Session Start: Mon Jan 25 20:26:43 1999
*** Now talking in #Subs_discuss
'Respect ............   Discussion begins at 9pm EST :)   
Please adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))'
 ok..rules and then we should begin
 Questions can be asked at any time during the discussion 
however due to time constraints it would be appreciated if personal
experiences were not discussed, there will be time afterwards to 
do this
 Also the sub play that we all love so much should be 
kept to a minimum or preferably not displayed at all in channel
 If you have a question please indicate so by typing  a ? 
and when you are asked to proceed please do so :)  
 ?
 Hopefully we can limit the discussion to an hour to an 
hour and a half, as we know many of you have Master's or 
Mistress to attend to  *grin*
* totty glares at SilverOz
 oooppppppppppps
 SirRon{MzR} even
 it works SirRon{MzR}
 cheeky bugger
<`barak> lol
 k tots
* SilverOz practices getting glared at
 sara will be taking the discussion tonight
* `barak nods nods at totty
 sorry SilverOz
 :)
* sara{X^L} smiles
 please abide by the ? rule
* totty smiles at sara
* aquaboy reckons we need a Dom to supervise *grin*
<`barak> lol
 :)
 sssshhhh please
* kyla{F} listens
 first sara would like to thank you all for attending 
* jesse{Pan} quiets
 this session is a very important one on respect..
now it emcompasses a very broad spectrum and sara hopes she 
covers points and issues that pertain to each and everyone of 
you.
 first ...respect and why it is important ... let us 
consider a society that does not recognise respect as being 
important ... it soon disintegrates respect is a courtesy that 
everyone, whether Dom/sub or Master/ slave, accords themselves 
and thence extends to others
 wishes to speak of respect for oneself for without 
it, true respect can not be extended to others so, it is 
important that each knows his/her self and what one seeks from 
their experience here on irc and within the bdsm community
 ?
 ?
 yes SilverOz
 I think it might be useful to define "respect" in 
some way.  distinguishing it from  politeness for example.  I 
am polite to all, I respect some. 
* aquaboy retracts my ? SO got it in one
 to treat with esteem
 yes SilverOz..that is true...
 something to be earned though totty, goes both ways
 ecuse me..
 well the dictionary says
 to feel or show esteem for
 to show consideration
 as sara stated in the opening it is a broad 
spectrum...everyone being an individual naturally sees respect 
differently..
 can sara continue?
 hm..  I treat  people with common courtesy, but I 
respect or esteem those who have earned such from me.  So that's 
the spot I'll be coming from.
 continue sara
 subs/slaves should be conscious that they have value, 
value to themselves, to the bdsm community  and value to the Master 
or Mistress that they are with
 a smart mouthed sub/slave on irc or in real life may 
bring you attention, but it is negative attention, very 
unattractive and if you are collared reflects badly upon it, 
n more instances than not all it will gain you is a punishment 
and unsavory gossip. Overall you let yourself down and that of
the person who's collar you wear.
 ?
-> [sara{X^L}] PING
 sara{X^L} is lagging
 what is your question aquaboy
 gosh...still haven't got a ping reply
 me either :(
* vidette{CL} smiles sweetly at the cyber gods...please give us 
a break?
 Well as you know online Yes I am cheeky, but to clarify 
Sara's point a bit more.   For me I am respectful to those I dont 
know, ( as well as those I do) but pick who I can be cheeky and 
flirty with after I get to know them.   I spose as in all life 
there is a Time and Place for everything, 
* belslut agrees with auqaboy
  ?
 i agree aquaboy...i think it's important to know 
where you stand with ppl first
 yes warr :)
 I agree - there is humour and there is agggravation
 warri even :)
 For me respect is something that I feel and that 
is toward matters little if the person is Dom sub or nilla
* totty smiles
 ?
 yes SO
 next respect during "play". It is paramount that 
you respect the Dom/me that you are playing with and they accord 
you the same degree of respect. Without respect there cannot be 
trust and no one should "give" themselves to another that they do 
not trust.
 ooo..she's back! :)
 park of respecting yourself is to feel OK about being 
uman, which includes standing up for yourself and some see that 
as"cheeky". even if it's more-or-less polite.  the other person's 
reaction is not the only yardstick
 i think we all agree that respect is different for us 
all
 then what are we discussin?
<^jeff^> is this working with sara appearing to be in the 
guardsvan?
 i think there's a difference between being cheeky 
and confident and being disrespectful to others
 respect in the bdsm sense i think SilverOz if we ever 
find sara
 ahha
 ah..here we go 
 well how bout we open the floor :)
 if respect is different for all, then  what are we 
discussing is what I mean.  we either wach say our pieces about 
it, or not...
<^jeff^> even lost the connecting cord
* `barak is always respectful of others, Don, sub or other...
and 
may seem cheeky at times...but i am always aware of how far 
i can go with a particular person
 yes...i think while we wait for this problem 
to right itself...let's open the floor
 how do people feel about respect in the bdsm sense, 
many feel they *must* respect dominants cuz they are dominants
<`barak> ?
 ?
* SilverOz grins and promises not to rant about that one...
* totty grins
 yes `barak
 ?
 ?   NO
 lol yes warri?
<`barak> i will accord respect to other Dominants, until they 
give me reason not too...but i am also only submissive to one 
person...not all ppl
 welcome back sara :)
 wb sara and jesse :-)
<`barak> i have had dominants tell me to submit...that doesn't 
engender respect
* ^jeff^ says that no matter who, unless i can accept them in that
personna zone - they cannot be respected
 some PPL I have me tdo not earn my respect 
-> [sara{X^L}] PING
 i agree warri :)
 in the rather binary IRC worls, they all think I'm  
dom 
so it doesn't arise...
 so why should I respect them 
 so how do we respect dominants? is it earnt?
 oooh back
<`barak> wb sara{X^L}`
 but I've seen a few who I think need to learn  calm 
and control and manners for sure.
 ok...are we in action again?
 I respect *people*.  which end of the whip they have 
is irrelevant to me
 exactly SO
-> [sara{X^L}] PING
* aquaboy thinks barak and I come from the same school. Respect 
is earnt not so much by deeds but by a whole lot more. In my life 
I am in a position of power, but I choose sexually to submit, 
tis a wonderful release, so I have to get to know the one I 
submit to, the earning of that respect is a mutual thing, 
not something just demanded. My Work collegues sometimes try 
the Atilla the Hun routine, I dont and my seems to work better 
than theres
 although I can respect somene as a dom, or to be more 
exact, their abilities
<^jeff^> i have a female boss who knows her industry inside out. 
she is vanilla but whenever she says to do anything i nearly go 
down on my knees
 but as I don't interact with people as BDSm roles, 
it's not relaly relevant
 ok lets continue
<`barak> i am in a similar position to aquaboy
 in any scene be it private, public or even on irc..
respect is shown by discussing limits, fears and safe words 
BEFORE the session starts. If a Dom/me says that you dont 
need to, that they would never hurt you..finish it before it 
begins no matter how convincing they seem ..the simple accord 
of respect is not present
 shall we let sara continue?
 sorry bout the size of that post, got on my soap box
<^jeff^> to gain respect subject knowledge has to be most 
important
<^jeff^> yes 
 please sara
 Each and every submissive is different in their mental 
state, the level of pain they can handle etc..too many have become 
victims by allowing the Dom/me free reign without setting limits 
first..
 above all else, if in doubt dont play..full stop! 
Take the time to allow yourself and the Dominate to get to know 
each other..in that way it will soon come to the surface 
the degree of respect they have for you and you for them.
 ack.  Dominant is the noun, dominate is the verb....
* `barak nods nods
* SirRon{MzR} nods nods
 :)
 well please excuse this girls bad grammer...
she normally does type it correctly :)
 *grin*
 got to go :(, thanks for the interesting 
discussion :) oxox
 when out in public with Your Dom/me Master/Mistress 
if they do or say something that you don't agree, please don't 
argue with your Master or Mistress in front of others, wait 
until you are home or behind closed doors to battle out the issue. 
 ?
<`barak> ?
<^jeff^> oops
 yes SilverOz?
 i cna;t agree with that. that's a relationship 
boundary thing, that's for each pair to decide.  Peter 
values my information and  input, and if I think he's wrong or 
my opinino differs he *expects* me to say so.
 I don;t  say "you are a twit" to him, he's not one.  
But I do say if I think he's wrong or I differ. 
 ?
 others may do it another way.  But it's  not a hard 
and fast rule at all
 each "couple" works differently this is just a 
broad outline..of course that is to be discussed within the 
relationship ...
 then I think it's important you don't state it as a 
requirement, which is the  impression I got from your speech.,
 `barak what is your question
* warrigal^S^ nods at SO
<`barak> i agree with sara...but i see that sort of thing as 
a normal couple type thing...united we stand and all that
<``girl``> i agree
 thankYou for pointing that out SilverOz...it was 
asked to be included so sara did
* gypsy-rose agrees with sarah and barak
 for me its different
 when i am in scene i *dont* argue
 i agree...it's a personal thing in my relationship
we always afford each other the utmost respect in public
 however
 SO: please allow sara to continue ..unless the 
question directly relates to some query you may have ..
please keep personal comments and experiences until sara 
has finished
 OK, I understood this to be a discussion...
* `barak steps down off his soap box...1 sorry all
 It be littles yourself in front of company and shows 
a lack of self disipline and also brings down the mood of those 
around you. Be supportive and respectful of each others opinions 
as much as possible if you disagree then try to keep that at home.
 honesty is extremely important to a relationship, 
lying to Your Master Master/Mistress will cause alot of anguish 
for both of you when the truth finally surfaces, it may even 
bring a finality to the union. Being dishonest is an 
unexcausable breach of trust and respect, remember if you lie to 
your Dom/me in reality you are lying to yourself.
 ?
 yes warri ?
 sara you see your master about to make a mistake that 
would embaress him would you correct him
 as a gorean slave that is not sara's issue..
* totty would warrigal :)
* `barak has to go now...i am sorry guys :((
 Masters and Mistresses are like others ...they need to 
learn by their own mistakes 
 bye dude:)
 sara would be punished for doing so warri..
* jess{Pan} looks dizzy
 that is the Gorean way i know but we are not all 
gorean
 if BP were going to make a mistake that would embarass 
him...I'd bring it to his attention, quietly, discreetly and 
respectfully...
 Gorean?
 have tried very hard not to let Gorean ways creep in 
here warri
 did jess miss something here?
 agreed destinyBP
* totty smiles at destinyBP
 I've done it that way destiny, and I've said "are you 
sure about that?" too.  I figure part of my job is to look after 
him if he needs it.
* kyla{F} smiles at sara
 Master wouldn't HAVE to take my  suggestion...
*shrugs* but at least I would have tried..
 that is how i would deal with it too destinyBP :)
* destinyBP nodnodnods at Silver..yup...that's kinda the way 
 see it..
 respect on irc and ways of conducting yourself 
within a channel.
 although the only times I usually need to do it is 
when he's made a typo at the system console, but the theory's 
there...
 look after your Master ? oh dear, i don't think i 
would sya that
 mau jesse speak please?
 may even?
 lol
 yes jess{Pan}
<``girl``> shhhhhhhhhhhhhh let sara{X^L} get on with it
 In the majority of bdsm channels you should address 
a Dom with the title of Sir after His nick, with a Domme the 
title Ma'am is used. ALWAYS the first letter of their nicks 
is a captial. This denotes that they are a Dominate, 
example...hello Douglas, Sir / hello Anna, Ma'am.
 this one thinks that one may only think Master makes a 
mistake and should not judge for Him, she should trust His 
judgement and look to His wisdom
 is this wrong?
 well said jess{Pan} :)
 To err is Human jess, not to realise that an error 
is made is a big mistake.   A very polite quite nudge is often 
appreiciated
* belslut smiles... no jesse :-)
 thank you 
* kyla{F} smiles
* jess{Pan} quiets
 in bdsm D/s channels that don't require you to use 
the title of Sir or Ma'am, if you still wish to, then do so..it 
is simple courtesy and costs you nothing more than a couple of 
keystrokes. Don't think that small amount of undue respect will go 
unoticed because it will be, Dominates are very observant, it may 
even afford you the attentions of a worthy Dom/me.
 I presume at the end of this we get to say our pieces?
 ?
* vidette{CL} sits on SO...yes
 :)
 yes You do SilverOz
 ok
 yes mysteyes?
 ooo..you're quite comfy SO :)
 hmm, don't worry, i'll save it til end, go on sara:)
 as sara said before a bratty smartmouthed 
submissive doesn't do themselves any favors by being so. It 
is not clever, you can still have fun, offer witty inteligent 
conversation it is much more appreciated than slighting other 
people to draw attention to yourself.
* kyla{F} smiles happily as her Master enters.
 If you wish to speak to someone in private message,
 please afford them a degree of respect by asking the person 
in question on channel if you may do so. It isn't very likely 
that the person will refuse the request.
* ``girl`` looks
 Scuse me Sir, but we are having a subspeak 
right now.  
 I was unaware...
* Forbin` smiles and departs
 thank You Sir
 its ok im pming the dominants as they come in
 oh ok totty
 To msg without seeking permission first may 
attract the 
lable of being a troller. Trolling is not looked upon lightly and 
won't be tolerated by many. It may even get you kicked or banned 
from the channel.
* kyla{F} smiles sadly at a group who does not allow this 
one's Master to join her.
 oh...so am i totty :)
 This one waves to her friends and leaves to join 
her Master.
 bye kyla{F}:)
 bye kyla{F}
 in the medium of irc what you type is basically the 
overall picture you present of yourself, most Dom/mes enjoy 
watching the beauty of a submissive that is graceful in their 
movements and well mannered. Try to conduct yourself with poise, 
it will take you alot further than being brash and uncouth.
 ?
 yes SirRon?
 are we still talking about respect?
 this is more respect that a sub should hold for 
themselves in channel on irc SirRon
 ?
 yes warri?
* kate^^ tip toes in waving hello
 Is it not better for a sub/servant/slave online 
to use the prefered nick of the person they are addressing 
rather than adding something that has not been asked for ?
 let sara do the last paragraph then you can rip 
her to pieces.:)
* totty hugs sara{X^L}
<^jeff^> goodnite all, time has caught up
 yes sara stated that eariler warri
 ok
 that to use there nick the first letter in capital..
and that most channels require a Sir or Ma'am included
* SilverOz says nothing.....
* jesse{Pan} is quiet
* SirRon{MzR} waits ....................out of respect
 You don't have to  be a doormat you can show some 
fire and spirit and still be pleasing to those you serve. It 
maybe not necessarily be the way of the channel you are in, 
but common courtesy and respect are what people note and more 
often than not leaves a lasting favourable impression.
 the floor is all yours...
 discussion open
 thank you sara ....you have done very well....your 
effort is very much appreciated .... :)
 thank you sara :)
 Thank you sara
 thanks sara *hugs*
 :)
  honesty is extremely important to a 
relationship, lying to Your Master Master/Mistress will cause 
alot of anguish for both of you when the truth finally surfaces, 
it may even bring a finality to the union. Being dishonest is an 
unexcausable breach of trust and respect, remember if you lie to 
your Dom/me in reality you are lying to yourself.
  ?
<``girl``> thank you sara{X^L}
 thankyou sara{X^L} :)))
 i would like to comment on this to all the 
subbies that whish to listen
* jesse{Pan} lowers her eyes
* ``girl`` listening
* gypsy-rose listens
*** totty changes topic to 'Respect ............ submissives 
and swiches ONLY  Discussion begins at 9pm EST :)   Please 
adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))'
 I made the mistake of lying to my Mistress
* totty looks at ^SirB and points to the channel topic :))
 ``girl`` listening
<^SirB> nods
 sorry - wrong mouse thing
* ``girl`` chuckles
* vidette{CL} chuckles at ^SirB
* SeaMist wonders what happened to the little silver one :)
* jesse{Pan} looks confused much
 the thing im trying to say is this caused no end of 
anguish and hurt 
 to both parties 
 and when you lie to your partner 
<``girl``> yes it dies SilverOz
<``girl``> ooooops
 did it change the level of respect for both of 
you Ron ?
<``girl``> i mean SirRon{MzR}
 wb destinyBP :)
 partner?
 you hurt yourself more that you could even 
imagine 
* jesse{Pan} settles quietly
* mysteyes was just gonna say that b4 she started coming to 
ausbdsm she would go to D/s-101 where tis expected u address 
Dom/mes with a Sir/Ma'am...while it is a formality i find it is 
comforting as u know all u need to do to recieve respect is 
address tops with a SIr/Ma'am....on the other hand, when i 
came to ausbdsm where it is not so formal (and although that 
makes it a wee bit scary) it's kinda cool cos u r more able to be 
urself....i don't 
 true mysteyes
 yes SeaMist
 it's a little unsettling at first for those that 
are used to a more formal setting
<^SirB> enjoy people
 was it recoverable to any degree Ron ?
* vidette{CL} smiles at ^SirB
 and unless those hurts are repaired 
 I can't comprehend the concept of "respect" beig 
due to a capital letter...  if I'm close enoug to someone to 
see themn as dom, then my respect/care will be obvious without 
titles
* destinyBP ponders...I just have a REAL problem calling 
everyone 
Sir or Ma'am merely because they may fancy themselves a DOm/me...
I refuse to pander to some horny, pimply faced kids fantasy that 
bdsm is just a way to get a kinky online wank...I just refuse 
to be a party to that..
 lol, true
 good point destinyBP
 ok so for the newbies how do you act real time at a 
club or something?
* destinyBP has been raised by both her parents (in vanilla life) 
and by her Master in BDSM, to believe that respect is not an 
automatic..it is EARNED...whether you are Dom/me or sub...
respect isn't your god-given right..it is something you earn 
through your words and actions.. :)
 this isn't the army... and even in the army you know 
an officer has had *some* training
 this one must go and she thanks you
 so if i call a Dom/me, Sir/Ma'am , because i enjoy 
it, i won't be jumped on by others?
<``girl``> excuse me if i am wrong here, but even in most Gorean 
channels it is considered very rude to call any Dominent Sir or 
Ma'am....
 no lil_minx :)
 you dont
 I think you have to ask the person you are going to 
call that
 it is Master or Mistress..
 because is it really "respect" if they don't like 
the title?  or is it you using them to get your jollies?
* destinyBP wouldn't jumop on ya lil^minx...in many ways...it 
boils down to personal preference :))
 sara i got in trouble once online for calling a 
Domme Mistress which I meant as a term of respect
<``girl``> thats correct, and this also tears at the fibre of 
bdsm because a sub has one Master or Mistress (usually) that 
she will call Master or Mistress
* lil_minx smiles...
 I get called "Sir" an awful lot.  it does annoy me 
that people think they are respecting me when they don't even 
bother to find out simple info about me first...
 yes sara does also...all the time
 She did not see it that way
 she tries very hard when in bdsm channels not to do 
so but slips from time to time
* destinyBP pulls out her switch hat and states, when she 
Dommes, she DETESTS it when subbies call her Mistress...the 
only person who has that right is [darrius], my collared sub...
* totty just follows the channel rules
<``girl``> i agree destinyBP
* warrigal^S^ asks first now
 if it is required to call Sir or Ma'am i do
 however if not i dont
* destinyBP nods to warri....
 SilverOz   I remember when I first met you, I had to 
ask, some subs are scared to asked just in case they get it wrong.
If ever I am confused I say Ma'am/Sir?????
 I get Thorfy to call me M'Lady because I don't like 
Mistess.  but that's  him and me.... 
<``girl``> i will call a Master or Dom Sir if i am having a very 
serious discussion, otherwise i use their name only
 better then Master/Mistress, cause as already pointed 
out those names are reserved for most
 i used to call all Dom/mes Sir and Ma'am until i 
actually got out and met most of these ppl face to face...it 
seems a little strange calling your friends Sir or Ma'am
 lol, i can imagine
 aquaboy: *nod*  I rpefer to be called SO or Silver 
or Zebee. I dislike peopel who I am not in a BDSM relationship 
with seeing me in BDSM terms.  They haven't *earned* the right 
to see me as a dom or as a sub.
 that SeaMist is something i dont know the only 
thing i can think of doing at the moment is trying to amend whats 
already been done and try to make amends on a personal level
 brb
 hi kenji{W}t :)
 this is something recent Ron ?
 my apologies for tardiness
 True SO, but for me you are a differnt one altogether, 
being switch rather than clearly one way or the other.  
(I have no problem with that just not much experience 
in that regard)
 hiya cheekybren
* SilverOz notes that just cos you have a lower case letter 
doesn't give you the right to see me as somene you can treat 
as a dom and get your sub kicks. - a concept often not thought on.
 no SeaMist
 ausbdsm was the first channel that sara went to 
that the titles Sir/Ma'am were not expected to be used
 yes...same here sara{X^L}
 showing respect in cyber is one thing...i mean, 
u address with politeness and so forth, but what in r'l do 
u do to show respect....
 aqua: seems to me that it applies to anyone.  
Why should anyone have to be seen as a BDSM roel first instead 
of a person first?
 it was hard to get used to
 i mean what do u do to show respect?
 myst: depends on the venue.  I'd say if it was 
important to you, then do it in body language.  eyes down 
and speak little.
 mysteyes...i follow my Master's orders...if 
he says call 'em Sir, i call 'em Sir
 when in play sara uses the title Master or Sir..
depending on whom she is playing with..
* destinyBP ponders...much of my "Sir/Ma'am" thing depends 
on if I am in "normal" mode, or if Master has me on full formal 
manners, in which case EVERYONE but BP and other subs, are 
addressed as Sir or Ma'am....
 but I think in a public venue it's even more important 
to be sure that you are giving respect where it is both due and 
wanted
* mysteyes doesn't understand how eyes down and speaking little 
is all that respectful though
* cheekybren nods at mysteyes
 mysteyes..they are signs that a dominant will 
recognise
 myst: how  is using a thing like "Sir" about 
"respect"?  both are about saying "I'm sub and I know you 
are dom"
 i guess its the differnce in lifestyles and 
how differnt lifestyles show respect
 wb totty :)
 SO true, but I spose it does give ppl new to whats 
going on an idea.   Most of what we have discussed tonight is 
what we would expect to see in Vanilla life ( or hope anyway)  
common courtesy, no yobbo types yelling out thir sexual desires.
And Jumping up on my soapbox for all to hear
* aquaboy I get the shits with all those bloody yobbos, ruining 
the reputation of decent men and women for their selfish acts
 if you met up with say Fred Hollows or some other 
person who has done a lot for humanity and you respected them, 
then how woul dyou show that?  is respect in a BDSM venue the 
same or different?
 i can see ir point SO but in my life i am often 
lowering my eyes and speaking little..., but it's out of fear, 
not respect
 aqua: pretty much.  the rest is more about 
etiquette than good manners, and that differs place to 
place.  simple good manners is usually enough till you know the 
little tricks of a palce
 i would say mysteyes...that is an issue you need 
to deal with aside from bdsm then
 myst: interesting... in that stereotypical submissive
behaviour is also stereotypical fear behaviour... there's a 
can of worms for another time :)
* mysteyes nods
 Same SO, you may not like his religous views, but 
he has done great things, hence you repsect him, like in BDSM 
your kink may not be mine, may even revolt me (speaking 
genericaly here) but none of business to say anything bad 
about it
* destinyBP smiles at Silver....cans of worms...taht we'll 
have to go fishing with some other time ;)
 maybe something you could present to the group Zebee? :)
 dunno vidette.  I get fairly analytical about this 
sort of thing and also rather umm... non-mainstream.  I dunno 
if people would like my radical ideas :)  
* vidette{CL} smiles...i can't imagine that lol
 when we talk of respect do we mean like, love,
 affection...etc
 consideration...?
 for your own Dom/Master mysteyes?
 I don't mean those myst.  I mean I esteem them, 
think they have more than common worth and ability
 love and affection is different.. I ca love soeone 
I respect of course :)
 well,  what i mean is....if i respect someone then i 
generally have other feelings for them...like love and so forth
 *nod* different strokes.. I respect several people who 
I don't like very much :)
 i generally have respect for everyone until they stuff it 
up :))
<`girl`> dammit
 wb girl
* destinyBP ponders...must be a personal preference thing..cause 
I respect CrimsonLord..but I don't love him....
<`girl`> thanks :)
<`girl`> respect is for ppl who you believe in
 there are levels of respect tho isnt there?
<`girl`> whom you trust
 I do tend to find liking engenders respect.  in that I 
liking often comes cos I think someone is a class act
 no, u don't understand what i mean....i guess i'm just 
differrent, i couldn't say i respect any one i don't like
 well thank goodness for that destinyBP :)
* destinyBP winks at vidette...yeah..I figured you'd like that ;)
* vidette{CL} laughs
* destinyBP grins and nods to Silver..preciesly
* destinyBP sighs as her spelling starts to flag already
 I know people whose abilities I respect, but who I don't 
like.  Names would mean nothing to you, so I can't illustrate it 
well
 well if you want to respect way out to its limits, 
Many of our Leaders are respected by ppl that have never met 
them, just seen there deeds, so yes there are always different 
levels or perhaps more to the point types 
 do they ever regain that respect you had for them
* totty nods
 totty
 Umm.. I have never liked Malcolm Fraser, but I respect 
him.
 yes SirRon{MzR}
 and how do they do that
 what do u respect about him SO?
 how do they stuff it up?
 they lie usually
 in any way 
 or show me no respect for my opinions
 or are you saying what they stuff up is what they 
fix
 his integrity, his abilities in the Commonwealth 
comissions, his wisdom.  he's grown a lot since he lost office, 
and he's an impressive human being now.  
 Exactly SO, but there are things he did that were not 
popular but someone had to do the nasty for the good of all, so 
it all boils down to be decent human beings and careing for 
others.   Personalities will then dictate whom is liked and not 
( and usually for the strangest reasons)
 u think that of him...? so why don't u like him SO??
 no im saying i loose respect if people arent straight 
with me
* destinyBP wants to go back to warri's question about the Dom 
getting ready to do something that would embarass him....(or that 
you THINK would embarass him)...
 I don;t like his politics, I don't like a number of 
the things he's done, I don't like the way he comes across on 
certain issues.
 IC
 but wth people I know more than casually, I do find 
like and respect usually linked.  cos I respect attitudes I like
 i missed that destinyBP 
* mysteyes nods
 thats why life is so good, we all come from differnt 
places, and most have something good to do.   (not talking about 
the thugs murderers etc, but they are there as well
 ....
 well..warri asked what do you do when your Dom/me 
is about to make a mistake that is potentially embarassing 
(or something you THINK is a mistake)...and I want to know 
more of how y'all think about that?
 SirRon{MzR} i dont respect a dominant because he/she 
is a dominant i respect them for who and what they are
 warri asked sara if she would correct her Master 
if He was going to publicily embarress Himself ..she said as 
a gorean slave it wasnt her position to do so
 ok thats cool
* totty would say something quietly for sure
* cheekybren nods at totty
* destinyBP nods to sara..yeah *grins* I understood your answer
I was just fishing for some other ideas..
 okay totty..HOW would you go about it?
 destinyBP...i certainly would say something...but 
i would try not to bring it to anyone else's attention
 I think  it can depend on what the thing is... and 
how you can prevent it
 CL would expect me to say something
 ask if i could speak to Him for a sec
 quietly
 and voice my opinion
 and it would be His choice
 a tap on the arm is different to "are you sure about 
that?" and different from pulling him from in front of a bus
 whether to listen or not
 and regardless i might be wrong myself
 I mean I've done the "sniviling" "Master, you 
are so intelligent and wonderful I'm sure you realize that l
ighting the hair on your chest to show fireplay is not a good 
idea"  (NOT an actuall case...just a far out example)
* warrigal^S^ chuckles
 hehehe
 heehhe
* totty cracks up
* destinyBP aggreed with whoever earlier said that as a sub ..
it is our job to take care of our Dom/mes...becaue I very much 
DO see it like...we are there to take care of them....just as 
they care for us...
 so where does a subbie stand in speaking their mind 
with their Master/Mistress....are u expected to just shutup and 
obey them?
 I take care of Peter in various ways.  it's a kink 
really - service sub
 no mysteyes you are expected to be honest with them
 depends on the relationship myst.  in mine, I give 
information which includes how I feel
 if you have a problem you mist talk to them about it
 hge gets to decide what to do with thgat information
 must even
 I thought someone was earlier dismissing that idea 
that we take care of them...like we are mere subs and can barely 
care for ourselves, much LESS our Dominant..
 i think in a relationship...you learn to 
communicate in subtle ways anyway...a look between CL and i 
can mean a lot that others aren't aware of
* totty lurrrrrrrrrrves to take care of her Master
 and if it's a serious relationship problem, we 
are not dom and sub but two people who want to make sure the 
other is OK and happy and don't want to lose each other
* totty nod nods at vidette{CL}
 destinyBP some may disagree but maybe it takes more 
to sub than to Dom?
* mysteyes nods nods at SO
 i see it like this - i would only sub for someone 
who I respect and know they respect me - then everything else 
is easy :)
 -relatively that is 
* destinyBP nods to aqua..but I think what I'm trying to say 
is HOW can someone think that subs should NOT consider what 
they do as "taking care" of their Masters...or maybe I just 
totally misread what was said..it was a one line, kinda offhand 
remark..and I think that person has left, so I can't ask them..
 it seems like a ego trip to say that u can not 
correct ur Master/Mistress in public....is this becos of how 
it makes others feel, or becos it may embarrass the top?
 I think that depends on what the sub and the dom are 
doing aqua
 again i  guess its the differnce in lifestyles and 
how differnt lifestyles show respect
 hmmm mysteyes...i wouldn't say an ego trip...it 
boils down to respect
 what would you do warri?
 it comes back to the notion of submission as a 
gift - how the top behaves shows how they see the gift
 ask to have a quiet word
 but respect Her right to say no and leave it 
at that
* SilverOz ponders...  I dunno I need to actively think about 
showing respect for Peter.  anyone who knows us knows how I 
feel.  So mostly it will show because it is there, anything 
else is almost playacting
* kenji{W}t nods in agreeance at cheekybren's statement
 but vidette..does it mean you respect your 
Master/Mistress less if you politely and quietly offer an 
alternative solution to what they are about to do, that you 
THINK will embarass them?
* totty smiles at warrigal^S^
 even tho destiny is not here...i'll answer her 
question...no it does not mean i respect Him any less
 oh ther eyou are :)
 its true, i bring something to Her but the respect 
comes in when i dont persist adn let Her decide
 I joke with him and tease him and such, so I suppose 
somoene who doesn't know either of us might get an odd impression,
 but if they hang around long enough they'll get the right 
one
 ok, to all the DOM/mes here, if ur sub was to try 
and correct u in public, would it bother you, and if so, would 
it be becos you would take it as lack of respect, or becos u 
would be embarrassed, or what...?
 her I are vidette *winks* and yeah warri..youa re 
right...I may say to Bp "I think this could be a bad idea"..but I 
respect Him enough to sit back having said that and let Him do 
what He will....(and NOT even THINk about saying "I told you so" 
if He ignores my advice and does it anyway :))
 I trust Thorfy enough to know that if he said "you 
ahve it wrong" then I'd have it wrong.  he's got plenty of 
brains and knowledge and often he is better at some things than 
me.  So how could I be embarassed?
* warrigal^S^ nods
* mysteyes nods, ok
<`girl`> there are no Doms here mysteyes, but switches...
although a little different pretty close
 I think any Dom/me that gets upset about their sub 
attempting to correct them (if done in a quiet, discreet manner 
and not SCREAMING it out in the middle of a club)..I think any 
Dom.me that gets pissed, is doing so out of insecurity in what 
they are doing..
 mysteyes i think it comes down to the way you deal 
with a situation like that...discreetly is best
 I might say "are you sure" but usually I can quickly 
see he's right.  If I don;t think he is, I'll check why he thinks 
it's so
 most dominants will ask you why
 its just their nature
 and i guess it works both ways....a Dom/me would 
not correct their sub in public in a loud, abrupt manner, etc?
 I respect Thorfy's brains and abilities.  hell, 
one of the fun things about him :)
 I wouldn't be with one who did myst....
 ummmmmmmmm some do mysteyes
<`girl`> yes some very much do
 but is that fair? would the subbies here stand 
for that?
 there is no generic dom :)
 yes some do mysteyes and some like it
 in my relationship it is something we agreed on 
very early on...we always support each other in public even if 
one of us is wrong
 depends on the relationship
* cheekybren nods at wise totty
* mysteyes nods, ok
 If I was about to walk in front of a bus, I'd expect 
him to pull me back.  other times if he  thinks it has to be 
done he does it subtly
 sometimes its part of some peoples public play 
to do that, humiliation scenes too
<`girl`> stand for it?? one has to if that is the type of 
relationship they have
 if it was something that would hurt CL or embarrass 
him, i would say something discreetly
* destinyBP chuckles..Bp regularly corrects me in public..I 
just count myself lucky that He does so with a look, or a 
discreet grip on my arm.. :) Although He sometimes threatens 
to have me kneel in busy stores or sidewalks to remind me of 
my place ;)
 but that kind of relationship should be negotiated 
I think girl.  it's part of the "do we fit" thing...
* warrigal^S^ grins tro destinyBP i know that feeling
* vidette{CL} chuckles...CL has a method of gagging me 
(mind you i've never given him an opportunity to use it in public)
* destinyBP winks and nods....
<`girl`> yes true SO but these are all usually worked out prior
 i just don't like the idea of having to respect 
my Mistress in one way, but not recieve that same respect back..
* destinyBP rotfl at vidette as her imagination goes wild...
 exactly girl.  it's a negotiatin thing.  
 exactly destinyBP ;)
 myst: bingo :)
 but i guess as u say, it depends on the individuals
 i think chances are then mysteyes, that you 
wuldn't be in a rel with that person 
 very true mysteyes
* mysteyes nods, i guess not *G*
 in relationships where negotiation of that kind 
takes place though everyones Differnt
 well all..I've got to get offline..I got in trouble 
last night cause I didn't come to bed when I said I would 
*sighs* kept me and BP both up till 3am, mad and grumpy and not 
speaking..NOT a fun way to spend the night..
 urgh...
 nini destinyBP :))
<`girl`> night destinyBP, hugs and kisses
 be well destinyBP
 bye destiny:)
 nite destiny :)
 :)
 before you go destinyBP...
* kenji{W}t believes in any true relationship trust, respect, 
caring, honesty and openness has to be a two way street between 
Dom and sub or the relationship is not a good one and should be 
left alone
 what vidette *smiles*?
* vidette{CL} smiles...i pm'd you
* mysteyes nods to kenji
 yes kenji :))
 hmm, so i guess things like public respect should be 
sorted b4 problems even arise..
 lots of talking and understanding each other
 I think so myst.  part of the discussions about how 
the relaitonship should go.  getting an idea that you both fit 
well 
 that u r both after the same thing..*nods*
 *nodding at kenji{W}t* and thats where abuse can 
enter D/s when the trust is abused by Domme or sub
 this is why it's so important to know someone and be 
friends before doing  the BDSM thing...
 it's damn easy to fall in love with the fantasy in 
your mind.  
 kenji{W}t the only other thing I would add is 
Communication too
 oh very good point SilverOz
* mysteyes grins and nods
 well warrigal^S^ i put openess and communication 
and honesty together
 ok folks...as usual we could be here all night 
discussing stuff...so we're going to wrap it up :)
 i think i kinda did that..fall in love with the fantasy
 OK.... bedtime for Ozes I think
 easy to do mysteyes 
 next week...
 that's the trouble with cyber
 myst: dead easy to do, I did it and it was *so* 
simple to do.  so easy....
 cheers SO
 okies, thanx heaps sara and co..*hugs*
 destiny is going to talk about 24/7 lifestyle 
relationships :)
 OK.. night all
 <----learnt something tonight
 same time, same place :))
 thanks SilverOz for injecting a lot of constructive 
imput
* vidette{CL} smiles at mysteyes...that is great
 thanks for tonight sara....a great discussion :))
* totty hugs sara
* sara{X^L} smiles
 and i look forward to destiny talking next week :)
 thank you *kiss*
 whats the topic for next week?
 may i say vidette{CL}, totty and sara{X^L} once 
again very good all of you
 24/7 lifestyle relationships
 ooo, i'll be there*G*
 thanks kenji{W}t...but sara did the hard work 
this week :)
 thanks kenji
 excellent work
* vidette{CL} thanks everyone for coming and hands out lolly 
bags and balloons as they leave
* cheekybren applauds
 yey!
 woooohooooo
 ooo can i have a red one 
 that topic should be interesting 
* totty shakes her head
* warrigal^S^ smiles, thankyou sara and totty and vidette{CL}
Session Close: Mon Jan 25 22:59:03 1999

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