as posted to the [B5-Players] mailing list

Ok, there's been a lot of talk about the cheese decks, and I thought I'd just put in my 2 cents about how to counter them.   let's go one by one

Human-
        Babylon 5 deck
Based on Alliance of races & getting b5 influence up fast to 20. counter strategies-forced impairment (can be stopped by replacing the agenda, but a stopgate fixer). B5 reduction conflicts (limited strike, etc.)(one shot uses, but effective and common, works better if directed at the AOR player).B5 unrest (good way to stop it, many decks don't have the dip to stop the conflict, especially against that many people that want it in play). Seizing advantage (recycle someone else's limited strike every turn at the player, ouch). Concentrated effort (not the card, the players) (having everyone pick on the humans to get them down low in influence works pretty well). Soul hunter and someone else's Lovell (not something you can plan on, but I just had to stick this one in, hit sinclair every turn, if he's busy healing up, he can't build influence, I did this once, B5 had made it up to 18 influence, he only had 4 left and no other characters (as is common with this deck) I laughed for 20 minutes). And finally, the number one way to counter a B5 deck is......

USE IT YOURSELF! that's right, those agendas aren't all human only, useing one of them when it's at 18 or 19 power can net you a quick 4 to 6 power for all their hard work.   it only works when it'll put you over then top, but at an easy 6 power, it shouldn't be that difficult, and then they'll think twice about using a deck that you don't HAVE to beat, you can just use it to your advantage.

gotta go, I'll be back with comments on the other decks later.

Ok, onto the next "cheesy" deck, again, Human

Human mark deck
        ok, these have very different setups for detiny or doom, but they are both going to be discussed here to save time and postings.

Doom deck (the easier of the two)
        basic premise, get out sheridan, play lots of conflicts that give you doom marks until you get 10 (also play events that give doom marks), then play seizing advantage because by then you'd have 10 influence.

stopping
        Use aftermaths (skeletons in the closet and it will be his undoing are the best), better with destined to be, since you need them early, this deck is fast!, better used as stopgap to slow him down.
        stop the conflicts using you are not ready (an imperect solution, but it helps)
        Get rid of the Seizing advantage with a tele scan or precision strike (very good solution, but only works if you already have it in your deck, can't "just stick them in", same goes for you are not ready.)
        NOTE:FORCED IMPAIRMENT DOESN'T WORK VERY WELL ON THIS DECK (they only drop seizing adv. when it'll give them the win, the only thing to FI is sheridan himself, and that only slows it down)
        Kick the guy around as much as possible with military, this deck rarely has any real power in fleets. (not very effective, but very satisfying,and actually quite productive for you, just doesn't hurt him enough.)

and the best way to stop a doom deck....
        Support the conflicts, this way they only get marks from events and conflicts that give them no matter what, but this does force the deck to slow down and when used with some of the other things, can stop the deck, just watch out for underworld connections (lack of subtlety can help a lot, as can moral quandry)

Destiny deck (I'm focusing mainly on the Psi-Destiny deck because I thought of it first around here without the net and because I think it is the most effective)

        general idea, get out sheridan, then drop psi corps intel. and a psi character. then drop as it was meant to be and gain a mucka-load of destiny marks (one turn from PCI and often another one from no other race may participate conflicts, and all of them double, few races are equipped to deal with a psi deck) win through higher calling.

ways to beat it.
        I think this is the toughest, but here's what I've got.
        FI the AIWMTB (stop gap,since most people pack 2, you can use for my peoples, and it still has to go through, say DESTINY FUFILLED)
        government oppostion the psi corps intel (only works if you go first every turn since once the conflict is there, it's there, also see above and it costs influence)
        tele scan the psi corps intel or AIWMTB (good luck getting it through, but if few decks have a spare psi corps)
        Kick the guy around as much as possible with military, this deck rarely has any real power in fleets. (not very effective, but very satisfying,and actually quite productive for you, just doesn't hurt him enough.)

and the best way to beat a destiny deck....

have precedence errata the card AIWMTB or higher calling. no really, there is no real way to completely shut down this deck, the only thing to do is be faster. (the human is moving toards 20 power. how fast?

fast. be faster!)

coincednatlly if you actually believe you can recycle events and everything else with AIWMTB then there is only one way to stop this deck, the same way you can effectively stop any cheese deck in existance, and what I think is possibly one of the most effective tournament decks what is it? keep listening, when I finish I'll tell you.   But it only works for 2 of the factions.
 
 

ok, on to the next cheesy deck. I think we've covered the human decks, so now
to centauri (generally the second cheesiest race)

Centauri Shadow deck

ok, everyone knows about them, too many have played against them and lost, and
some have played with them. we all realiize their power, I'm not going to
bother with a synopsis.

coutermeasures

play vorlons/help out other people playing vorlons (not a really good way to
do it, shadows arefast and always on the move, vorlons are too slow and
complacent, but it can slow them down a lot and stop an early win)

FI the sleeping Z'Hadum (one of the best ways, shadow decks even in centauri
rarely have a high enough intrigue to combat 3 factions, often less than 2.
just watch out for confusion in chaos before someone supports it.)

telescan the sleeping Z'hadum (VERY EFFECTIVE, but requires starting out with
that in hand. if you know what they're doing though, then (as shown on the
show) a well placed telepath can stop a shadow deck almost completely in it's
tracks)

play shadows yourself, if both of you have FE out than neither one wins until
someone can beat the other in influence, just make sure your dek can do that.
(is very hard to do, but if you know it's coming and play human, just drop
sheridan, use his own who are you's and start with forced evolution, maybe put
in contact with shadows just in case, but ties up your opening hand A LOT)

Kick the guy around as much as possible with military (or anything else), this
deck rarely has any real power in permanents. (not very effective, but very
satisfying,and actually quite productive for you, just doesn't hurt him
enough.)

Prop up whoever is in the second position in power, he needs 10 more than them
to win (a very stopgap measure, one that won't last forever, but can but you a
few rounds in a tourney to boost your own power up for the points, and maybe
earn you a friend in the future)

and finally, the number one way to stop a shadow deck

GO TO WAR, few shadow decks can stop a war, and most have one fleet at best,
(opening hand).   if you can get of the first turn limited strike, they can't
even get SZ out until someone helps out.(unfortunatly he can play dumb and
helpless and often get support, but it allows you to knowk him down early and
keep him there for awhile.   A narn war deck can often take it on easily as
long as others don't intervene.)

ok, now we've covered the major decks, let's move on to the minor ones.

any race (often Minbari) support of the mighty deck

basic objective- get out a lot of characters, with just enough fleets to defend themself, then play a bunch of conflicts to make you think they are playing a heavy dip/intr. deck (which they probably are as well, this deck can do both quite well). then when at 13 or so influence with 7 good characters out, they play SOTM and say, "oh look, I win"

counters

ok this deck is less cheesy because it does usually play a conflict or two, but it still gets usually over 5 power from a single agenda, so there are those who would complain

attacking pawns & kidnapping-these decks use big characters, not usually promotable so they are a target for discard conlflicts and damage conflicts. often they can pass because the deck onlyy has really good dip, and just ok intr.

conflicts in general-a good test your mettle can bring those characters into play, and by neutralizing one or two of your inner circle characters, you can get rid of one of theirs, they can't usually afford not to participate

use a war deck, they usually have fleets, but not as many as a good war deck, and often slim to zero leadership

be faster, this deck isn't especially fast because of all the big characters, just get a fast deck and they'll fall

and finally, the number one way to knock off a SOTM deck...

Tu'Pari-get him in the inner circle and he can sweep this sort of deck with only a concealed weapon (maybe a thenta makur too), reuable discarding, gotta love it.

tune in next time for the continuing saga of how to beat cheesy decks, all of which will become completely and utterly irrelevant in 10 days when the next expansion set comes out.   *sigh* I don't even know why I'm doing this anyway.