Session Start: Mon Feb 15 20:18:18 1999
*** Now talking in #Subs_discuss
*** ChanOP (service@austnet.org) has joined #Subs_discuss
*** ChanOP sets mode: +o ChanOP
*** ChanOP changes topic to 'Next discussion Monday, 15 Feb. 9pm 
Topic:  OUR BDSM COMMUNITY - DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO IT?  
Please adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))
 ok...looks like we've got a quite night tonight
 i wanted to do this a little differently this week
 just have an impromtu discussion about our community 
and the responsibility we feel...if any...to it
 i tossed around some ideas...but please feel free to 
take the discussion where you want it
 there were a couple of different angles i thought about
 one was...why do we need to belong to a group like this?
 a subbie group?
 safety ?
 say like ausbdsm and the community that spins off from
 that
 oops
 do the rules apply tonight?
 and yes...a subby group too
 i don't think so totty
 there's not many here and i'd like to hear from everyone
 yes Ma'am :)
* vidette{CL} looks around the room
 well for sara to at first to keep her sanity...to not feel
 like she was a freak because she liked different things..and is 
comforting to find many others like the same things
 if i may vidette{CL}?
 sure ffairlady :)
 over the past few years on line i have found there has 
always been atype of subbie underground
* vidette{CL} nods
 we as a group exchange ideas .. hints... help when needed 
 i have belonged to ausbdsm now for a few years and over 
those years 
* barak{Ras} puts his hand up
* vidette{CL} nods to barak...in a minute darling ;)
 i felt a few times (not always) but soem tiems that 
subbies didnt feel confident in an opne forum to have a say on a 
certain issue
* barak{Ras} nods no problem
 oh i agree ffairlady lol
 barak?
 some felt that the doms may have a go at them or they 
were just not sure as to approach an issue where they would not 
offend a dom
 that is why i set up submission so that subs who felt 
this had a place to vent anything they wished in a safe and like 
minded setting
 or that by putting themselves on the line and saying 
*i have questions* or *i'm new* invites the predators lol
 yes i agree vidette{CL}
 barak?
 i have found that, since i joined the scene, that i 
have received alot of support and help from the other subs...and I
 would have made a few terrible mistakes if not for that advice and
 support
 as i did when frist online ... i have to admit most of 
my experience is on line not rl
 yes...i found the support vital to me
 im here, not afk......me too ffairlady..
 i found i could relate to people who *understood* and 
who had experienced similar things
* ffairlady nods
 same here vidette, and it is good to be able to vent 
and ask things without having to watch what you say...so to speak
 yes...i find it so refreshing to be able to communicate
 with likeminded people
 and just be myself
 i am just so gullible , i know ppl are watching out for 
me  here...
 I consider myselflucky because my first experiences in 
the scene were R/L not online but that is dangerous too
 so do you feel safer being part of this community 
tigereyes?
 i was so new and a real innocent..and i found that it 
was a big comfort to know that i had ppl watching out for me  
huggs totty 
 definatly..yes..I never would have considered meeting
 ppl interested in bdsm through adds in mags or anything
 i find it important that i relate to people i 
identify with also
 and this medium is safe and in R/L the ppl i have met 
have been helpful and trustworthy
 even tho our ideas may be different, belonging to a 
community that is open and supportive of it's own is important to me
* tiger-afk thanks all here, you know who you are who have helped me...
 non judgemental is what i like vidette
 discussion over?
 very true tiger-afk
 we're just talking about why we need to belong to a 
community like this?
 i agree tiger-afk ppl accept you for who you are and that 
for me is what i reallly needed to know
 just jump in when you feel like it kitten....we've left 
the rules for tonight :)
 ok thanks vidette{CL} :)
 made moving to into rl so much easier
 the more i listen and learn in the community , the more i 
accept myself also because others accept me as i am
 I think the biggest thing is we can learn from each other
 this community more than any other group i've ever been 
involved with..accepts people in all their wonderful diversity...that 
is a unique thing in today's society
 well for my, it is the newness, i am new, Master is 
new so it is good to mix and talk via munches and this medium to learn
 things we can try and talk about it with others
 here here vidette...
* vidette{CL} nods to kitten{Ozzie^}...agreed
 the diversity is great imho too
 totty...lil-dragon??
* totty smiles
 wellllllll
 for me i have been very very lucky indeed 
 having being mentored by some lovely Dominants
 its been wonderful and god i think saved my hide so to speak
* vidette{CL} smiles
 that kinda leads me into another point
* warrigal^S^ smiles :)
 for me two elements are essentual the ability to ask 
freely and without fear and to be safe
 yes...definitely
 touche lil-dragon
* totty nods
 totty your statement kinda leads me into another point...
 as a community...and in this case...a community of 
subbies...do we have a responsibility towards newer people who come 
along?
 YES definately
 or do we let them fend for themselves...find out 
their own way?
 yes oooh yes
 noooooo
 Is it better for a sub to be mentored by a Dom or 
other submissives?
 no i dont believe we should, however taking advice is a 
risky thing
 god there is nothing worse then struggling to 
find your own way
 oh my yes ... its important that they are informed 
 a caring friend is best not necessarily dom or Sub
 I listen to other subs ...I trust them implicitly
 especailly on the safty issues... first and formost
 well, mostly...
 i know when subs ask me who they should talk to i am 
*very* *very* particular on who i suggest
 tiger-afk I listen to everyone BUT I then make my 
own decision
 same as me warrigal^S^
 i agree with you totty in that case... of suggesting 
who to talk to that is a desision they must make for themselfs
 and ultimately we all must
 you know...we see new subs coming into the channel 
all the time...some stay...some don't...some could really use some 
guidance but don't know to ask always
 what do we do in cases like that?
 if I justlistened to subs i would have missed out 
on some wonderful experiences
* tiger-afk asks bluntly constantly....i havnt played in R/L 
* warrigal, im just being cautious, but i will make my own decision
*  when the time comes, but i definately seek guidance here...
 I usually try to offer my assistance if I cn
 well i listen to everything and then talk it over
 with my Master
 but, i talk to Doms also...and anyone else wholl 
listen..lol....sorry vidette..
 no need to apologise to me tiger lol
 that is good tiger-afk
 i do too...*smiles*
 apologies are not needed
 :)
 but what i'm saying is...when we see an inexperienced 
sub come into the channel
 thing that kinda upsets or disturbs me, i see so
 many subs come in and rush into privating with the Doms and then 
thats all they seem to do
 i mean first timers
 i've watched the Doms...and not all by any means...
circle her like fresh prey
 some set themselves up for it
 yes true
 geeze, thought you meant me kitten.....
 do we have a responsibility to those subs?
 lol not at all tiger :)
 but they dont know theyre setting themselves up for it
,, ive been caught a couple of times..told you i was gullible.
* totty sits and watches the new subs and smiles
 not really vidette{CL} because they wouldn't 
listen initially
 i believe we do.but how do you message them and tell 
them that what they are doing is thwart with danger
 i like to mention the sub mailing list .. and be there 
to offer any help i can 
 its a time of growth and feeling their way
 god we all make mistakes
 well i would agree with ffairlady...i've started 
suggesting the sub mailing list and letting them know that 
discussions take place here on a monday
 yes totty we do....
 do we then try to monotor new Doms???? and if we see one 
trolling warn the newbie
 well i muck around in the room and all, but i very 
rarely go into private with anybody, least of all the Doms, maybe 
because i have a Master, but that is just me
 if they are serious and truely wish to learn they will 
heed the words of the the more experienced subs...well sara would 
like to think they would..we can offer help and guidence..but 
ultimately it is there choice if they wish to listen
 yes...we do totty...but i watch some setting 
themselves up for a real fall...what do you do...stand by and 
watch it happen?
 but i would also say that i do the same with some Doms 
suggesting ausbdsm as well so its not just subs some Doms are new too 
 very true sara{X^L}
 no vidette{CL} i dont......... but they have to want to listen
 true ffairlady..
* vidette{CL} sighs
 i can give them all the advice in the world
 yes...that's the key isn't it
 i agree with you totty..
 but they have to be open to it
 people dont like to be 'told' anything..
 may i ask a question vidette
 sure kenji{W}t :)
 its not being told, its accepting advice...
 that depends on how its put forward
 how does a new sub differentiate between a newbie sub 
like themselves offering advice and an old boiler like some of us 
with experience
 i dont get defensive warrigal, because im new i accept 
ppl are not being critical to me, they are trying to help and 
guide me..
 i have had newbies offering me advice
 well often they ask kenji{W}t and someone points them 
in the direction of an experienced sub
 lol...well what do you do?
 some ppl are not like that tho
 smile and say why thank you lol
 its hard to tell, i think you just have to talk to
 a few, and find out over a period of time who to talk to, and 
who doesn't have all that much experience
 I accept advice form all ppl BUT I make my decisions 
 would I be right in saying that it is often the female 
subs who seem more at risk 
 yes barak but newbies might be given the wrong advice at 
first then confused about who to listen too
 yes cheekybren, id say so..
 no cheekybren
 i'm not sure cheekybren
 oh...no ? 
 i think generally it is the females but we men tend 
to do more to prove ourselves and put up with more and more quietly
 i guess it depends on the situation...
 it might seem like the females because there are more of 
them..
 good point warrigal^S^, i forgot that
 thats true also sara{X^L}
 i had a sub ask to meet me for a coffee...and i brushed
 her off thinking we had little in common
 that i couldn't sit and talk about my private life to 
this person
 the nature of the issues might be diffrent with men but 
just as complex methinks
 well, i made an absolute pest of myself whenm i was a 
newbie...i asked everyone questions, and if they didn't know..i asked 
them to point me in the direction of someone who would know...BUT...i 
made my own mind up about which advice sounded sensible and which did 
not
 someone suggested that was a little harsh
 that she was new and obviously feelign her way around 
the best she could
 I have ben hurt a few times because Of my own stupidity 
we must learn from the experiences and we need to take responsiblity 
for ourselves too not expect people to do it for us
 no vidette both parties have to be comfortable..maybe you
 should have directed them to someone else to see if they could help
 well, you cant save the world, and your not responsible 
vidette for all new subbies.....you dont have to be friends with 
EVERYONE....
 no..i realise that...but do you see the point i'm 
trying to make...maybe because she's new and she's seeking some 
guidance...i should be there to help
 hang on, i asked to meet you for a coffee...hmm
 lol...tiger...wasn't you darling
 there are always munches you can steer newbies too as well 
 i am a bit like that tiger..i try to help everyone...
mainly cos i received so much help when i was new
 not always ffairlady
 most captial citys have them ... and some regional 
places as well
 for me i am so out of it, and i was only in brisbane 
during the week so seldom
 jsut depends on where you are
 not necessarily vidette...exactly..munches, the 
net..etc..maybe intro to others here on the net...
 it was just fortunate they put a munch on for me 
midweek
 well..we're talking sydney here...we have a munch 
every blue moon lol
 lol..melbourne has munches on an extremely regular 
basis *smile*
 ok sorry, but there must be others in the same 
situation i am in
 irc was a great education for me on the 'realities' 
of D/s relationships 
 and at all sorts of times too
 me too bren
* barak{Ras} nods at warri
 yes i am kitten{Ozzie^} i live in country vic so i 
cant get down to most munches either but i try to as often as i can 
 It has been fro me too cheekybren
 i would have been lost without everyones help....
meeting destiny and BP for a coffee was a crucial point for me
....it made a big impact on my idea of bdsm
 thats what i mean ffairlady once you know and 
have met, spoken and get to really know ppl in this life it is 
easier
 the South Aus network is brilliant..and although i 
live way out of Adelaide the support etc is wonderful between all
 its hard to make that first step into rl 
 yes...my meeting IRish and emerald had the same 
impact on me tigereyes...and thru them other friends
 yes it is kitten{Ozzie^}
 well, meeting ppl is better than going to bound 
and sitting by yourself cos too frightened to say hi to ppl...
i was almost ready to give up at that point
 the subs are very supportive here we have a good network
 in place
 you are lucky there totty :)
 the sydney community seems a little fractured to me
 well look at me barak{Ras}, been on-line for 12 mths 
but it took 10 before i summoned the courage to 'munch'
 oh barak, im so glad you have found happiness...it must
 have been awful in the beginnning
 how can i find out if there is any other life 
stylers up here?? anyone have any ideas?
 yes there is a good subbie network in SA
 lol...kitten...put an ad in the paper?
 sorry kitten...no
 it is the same in Melb...they are close knit the 
subs..even the Doms..
 i find it so interesting but fustrating as i look 
around town ... i wonder hwo many othere subbies are here and if 
only they new there was a real communitly out here in the real world 
they would come out so to speak
 but i was lucky..SirRon and MzRita were the ones for 
me..they were the turning point
 i have thought of that vidette{CL} but how then to 
get around a contact number?
 and how to "word" it
 well...do we see our community growing to the point 
where it's profile is high enough to encourage others to come out?
 but its so scary on your own, i was petrafied when i went
 to meet BP and destiny, wondering if they were a pair of evil sex 
deviates...and thank god they were...
 a p.o box kitten?
 it is always hard kitten{Ozzie^}
 kitten...wanted other kinky perverts in the local 
area...write to p.o. box...
 I have a real problem doing that too
 sorry for joking about it kitten{Ozzie^} lol
 hmm perhaps sara{X^L}, but i am soo scared of being
 found out by ppl i work with
 but in many ways, ppl don't understand where they are at
, and see bdsm as most vanilla do, as being very extreme
 thats just it, youd get every nutcase doing something like
 that..so dangerous
* cheekybren nods vigorously at tiger-afk
 will try it vidette{CL}, think i should run it for 
a few consective days?
 can i ask that question again, in response to 
ffairlady's comment...
  well...do we see our community growing 
to the point where it's profile is high enough to encourage others 
to come out?
 maybe vidette{CL}, but still not unless it is a 
major city :(
 the gothic has helped, yes probably vidette..
 vidette{CL} itis certainly happeing here in Melbourne
 i think so vidette, and the more that we educate the 
"vanilla" world on our practices...the easier it will be as well for
 ppls to come out
 yes warri
 it sounds so exciting down there warrigal^S^
 the gay community has come out, i hope its just a matter of
 time for us
 jesus, not in Lismore....theyd lock me up....!!!!in 
sydney yes
 i think some subbies/Doms may not know there is a big 
community .. they feel they are the "only" ones 
 yes...i look at the gay community and how far they've 
come and i wonder if there's a place for us in mainstream society
 tiger-afk you may be surprised 
 but vidette{CL} it has taken them decades
 oh there are soooooooo many legal aspects to address first 
vidette{CL}
 i know there is a community here warrigal, but the 
vanilla ppl would freak out
 oh yes...it did...and it took a great deal of 
solidarity to get there too
* ffairlady agrees with kitten{Ozzie^} .. and i think it will 
* take a long time for bdsm as well
 and as well, coming out may not be what some ppl 
want  - irc is better in that it offers anon
 well that's it totty isn't it...it seems they are 
trying to outlaw everything we do
* tiger-afk nods in agreement to cheekybren
 yes it does cheekybren, but what happens when the 
urge to move beyond irc starts...
 its a vicious circle tiger..they freak out because 
they are uneducated on bdsm...but trying to educate them you more
 than often attract the tag of "freak"
 you thank god for clubs barak and munches...
 well after at leasta month or two they will know of 
the other avenues
 my sister knows what i am but doesn't want to know 
about it
 well con 99 is trying hard to get to the community, the 
unknown comminity that is
* tiger-afk sister just laughed and said...typical...
 may i ask how many here have told there families? 
 yes...i guess each year is another step in the right 
direction
 there are also heaps of 'outside' issues
 no way ffairlady 
 I hope that we can do that too totty
* ffairlady has told hers
 not my mother...sister yes...
 i have and they burst out laughing thinking it was 
another one of my pranks
 none
 i told a friend of 27 years...and lost her
 no way vidette....
 not a friend then/
 she freaked
 i only talk to my sister in my whole family, 
my mother is dead
 that happen all too often v
* cheekybren nods at tiger-afk
 no...in the end...not a friend
 some thing similar happened to me to vidette{CL} ..
 i even told my boss
 my two close friends are very supportive...even bring 
me a pillow to work on those days i have away with someone
 one of sara's sisters knows..only because she is a Domme
 well, i sent an email to my sister the other day...and
 i sent it under my nick with the collar attatched...and she asked me 
what it was...
 geeze, its only one aspect of life....
* ffairlady smiles at kenji{W}t
 can i ask ffairlady...why did you feel you needed 
to share it with others?
 ooo...barak i've done that to my mother and my 
ex-husband lol
 most of my friends know- but they all took it pretty well- 
surprisingly the more conservative ones were very supportive, the 
ones i thought were more liberal were more shocked- on the whole 
everuyone was pretty accepting- i guess those who knew i was bi  
werent too surprised
 it was important for me to tell them ... explain to 
them so that when things happened if they happend (marks ect) 
they new it was somethign i wanted not abuse
* vidette{CL} nods
 *nods* lol..yeah, and i told her it was a collar,
 she wasn't really paying attention...and today i got an email
 back from her...whats a collar???
 lol barak
 i recently started this thread on another list i 
belong to...i asked how others dealt with telling people
 and i find it important to share with those closest
 to me .. its a honesty thing for me
 i think we all have a need to share as it to give 
submission to another is such an incredible gift and milestone 
in our lives that it is hard not to have someone especially aclose 
friend to  be with
 vidette{CL} I do not tend to tell ppl unless they ask
 i have a desire to tell those closest to me...to be 
honest with them about who i am...but i fear losing them
 its taken my brothers 2 years to talk to me agian ..
but they are cool now
 i get so tired of saying my Master is my boyfriend :(
 a close friend knows what sara is into she thinks 
she is twisted..but she still is my friend..is not judgemental
 it's just a strange existence sometimes...D/s is
 such an enormous part of my life...i feel like i wear two faces
* barak{Ras} would love to tell his family...but does not want to be
*  ostracised by them either
 same here vidette
 i dont tell everyone i meet tho 
 my friends.one who is very straight vanilla surprised me 
when i mentioned it to her half heartedly and she is my greatest 
comfort at times
 well as a fairly normal aussie male, i could never see 
myself telling another male - i have told a fem caousin and she 
has been supportive
 vidette{CL} we all wear many masks
 yes warri...that seems to be how it is
 i struggle with that
 i wouldnt want to hurt my mum, she wouldnt understand, 
though she would be supportive..why upset her
 I do not but maybe I am just strange
 there have been times when something has affected me 
greatly in one way or another with regard to my lifestyle and i've 
had to lie to my family to cover
 :)
 i have tried to approach it obliquly with my freinds...
but the reactions were not promising :((
 and the funniest thing at the dinner table the other 
night...
 i couldnt trell my family- they wouldnt understand
 just be true to yourself - life is too short to live
 it to others conceptions :)
 my daughter was talking about who was the boss of 
who...that i was the boss of her and my mum was the boss of me etc
 there is only one member of my family that knows and 
he is cool
 and it is a hard thing to explain- for me anyways
 here here cheekybren
 she looked at me and said...and is Patrick the boss 
of you mummy?
 if you want to tell them - then do.  if not, ok 
 lol vidette{CL}
 lol vidette{CL}
 my mother nearly choked on her food and said NO 
MAN IS THE BOSS OF YOUR MUMMY
 hehehehe
 hehehe vidette{CL}
 i just said there and thought...whooo...if only 
you knew lol
 thats what my mother would say....
 LOL
 heheheheheheheh vidette{CL}
 thats where outside influences come in such as the 
thread on ausbdsm about feminism
 sisters must cop a bit from other women :(
 yes cheeky thats right
 well...i believe you can still be strong and 
independent and many of the things that feminism stands for...
but you don't need to be in control of everything all of the time
 one the media start casting bdsm in a more true and 
realistic light ..it will become much eaiser for it to be accepted 
in mainsteam society
 thats true sara
 exactly vidette, i get sick to death of being in 
control all the time...i want to be submissive...
 but what to do until then???
 hide out
 thats exactly why i sub tiger-afk  hehehe
 well...as a community...back to the beginning...
do we have a responsibility to help that happen barak...or will 
it just happen by itself?
 my own opinion is that we maybe submissive BUT we 
we are not any less than anyone else
 lol mysty...thats true
 try to promote ourselves that way barak
* barak{Ras} agrees with you sara{X^L}
 while we do not lay on our backs and cop things 
missionary style but experiment with life, emotions and 
feelings the lifestyle will alays be seen as freakish and not 
for the personal growth it offers
 we shouldn't get all breast beating about it - as 
if the media would ever portray ANYTHING correctly
 it will take some very strong individuals to promote 
bdsm to the main stream
 i wonder if the media will cover any of con99..
.does anyone know?
 very trus totty
* tiger-afk nods at cheekybren....
 i agree...it will have to be done by ppl who have 
no fear of losing things
 not sure if it ever will totty, there is a lot in 
bdsm that scares ppl because they can see themselves liking 
parts of it
 we are looking at that atm vidette{CL}
 no idea vidette, 
 it just seems to run parallel to the gay and lesbian 
lifestyle
 I think not vidette{CL} other than maybe the 
underground press maybe
 would a preess release of some form be beneficial?
 well vidette if the media covers Conn there will 
be many with their heads in a bag trying hard to avoid being 
seen by their bosses and family
* mysteyes nods at vidette
 sylk many ppl would not like that
 a shame...even if it was portrayed lightheartedly...
 could do sylk...but you are still dealing with the media 
and how THEY will portray it
 me being one of them kenji{W}t
 unfortunatley lightheartedly does the most damage 
 me also kitten
 its funny how ppl would see us as freaks when we are so 
nomal...and im being serious
 me too kitten
 perhaps a spopkesperson not so much as taping the entire con
 yes tiger we are normal.just more accepting
 listend to ruth ostrow one night laughing about a guys 
fetish about being a vase - she was so cruel.  i wanted to Dom the bitch
 so we continue to flourish underground...i can accept 
that...but i can't accept that somebody somewhere can make a law 
saying what i choose to do is illegal
 i agree tiger...we are also more accepting of things 
outside of the norm
 very true tiger-afk and we are honest enough to 
express our emotions
 there are so many variables
 like our children
 our careers
 so many things to put at risk of coming out
* cheekybren nods at totty
 yes....and i would like to find out ruth ostrows 
kink and make a fool of her also
* vidette{CL} nods
 well with me now it is grandchildren
 true totty :)
 yes...that is true totty
* cheekybren nods at tiger-afk
* mysteyes is a lesbian and coming out about that is jus like 
* coming out about being into bdsm, and laws against bdsm are 
* like laws against same sex sex
 i cant stand ppl who belittle other ppl .
 i *will not* risk my children being ridiculed for my kink
 and remember, this is PART of my life, not all
 well, hasn't NSW just passsed a privacy law that 
means that anything done in the privacy of the home is acceptable
...as long as it does not involve killing or maiming ppl permanently,
 and is consensual
 no...i agree totty...my children are completely 
protected from my own personal choices
 well 2 1/2 years ago i was a quiet withdrawn person...
unsure of herslf, non confident and D/s changed all that and that is 
what people cannot see what the lifestyle can do for personal growth
 i don't know barak...but that sounds fair
 and you should both be commended for that stand :)
 i was of the understanding that the federal government were 
tightening the laws of bdsm and fetish activity
 they are sylk
 i seem top remember reading about it...but it is 
untested tho...so no idea what bent the courts will put on it
 that's what i thought sylk...
* barak{Ras} thinks
* vidette{CL} thinks...now that she's starting law school...
* these are things to investigate thoroughly lol
 depends on the state law
 ohh thats right...Mistress told me about it..i 
remember now
 good idea vidette{CL}
* kenji{W}t makes a moton for the books..deport all Tasmanian and
*  take over the island and call it tasfetish state
 well maybe vanillas migth get worried when scratching 
your lovers back becomes defined as illegal  hehehe
* barak{Ras} seconds that motion kenji
 well...it is a curly one...there are many angles to 
look at
 but we would be here all night :)
 lol..true vidette
 does anyone have anything more to add...or to ask? :)
 i think we all just need to be as supportive of each other
 as we can be
 and be honest and truthful
 i agree...and to nurture our community
* barak{Ras} doesn't...but he also missed a bit cause of family on
*  the phone
 id just like to say, as a newbie, the support is 
paramount...and i for one really appreciate it...
* kitten{Ozzie^} smiles at tiger
 if you see a newbie sailing inot shadowed aters tell
 them to contact someone you feel might help them if you are new 
yourself
 *nods* thats true tiger...the support is paramount
 ok...ill do that
 now...before we all leave...
* barak{Ras} is always directing newbies to vidette{CL}, or 
* totty, or chime, or sara{X^L}, or others *smile*
 sara can remember her mothers family being outraged 
at her mother going to S.A. to have her photo taken standing 
outside the first sex shop in aust...nearly 30 years down the track..it 
is mainstream, sex shops everywhere..we may have hope yet
 i'm going to hand the reigns over to someone else 
for next week...who's going to be brave enough?? :))
 lol sara{X^L}
 oh thanks barak{Ras} lol
 that will depend on tomorrow for me vidette
 no problem vidette{CL} *grin*
Session Close: Mon Feb 15 22:24:00 1999

    Source: geocities.com/timessquare/lair/7704

               ( geocities.com/timessquare/lair)                   ( geocities.com/timessquare)