#Subs_discuss on Austnet

Monday, January 18, 1999

9pm EST

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 ok everybody...get comfortable :)

 lol

* vixen` snuggles back

* des^and^dot gets comfy....but spares y'all the nude sprawl 
on the couch like she would at home :)

 welcome everyone 

 ill just make you all aware of the channel rules before 
we begin

 Questions can be asked at any time during the discussion 
however due to time constraints it would be appreciated if personal
experiences were not discussed, there will be time afterwards to do 
this

 Also the sub play that we all love so much should be kept to 
a minimum or preferably not displayed at all in channel

 If you have a question please indicate so by typing  a ? and 
when you are asked to proceed please do so :)  

 Hopefully we can limit the discussion to an hour to an hour 
and a half, as we know many of you have Master's or Mistress to 
attend to  *grin*

* vidette{CL} smiles...thanks totty

 ?

 SirRon{MzR}?

 lol

* sara{X^L} smiles to totty

 um just testing 

 it works...trust us lol

* totty looks at SirRon{MzR}

 lol

 wb tigereyes

 hello all

 ok...welcome everyone...it's good to see so many 
here

 I thought about what focus i could use regarding 
the topic of abuse and bdsm. I could either look at bdsm 
relationships that become or are abusive, or i could look at 
the effect past abuse has on us in our current relationships 
or potential relationships.

 Based on last week's discussion, it seems that 
abusive history's are a common theme and something that we all 
deal with differently. Most of you seemed keen to discuss this 
further, so that's the direction i have taken.

 I know that it's an issue that many hold close 
to their hearts. It is something that can stir up great wells 
of emotion by simply being discussed. What i would therefore 
request is that we keep all questions and comments until after 
i have finished speaking.

 As a disclaimer, i don't profess to be an expert 
in this field at all. I have researched and listened to what people
have to say. I do know about abuse having been abused sexually 
as a child...so i speak with some personal experience.

 In no way do i claim that my experience or the way 
i dealt with it is the same as anyone else. I understand and 
respect that we all deal with our own issues in our own way and 
i trust that we can all offer each other the same respect and 
understanding.

 Many of us have suffered some form of abuse in 
the past...be it mental, physical, verbal, domestic, sexual, 
childhood, incestual. Abuse comes in many guises. All abuse is 
destructive and leaves scars.

 In talking with submissives who have survived some 
form of abuse, we hear a similar theme, the past is influencing 
their present. They may be involved with a loving, caring person 
now but they keep experiencing difficulties because of past events
 and are stymied as to what to do when their behaviour begins to 
affect the relationship they share with their dominant.

 A few of the most common issues they deal with
 are unfounded fear, moodiness, withdrawing from their partner 
and inability to trust. Any one of these things is enough to stunt
 the growth of any relationship but are particularly deadly to one
 based on the D/s lifestyle.

 Some say abusees are drawn to SM. That the lifestyle
 goes hand in hand with abuse victims. Some say that...yes., BDSM 
-is- used, although informally, in the lives of some people who 
are in less than "ideal" states, mentally and emotionally.

 Especially in some abuse victims, many of whom have
 such disorders as DID (multiple personalities), they have a need
 to feel the abuse/punishment, since they equate that with the 
affection they received from their abuser(s), many of whom were 
also parents. They substitute BDSM for actual abuse, giving 
themselves the psychological "pain fix" they need.

 However, polls of people on alt.sex.bondage seem
 to indicate no particular pattern of abuse, and there have 
been very few, if any, scientific studies of the question. 
Some people see an increased correlation, but there is little
 actual evidence.

 evening all

 shhhhhhhh :)

 sorry i am late

 The effect of abuse by people we trust damages 
the integrity of the self and subsequently self-esteem. When 
abuse involves issues of trust it may result in either a total 
lack of trust or in a naive trusting too much.

 For example, incest, adult/child incest that is, 
may not feel bad when it actually happens. It may be a pleasant 
but confusing experience which only later results in shame. 
The possible results of child abuse that starts early and goes 
on for an extended period, are depression, compulsivity, 
substance abuse, inability to play, inability to interact, 
isolation, eating disorders, lack of intimacy, low self-esteem.

 Dealing with ghosts from the past can be difficult
 for both dominant and submissive.

 You're having a beautiful session of lovemaking 
or in the middle of a scene and without warning your blood turns
 to ice water. You don't know why it happened and neither does 
your partner. You're both left shocked by the sobs, screaming 
or sombre silence that occurred and the walls that have suddenly
appeared between you have left you both feeling helpless.

 Maybe you honestly can't remember what triggered 
it off but you know it was connected to something that happened
 long ago.

 If this sounds familiar you just might be dealing 
with those apparitions that still haunt your life. Getting rid 
of them isn't always easy but it can be done if you're willing 
to work at it.

 It is important to develop some skills to overcome 
the past and its haunting spirits.

 everyone ok so far?

* totty nods

* `barak nods and smiles

 yes vidette

 yep?  good :)

 yes

 I think before you even begin to share your 
thoughts with someone else, you need to do some soul-searching 
and make a decision to open up. Have it all clear in your head. 
It can be a very confusing and sometimes distorted apparition 
in your mind, especially if it's been buried for a long time.

 Once you've made the decision to share, the most 
important thing you need to begin is *communication*. You have 
to open your soul and pour out, in words, all the hurt, fear 
and anger that you've kept hidden away. Ghosts don't do well 
in the sunlight and in many cases simply bringing them out of 
the dark causes them to evaporate before your eyes.

 And in many cases, this is easier said than done. 
I know from my own experience, i became an expert at keeping a 
tight lid on the past. It took me many, many years of soul 
searching and building the courage to be able to tell *anyone*
that my grandfather had sexually molested me for years as a child.

 i'm going to use my own experience here because i 
feel it's relevant to the point i make....

 For many many years, i thought it was my fault...
i let him do it.

 I can now see that keeping a lid on it for so long, 
caused me unbearable pain. For many years i didn't even know where 
the pain was coming from. I became very angry and lived my life in 
turmoil for a long time, which affected all those close to me.

 While it was locked away i couldn't do anything with 
it. It just sat there and festered. I couldn't bear to be touched 
by a man intimately. It felt like the hand of my grandfather. It 
got worse and worse until i couldn't stand sex at all...any form 
of intimacy was repulsive to me.

 I knew i couldn't live my life like that and i 
eventually learnt to let it go. I learnt to forgive him for what 
he did. I forgave him for his weakness, his stupidity and his 
selfishness. I let go of the bitterness and anger. That wasn't 
easy.

 Before you begin to share your thoughts with your 
partner, one idea is to agree on an emotional safeword before 
you begin to journey into the dark places. When you know that 
something is becoming too difficult to deal with, or the wrong 
buttons are being pushed...use your emotional safeword.

 Why getting it out in the open is transformative:

 You move through the shame and secrecy that keeps 
you isolated.

 You move through denial and acknowledge the truth 
of your abuse.

 You make it possible to get understanding and help.

 You get more in touch with your feelings.

 You get a chance to see your experience, and yourself,
through the compassionate eyes of a supporter.

 You make space in relationships for the kind of 
intimacy that comes from honesty.

 You establish yourself as a person in the present 
who is dealing with the abuse in his/her past.

 You eventually feel proud and strong.

 In order to achieve that level of communication 
with your partner, you have to *trust*. Again, when that trust 
has been violated so deeply, it is difficult to find again.

 Expressing yourself openly with a caring partner 
in a loving relationship can secure a bond between lovers that 
is everlasting. A trusting relationship with your partner is 
paramount to your relationship.

 Establishing trust takes time and measures that 
earn the trust and respect of your lover. You learn to trust 
based on actions and consistency within the relationship. How 
this person conducts themselves helps you to establish trust 
that will eventually earn your respect. When you trust your 
lover you are trusting that he/she takes the time to consider 
your safety and well being.

 Planting those seeds of trust can yield some 
beautiful fruit. In order to learn to trust you have to put 
it into action. If you have a dominant who is trustworthy it's 
up to you to give them the trust they have shown they're 
worthy of.

 If they've encouraged you to hand them your 
burdens then you need to begin to loosen them from your back 
so they can be shared. You might grab them back ten times 
before you finally let go completely but you have to make 
a start or it will never happen.

 Why should we do this?

 One, it's important that your partner knows of 
any pyschological triggers. It will prevent needless anxiety on 
his part when something unexplained happens and they won't be 
eft wondering what they did to cause it.

 Two, trust is integral to any BDSM relationship
you cannot submit totally if you don't trust.

 And thirdly, doing SM as part of a mutual, 
consensual relationship can be enormously affirming. SM can be
 a way to give yourself to your lover more deeply than you ever 
thought you could, and can give outlet to fantasies you never 
imagined could come true. This kind of active, dynamic 
self-expression can give a tremendous boost to the self-esteem 
and the psychological well-being of both partners.
 What should we say?

 Tell your dominant about your past and how it 
affects you. Let them know there are problems and how they 
manifest themselves.

 Face the ghosts that are lurking in the closet. 
Talk about the things that cause you to have flashbacks or what 
might have triggered an unpleasant episode. Together you can 
find what cause it and avoid it in the future.

 Don't expect them to be a mind reader and know 
when you're struggling with past hurts and disappointments. 
When things have calmed down, explain how they might have 
helped you overcome the obstacle you encountered so the next 
time they'll be able to lead you over or around it.

 Share as much of your past with your dominant 
as you feel you're able to do. Make it a continuing process 
in your relationship. You might not be able to drag it all 
out at once but in time you can learn to unburden a little 
at a time until there's nothing left to haunt you.

 Learn to accept yourself and acknowledge your 
worth and right to be happy.

 In order to love fully, you have to be capable of 
loving yourself. In order to give happiness, you have to be 
happy. In order to trust someone, you have to trust in yourself. 
In order to believe in tomorrow, you have to face yesterday and 
live for today.

 OK...that's just about it from me....

 Apart from my own experiences, the above 
information was obtained from a number of sites on the net. 
If you are interested in learning more, contact me privately 
and I'll send you my list of resources.

 well done vidette{CL} :)

 Thanks for your time everyone. The floor is now 
open to discussion.

 thank you vidette{CL} ;))

 thank you vidette{CL} :)

 thanks vidette{CL}

 thankyou vidette{CL} :)

 thans vidette{CL}

 does anyone have any questions?

 what happens tho if youre not in a D/s relationship and 
a casual player?

* wee_foot{Y} wonders

 hmmm ok

 hmmmm...i'd be inclined to think you should steer 
away from things that are going to trigger something unpleasant

 that depends totty on whether you know what triggers
you or not

 all becomes part of the initial negotiation

 that's true

 i guess tho there are some things we dont know about, 
its all risk management i guess

 yes...and you'll eventually find out your triggers

 whether you are prepared to take the risk

 sorry for having joined late but . .  .

 if you know a certain act is going to bring up 
unpleasant memories then you should alert the Dom before 
playing

 that's ok cheekybren...the log is available if 
you want it

 that goes without question

 exactly

 if an act does bring unpleasant memories, and it 
was done in good faith, is it possible to stoip yourself being 
too upset ????

 no i dont believe so 

 what about the ghosts of emotional abuse, the triggers can
 be so vague its hard to explain it to anyone else

 i agree dee^

 thats true dee

 there are things in my life that *no one* knows

 but eventually you can pinpoint them

 me too :(

 it can take quite some time to realise what might have 
triggered the reaction ..it is not always immediately apparent

 i believe we all know our limits...there are some 
things that just sit at the bottom and never see the light of day

 you dont have to tell all .. just that it is an 
unpleasant memory

 good point gypsy-rose

 you cannot know your real limits until you have had 
some play ...

 you know yourself what needs to be said...if it's 
something that is affecting you now...you should try and talk 
about it

 i meant emotional limits Sea...is that what 
you're talking about too?

 that too....

 unless you have had some experience ..you do not 
have any idea what your reactions and feelings might be 
physical or emotional

 each time is different

 that can be true SeaMist

 :)

 but i do believe that you reach a point where you 
know wht will set off those memories

 if the memories are buried ..how can you do that ?

 i do too...and you know in yourself what you need 
to share to be fair to yourself and your partner

 they may be buried now SeaMist, but eventually they 
have to come out

 it takes a lot of soul searching

 when you start to deal with them, you know what the 
triggers are :)

 i know some people who cruise thru life not letting 
their past affect them

 yet for others it manifests itself in lots of 
different ways

 i believe everything effects us they might seem to be 
cruising but it displays itself in other areas

 BDSM seems to send us spiralling back into the past ..

 but dont you think that one day it will come back 
to haunt them vidette{CL} 

* totty agrees SeaMist

 i agree totty

 maybe because some aspects of BDSM could be seen 
(by others) as violent

 i do gypsy-rose...but i'm trying to see it from 
other points of view too :)

 that can be a positive thing 

 i think where possible i will try and share but 
akkkkkkk scarey stuff

 of course vidette{CL} :)

 we seem to deal with the same problems until we find 
the answers

 yep we do dee^

 over and over and over!

 i agree dee, but sometimes we dont find answers, 
we just learn to accept that these things happened to us and 
move on

 its called life :)

 you got it totty ;)

 i know myself...the same problems came up in 
every relationship i had

 they always will until you face them

 gypsy-rose, perhaps that is dealing with them, then 
ou can move on

 that's right sara{X^L}

 well said sara{X^L}

 true dee :)

 its just seems such a risk sometimes tho

 what are you at risk of totty?

 exposing ghosts i guess

 is the risk other people not  understanding 
totty ??

 it's amazing how much less threatening they 
are in the light

 but there are some that you don't really want 
to share with lots of ppl

 no gypsy-rose more that why bother, i dealt with 
that or this a long time ago

 of course cheekybren...of course

 this has been a hard exercise for me

 share with anyone let alone lots of ppl :)

* totty hugs vidette{CL}

 thanks hon :)

 that is being evaise totty and only lets the 
problem manifest

 if you are still afraid of wxposing them totty..
then you have not dealt with them

* totty ducks and weaves :))

 lol totty

 hehehe

* totty pulls a mask over her head

 look...she's a pro :)  Know that one well too :)

 totty .. if we deal with the problems they wouldnt 
be a problem

* SeaMist hugs vidette

* totty grins

 thanks SeaMist :)

 what did you learn as you did the work for this vidette ?

 im just being the devils advocate here

 but sometimes the problem can be for other ppl 
dealing with it 

* totty hates being a victim

 i agree with that one cheekybren

 or appearing to be one

* totty nod nods at cheekybren

 well a dominate accepts the whole sub...not just 
the fun play cheekbren

 i hope no one minds...but Rascally is going to 
join us

 its our perceptions of the problems and how 
we perceive other people will deal with them that is the problem

 hello Rascally :)

 sara{X^L} do you think that is the norm..with Doms?

 hi Rascally

 greetings Rascally

 no its not the norm

 hi

 i dont believe *all* dominants are like that sara

 can i throw a statement to you for your thoughts ?

 hi Rascally

 it should be..how else can a sub give themselves 
fully in tust if the Dom doesnt understand them

 Sea...going back to your question...i'm not 
sure *i* learnt anything new from it...most of these things 
i have dealt with myself.  I'm ok with my past now.

 What was difficult about it, was sharing it so 
openly

 no they arent ..but they should try 

 hmm..meanwhile here in the real world.. ;)

 *nods*

 go for it cheekybren

 i've got an issue which i know i haven't really 
dealt with and doubt if i ever will.  as such i'm loathe to 
broach it with ANYONE

* totty hugs cheekybren

 why have you not dealt with it ?

 does it affect your relationships cheekybren ?

 the reason this discussion has interested me, is 
I'm wondering how subs deal with abuse their doms may have 
encountered?

 yes it does and will.

 good question Rascally

* totty listens

 very good question Rascally

 SeaMist, sometimes there are things which you 
don't deal with - you just cope :)

 Rascally...the topic hasn't come up...this has 
been specifically aimed at submissives...but it's a worthwhile 
topic for future discussion

* gypsy-rose hugs cheekybren .. you have to deal with it eventually 
as difficult as it is for you

 understood cheekybren..but some day you will have to 
deal with it ..isn't it better to do so now ?

 its not that easy SeaMist

* vidette{CL} smiles...it is a hard hard thing cheekybren

 especially if it is going to affect a lot of aspects 
of your life

 cheekybren...you may be surprised when you do share your experience...many ppl have probably been through the same issues

 i'm trying every day :) and i do do do hope not dee^ :(

 i know totty...

 maybe need to approach it differently

 for me admitting to myself that i had a problem i 
had to deal with was the first step to actually resolving it

* totty nods

 if you can't get into one way ..then look for 
another way ...

 yes...coming to that awful realisation even...
that this particular thing is what has been affecting you all 
these years

* cheekybren nods

 yes vidette{CL}

 one of the greatest things i learned through sharing 
my experiences was that i was not the only one

 yes...and the thing i've learned tonight...is 
that ppl don't judge you for it...what you gain is a 
compassionate ear

 have seen that so many times dee ..people think 
thier dark side is theirs alone ...and that is not so 

 " a problem shared is a problem solved "  good 
advice

 absolutely vidette{CL}

 maybe not solved cheekybren...but at least halved

 damn sayings, always get them wrong heheh

 halved is a damn good beginning lol

 cheekybren..try to work on the feeling you have from 
your issue ...guilt...fear...etc...and find the source within the 
issue for each feeling

 deal with the biggest first ...

* cheekybren slowly nods

 lovely people...it's been an interesting 
conversation...i hope it wasn't too difficult for anyone.

 you are a strong person, otherwise you would 
have let it bury you ages ago .. you are here talking about 
it .. thats the first step :)

 you will find if you do ...that some of the others 
will dissipate

 Unfortunately, i have to get these little folk 
home to their own beds :)

 thanks vidette{CL} *hugs*

 thanks 

 thankyou again vidette{CL} :)

 and once you have dealt with the separate feelings ..
it is no longer such a major issue

 thanks vidette *huggles*

 Does anyone have any suggestions for next week?

 nite vidette{CL} thanks ;)

 hugs vidette :)

 sexuak aspects ??

 sexual

 respect?

 now sexual would be interesting *smiles*

 respect...good topic

 *grins too*

 hehehe

 respect is an excellent topic too

 now now !! :)

 oh i dont mind sexual too

 do we have any volunteers?

* dee^ grins at totty

* totty licks dee^

 then you have next week and the wek after

* sara{X^L} puts up her hand

 woo hoo sara{X^L}...then you got it :))

 wheeeeeeeeeee sara :)))

 SEX

 mmmmm...where is that Master of mine 

 sex or respect?

 this is on respect?

 oh...lol

 down gurl !

 i was getting excited

 lol

 lol

 geeze...i better make sure i get my new ISP orgainised 
b4 next week..hehe

 respect

 respect it is :))

 greetings sweet kyla :)

* totty needs to learn respect

 hi kyla{F}

 hehehe totty

 respect is good

 you tart totty

 greetings, my sister sara

 save the sex thing for later :)

 hi hi kitten{Ozzie^} :))

* gypsy-rose thanks vidette{CL} for tonights discussion

* SeaMist guess that sara will choose the sexual topic :))

 am not a tart

 ok...thanks for your time everyone *hugs to all*

 yeah...sara is a virgin when it comes to sex

 now theres a topic !!!!!

 bye all

 oh totty...i am ;)

 thank you for sharing yourself vidette{CL} :))

 thanks all

* vidette{CL} waves on her way out...bbl

 bye gypsy-rose :)))

 totty, can I pm you ?

 geez did i miss it?

 sure cheekybren

 bye gypsy-rose

 its ok its logged kitten{Ozzie^} :))

 ohh great thanks totty:))

* totty hugs kitten{Ozzie^}

* kitten{Ozzie^} hugs totty back and smiles

 next weeks topic is respect :)

 ok :))

 i can post it to the list if need be sara :)

* SeaMist lost that bet 

 lol SeaMist

 well thank you all

 same time and place next week

 ok

 isp allowing!

 thanks all

 take care everyone ;))

* cheekybren hugs everyone

 and play safe :)

 is this weeks topic still being discussed?

 is the respect to be irc or real life or both?

 totty...could you tell me how to get on the submission 
mailing list pls

* kyla{F} listens closely

 ummmmmmm

 hehehe nps totty :)

 well real life prolly with a touch of irc

 ????

 yep fine :)

 what did you want to talk bout Rascally :))

 how we deal with dom's abuse?

 no, not dom's abuse...it's all the same no matter 
the persuasion

 sheesh, sorry lost mirc:(

 oh sorry i misunderstood 

 well im off to play and contemplate for a while ;)

 oh dee

 ummmmmm

 lucky girl 

 I was wondering if anyone has had a problem where 
they've seen the horrible things that have happened to others, 
and thought there own abuse was not so bad after all, so even 
though it has effected them, it gets pushed under the rug because 
it's not that bad in relation to everything else

 night totty :)

 ok totty me too :)

* Rascally *huggles* totty

 hang on ill get that info

 thanx totty

 night totty, nice to see you again.

 bye

 subMission@queer.org.au

 with subscripe in the body of the text

 ta totty ;)

 good question Rascally...but what has happened to you 
is just as important ...the severity etc ..is not reallly the issue

 if not speak with ffairlady or me or vidette and we will 
see what we can do

 thanx

 ok i need some funnnnnnnnnn ;))

 thanks again everyone :))

 be well

 woohoo totty

* totty waves :))

 bye totty..hugs

Session Close: Mon Jan 18 21:47:32 1999

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