Session Start: Mon Feb 22 20:48:01 1999
*** Now talking in #Subs_discuss
*** Topic is 'Next discussion Monday, 22 Feb. 9pm AEST...Topic:
SELF ESTEEM Presented by barak{Ras} Please adhere to channel
rules and enjoy :))'
*** Set by vidette{CL} on Mon Feb 22 18:42:57
ok lovely people...sit back, relax and enjoy
thanks all :)
as you know our lovely leader this evening is barak
and he's going to lead us on a discussion about Self Esteem
* vidette{CL} smiles
Questions can be asked at any time during the
discussion however due to time constraints it would be appreciated
if personal experiences were not discussed, there will be time
fterwards to do this
Also the sub play that we all love so much should be
kept to a minimum or preferably not displayed at all in channel once
the discussion starts
If you have a question please indicate so by typing
a ? and when you are asked to proceed please do so :)
Hopefully we can limit the discussion to an hour to
an hour and a half, as we know many of you have Master's or Mistress
to attend to *grin*
it's all yours barak *warm smiles*
break a leg barak
thank you vidette
ta sara
Okay... tonight I am going to be talking about Self
Esteem, self worth, self image or what ever you would like to call
it. I will be approaching this topic tonight looking for lots of
input from you guys.
So I will be talking, and then I will open the floor ]
to discussion and then I will proceed onto the next part and so
forth
okay, i will be keeping it pretty informal tonight...
si if you have a question or want to make a comment...no need to
wait for me to finish
ok everyone...settle in and let barak begin *smiles*
thanks vidette
. I think this topic is something we have all had to
face at one stage or another.
Now, self Esteem is of vital importance to what we do,
and how we interact and react within what we do as submissives
. A low self image will leave the submissive open to
certain consequences that a more normal or healthy self image will not
these consequences can be a range of things stemming
from a range of factors
okay...i would like to pose this question to you...
What do you consider to be the value of self image/
self worth in our particular lifestyle?
* vidette{CL} ponders for a minute :)
* barak{Ras} opens the floor for comments and such
<^totty> ooooooooo well if we have low self image we are open to abuse
you must have a high opinion or be lost
<^totty> but that doesnt just relate to this lifestyle thats life :)
*nods* that's true totty...
i think it's vitally important because it takes a certain
strength to be submissive...and with low self-esteem/self-image...that
strength is lacking and leaves us vulnerable to all kinds of stuff
i think it is of vital importance as we are not in a
culture which general society sees as being of normal esteem, subs are
usually seen as ppl who have no self esteem, who are brainwashed and so
forth. this is not the case in many cases of know of
but there is more of a potential for a low self image to be
taken advantage of in this lifestyle
well, I think submissives are in a position to have their self-
image under attack all the time, and if they don't have a high self-
image to start with, it can hurt. I should know, I have just left the
scene because of this
knowing ones self and being important to ones self closes
the door on the ability to be abused 99% of the time
to be vunrable in emotions leaves you open to predators
and there are so many predators out there
*nods* that there are vidette
sooo, that leads me to the next thing i would like to talk
about...
what ARE the consequences of a low self image...
manipulation
exploitation
abuse, emotional breakdown,
dispair, conflict
self abuse
confusion in a lifestyle like this...especially if you
are new to the scene
<^totty> tears sadness turmoil
*nods* thats it...i had the same things listed when i sat
down and thought on this earlier today
<`amber{ToL}> attracting stuff that keep hurting you and furter loweing
esteem
the inability to function as a whole person
*nods* yes
yes...i agree with amber...you tend to get caught in a rut
or a cycle when you have low self esteem
<`amber{ToL}> abusme written on your forehead
or you just dont get involved with anyone at all
and it can be a very hatrd cycle to get out of once started
yes like the wife basher syndrome you just keep going back
for more
oh yes...once the confidence plummets it's hard to raise
yourself above it again
* tigereyes nods to vidette
that is so true vidette..
<---been there done that :)
I sm bottom and dont dare actually submit last time I did I had
an emotional breakdown
it is seen a lot in channels when subs continually through
themselves at Doms because they are looking for acceptance to break the
cycle
do you think they're looking to break the cycle tho kenji?
* barak{Ras} agrees kenji
or is that the only way they can get attention?
well i hope so rather than inviting abuse
instead of getting attention for being confident and
strong and beautiful and sure of themselves?
yes that is what should happen vidette
* vidette{CL} nods and ponders
and that drive for acceptance draws you further and further
down, because you start losing your identity, doing things because you
hope they are going to get you accepted, rather than following your own
feelings
yes bruno...i can understand that
* tigereyes huggs bruno...
very true bruno and then the cycle is vicious
i agree...so, how does a strong self image/self worth help
you to avoid these pitfalls then...
you are confident to say no
* michi{Y} is new to this channel..but feels he might make an
* observation,,that people tend to seek abusers ..women especially seem
* to always find another abusive partner..whether vanilla or not
<^totty> well you have to have inner strength and be honest with
yourself
i think you have confidence to know what is right and what
is wrong for *you* and the ability to voice y our opinions
* michi{Y} sees it as a kind of habit or pattern
you become desperate for someone who scorned you when in deep
submission to provide you with the sense of self worth that was taken
it is a fact that even though you may be quiet and
unassuming strengths are recognised
<`amber{ToL}> you value who you are and will not take what you would
when self esteem was low
is there a danger that you can start strong but give too much
Ive done it once, never again for me.
if you believe you are of value to the community...that
aura will shine through and project to others
but that's the risk you take cind
i agree sara
thats one of the risks in this lifestyle cind
value to the community and yourself sara, we must like
ourselves
i think you need to be sure of yourself and your self
worth *before* you enter into a bdsm relationship tho
self esteem has rarely been a problem for me ;) but I see so
many people who somehow believe it is their lot in life to be
treated with less respect than is due any human being
people do not need to be hit over the head to recognise
strengths and truths
the relationship won't give you that sense of self...that
you need to find first
<^totty> well you have to see yourself of value before you mean anything
to any community
yes
* barak{Ras} nods
okay..well then, let me ask you this...
unto your own self be true
wellsaid kenji
* ^totty smiles at kenji{W}t
what about Doms who have low self-esteem and try to break down
the self esteem of subs as a means to make themselves feel more worthy?
how though, easier said than done
* jx nods
good question bruno
bruno walk away from them
i think that still comes back to the submissive
good question bruno...was just going to posse that myself
you need to have the ability to recognise that and the
strength to walk away from it
warning bells should ring loudly in the subs ears...
* cind shudders
i'm sure there are many out there like that
* sara{X^L} agrees with vidette
can be hard for a newbie to recognise those warning bells
tho sara
is it not worth mentioning that the D side of a D/s
relationship is possible ONLY because the /s side permits/welcomes it?
the minute you lose the feeling of being totally cared for
and worthwhile then walk away and look back and see what it is you have
abuse is abuse....
i mean it's not something that is just applicable to the
D/s lifestyle...my ex vanilla husband was an expert at that
no person in this channel can be mistreated or made to feel
less than they are..unless they place themself in a position where they
are vulnerable..
oh..and i guess that leads to..we DO make ourselves
vulnerable..
so let me ask you this then guys...what can be done to
prevent this from happening...how do you raise your own image, if low??
i'lljust shut up and sit here quietly :)
but not everyone makes themselves vulnerable michi{Y}
how do you see yourself as worthwhile in your own eyes??
i believe as individuals we need to look closely at
ourselves, look at what we are what we have done what we can do
you know barak...i don't think that's something that just
happens overnight...it takes a lot of soul searching, self-realisation
and little acts of kindness to yourself
i disagree vidette...it is a choice we make...to take
whatever comes..if it harms our psyche/esteem whatever..is negative to
our well-being and we need to have the guts to act and get away from it
i think we all (or me anyway) go through stages of self
worth and uslessness
and noone should say they have not done anything
worthwhile...
barak, I think one key thing is to take responsibility for our
own self-esteem, and be careful of who we entrust it to
of course michi...but not everyone makes themselves
vulnerable
i can rtelate to that kitten
*nods* that is true bruno
can i give a personal experience?
* vidette{CL} waits for the groans
lol
sure vidette{CL}
* `amber{ToL} has to go sorry hugs barak
*nods* sure vidette *smiles warmly*
but then, vidette,,if a person begins to attack our own
gfeelings of self-worth, we need to feel good enough about ourselves to
say..no,,i deserve more than this
the more we trust someone, the deeper the emotions and the
feelings, and the higher the potential to be hurt
sara used to write each day the things she liked about
herself and the things she didnt..each morning when she was lets say in
a situation where her self esteem was at an all time low..she would look
in the mirror and it was very hard to look herself in the eye and make
herself say that she liked the person she saw...gradually she started to
believe the words but took months
no bruno..sorry we do not entrust our self esteem to
anyone.it is ours and ours alone to ensure it reamains strong
i came out of a marriage of 7 years that was a gradual
breaking down of my self-esteem
he chipped away until there was nothing left
i felt ugly
stupid
only if we are self abusers can it be destroyed
in capable of anything
and i let him do it
* michi{Y} nods at sara..sounds like a worthwhile exercise
and he did it because he felt so worthless himself
it made him feel big and important and strong to see me so
weak
it paid off for sara michi
kenji, you have to open up in order to receive. And whenever you
open up there is potential for something to be taken away
* azure{DR} nods to vidette
but somewhere along the line, i realised that i couldn't
live my life like that
and i took a course...and i realised that i wasn't stupid
at all
and i started dating again
and realised that i wasn't ugly at all
yes but that is were your own inner strengths have to be
maintained bruno..self pride
thru a mass of little actions...being kind to myself
mainly
i regained my self-esteem
* michi{Y} sends warm strength to sara and vidette
by the way nice collar michi{Y} :)
* barak{Ras} hugggs vidette
hehehe
we become vulnerable, unless it is pure sm as i do, it seems to
be just the way life is
what did it for me.. getting my self esteem back.. initially
was to stop being what the world thought i should be
i think it's something that perpetuates itseld
itself even
when you're on the down...you keep going down
vidette{CL} may i ask if you thought you were beautiful
before all this?
when you're on the rise again...the sky's the limit
no...i felt horrible and ugly kitten{Ozzie^} lol
well...i still do some mornings
that's what i was trying to say earlier vidette..that some
peoplehave a strange knack for finding the same kind of partner time and
again
no i mean before you were married when you were younger
*nods* yes, they do michi
yes michi i did in 2 husbands..boy yes i did
* ^totty groans
how many women (sexist i know) end up with another abusive
partner after getting out of a bad relationship?
kenji, I agree. I am not saying you hand over your self esteem
to someone. But if you open yourself up to emotional attachment, then it
is in some way a "weakness" that the person you opened to can exploit. I
am not saying that it is a bad thing, just that any love, any emotional
attachment, carries risks
exactly kenji...could you see it before it happened?
before i met him kitten{Ozzie^}...i was really
outgoing...not afraid of anything...full of self-confidence
ok vidette{CL} thanks
sorry not prying vidette{CL} really interested is all
that's ok...why are you interested?
that's a good point bruno
because i don't and never have thought i was beautiful,
and bad relationships dragged me down more
and this lifestyle leaves you open to that sort of thing
alot more bruno, as the attatchment tends to be alot stronger on an
emotioanl level than other relationships
and mental level too barak{Ras}
* vidette{CL} smiles at kitten and hugs her
i truly think it stems from the abuse as a child
*nods* and psychologically as well wee_foot{Y} *thanks*
the point is tho kitten...i don't need to be a supermodel
on the outside...i feel ok with myself on the inside and that is
reflected in my life each day
yes bruno i understand your point....but in the long run we
ourselves as an individual have to handle and work on and accept our own
self worth
i learnt the hard way
yes i understand vidette{CL} now kitten shuts up again
* vidette{CL} smiles
* kenji{W}t hugs you all as we have had all had to face this monster at
* some point
it has been a huge struggle for me to gain the sort of self
image that allows me to wake up in the morning and look at myself and
like myself
vidette... were you involved in D/s when you were down on
yourself?
no...vanilla marriage
barak, I agree very much. I see BDSM as a symbolic activity
almost, something which illustrates and idealises a lot of emotional
cravings, something which can sublimate our emotions into something very
strong
did you find that involvement in D/s helped you gain it
back?
kenji, I'm certainly facing it right now
but i do know azure{DR}...that CL would never have looked
at me twice if i had a low self-esteem or lacked an inner strength and
confidence
not the way i meant :)
see for me.... i was trying to be the "modern" woman and
hating it
* vidette{CL} nods
when i found D/s... it freed me to be what i truly am
* kenji{W}t holds bruno and hugs him...be well dear one you will find
* your way
yes...i understand that *smiles*...i understand that
clearly
umm i am sorry for interrupting but is barak{Ras}
finished?
thank you kenji :)
well, i have been letting the discussion continue kitten,
cos everyone is covering what i wanted to cover anyway
but i would like to say...
i think you can do little things to help gain some self-
esteem
take care of your appearance
the way you hold yourself
what can be done to help you raise yopur self esteem
the way you walk...head held high
* ^totty smiles
the way you are treated by your Dom/meplays a big part
yes wee foot it does..... god Master glares at me when i say
im not pretty and stuff like that
* vidette{CL} nods
*nods* yes, i agree wee_foot, the zdom/me can offer a lot
of positive reinforcement in that regard...but it does nothing if you
haven't got the image there already
each week even if its a little thing like going out and
sitting in a cafe and having a coffee..but spend time for your self..try
to put an hour aside each day..
Master has said it's the one thing he won't tolerate...me
putting myself down
very good advice sara
no sara that didnt work for me.. i hd to get around people
Mistress has said the same thing to me vidette
i spent too much time mentally running myself down
it helped sara
if we do not have time for ourselves who do we have time for
well i know that Master gets all shitty when i'm down on
myself, he makes me say things like "I'm beautiful",and "i' special"
over and over again. He also makes me feel that way, by the way he
treasures me
needed to find something i felt good about ... and not dwell
on past failures or what i perceived as failures
that is a sign of a good Master wee_foot{Y}
*nods* that is a good way to counter it wee_foot{Y}
* vidette{CL} smiles at wee_foot{Y}
he says its his job :)
yes it is wee_foot{Y}
anyone else got anything to add at this point????
when sara said putting time aside for yourself..didnt mean
to be alone ..but to do something for yourself each day
i must admit...there are times when CL wakes up next to me
and says look at this beautiful woman...and i get up and look in the
mirror...and my hair is all over the place, my mascara is smudged, i've
got a zit on my chin and wonder if he needs his glasses changed lol
that is what a good Master will always ensure
ok sara :))
lol that is just being female vidette :))
hehehe vidette
lol
lol vidette{CL}
lol vidette{CL} i know that feeling
OKAY...so we have covered how the submissive and self
esteem...but what about the Dom/me..
how do we cope...as submissives...with a Dom/me that has a
low self worth???
hmmmmmm can one truly be a Dom and have low self esteem?
oops sorry barak...
hmmm...that's a tricky question barak
azure, I am amazed at the number of Doms who have low self-
esteem
* azure{DR} hushes and fetches more coffee
they are human, they also have moments of low self
esteem
well, i am told that all dom/mes have big ego's...or maybe
that is just Mistress lol
i personally wouldn't tolerate a Dom with low self-esteem
but that's just me
a good sub will support her Master when he is feeling low in
that he also will do the same for her..a Dom with no self esteem will
use a sub and abuse her badly to drag them to their level of despair
well put kenji{W}t
lol barak{Ras}, watchit she could be here in subbie nick
lol
yes kenji
well,i recently married my Mistress...she had been married
previously to an abusive alcoholic..her self esteem was al shot to hell
a sub can help build that if the Dom/me is worthwhile and
wants support in the rebirth of themselves
and i feel some smallpride that it in part our blossoming D/s
that has lifted her up again
* wee_foot{Y} smiles
<^totty> i believe its our responsibility to support our Masters in the
same way myself
* sara{X^L} smiles to michi
* michi{Y} smiles back at sara
yes Dom/mes give a lot if they are true to themselves and
their sub and a sub can return that threefold
* barak{Ras} thinks that he would do the same for Mistress as She has
* done for him
right on totty...above all, D/s is a 2 way street, a
partnership
totty if you didn't have a Master tho...would you be
attracted to a Dom with obvious low self-esteem...someone who doubted
themselves?
yes yes yes
i wouldn't
<^totty> no vidette{CL} i wouldnt
neither would sara
i agree michi and too many subs are demanding and forget
they also have a responsibility in the partnership
i just couldn't do it
oh..this leads on to: can a sub mentor and support a Dom/me?
i wouldn't either...but how would you tell??
but if something happened to CL to diminish his self-
worth...i would support him 1000%
i think yes..we do have a very large part in our top's self
esteem
yes michi{Y}...we sure can
agree michi{Y} :)
* michi{Y} blushes and bows
i have been there...and love it, to build up the person
whomeans most to me in the world
i have known subs to drag their Dom'mes down..from
continually depleting their ego
michi{Y}...that's something that would be so individual
It is possible to have high self worth and sociability have it
stripped in close relationships, as vidette experienced, I feel that
submitting makes the vulnerability greater.
oh no vidette, support for your lover and partner is
universal