Session Start: Mon Jan 11 20:06:08 1999 * Logging #subs_discuss to '#subs_discuss.log' Members of the D/s S/m BDSM lifestyle are very aware of thee hazards inherent in what they do and take great care to follow practices which avoid the potentially serious hazards involved. D/s, BDSM communities make an ABSOLUTE distinction between explicit consensual acts between legally adult partners for their mutual PLEASURE and ALL acts of non-consensual violence and ABUSE does everyone understand what im saying here? <``girl``> nods * wee_foot{Y} nods * vidette{CL} nods * belara nods * tayesha^C nods * gypsy-rose nods * cheekybren nods * tigereyes nods * shelea joins the noddin <``girl``> :) its the land of nod * totty smiles Within any group of people no matter how noble the aspirations of the pack, are the ignorant, the abuser and the occasional psychopath Within the group of BDSM lifestylers is a very small group that win in our kinder moment's call the *hard players*. It is here that abuse can often take place. Skillful dominants are good at identifying emotional triggers. It is very easy and even tempting to use these buttons destructively. Guilt buttons are to imply a sub is selfish for considering her needs is an attempt to imply guilt to avoid dealing with real issues. <``girl``> woah back up Now within all this yes ``girl`` <``girl``> ? <``girl``> guilt buttons are what? they can be social or parental triggers <``girl``> ok thanks that make us feel emotional unstable example needed? <``girl``> nope i got ya or ok ``girl``? * totty smiles ok within all this <``girl``> yup are so many facets to keep us safe perhaps we should talk of SSC and this is just mho ok :)) Everything done in BDSM is safe sane and consensual. A lot is said within those 3 words. Safe is fairly clear. Sane means we don't do things to screw up with each others heads and we wont do things to each other that will land one of us in a psychiatric ward, ICU or the grave. Consent however needs some discussion. <``girl``> ok
this is where limits come into play and negotiation ? yes tayesha^C oops tigereyes silly question, but can i get a copy later of all this, or keep madly writing you can get a log :) <`amber> I am logging it tigereyes thank you tigereyes...i'll send you the log hon Things that are beyond your limits are things that you would absolutely, under NO circumstance, never, ever even consider doing. Explaining your feelings completely is important, what one person views as a "light" scene may have his lover pressing assault charges. BE CLEAR AND THOROUGH. Subs must relate the existence of phobias to their Dominants. During the opening up process of negotiation, minor fears and uncertainties must be revealed for the safety, sanity and happiness of both partners. There are physical issues to discuss too , the Dominant would rather know about your weak back. Establish safe words and signals WELL before the scene begins. A word to slow things down are common. Choose your words carefully, whichever word you use be sure it's clear unmistakable and thoroughly discussed. now perhaps is a good time to disuss safe words Choose them very carefully words like NO STOP DONT just dont cut it and HELP is not a good one either there is the universal mercy does anyone have suggestions for good safe words? <``girl``> red red <`amber> I use my childs name as would never call it out in sex normally red and yeloow for slow down a minute i was thinking...i might be getting off track a bit words aren't always suitable red and yellow orange to slow down and red to stop red and many use yellow or amber as a slow word ? i don't use safewords...i have a toy yes we will get to that vidette{CL} yes SirRon{MzR} i like the colours too as the qualify the safe words and guide the domme ok...sowwy :) what if your bound and gagged yep just getting to that SirRon{MzR} hand signals a sqeauky toy is good for that, but you shouldn't be bound and gagged for a first time play ok tic tacs, squeaky toys how about the ping pong ball in the hand trick yep lots of things BUT a rubber ball ALWAYS negotiate that before the scene many of us cant speak when in subspace so does anyone not understand safe words/signals? i'm ok with that totty :) i presume everyone does :) * tigereyes understands :) actually totty I do have a question about signals - is that okay? sure tayesha^C if bound - as in japanese bondage, and gagged and blindfolded - something I want to do soon - how would I signal the Dom - can someone advise me please ooooooo i need help, SirRon{MzR}? i think it's vitally important for the Dom to be very aware ok by the time you get to that stage, there should be an awareness between you both just scrolling back you should still be able to hold something in your hand anything that can be held in the hand and either dropped noticably or a squeeky toy works if you know the Dom and you have had discussions beforehand as you should have may i offer a sugestion totty? yes wee_foot{Y} tayesha^C are your hands going to be free? even in japanese bondage i can still use my fingers you body or eye movement should be enough f the squeaky toy is tied to a finger rather than the wrist then it is easier to grasp in the plam if your blindfolded your Dom should be able to ready your body language thank you everyone for your imput does that help tayesha^C? yes totty and very much appreciated thank you even the flare of your nostrils...may sound silly but...think about it :) * totty smiles * rose^n^tick agree with gypsy-rose that might be to subtle vidette that's why it's important for the Dom to be very aware Subs do not like to use their safe words then the movement of your body is something that the Dom is going to have to check continuosly It may feel to them as though they are critiicizing their dominant that they are being whimpy or some of us like to 'push' our boundaries :) a suggestion totty? can i finish please can we keep discussion til the end please? or that they just dont want to stop the scene A safeword is just like a seatbelt it isnt there because you dont trust the driver its there because things happen accidentally that are nobodys fault Accidents DO happen ALWAYS use safe words and signals totty your Dom should be able to trust you on what you say and viseversa so to keep accidents down any questions? <``girl``> sheesh yes of course SirRon{MzR} but accidents still do happen regardless accidents eg? a fall? unexpected pain a burn limits pushed ok I understand, thanks slip of a knife numbness in limbs cramps limits pushed ---> emotional break down any questions? not from me hon. no i'm fine at this point totty...thanks :) im ok ok well because we are talking first play not so much for those of us in D/s relationships i did kinda jot something down and i would like feed back after i have pasted it all okies kid go for it :) Casual play or at the beginning of a D/s relationship, this could be an agreement to play casually , the BDSM equivalent of a one night stand :) The players are agreeing in a spirit of mutual respect to perform limited physical activities or role play together to the satisfaction of their own needs. Neither person is expect to perform any activity that does not give him or her pleasure or that does not enhance fantasy. Trust level: that one person will NOT injure the other Dominant: The prerogatives limited to the Dominant are limited to those expressly given by the submissive. The Dominant should not expect or encourage deep submissive feelings and should not attempt any pushing of limits. The Dominant remains responsible for safety. sorry bout the typos :( Submissive: is responsible for clear communication of limits. The sub should endeavor not to allow herself to sink into a depth of submission feeling that makes them overly dependent on her partner's judgement. This is more an encounter than a relationship, but how many D/s relationships begin, and its success is measured soley in terms of immediate gratification *such fun* !! There are many more levels to this however we are talking first play :) ok finished any feedback? ? yes belara we are talking about overall saftey here... this includes letting someone know where you are and having a safe call right ? yes we will get to that :)) ? next issue :) good :-) yes tigereyes Ill ask at the end its ok so how are your feelings about this as a descriptive of first play? does it make sense? <``girl``> yup does to me :) makes perfect sense to me hon. yes :) yup goodie :)) k safe calls *winking* at belara :-) In Adelaide we have a thing happening amongst the submissives. A safe call is established at the beginning of a session and at the end. A clear time is established for the finish of play with bells and sirens ringing if our submissive sister/brother doesn't safe call within this time. During first play sessions its not uncommon for the submissive to call half way through the session also. We have found this to be a very very good tool, and use this is always in the form of a phone call <`amber> ? If a Dominat is not keen on this idea, I suggest you think carefully of playing with them. Many of them encourage this themselves. ? yes wee_foot{Y} may i suggest that if they are not akin to this idea, that the sub SHOULDN'T play with them ummm totty...amber has a question too yes that is my rule :) yes `amber hi..sorry I'm late... <`amber> is there a range... say within half an hour of a time yep go ahead `amber usually for us yes ? or 15 minutes yes tigereyes would you go around to the house or whatever? a sub should never play with anyone uless they have known them for a long long time and i can only say this as so many subs have been sucked in over the years to accept abuse as part of a D/s relationship and bdsm yes i would to check on the person * wee_foot{Y} agreees with SirRon thanks * tayesha^C agrees with SirRon the only alteration there is if you have not known them yourself but others around you have and vouch for your safety as they know that person REALLY well yes its a problem for sure SirRon{MzR} * totty nod nods to tayesha^C that is another issue even at first meetings a sub should have someone in range or close by agreed SirRon{MzR} thank You SirRon{MzR} good point can i just add something? even with others its difficult tayesha^C, i almost got involved with someone whowas very well known in the community, but harrassed me for a long time i have had a close sub friend with me at first play sessions thats another option too yes vidette{CL} in the states they have a set up called Safety Net and from what i can gather, it's like a hotline that you can call <`barak> hello all if you don't respond, they go straight to the address supplied vidette{CL} in some cases we do that here i know they are trying to establish something like that in brisbane they should do it in sydney too...something to think seriuosly about and we do it here to a limited amount in adelaide yes which of course means that someone should have the address where you will be yup belara in that most ppl ring around first to see if someone can vouch for a particular person YES belara agreed SirRon{MzR} and a phone number ALWAYS ALWAYS do your research <`amber> ? yes `amber i think that the safe cal shouldhave address and personal details of the Dom/me, phone number address and workplace. It better to be thorough <`amber> do you guys takes your own mobiles along ? i would amber always amber <``girl``> i do amber, it goes with me everywhere] * `amber nods thanks good idea * totty smiles the other thing i NEVER do until trust is established is bondage <``girl``> ? yes ``girl`` <``girl``> what is it is open play like at libertine, and a Dom you do not know want to have some bondage with a sub? good question public play is different ALWAYS tell the DM you are new or going to be doing a scene with a new partner * vidette{CL} puts her hand up :) DM = Dungeon Master go for it vidette{CL} may i say something ?? can i just say....as a submissive new to the scene, you do not have to obey every Dom in the world * totty nods furiously ? yes gypsy-rose submissive doesnt mean you have to be submissive to every person you meet .. you still have choices yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay :))) yes deeva has anyone found, after explaining evreything carefully to a Dom, they don't seem to have heard what you've said? yes deeva I have had that then they arent a true Dom deeva its either me..or them...communication probs.. and I am sure many here have anyone? i haven't experienced that...but alarm bells would be a ringin/ <`barak> i have ? unfortunately gypsy-rose they see themselves as true Doms and some walk amongst us maybe you havnt met the right one? you obey the Dom you are with not all Doms you are a person first and you decide to give your submission to someone they dont nor do they have the right to take your submimission i would be inclined towards not allowing the play to contue in that case deeva exactly SirRon{MzR} I believe they are gypsy-rose..but seem to get over excited... ? cheekybren? no i agree with tayesha^C oops yes cheekybren I stopped it immediately belara.. a true Dom will listen to your feelins and concerns deeva even if you have previously played with someone does not give them the right to demand your submission again good point belara taking up gypsy-rose pint, aboiut a true domme, i'd say instead that they just aren;t suited to you. one subs dream is anothers nightmare :) agreed belara agreed bren good thought cheekybren... sorry ``girl`` did we answer your question before? they seemed to beleive I liked what there previous sub liked.. i agree partly with that bren .. except that i believe a true dominant will listen that is also true cheekybren but the issue was not that - it was about a Dom not listening to you once you had your talk - they seem to be deaf <``girl``> no totty ok and we must remember we're talking about first play here can we wait a sec please yeah, i missed the point a bit tayesha^C :) ? ``girl`` is still wondering how we go about her question :) <``girl``> what is it is open play like at libertine, and a Dom you do not know want to have some bondage with a sub? a deaf Dom is an idiot a true Dom will have the confidence and humility to listen yup exactly in a public place perhaps you can have a friend close by to keep an eye on things <`barak> ? if you are comfortable ``girl`` then you are quite safe in a public place no always gypsy-rose does anyone have any sugesstions? i do <``girl``> and can a sub, say yes to open bandage but a definate no to sex? <``girl``> ooops bondage yes definitely ``girl`` hell yes i think it's vitally important that the DM knows you a first time player and what you're limits are yes girl all in pre scene negotiations <``girl``> ok thanks yes most certainly ``girl`` hang on a minute checklists are good in that respect yes SirRon{MzR}? ? are we talking about bdsm or a root at the end of a session again thats negotiation isnt it? ? ill get to the ?'s in a sec sowwwy ;( ok `barak your question `barak ??? poke poke <`barak> is it alright to say no, even though it may be something you have negotiated on? <`amber> move on totty yes always i believe so you can safeword at anytime barak yep safewords :)) * `barak nods gypsy-rose? just cause you thought you might like it doesnt mean you definitely will we are discussion first play right??? is that first place ever .. or first play with a particular Dom?? both prolly gypsy-rose a sub is not subject to anything they do wish to be they tend to forget that sometimes ok just wanted to make sure i was on the right track here :) tigereyes ? may i ask 2 please yup <``girl``> geez greedy..lol at libertine, does a sub have to obey rules? rules? answer to doms you are a woman first tigereyes no ok, 2. respect would be nice and courtesy ? but firstly you are a person who should be respected for who you are yes wee_foot{Y} dont be overly dependant on doms judgement in first play, a bit catch 22 isnt it for a sub? are we discussing now? no not yet in a sec wee_foot{Y} ok sorry, thought we were in discussion now... ok discuss away :) * totty needs to give her fingers a rest may i mention something about abuse issues? oh yes trust your judgement tigereyes Abuse issues are very important. As uncomfortable as it is, it is vital to discuss past sexual abuse and physical abuse with your Dom/me. In intricate detail. This should be done to repeat any incidences that have happened in the past, relating them to BDSM play. If a sub does not feel comfortable telling their Dom/me about their experiences, then they shouldn't play with them, end of story. There has to be that of level of understanding an ok... Its not worth it to go into a scene and be traumatised by it unnecessarliy. Dom/mes are not mind readers, and they can be doing their utmost to make sure you are safe, but if they don't know that you have been abused and they do something which relates to that (ie gagging, pulling hair, holding hands down etc) then only the sub is responsible. * totty applauds wee_foot{Y} good point wee_foot{Y} * wee_foot{Y} bows may i say something here bloody hell well said wee_foot{Y} excellent wee foot * `barak claps wee_foot{Y} do you mean childhood abuse too, or bdsm abuse? * tayesha^C applauds wee_foot{Y} any abuse excellent words wee foot{Y} both tigereyes any abuse any kind of abuse therefor the need for prolonged discussion more childhood abuse, rape or physical, they all come into it, even BFDSM abuse yes SirRon{MzR} exactly <``girl``> ? its open discussion now ``girl`` go for it :)) why tell ....if you have dealt with it <``girl``> ohh ok the same holds true for phobias... i have a claustrophobia one and i tell all that... because i am liking to want out of bondage yesterday if it hits me i recently had an experience with a Dom where he slapped my face .. this bought back memories from years ago and left me quivering in the corner most of our wants and needs come from childhood tigereyes` because its not always dealt with even if you think it is <``girl``> what if the child abuse is something that one does not talk about and finds it very difficult to open up about with anybody? i have another point about safety hmmm i make it clear anything that gives me a feeling of suffocation i cant handle CL is always stressing to me to learn the ropes you have to girl you have to find some way to get it out, because the damage can be so severe if a sub has any phyical conditions...weak joints, bad back etc..these points have to be discussed also lol vedette <``girl``> easier said then done wee_foot{Y} you have to ``girl`` .. or you end up crying in the corner :) if something happens to him...i need to be able to get myself out of the ropes not funny tiger...i'm serious oh sorry, thought you were joking.sorry about that oops what happens if you are an inexperienced player and something happens to your dom true ``girl``...it will surface regardless...best to be prepared.. you need to understand how the knots work you dont have to relate childhood experiences in detail but you do have to have the trust in your Dom for open discussion i feel stupid sorry.. :( no don't lol <`barak> i have an absolute phobia where needles are concerned, and i make that point firmly and frequently in discussions * totty hugs tigereyes s'ok :)) :) needles *shudder* and im a nurse!, still cant stand them ok hang on a sec i've been there girl, took six hours in Yeti's arms to get out the first words but it happened I have to leave lovely pplz - sorry - I really dont want to go - I shall grab the log later or can it please be sent to tayesha@yahoo.com - thank you for allowing me to be here - this should be a regular - monthly discussion - again - thank you and take care lovely ppl - kisses and warm hugs sometimes play will bring back forgotten memories... you always need to be aware that it is a possibility and i hope Dom/mes are aware that it can happen and how to deal with it... hang on hang on agreed totty lol yup belara yes belara good point ok there are a few issues being discussed we need to discuss one thing at a time and not personal experince if we can help it girls point have to go...sorry to leave, hugs :-) regarding abuse and its easier said than done may i comment on that totty? perhaps we can address that in next weeks session? yes please <``girl``> good idea totty as it is pertinent or we might be here all night sounds good yes ineed it is anyone offering to research? * vidette{CL} puts up her hand :) yaaaaaaaaaaaaay <``girl``> no i can't i;m sorry, it's too deep ok * sara{X^L} smiles vidette{CL} is it next week that may be a good idea for a topic of its own totty, as it appears a few of us have been affected in some way or another and it is very likely to come up in a bdsm situation yes i agree 100% brb front door ok...i would be happy to get any feedback from you privately on abuse issues taht you feel you'd like to look at in more depth so many abused ppl.... prehaps we could think about topics for the ext few weeks and have volunteers to research ok so everyone is happy for abuse and how to handle it is next weeks topic? :) yes please yes belara my private email is suzi@hinet.net.au yay <`barak> *nods* yep totty :) yes * shelea would like to could you post them to submission mailing list? the suggestions? <``girl``> what is the submission mailing list? ohhhhhh not on it girl? <``girl``> no don't even know about it nor me i personally would feel better about this being contained within the submission list ok...how to subscribe...ummmmm i agree vidette ok my email is cuffs@wantree.com.au lol and to get on the list talk to ffairlady :))