great deal to say about the biblical perspective of womanhood and manhood) you would probably find that the verses you are quoting are saying the opposite of what you say they are talking about. How much time have you put into studying these verses before making these claims? Are you just taking your friend's word for it? On the issue of the Old Testament actions, review the point I made to Devilmunchkin about Judges. In America, when people fight the attrocities of Bosnia, Saddam Hussein, and Hitler, we call them heroes. When they did it in the Old Testament, we accuse God of being intolerant and judgmental. A greater research into the activities of the civilizations that the Israelites fought again would uphold this claim. Shokan, my challenge is for you to take the place of the debator who positions himself to be the best arguer of both sides. Do your best to imagine yourself as an advocate of Christianity and provide the best answers. It takes a great deal of research to answer these questions but some of them would take no less research on my part. You say you can't answer them but my question is have you put a concerted effort to try to with the tools I gave you rather than relying on me to spoon feed the answer. Either you will come out of it stronger in what you believe or it will show you that maybe there is some wisdom to the position you are attacking. On the issue of the moral law, I really don't see the basis for which you are establishing your moral law. What if someone was raised differently than you are? Is it still clearly wrong for them to do so? I find it interesting that people choose to condemn God and hold Him to a standard of treatment of humans when they themselves do not want to be held to an objective standard for morality. Nevertheless, I hope this helps. By the way, how is La_Morte? Your friend, Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200111:31 AM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 freegrace ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You know, you really piss me off sometimes. Gimme me a few weeks to research, and ill get back to you. La_Morte is crazy as usual. Im going to see her in less than 2 weeks. I try too hard. posted 01-23-200111:37 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Devilmunchkin and Rosa ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rosa, I understand. It takes forever to read it and it has taken me a long time to write a lot of it. Feel free to come in and out as you please. Devilmunchkin, if you recall, my original reason for posing the question was that I asked the people on the bbs to tell me what the subjective reasons are for believing what they believe. My point is for all the discussions about how Christianity is morally binding, I don't see that their belief system is doing a whole lot to make their lives better. Incidentally, I think Mike Sorrow's statement is very enlightening. It is probably one of the deepest comments on the whole thread. Incidentally, I really don't see a comparison. I have yet to meet one atheist that is happy and fulfilled in life. However, I have met few Christians that are as violent as you all make them out to be. As for existentialism, I think it would be an interesting exercise to read about the lives of the great thinkers you are quoting. I guess my preference would be that you answer my question asking for subjective reasons why someone else should believe as you do. If all we're going to do is die, I can't understand why so many people would embrace a view that is so hopeless (not necessarily yours). I believe that there must be something more than what we see before us. God Bless, Freegrace P.S. Devilmunchkin, about your biology professor, is he a theist? It is interesting that Baylor has such a great advocate for evolution. Actually I think it is good. It will stretch some of those baptist kid's minds. 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow [This message was edited by freegrace on 01-23-2001 at 11:43 AM.] posted 01-23-200111:37 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Shokan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My intention was not to anger you but to stretch you and challenge your assumptions. If you put the work in discovering the answers it will mean a whole lot more than if I spoon feed it to you. I'm glad to hear La_Morte is fine. She's a great girl. Hopefully you'll get to see her soon. That is really awesome news about your upcoming visit. I'm happy for you. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200111:40 AM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ yeah, i know. I was just kidding around. I try too hard. posted 01-23-200111:43 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 I know you're kidding ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just want to make sure you know why I'm doing this. It's for your own good. Like eating vegetables Tell me how things go with La_Morte on your visit. That is cool. Questions for the self-proclaimed "Beer God": 1. What is the beer of choice? 2. How many beers does it take to get a beer God buzz? 3. Have you tried Canadian Beer? See you later my friend...Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200111:47 AM Shokan Member 6009 Posts Member since: 09-08-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. What is the beer of choice? - Budweiser. 2. How many beers does it take to get a beer God buzz? Buzzed - 7. Drunk - 11. 3. Have you tried Canadian Beer? I AM Canadian. I try too hard. posted 01-23-200111:48 AM devilmunchkin Member 3003 Posts Member since: 08-19-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ but you haven't met all athiests. And i will say that you've met one, me, whose life has actually gotten better since i made that move to atheism. I have something to believe in: me. I'm not sure if Dr. Wivagg is a theist. ask him! THROUGH ME YOU GO INTO PAIN THAT IS ETERNAL, THROUGH ME YOU GO AMONG PEOPLE LOST. JUSTICE MOVED MY EXALTED CREATOR: THE DIVINE POWER MADE ME, THE SUPREME WISDOM AND THE PRIMA LOVE. BEFORE ME ALL CREATED THINGS WERE ETERNAL, AND ETERNAL WILL LAST. ABANDON EVERY HOPE YOU WHO ENTER HERE. Dante's Inferno, Canto III posted 01-23-200111:49 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 True ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I haven't met all atheists. So tell me, what are some subjective reasons to accept your views? How will my life be made better? Feeling better (although I'm not sure if your family is a model of Christianity) is a long way from happy. Are you happy? If you continue in your current belief system, will you ever be (this does not involve external factors like Nihilist)? Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200111:52 AM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Incidentally Devilmunchin... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To answer the questions I posed to you: I am very happy. I love life. That is not to say that I do not hurt or experience pain but I can say that the longer I grow closer to the Lord, the more joy I have. I have probably experienced more hurt and pain from external circumstances since becoming a Christian, but my overall joy has been greater. Happiness is often based on circumstance, but joy is something that no one can take from you. In my life, I have gained a great deal of hope from Christianity and my greatest desire is to give it to others. I believe there are many objective reasons to believe in Christ, but subjectively I can honestly say, that accepting Christ was the best decision I ever made. While I don't know every Christian and some would certainly say otherwise (although as I said to Shokan, I question a lot of people who call themselves Christian when they are not) I have met many other Christians who would say the same, before and after becoming one myself. Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200112:01 PM freegrace Member 945 Posts Member since: 10-31-2000 Shokan and everyone else ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I didn't know you were Canadian. That's what I get for making assumptions. I'm off to run some errands. Everyone have a great day! Freegrace 2 Thes 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." "The reason true atheists (not your average "I-don't-like- what-mommy-and-daddy-say-so-I-hate-God" rebellious teen) are depressed is because atheism offers no hope, only proof. Proof of no hope." Mike Sorrow posted 01-23-200112:03 PM catholicgirl Junior Member 24 Posts Member since: 01-19-2001 Freegrace's question pour moi ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Catholicgirl, welcome to the thread. Incidentally I was raised in a Catholic home. My mother is a devout Catholic but my father is an agnostic. However, like many people on this bbs, my family mainly attends church out of tradition and they do not believe the tenents of the faith (mainly many things in the Nicene creed. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your answering these questions: 1. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for certain that if you were to die today you would go to heaven or is that something you are still working on? 2. Suppose you were to die today, and God were to ask you why should I let you into my heaven, what would you say (I realize this is a hypothetical question and God might not ask you this question but I'd be curious of your response nevertheless)? 3. How do you reconcile God's love and mercy (1 John 4:8) and his justice (Nahum 1:3, Mat 25:46))? Freegrace, My first reaction to your questions was, "Oh dear, another person who believes that Catholics can't possibly be Christians." Below, you will find the answers to my questions. Please know that I've heard them all before because I've asked them. I used to be a Protestant just like you (I even attended, gasp, Bible college). 1. Both. I am saved through the gift of God and daily I work out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phillippians 2:12, Matthew 5:16). I don't believe that this is the either/or situation that the fundamentalists make it out to be. The Psalmist discusses "waiting for salvation" many, many times. Salvation is still a free gift (no boasting allowed-Ephesians 2:9). 2. I'd say that because I'm a miserable sinner that I shouldn't be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. I'm not worthy of the gift of salvation. The Bible says that I will have eternal life if I confess that I believe that Christ died for me (John 3:16). 3. God made me and sent his only son to die for me. With this knowledge I can: ignore God, blashpheme God, or serve him. God's justice depends on what we do with our lives. Am I lukwarm (Revelation 3:16) or perfect (Matthew 19:21)? God doesn't strongarm anyone into loving Him. We have a choice. We make choices daily about how we are going to live our lives. Freegrace, may a humbly suggest that you read the Catholic Catechism to see what Catholics really believe. There are tremendous misconceptions that Protestants have about Catholicism. You might also want to check out Karl Keatings' Catholicism and Fundamentalism. Respectfully, Amanda Smith catholicsinner@hotmail.com posted 01-23-200102:50 PM All times are PST . << next newest topic | next oldest topic >> | Page:Next Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 |
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