Submitted by: Nyneave al'Meara- Although I am not crazy about Kaoru, I have to say that HE IS NOT GAY. Kaoru is an angel, a messanger from God, and he embraces some of God's quality--Love. What Kaora feels for Shinji is sympathy and a selfless kind of love...As for the bath scene...it is just implication of Kaoru being unaware of the shyness that exists being humans (like when Adam and Eva find themselves unpresentable to God after eating the fobidden fruit) Kaoru is not tainted by the ugliness of the human mind, and base on that argument it is logical to conclude that Kaoru is not gay. As for Shinji, I think he doesn't care if he turn to the road of homosexuality, as long as there is someone(male or female) to love him.
Submitted by: Sasami- I have a new theory which came to me when watching Genesis 0:12 yet again. ^_^ Remember in Episode 23 when Misato offered comfort by putting her hand over Shinji's? That is the same thing Kaworu did in the bath. I believe it wasn't as much a question of homosexuality as it was a referral back to when Misato tried to comfort him. And there was something else that I have forgotten at the moment, but when I think of it, I'll post it here. =)
Submitted by: Saitoh Hajime- Nyneave al'Meara: Kaworu is a pretty controversial character but are you completely sure the angels were even sent by god?? Through out the entire series the origin of the "Angels" was not mentioned so I don't think its right to say Kaworu is a messenger from God.
Submitted by: Shinju Hoh- Whethet Kaworu-kun's gay or not, it doesn't really matter, right? If he is, it's his choice. Personnally, I'm pretty much convinced that Kaoru really meant that he LOVES Shinji. I'm a big fan of the last Angel and it made me EXTREMELY happy to know that he 'loves' our hero. It's a proof that Angels are not necessarily monsters, just creatures with supernatural powers. If someone here does not agree with what I just wrote here, well send me an e-mail and Lekka Shien/flame me if you want. *beuh*
Submitted by: Noey- Whether or not Kaworu is gay or not is irrelevant. He is an angel who had to take some sort of human form, and while he appears as the male Kaworu, I think the last messenger is sexless. The sort of love and affection he displays for Shinji is not necessarily that of homosexual love. At first appearance it might seem so because many many cultures, including American teach us that one man telling another he loves him, or one man holding hands with another is "strange" or must mean they are homosexual. The love between Shinji and Kaworu is not necessarily a sexual thing. Shinji is very uncomfortable with Kaworu's displays of affection, as most of us would be, because Kaworu has not of the restraints most human beings have. Whether we admit it or not, we all mask our true feelings in some ways, and have some 'sense' of what is 'approriate' behavior. Kaworu probably does not understand why we do this.
Submitted by: Ifurita- Kaworu's exact word used to describe his feelings for Shinji was "suki." This implies a fondness. For example, "Neko ga suki desu" means "I like cats." Kaworu was displaying an interest in Shinji, but it was not necessarily sexual in any way. As an Shito/Angel (pick your favorite term) Kaworu had no use for sexuality. He was designed to be a messenger, not a father.
In my opinion, Kaworu is asexual. He can love someone as a brother, friend, or otherwise, but not as a lover. And as a Shito/Angel he would not instantly be aware of a human being becoming embarrassed about topics such as sexuality. What appear to be advances toward Shinji could easily have been Kaworu being friendly without fulling realizing the implications behind his actions.
Kaworu was also very pure, and according to Christianity, sexual relationships between a couple such as Shinji and Kaworu (they're young, unmarried, both boys, et cetera) would be considered impure, to put it mildly. Kaworu was purity more or less embodied. He sacrificed himself for the love of a species that wanted to destroy him. His interest in Shinji was a love of Shinji as a person, not as a potential bed-fellow.
As for Shinji blushing about Kaworu... Well, most people would, wouldn't they? If a man *or* woman approached me and acted like Kaworu I would be shocked and embarrassed. It doesn't have to be intentional to seem odd.
Remember that at one point in history men told one another that they loved each other far more frequently than they do now. It was a time when they did not see sexual suggestion in words such as those. Kaworu, the pure one, is mentally set at such as a time. He can be open without being burdened by all the possible interpretations of his words.
This post is already too long... That's all for now.
Submitted by: Nick- I think that I recall hearing some where that angels are androgenous. If Kaworu is suposed to invoke a biblical sens in the story it makes perfect sense that he might not be a boy at all, a true angel. He is fairly genderless looking. And besides that, Love is just an extension of friendship. Just bringing up this subject is pointless. Kaworu Probably didn't really love Shinji considering the short time they spent together, but he quite well could have.
Submitted by: YorunoBushi- I would have to argue that Kaworu is not homosexual, that being the debate. As pointed out, Kaworu used 'Suki', which is similar to fondness, more than love. Also it can be argued that if anyone had homosexual thoughts it would be shinji. He displays obvious embarassment around Kaworu, and visualy, he reflects such feelings, possibly because he can accept homosexuality being wrong and thus shinji finds another reason to dislike himself, which is itself a major theme of Shinji. Also, because Kaworu shows no embarassment being around Shinji suggests that he has nothing to hide, nor any reason to. Similarly, Kaworu could love Shinji as the sort of brotherly love one might have of a family member. To point out another thought think of professional athletes and locker rooms after a bad defeat. Comforting sullen comrades is seperate from the thoughts of comforting a sullen lover. Further, if I remember correctly, Kaworu says much of Humanity confuses him, so probably he doesn't understand the idea of any form of sexuality, thus again leaving thoughts of such things to Shinji. Kaworu is also very open, speaking his mind in what ever he says. Most people hide what they mean (something Kaworu pointed out as being odd), so while people think about loving people, we don't say it because the spoke phrase, I love you/him/her/it/etc, has the conotation of sexuality. Also, to relate various chrisitian themes, 1) Kaworu, like Rei, are presented as the unfallen beings, and therefore have no recognition of Sexuality, having not eaten of the forbidden fruit. and 2) Kaworu is presented as a sort of Christ-like figure, pure, innocent and honest, and loving all of humanity in a sort of nonsexual but extremely intimate way (even sacrificing himself for his beloved mankind.)
That should be enough from me....
Submitted by: Shahrazad The Kraken Hunter- Sorry dear Saitoh Hajime, I have to say that our friend Tabris here was a messanger of God. Why? Because if he wasn't, than what was he? There are too many peculiar events and facts surrounding him. Besides, aren't most supreme being known for sending final tests for humans? Shinji's test was the greatest of all: not to resist the only person he ever seems to feel very close towards (tell me why exactly is God supposed to hate gay people, I really don't understand)not because it was wrong, but because he had to decide who he loved more, one person or EVERYONE. So were they really romantically involved? It doesn't much matter to me. I think the only thing that really counts is that they were closer in the end than most humans ever were, sacrificing everything for each other. I'm not even a Byronist to boot, so there was obviously something special between the two of them. Something that is better left without the clumsiness of words.
Submitted by: NihonJoe- here's what i think... i think that ppl are jus sayin he's not gay cuz a lot of ppl are jus stupid homophobes. look, whether he's gay or not isnt important. he's my all-time favorite anime kyara and it doesnt matter if a person/kyara is gay or not. there's jus no diff now is there? take tennou haruka for example. she and michiru are close friends. they say a LOT of suggestive lines in the series. they're still kool even if they ARE in fact lesbians. but does it matter? absolutely NOT! i went through several kaworu pages and the best arguments were said by Rei-kun (kaworunge@aol.com). he's proven that kaworu could POSSIBLY be gay. but as i said before, does it really matter? nuh-uh. kaworu's kool nonetheless. sometimes i jus wish that ppl would jus lay off this topic about his sexuality and jus accept what he is. gay, str8, whatever. i've seen SEVERAL pictures (fanarts anyhow and one registered pic) of kaworu and shinji having more than jus an intimate friendship. all of these images were from japanese sites. and i'm sure that the japanese know a HELL of a lot more about kaworu's sexuality than ppl who get poor translations from ADV's subbing. many professional subbing companies (especially VIZ) sorta bend some of the translations to fit what seems to be fit for an average american so that they can understand the story. sometimes the translations are changed in songs jus to match the tune, which is very stupid most of the time. now about the word "suki"... this implies a certain fondness. one reason why many ppl infer that kaworu OR shinji is gay is because 1) shinji blushes whenever he's around kaworu. 2) kaworu's english dub voice was stereotypically gay. 3) kaworu freely expressed all feelings when talking to shinji.
well anyhow, he's a kool kyara and thas all that matters to me ^_^
Jya-
~NJ
Submitted by: Ikari Yui- Ok, everybody. Why don't you just rip my heart out? I just spent the past two days writing a beautiful (non-lemon) story about if Kaoru had really been a human rather than an angel and had fallen for Shinji. Personally, I LOVE Kaoru, and have watched episode 24 about 6 times in the past two days. Now try telling me again why Kaoru can't go for Shinji. I think they're cute together! What's wrong with being gay? Angel or not, I think Kaoru did have feelings for Shinji, and (you know you have to agree w/ this because it was in episode 25)Shinji was crushed by having to kill Kaoru (even tho it could be just b'cause he liked Kaoru as a friend). And another thing, (do I talk to much?)weren't the angels (correct me if I'm wrong) the offspring of Lilith and Adam? Wouldn't that make them NOT the messengers of God?
Submitted by: Gomai- Seeing as how no one's thought to ask anything other then "IS KAWORU GAY???" I might as well just continue along with this... I think the answer depends on your definition of homosexuality. If being gay is to love another man, then Kaworu is 100% gay. If we change the de finition to "be in love with another man" then Kaworu is still probably gay, as he's obviously in love with Shinji. I mean, he spends so much of his time with Shinji and no one else. As for physical attraction, I have to say you guys are fooling yourselves if you believe Kaworu was holding Shin ji's hand ONLY to give him support... He was definitely giving his love support, but their was a look of attraction in his eyes too. And finally, all this talk about someone "choosing" to be gay is just bullshit. Assuming Shito have minds similar to humans, sexuality would be an ingrained char acteristic, as impossenger against homophobia. ) Thanks for listening! Mail me any arguements ya like!
Submitted by: Harukami- OK, minna.
1) Kaworu did NOT say, "that earned my sympathy". He said, "that earned my love." Using the word 'koi', which means either love, carp (the fish), or come on. Now, which did YOU think he used? ADV merely mistranslated.
2) Homosexuality is not evil. I forget which book, but one section of the bible is all about a story of the love of two men, said in a sexual manner. 'David, thy love was pleasing to me, moreso than that of a woman.'
3) People do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. (I KNOW THIS FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I WOULD NEVER HAVE CHOSEN TO BE TORMENTED CONSTANTLY AT SCHOOL.) Presuming that God made man, therefor He created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals.
4)When an Angel says, "I feel I was made to meet you," (as you have all decided that Kaworu actually IS an Angel of God, and not just an alien that humans dubbed Angels) , you must make the assumtion that he is talking about soulmates... or whatever, sexual or not, Kaworu and Shinji were meant to be together. Oh, and Yui-san, can I read your fic? I'd enjoy that.
Submitted by: Moiraine Sedai- Okay everyone! Kaoru is not gay. And since I had the experience of buying a version of Evangelion that said it was dubbed and was really subtitled, I discovered that in the sub-titled version it says that Kaoru likes him. In the dubbed which I recently got, he says love. That's confusing as hell, but I don't believe Kaworu is gay. He is an Angel and Shinji likes him as a friend. People can "love" their friends, not meaning sexually. It's really sad that if one guy says love or like in a sentence while talking to another he's automatically gay that's not how the world works. Anyway I like Kaworu, even though my all-time fav characters are Asuka and Misato, but I'm not saying that he's not gay because I like him. Its because its the truth. And Shinji was devastated when he had to kill Kaworu because he had to kill a friend too. No one could kill their only friend (Asuka was traumatized by now) and pass it off as if it was nothing, especially if the person like! d him regardless of being the "enemy". Anyone would be very sad if they were forced to kill their only and best friend. Toji and Aida had moved, remember? And so I say that the only thing going on between them was friendship.
Submitted by: Deedlit735- Hmm... Is Kaworu gay? I think there are a lot of signs that say yes, but I don't think he is gay. I just think he loves Shinji, and is not at all intimidated by his sex. There's no reason he should be, other than someone else not liking it. If you're interested in this topic (or the weird translation mistakes for the "did he say like or love" thing), I SERIOUSLY suggest going to this interesting site, "Why Shinji and Kaworu are in love": http://www.oocities.org/Tokyo/Shrine/3961/evaessay.html It has some strong points, even if you disagree! ^__^
Submitted by: Jaenelle- I don't think Kaworu is gay because I had the same experience as Moiraine Sedai, who happens to be my sister, and he did say, "In other words, I like you," instead of, "In other words, I love you." It doesn't really bother me, anyway... I like Kaworu, and that won't change. I feel horrible everytime I watch the 12th genesis and he dies because Shinji is killing a friend. As Moiraine Sedai said, friends can love one another and it doesn't have to be sexual. It doesn't really matter to me which Kaworu/Kaoru is (however you spell it... I've seen two different spellings between the subtitled and dubbed versions) he's a cool character who is totally unlike any other anime character I've known of.
Submitted by: Vilja- Hmm. As this is a subject that's interesting to me, I'll post a comment even though all I'm gonna say is pretty obvious. Gay feelings between Kaoru and Shinji were obviously implied - you can tell that by comparing their behaviour towards each other to the way male/male friendships or romances are usually portrayed in other manga/anime. It was also done subtly so that the audience could choose for themselves whether to consider the relationship romantic or not, which I personally appreciate, because it's so devious. *grin* Since Shinji was blushing so bad, though, I kinda lean towards thinking that he, at least, was aware of and not minding what seemed to be romantic advances on Kaoru's part. Come to think of it, why are we debating whether or not Kaoru's gay? What about Shinji? The boy's fourteen... at that time, very few people are completely sure which way they swing, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Shinji saw in Kaoru not only the close friend he'd been longing for but also a possible love-interest. They only knew each other for a day or so... who knows what could have happened?
Submitted by: anomynous- OK,about this "is Kaworu is gay?"thing.personaly,I don't think he is. in the original(undubbed)version,he used the word"like",which not at all sounds like anything sexual.But,besides,even if he did use "love", it would mean it's real definition"longing to do something right for so- mebody",not anything sexual(since he is an angel). This is all I have to say(people these days)
Submitted by: Y.O.-
hmmm....very intresting.Kaworu gay?that is what I thouht when I first
saw the episode.but then,I started to think it over.
why is he gay?well,let's see the evidence.the #1 fact is that he actually said
"I love you",which will probably convince anybody to think he is actually gay.
next,he touched Shinji's hand in a sort a....er...loving way.lastly,he just stands
up without a towel or anything(which REALLY embaressed Shinji.
Okay,now we have seen evidence of Kaworu being gay.but,what if he wasn't?
let's see some more detail.
the firs piece of proof of him not being gay is because he is an angel(which
explained above are neither male of female)..next,some people claim he did
not use the word "love",but the word "like"which is very convincing.
another fact is that,he might not have used the word"love" in it's present
meaning.the word "love" in the Bible means"wanting or longing to do some-
thing right for someone else".very,VERY confusing.
personally,I really don't care,but since I just submitted this,I would have to say,
not gay.please,do not ask why
Submitted by: 17th ANGEL- My friends, it is not a question of Kaworu being gay, I'm sure we have polished that topic enough (if you think differently look at the 35 posts above mine)it is how- ever a question of Shinji being gay and discovering that homosexuality. Like most gays he didn't know he was homo until the right guy ducked around the corner(que kaworu). The thought of our young pilot being gay is rather a deflater so please e-mail me if you would like to exchange blows in a war of words or simply vindicate our beloved hero. 17th ANGEL
Submitted by: Ikari Shinji- Ok, here's my opinion...although, I am not very good in expressing everything with words, I'll try.
Have you ever watched Yuu Yuu Hakusho? Take Kurama and Hiei as an example. Kurama ( the red long-haired guy ),
he's gentle, graceful and very cute.
He's so gentle and graceful, you can tell that he is somewhat " tricky and naughty " behind that intelligent,
decent appearance. He doesn't act girlish and I could say that he is in love with Hiei ( it is not very obvious
in the episodes...[ in the first movie, they camoflauge it somewhat---my opinion! ] but if you are very observant,
just light. ) and they are a lovely couple.
Nagisa acts " very friendly " towards Shinji. For me, the definition of gay is that he acts twice as much as a woman and
really wears dresses, uses makeups and looks like a REAL woman! Very over-reacting and doesn't want to wear a real man's
clothing ( like long sleeves, necktie and stuff. ) Twice as finicky and gets on your nerves!
Kaworu/Kaoru is just " naughty " and really loves Shinji. Not only friendship, and it doesn't always mean sexually...
( Well, that's quite heavy stuff now. I couldn't express it. I couldn't find the right words! I'm sorry. Gomen! )
Does it always mean that when a boy/man loves another boy/man, he's gay?
In my opinion...no. It could be friendship.
Just like how a boy loves his father, right?
But as for Shinji and Kaworu...
I am not contradicting any fan of these two lovely couple...as for I am one of them ^_^x. I just want to clear some people
that couldn't take these situations. ( I am not offending anyone. ) What if the makers just wanna have " fun " with these characters?
( I said maybe. Just my opinion! )
Please, if it's too obvious already, don't lie to yourselves just to protect their identity. Face the facts. If you really " love "
them ( very big fans of Kaworu and Shinji...like me ^_^x ), you would still " love " them even if they are like this. As for the real
meaning of love, is not only because of their appearance, it's because they are what they are. Love losses its value when you always
say it...it should come from within...from the heart.
If you really want to see a gay anime character...watch Saber Marionette J and look at Hanagata.
There's one too in Dragon Ball. ( Dragon Ball...when Gokuu was a kid! ) He's name is Gen. Blue. Although, only in one episode he REALLY
showed that he's gay ( how I defined gay ).
I can understand the other people's definition of gay. It's very different here in Asia compare to the U.S.
I can understand the other people's feelings about these too. When I first discovered in Yuu Yuu Hakusho that Kurama's feelings aren't just
friendship, I was shocked, but then now I understood these kind of situations.
Still, they make me blush...^_^x
Anyone who would like to comment my opinion, feel free to do so. I like to discuss
about these things and I would like to make a couple of new friends or so. I will frequently visit this site and check here.
Thank you and happy discussing!
Submitted by: Civanfan- Is angel#17 gay? It depends upon your view. You'll note that Kowaru does have a fondness for Shinji, but he has a sympathy for ALL mankind, when he said "you are fragile like glass, I like you." he could well have been referring to fragile humankind. On the other hand, if it can be assumed that Shito are made of essentially the same stuff as humans, than it is theoretically possible for one of them to be in love with a human. What do I think? I think he was Shinji's best friend, which can form a bond that is even greater than love. He was a lifeline when Shinji needed one and a true friend to all humanity, sacrificing himself in an effort to allow humankind its own choice about the future, thus it's wrong to sully the memory of such a greatsacrifice by continuing a petty arguement about something peripheral to the series. No, according to the Bible homosexuality isn't right, but this isn't a religous discussion, right?
Submitted by: BillyLeeBlackTheNonSane- ok I just wanted to add my little 2 cents here about this whole thing...although I'm terrible at writing these things so please bear with me ^^ of course this is all IMO & doesn't mean its true
I believe that most of the people who claim Shinji & Kawro are gay are simply shallow.What a surprise? not really,in this "oh so advanced" North American culture labels anyone that does anything slightly suggestive to the same sex as "gay".Kawro tells Shinji he loves him? wow big deal!In some Arabian/Europian cultures men greet each other by kissing & openly admit that they love someone.Does that make them gay? hell no!
Are Shinji & Kawro a couple? or has society forced them to be so....ooooh I'm getting too philosiphical again o_O help.....
Submitted by: Marie- Well, as long as everyone else is talking,I might as well join in. From just watching the episode, I felt that Kaworu definitely did love Shinji (and yes, I thought it was romantic love). However, the question of whether or not he's gay is something else again. This whole page has turned into a debate partly based on the thought that Kaworu couldn't be gay because he was an angel. I personally agree with that statement, but not because homosexuality is supposedly wrong according to the Bible. Kaworu, as an angel, would have been androgynous before taking on a human form, so sexuality would simply not have been an issue.