The elite of India are coming out of their closets, that is no surprise, against a failed and fucked up social and political malady called "Reservation." The liberals of the United States of America, especially those Harvard chhota nabobs who elaborately designed a system to emancipate the poor blacks from their age old self inflicted malaise. The same liberals, rather, bleeding heart liberals have accepted the defeat of their cherished centerpiece of generous and unlimited dole to their, meaning, Democratic party's main support group, traditionally working class, blue collar, unionized white labor and the poorest of poor forgotten blacks whose only strength is the assurance that they shall vote if they are paid from the state treasury for being poor and being black or both.

New techniques of social regeneration and infusing the self awareness are not uncommon in the field of social sciences and cutting edge political sciences field of studies. Poor must be prepared to take advantage of the opportunities extended to them. Otherwise the state scheme turn out more welfare queens and habitual cheats who make it their business to remain poor just so that they can be within the state delineated poverty line that sustains their empty and pathetic lives.

Isn't there some kind of human spirit that does not allow self pity, self delusion and self denial of the extent one can reach any goals, be they personal, family or social? Why does a system that has proven almost useless under all scrutiny be perpetuated in the name of social justice?

The poverty is a disease, a condition not necessarily an economic condition that goes away by infusion of massive money. America is a rich nation where farmers are paid not to grow produce as the market which determines the prices cannot be inundated with unnecessary stockpile of farmers' fruits. Dairy farmers are paid for their milk and milk products on a regular basis so that the supply and demand factors can be tamed. The government has capacity to absorb the seasonal ups and down and such methods are essentially to keep the economy rolling smoothly.

Reservation for the Shudras in India serves no such purpose as they do not avail the opportunity to better themselves, squander the opportunities by reluctantly pursuing their lackadaisical educational and career goals with the now universally hated and despised 'Reservation,' protection.

"Easy come and easy go," would be the way I see the reservation quotas being misused by those whose only claim is to their caste mark not the need as checked by any standard eligibility test.

Students in the United States of America are promised and encouraged to attend colleges and universities even when they themselves or their parents could not afford the ever rising cost of higher education. The fair assessment is made of person's capacity to put all his income, the income and assets of his parents and if that does not meet the college education costs then various government or private, commercial scheme are brought in to supplement the overbearing cost.

The strong desire cannot be handed out like money, loans or student aid. That element is as much essential as mere few dollars either given free or with minimal stress on student when he completes his education and career goals. There is no such demonstrated strong desire on the part of the recipients of this government dole in India. The aid is just that. A help to get a motivated poor person to exert himself or herself to be a better person and compete with others whose goals may be similar and parallel to his.

The competitive spirit is lacking among the Shudras. Fifty years is a long enough time to make them realize that protection is not heaven in itself. All humans believe in some form of rewards as going to heaven. All religions stress the fact that one has all the power to reach the heaven by being good or go to hell by being bad. This is an egalitarian concept and transcends the artificial human social and economical, as well as sexual divisions. Everyone is given a chance, a fair chance to go to heaven. Only those who refute the fact that there ain't no such thing as heaven and disregard the value of their personal input end up in hell, knowingly and willingly.

I dislike such an affront to the essential goodness of human race. How bad it is for a person to learn that work, both intellectual and physical is the only salvation from their woes not sucking on government blood like leaches. How many more years do you think they need to straighten their holy mess of pitiful lives? Another fifty to be extended by yet another fifty? Or is it a license to be poor?

Poverty of mind is what must be fought with vengeance, not economical poverty. Shudras are not poor because they cannot make money. I know many who are multimillionaires, perhaps dozens, nay, hundred of them. They try to be more Brahmins than their caste affiliations would permit. They evade their own brothers and sisters as if they have achieved Brahmin nirvana. Their collective responsibility is to show the ropes of their successful rise from the meager roots. Enthuse the less fortunate, help them to understand the value of waiting for the real gains, real money, real power and suffer till that point like anybody else, including Brahmins.

No such luck. One of my multimillionaire Shudra buddy has two gorgeous kids, boy and a girl. Both born and brought up in the USA with extreme care and lots of loose change to become proud American citizens. They both are at a stage to marry. The poor rich Shudra brother of mine see no suitable match for them and refuses to have the kids decide such matters of heart themselves. The right candidate must come from his sub-sub-sub-super sub Shudra caste or no go.

This uppity Shudra makes me mad and he knows that. He reasons that traditions and family and caste requirements cannot be wiped out by his noble actions. He is mere member of that small society and possesses no more power than average dehumanized and poor member of his caste. Such a pathetic lie. Such nincompoop thinking.

If the best of the Shudras come to this point, having received all the benefits of the system what more proof you need to accept my proposition that no more freeloading. Social injustices and superstitious behavior cannot be legislated away, so is social poverty of mind. If the rich Shudras want to fuck around with their notions that Brahmins misbehaved vis a vis their traditional neglected selves, the blame should squarely placed on their own shoulders.

Brahmins are bad, that is the understatement of this millennium on my part but Shudras are worst than all those heinous Brahmins put together. Two wrongs cannot make one right and bashing Brahmins could be a Shudra sport, also mine, but it is cruel sport that brings no succor to Shudras. Self introspection is a key to this carcinogenic genie in the bottle. Brahmins in one corner and Shudras in the other must take a deep breath and indulge in this self introspection thingy instead of pummeling each other with fisticuffs, jabs, hooks, nose bleeds and swollen eyes. The bell has rung. No more fists.

Thanks to the Times of India dated November 4, 1999.

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/04edit1.htm

Sid Harth..."Mind is a terrible thing to waste, that is if you are lucky to have one, Shudras, unfortunately don't, a mere mass of cry babies."

My dear Sunil,

I am not accustomed to a well thought out, sane response to my article. Other than minor variations which can demonstrate your yet formative years, we both agree on almost all major points of my thesis.

I have no reservations on the government policy of continuing the system of reservation. I have no particular influence on comings and goings of any government, be it of Congress variety of the past or the saffron variety of the present.

If some Shudra such as you have feelings, as good as I have feelings towards the multifaceted monster called discrimination against a class of Indian citizens they must account for some hearing. The promise of Jawaharlal Nehru administration and the subsequent Congress and the coalitions of third front parties to mollycoddle the Shudras till it hurt, is a false promise. It is time that such vacant promise be reexamined if not not abolished altogether.

Theoretically British had this attitude for the whole of territory they occupied under a gun and bayonet. British liberals maintained that the dirty and dark Indians, that unfortunately includes Brahmins and all other so called high castes needed a policy now understood as "Ma Baap sarkar."

This policy stipulated that all efforts be made to improve the overall conditions of the territory, establish the educational, legal and social institutions, allow the smart among the lot to take advantage of the British laid systems, learn the ropes and make themselves productive to help British govern the territory.

From chaprassis to the high court judges took this opportunity and served the British empire legitimizing their invasion. Some thought that such a chance is the only chance they are ever going to get out of a foreign administration and no matter how ridiculous the proposition was and how pitiful were the powers they possessed, they endured.

That kind of accommodating spirit, learning from the experience, deliberately seeking and serving the white superiors paid sumptuously as the same hated British institutions, including the edifices have been retained and still working far better than any of the local chhota nabob methods of governing.

Shudras had the same chances as the Brahmins in British system. I understand the casteism and nepotism associated with having some kind of power with which more Brahmins and more Brahmin wannabes entered the civil service, postal service, railway service and made themselves useful while becoming adept at solving problems.

Shudras of today, after fifty years of blanket protection, encouragement and general improvement in their lifestyles are not biting the bullet. They rather play this silly game of historical wrongs and keep pumping the system dry without showing anything for their gains.

One of the benefits you think the reservation system gave to Shudras is self awareness as regards to their collective clout which dominates the socio political behavior of theirs, namely the 'vote bank' status. This is a false power. As long as Shudras do not agree among themselves and prefer to make some or other chieftain bat for them such power is a waste of their time.

The real power is the one which elects the representatives of the community and whose roots are strongly implanted into the maistream Shudra heritage. Shudra leaders show no inclination or appetite to make rest of them to rise above the status of huddled masses as well as Brahmins.

This is a classic proxy fighting. The proxy holding person manages to make decisions but does not care to relay that decision to the masses and justifies his actions based upon his right to speak for the ignorant bunch. Some or other benifit passes on to the ultimate recipient but most all is pocketed by these middlemen.

The wheeling and dealing of politics notwithstanding such crass impertinent behavior on the part of known Shudra nabobs is the reason the reservation policies continue unabated. This is called dilution of power. Brahmin administrators in British reign did not do so. They were totally and completely responsible for their actions. How many Shudra leaders worth the name carry that clear policy of accountability?

Every one of the public figure who rose from the lowly status had amassed wealth disproportionate to their powers and made their position secure rather than ameliorating the lot of which they take full responsibility? Constant Brahmin carping about the inherent dichotomy of Shudra leaders now become household words is as much true as Shudra carping about Brahmin disregard and clanish behavior. Both speak with forked tongues.

As Brahmins claim that they tried in earnest to improve the Shudra lot by accepting non Aryan races into their Aryan syatem yet Shudras themselves showed no keen interest in hopping from that ground floor job to the higher category. That accusation is fair. Where is that Brahmin's indomitable fighting spirit? Where is the sacrifice, the individual and collective sacrifice among the Shudras? The apprenticeship is a hard status and almost all apprentices would testify that advantages are taken due to their masters' will to milk the cash cow.

However after due diligence and patience the former apprentice becomes master himself and can extend his personal gain by making others of his kind into productive and respective members of the trade or guild. Gujjus, Marwaris prospered in Bombay because they bring cheap labor from their territory and make them work hard for pittance. In the process the hard working ethics are passed on from one entrepreuner to the other. How many Shudras do you know who did this or capable of doing it to their own clansmen?

The former white collar jobs which made Brahmins to rise simply cannot be created to serve the growing demand among the educated Shudras. The reservation serves no purpose in jobs as jobs require the minimum capabilities as the education does the same.

The need of Shudras cannot be met by making them fake clerks, fake teachers, fake doctors and fake engineers. The commerce and industry cannot be sustained with such inefficient labor pool, neither can a government machinery where dollar's worth of labor must be presented to earn a dollar, Shudra's ten cents worth of contribution cannot do the job.

Specific pockets of enlightened Shudra population must be rewarded for their selfless contributions towards improving the lot in their community. Success begets success but Shudras do not want to open an account in this profitable scheme. Those who learned to take advantage of the system run away to be bunch of Brahmin wannabes leaving the really needy among their clan to be worthless human beings who cannot seem to get it no matter what.

Shudras cannot deify their misbehaving leaders and Brahmins ought not to demonify them for the same reasons. A mutual understanding of the root cause of the problem is not historical neglect, though I do not deny that. It is the will power to stick with the progress and gather as much of that elusive power to make a good start. Shudras must learn that a cent of earned profit is better than a dollar of donated alms. Donated dollars have a bad habit of vanishing the earned cent hold a promise to grow.

Sid

Sunil wrote in message news:3821A1ED.760582A9@idirect.com...

Sid, I must commend on your loquacity !

I am a so-called Sudra, dalit, low caste, etc etc. I do agree with some of your comments below. However, there are certain points which I want to comment on.

My comments are my own feelings on the situation. I am also not very old (agewise) to say, that I have experienced lot of casteism in past. I have heard from my elders about their sad experiences etc, etc. So whatever, I say, is my judgement and what I feel.

See my comments below !

> Sid Harth wrote: > > > The elite of India are coming out of their closets, that is no surprise, ... rest deleted.

Yes, such techniques do exist but are not being used in India. The timn the reservation were granted in the first place were lot more different then today. There were greater divisions among the people physically and otherwise also that time. Economically, dalits were weaker, most of them still are. I feel that reservations have served multipurposes. Firstly, it has lead to "some" growth in the status of the dalits. Some have used it to their intellectual advancement (very few, though). Secondly, it has served as a vote bank for the governments and thirdly, it has crippled dalits further (unfortunately, many of them). If you give something to someone on silver platter, why struggle for it.

I feel that along with reservations, had there been efforts for the social awakening for the dalits from within dalits and outside, it would have been lot more effective and country could have gotten rid of reservation system. Now the situation is such that, there is so much clamour on "lot" of reservation being there. The reality is that most of it goes unused because either candidates are not there or some tricks are played so that eleigible candidates don't get it.

Believe me, Sid, it does happen. Eligible candidates from dalits don't get it, event though they are qualified. It is unfortunately not a WYSIWYG situation.

> > Isn't there some kind of human spirit that does not allow self pity, self > > delusion and self denial of the extent one can reach any goals, be they > > personal, family or social?... further portion deleted.

yeah !

Exactly, sudras/dalits would never reach, where they want to reach, even if you allow reservations for 1000 more years to come. They are still detached from the mainstream. Unfortunately, government is perpetuating the propblem too. They keep on continuing it for the sake of votes, mostly. Believe me, no body wants to see the dalits rise, from higher castes. It is not in anybody's interest. If I have the power as a brahmin today, why would I want to share it with a dalit.

Sometimes, I feel that the situation is similar to that of an alcoholic. You keep him happy by giving them more booze, so that he won't stand on his own. Dalits have to search themselves, they have to introspect. They have to realize that being sudra/dalit is not a social stigma, it has been made to be. A person with low esteem would never rise, whatever he/she does. I have found the problem of low self esteem, the biggest problem with dalits. It is a self-feeding situation. They ca't say proudly, that I am dalit. I say to such people, shame on them, they are pathetic.

> > Reservation for the Shudras in India serves no such purpose... Portions deleted.

Yes, most of them do not avail it. It is not a complete eyewash, but it is not used up either !

> > "Easy come and easy go," would be the way I see the reservation quotas... Portions deleted.

yeah !

The competitive spirit is lacking among the Shudras. Fifty years is a long... Portions deleted.

I hate sudras/dalits who reach a particular status and forget where they came from. The reason is that they still carry that social stigma with them. They have to realize that you can't always force other people to change opinions about yourself by cajoling them ot by self pitying. Most of sudras/dalits curse themselves. They don't want to be known as dalits. What's wrong with it. Dammit, we are the original inhabitants of India !. We are also born of our proud mothers, not out of brahma's head, mouth, arms etc. Sudras/dalts who hate themselves, who don't want to be known as what they are, I say burn in hell.

If you hate yourself, who would love you. Why hide ? Did we commit some genocide, like Nazis ? Do we not have enough intelligence ? Do we not have guts?

They have to realize that nobody really cares for them. They have to care for themselves. They thmselves have to rise to the occasion. They themselves have to create situation so that, other people are forced to change their minds. If they don't, we fuck them. We are large in number. At this point, we don't have unity. THE ONLY reason for it is that dalits themselves don't want to be known as dalits.

MY FINAL COMMENTS !

RESERVATION SHOULD CONTINUE UNTIL, THE ATTITUDE OF THE SO-CALLED HIGHER CASTES, IS NOT NORMALIZED (THEY ARE CHANGING, THOUGH). SUDRAS/DALITS SHOULD LOOK AT RESERVATION NOT AS ALMS BUT AS RESTITUTION FROM OTHER CASTES. YES, WE HAVE RIGHT TO THE RESERVATION BUT WE DON'T HAVE RIGHT TO NOT WORK HARD. BE PROUD OF YOURSELF, WORK HARD, BE TOUGH AND REMEMBER IF YOU HATE YOURSELF, THEN BURN IN HELL OR CALL ME TO KICK YOUR ASS.

Without Prejudice,

Sunil

No such luck. One of my multimillionaire Shudra buddy has two gorgeous... Portions deleted.

Sid Harth wrote in message news:IVjU3.27909$23.1475333@typ11.nn.bcandid.com... My dear Sunil,

Gail Omvedt of Poona University writes about the nitty gritty of Dalit Vote Bank and the rise of Dalit political power. Since one of your points was the benefits derived by the Dalits from government dole out and since you did not adequately demonstrate your point I venture to quote Gail, old babe of mine.

A marginal increase in Shudra voting pattern for their former lords and masters, that is Brahmins of Zandewalan kind is Brahmin gain. On the contrary, definite dip in voting for their bleeding heart liberators, your Jawaharlal Nehru family business, Inc. is to be outlined with yellow marker as the most significant event of this century.

Socialism of Jawaharlal Nehru did not go well among the right wing Congress goons. It did not go well with Brahmins overall. Separate Socialist party and separate Communist party always made fun of Jawaharlal Nehru's London School of Economics' Harold Laskey losers. I have no doubt that Nehru's bleeding heart had sufficient sympathy for the lost and forgotten tribes of native Indians, what with his blue blooded Kashmiri Brahmin heritage.

The run on the Shudra Vote bank started in earnest by Nehru's words and deeds. Socialists of Jayaprakash Narayan, S. M. Joshi, Ashok Mehta did not doubt the intent of Nehru dole thrown at Dalits, they did not want their traditional vote bank to be robbed by Nehru like preppy boy. Communists were well entrenched in the business of promising moon to the Dalit morons but by that time they had no means to deliver what they promised. Later, in Kerala Communists like E.M.S. Nambudripad wrestled the power from Congress but failed to deliver the promiseland for the Shudras.

Bengal Communists also failed to bring the communist heaven down on the earth. The Shudras are always taken advantage of by Brahmins, as all these major players, I mean one hundred percent, were pucca Brahmins Shripad Amrit Dange of Maharashtra and all. The collective power of Shudra vote in democratic India saw another window of opportunity of emancipation but there was no Abraham Lincoln like massive efforts to combat the devil of subjugation of Shudras by the Brahmin and Brahmin wannabe chhota nabobs.

Nehru had many problems and such ideas as radically change the society to stop Shudra enslavement was not on top of his agenda. "Mere crumbs," that is how I would characterize the Nehruvian efforts to better the life and times of Shudras and Tribal. Not bad start, however.

The Shudras, as is their custom, squandered this manna from heaven. They kept their collective mouths stuffed with Nehruvian pork and remained silent majority to be heard only when Congress Patel Motelwallahs crowd knocked their doors to pay homage to their heritage and heretic ways. Dr. Ambedkar failed even to get elected, thanks to the Poona Brahmin cabal. Ambedkar had dreams but no political clout among his brothers who refused to be led by his Poona Brahmin school, spit and polished words and ways.

Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar did not have the power, not even the patina of Mahatma Gandhi who assumed the mantle of Shudra savior and stole Shudra power thunder right under this preppy, Columbia University doctorate holder, leaving him in the political dust long before he could organize terribly divided Shudras into a viable force to reckon with.

Dr. Amebedkar was so Brahminized that an average Shudra, a Mahar from his community could not figure what he was talking or talking about, much less his high falutin social emancipation dogma. Ambedkar is deified after he died by the same folks who would not give him time of the day or a dime to support his movement. Ambedkar, above all, lived like a Brahmin in Hindu colony, Dadar, Bombay, away from his constituency who lived like dogs in say Dharavi slums, said to be the largest and the worst slum of all times in the world.

That kind of distance between his so called followers and his Brahminic ways is sure sign that Ambedkar failed in his mission before taking one single step. The Ambedkar phenomena must be carved, etched in the Shudra psyche as a model of how Shudras themselves become more of a toll of their oppressors than acquire savior's crown after they better themselves.

Sunil is blessed and so is my friend who is a multi millionaire in America but seem lost in the jungle of caste superiority of Brahmins. Ambedkar married outside his caste and station. A fact also pertinent to the argument. I applaud his courage and fortitude in selecting woman to marry and did disobey family and clan traditions. The educated and emancipated Shudra like Sunil and others must keep this factor in mind as it affect their rise and fall. Just as soon as they rise with little elbow grease and little helping hand from Brahmin schemes, they turn their back towards their brothers and sisters and become neo Brahmins themselves making their lives useless as far as understanding and solving Shudra problems.

Shudra problems are theirs alone and the solutions must come from them and not from bleeding heart Brahmins of Jawaharlal Nehru variety or his shameless admirer, Atal Behari Vajpayee kind. However bad I treat Brahmins I have come to the conclusion that the Brahmin thrust to organize their power is unmatched in the history of Indian sub continent. That devil, Brahmin is indestructible. I repeat this conviction oft times. That is because I believe that one should learn all about one's enemy and never get false habit of making him insignificant. RSS took good sixty years in meticulously making the plans for their Brahmin empire. Shudras had fifty years, little short time in comparison but the awesome powers that RSS Brahmins wield is a tribute to their selfless, nose to the grinding wheel, frugal fascists methods.

Brahmin can and does see the present and the future. If you ask me this history rewriting bastards have problems in seeing the history, a minor drawback, I say. What Keshav Baliram Hedgevar saw in 1925 and worked his butt off to achieve is the stuff the epics are made of. I think this kind of shameless tribute to that devil is due from me. Perhaps a proof that Rome cannot be built in a day.

Shudra leaders like Laloo Prasad Yadav, Mulayam Singh Yadav, J. Jayalalitha has as much power as they could handle. They failed miserably and lost grip on the power wheel handed to them by Shudra vote bank directors. If reservation scheme is extended and more Sunil like Shudra dudes come out defending the dreaded and dangerous dole hole of reservation, more and more Brahmis would try to dismantle it for good reasons.

The thirst for power or leadership and power is nowhere to be seen among Sunil like preppies who jump the sinking Shudra ship and forget their first and foremost duty to their pathetically messed up brothers and sisters. Talk is cheap and Sunil's basic convictions aside, Shudras have done nothing but talk. Talk nonsense about historic misbehavior of the Brahmins.

So we all know that Brahmins are bad. So we know how bad they are and were. How does that help a Dharavi deluded Shudra to rise above his pathetic lifestyle? Brahmins are bad but they stick together and help each other out. How many rich and powerful Shudras follow that selfish model? None is the best answer but I defer to Sunil on that sticky issue. he may have few examples that he would like the world to know.

Poverty of Shudras is real but their self imposed ignorance of reality is as bad as that of Brahmins. Self delusion is not Brahmin personal backyard patch of vegetable garden. Shudra self delusion is massive. They still believe in getting dole rather than deal with their former masters and oppressors. Fuck around Brahmins, I say. Learn their devilish techniques. Follow in their footsteps and beat them in their own devil's Olympics.

Distancing from Brahmins, both in sociological and political games is a loss to Shudras. Wordy battles on the internet is a poor way of showing to Brahmin cabal that Shudras are ready for rumble. They should face each other and blow each other's brains, just for starters. What follows thereafter may surprise them. The balance of power in politics always favors the more prepared party, however small it may be. Brahmin preparations and training for their ultimate prize, a throne in Indraprastha is a reward not a handout.

Thanks to the cjesa good guys and Gail Omvedt.

http://www.egroups.com/group/cjesa/3793.html?

Sid Harth..."Shudras want that throne on account of their vote bank bottom line. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime."