數學問題---log1/log1
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 2:43 AM PT (US)
log1/log1到底等於多少?
log1/log1=0/0
=無意義
還是
log1/log1=1log1/1log1
=1/1
=1
?請告訴我答案!!!
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 3:39 AM PT (US)
0/0, meaningless
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 6:05 AM PT (US)
log1/log1=1log1/1log1
=1( log1/1log1 )
=1(0/0)
還是=無意義
SHINIKAMI
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 6:16 AM PT (US)
make it 1 lah~don't make life to complicated man~
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 6:28 AM PT (US)
我覺得ch bjo的見解有道理.
(可是1log1/1log1後面的log1不是可以約掉嗎?
那會變成:
1log1/1log1
=1/1
=1
希望你可以解我的問題,因為我很想知道答案)
(p.s.無意義=meaningless因為我忘記了無意義
的英文,sorry)
wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 6:54 AM PT (US)
Try and use L`Hopital rule.........maybe it helps.....I don't know........what's the derivative of log 1.........No, that's a stupid question.....gotta use log x and substitute x=1 after you take the derivative.....does this even make sense.....well, it's just an idea.......In the real world you probably won't have to worry about problems like this....unless you're into math.....

what's with me and ....... this morning?!

ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 6:56 AM PT (US)
你已經知道log1=0了, 那麼log1/log便是0/0的意思
請問一下0/0可以約掉嗎? 若是可以的話那0/0便等
於1, 而不是無意義了

恨世生,

You can make life easier, especially when you want to lose somce points on the quiz or test.
wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:00 AM PT (US)
this is interesting......let me see.....

you can't evaluate x/sin x at x=0 because you'll get 0/0, so you use L'Hopital, and taking the derivatives gives you 1/cos x, evaluate it at x=0, you get 1/1, therefore x/sin x with x=0 is equal to 1

Similarly, you can't do log x/log x at x=1 because you get 0/0. Do L'Hopital, you get 1/(x*e) (=derivative of log x) for both the denominator and numberator, therefore, with x=1, you get 1 as your answer.........

Ok, L'Hopital works!

ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:02 AM PT (US)
wuij:
Try and use L`Hopital rule....

1, i don;t htink it is necessiry,
2, you make the problem more complicated
3. what happened if htf does not not how to take derivative (微分)

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:06 AM PT (US)
0/0不是1,而是meaningless
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:07 AM PT (US)
log 1 / log 1 may be represented as
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log (2-x)]
i.e. not necessarily
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log x]
so ...
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:08 AM PT (US)
By the way, I don't think "meaningless" is the proper mathematical term to be used.
Shouldn't it be undefined? Or something else?
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:12 AM PT (US)
ch bjo的意思我明白,但我只是用另一角度計算,
便感到有問題,所以才會在這裡提出這個問題,任
何算式用另一個角度計算也是一樣的.e.g.
1/1
=1
1/1
=(1*2)/(1*2)
=2/2
=1
答案是一樣的.
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:15 AM PT (US)
Also I can't tell the difference between
log1/log1
and
log1/log1=1log1/1log1

Why does
1log1/1log1 = 1/1 ??????

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:20 AM PT (US)
後面的log1約掉了
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:20 AM PT (US)
In other words, I couldn't understand what you meant by 用另一角度計算.


Undefined because the limit does not exist.

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:23 AM PT (US)
sorry,可能我的表達能力不高吧,我的意思是calculate in the other way.
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:24 AM PT (US)
x/x can be cancelled out only when it is evaluated to 1. Hence, if you wrote (log1 / log1) can be 約掉, then what you meant is log1/log1 = 1.
In other words, there is no confusion nor 另一角度.
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:34 AM PT (US)
YCP也很有道理呀!!!
可是我曾聽說過
2log100/2log100
=2/2
=1
同樣道理,log1/log1也應該可以吧.......
sorry,i have not get enough knowledge,我只是中三而已.......
wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:52 AM PT (US)
sorry, the derivative of log x isn't 1/(x*e), but (1/x)*(log e). The result remains the same.
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:55 AM PT (US)
Your 同樣道理 is not logical.
log100/log100 = 2/2 = 1 (assuming log_10)
but log1/log1 is not.
wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:58 AM PT (US)
1, i don;t htink it is necessiry,
2, you make the problem more complicated

Firstly, I don't think taking the derivatives is "complicated". Secondly, I consider trying to define what 0/0 really means as unnecessary, especially when a proved rule is sitting there for us use.

3. what happened if htf does not not how to take derivative (微分)

I'm just trying to solve the problem. Not necessarily for htf though.
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 7:59 AM PT (US)
> sorry,i have not get enough knowledge,我只是中三而已.
I think that the problem is not 中三 but the misconception towards 約掉.
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 8:04 AM PT (US)
x/x = 1 is always trues except when x =0,
it is undefined when x= 0 . as YCP said, hte limit does not exist. also when log1=0,
then x/x= log1/log1 = 0/0...therefore it is undefined.

2log100/2log100
=2/2
=1

It is true because 2log100 does not = 0

wuji: get your idea^_^

suizette
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 9:19 AM PT (US)
1: 分母≠零,否則此題無解。
2: log 1=0, 1x log 1= 1x0 = 0,
 log1/log1=1log1/1log1 ≠1
suizette
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 9:25 AM PT (US)
做有關分數的數學題,有一前提,即分母不可為
零,否則此題無解﹙無意義﹚。
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 9:30 AM PT (US)
I should have written x/y can be cancelled out only when it is evaluated to 1.

Although ChBjo got Wuji's idea, Wuji's attempt is completely wrong!
The question is log 1 / log 1 and not limit_x->1 (log x / log x). We don't need no limit!

As Suizette has pointed out, log 1 = 0 and so log 1 / log 1 is undefined.

wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 9:59 AM PT (US)
YCP's right. L'Hopital rule should only be applied when evaluating limits, and this problem isn't about limits. Although the limit is 1, log1/log1 is still just undefined.

We don't need no limit!

I'd like to say something, but.......it's just a waste of time.
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 10:25 AM PT (US)
Although ChBjo got Wuji's idea, Wuji's attempt is
completely wrong!

That's what I get

ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 10:27 AM PT (US)
wuji:

you solve different question.

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 11:26 AM PT (US)
The value of 0/0 should be "indeterminate" rather than "undefined" (as in x/0, for all x≠0). To find out the differences, please check this page out:
http://www.mathforum.com/dr.math/faq/faq.divideby0.html
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 11:34 AM PT (US)
x/0 can be infinitive too, isn't it?
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 11:37 AM PT (US)
Never mind, that's all what he said.
well, Xiren, how can you find these math question web site? If i know that i can find this kind of web site, i might not be strugle in math last year.
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 11:57 AM PT (US)
htf:

If you think they can be cancelled out, then answer me:

sin 0 / sin 0 = ?


wuji:

If you want to use L'Hopital's Rule...

Let
y = ln x (make it easy, use ln except for log)
x = e^y
dx/dy = e^y
dy/dx = 1/e^y = 1/e^lnx = 1/x

So ln1/ln1 can be calculated by:

lim x->1 lnx/lnx = 1/x @ x=1 = 1/1 = 1

However since we aren't doing limits so...... what's the point for me to say all these!!??

Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 12:03 PM PT (US)
htf:

No offence, but if you don't understand this, you're not gonna do really well in math. It's my exp teaching math.

Just my $.02

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 12:32 PM PT (US)
Thanks Xiren, it should be indeterminate. I knew that I was wrong with "undefined" but I just could not have "indeterminate" recalled.

Supplement to Lazy Snake's solution:
limit x->1 ln(x)/ln(2-x)
= (1/x)/-(1/(2-x)) @x=1
= (x-2)/x @x=1
= -1
This is an example why 0/0 is indeterminate.

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 12:36 PM PT (US)
Oops, haven't pasted the correction to Lazy Snake's soln:
lim x->1 lnx/lnx = ((1/x)/(1/x)) @ x=1 = 1/1 = 1

To Wuji:
We don't need no limit should read we can't use limit.

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 12:40 PM PT (US)
Lazy Snake:
You ARE teaching Maths?!?!
No offence, but I think you are too harsh and a bit too careless to be a teacher/tutor.
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 1:12 PM PT (US)
Hey, I haven't taught for years now. My teachers are way harsher than you can imagine.
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-10-99 1:12 PM PT (US)
Well, except for the TVTS teachers, they are afraid of us.
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 1:29 AM PT (US)
>I think that the problem is not 中三 but the misconception towards 約掉.
我不太明白.........
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 1:31 AM PT (US)
綜合各人的意見答案好像是0吧.....
htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 1:31 AM PT (US)
綜合各人的意見,答案好像是0吧.....
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 1:56 AM PT (US)
wuji, YCP, Xiren:

I think we confused htf now, and he doesn't know what happened here.

htf:

Just ignore all of the discuss and focus on what suizette says, she is the person who actually answer you question clearly.

by the way, the answer is not = 0

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 2:02 AM PT (US)
sorry,我忘了---答案好像是meaningless吧....
WHY
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 4:38 AM PT (US)

小可也覺得htf應先理解suizette的留言:

做有關分數的數學題,有一前提,即分母不可為
零,否則此題無解。

log1=0,所以 log1/log1 無解。

再看看昔人爺提供的連結,若htf看得明白,其中
問題都應搞清楚啦。知道log1/log1 = 0/0的標準
名稱是indeterminate(不確定),而不是meaning-
less。勤力一點的,更可從知道為什麼0/0是
indeterminate,x/0 (x<>0)卻是undefined。

log100/log100可以給約掉是因為log100不是零;
但log1/log1哩?log1=0,換句話說分母是零,所
以不能將log1/log1「約掉」。
這是個很簡淺的道理,小可想YCP因此才說「問題
不是中三(的程度),而是htf誤解了『約掉』(的用
法)」。

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 7:49 AM PT (US)
SORRY,可是他的英文我不懂嘛,他不能令我明白.
他的英文對我來說可能太x了,grammer也有點不對
.......^_^
我對英文留言的態度是---太深便略過.

([中三]不是我打的,而是我的朋友打的,當時我不
在場,他便用我的名來胡作非為.
我用的是ie5.0,有儲存功能的..........
只有那一句是他冒充的)

suizette
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 8:27 AM PT (US)
grammer也有點不對 ??

這是口語英語,可不follow文法。

在臺灣時,學校老師教了一大堆英文文法給我們,
反而忽略了口語。到了美國,follow 那些grammer
去說英文,美國人反而聽不大懂。後來才知道,美
國人只有在寫文章時,才比較重視文法,其它時候
,並不怎麼遵守。

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 8:57 AM PT (US)
SORRY,可是他的英文我不懂嘛,他不能令我明白.
他的英文對我來說可能太x了,grammer也有點不對
.......^_^

是說在下的英文嗎?!可否告訴我是哪裡不對咧?
("grammer" 是香港用語嗎? 我所知的是 grammar.)
本來已寫了一段回應,既然閣下看不明白我的英文
,就不貼出來浪費空間了。

2log100/2log100
=2/2
=1

log100 = 2, therefore 2log100/2log100 = 4/4 = 1

x/0 can be infinitive too, isn't it?
Do you mean "infinity" ? ("Infinitive" is 不定詞.)
Well, here is a page that might answer your question:
http://www.mathforum.com/dr.math/problems/white.9.5.96.html

Xiren, how can you find these math question web site?
Try my favorite search engine -- Alta Vista:
http://www.altavista.com/
If you know what you're looking for (i.e. the keywords), you can almost find any information you need from the web in no time.

No offence, but if you don't understand this, you're not gonna do
really well in math. It's my exp teaching math.

IMHO, not everyone has to be good at math, but math is a good tool that helps people think or learn how to think.

這是口語英語,可不follow文法。
Although I don't always use formal writings when posting, I try to be grammatically correct most of the time. There are quite a few middle/high school students here, and I don't want to mislead them...

Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 9:10 AM PT (US)
Xiren:

I agree with your HO.

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 10:38 AM PT (US)
Xiren, I guess it was my words that htf did not understand and referred to as grammatically incorrect/inaccurate, or maybe 太深 (are you kidding, htf?).

I think that the problem is not 中三 but the misconception towards 約掉.
Well, originally I wrote:
"I think that the problem is nothing but the (your) misconception towards 約掉 and definitively not 中三." or the like. I found this a bit harsh, so I tried to remove "nothing but" and "definitively".

What I really wanted to write was:
"I think that the problem is not 中三 but *instead* your misconception of 約掉."
I am not sure whether this is gramatically accurate... ???
It may be "safer" to write:
"I think that the problem is not (about) 中三, and that you seem to have misconception of 約掉."
BTW, should it be misconception towards, of, or what?

Anyway, I am wondering whether htf really could not understand what we wrote.
It would not nice if he could kindly point out the sentences (which) he could not understand, as well as the grammatical errors (which) we made.

WHY
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 10:40 AM PT (US)
Oops, should be "It would *be* nice..."
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 10:48 AM PT (US)
I don't want to do something (which is) mean but...

Let's look at the last message. Seems WHY is trying to fix the message he/she just posted. However, the message before that was by YCP. So, does that mean there's some relationship between YCP and WHY?

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 11:19 AM PT (US)
I know who WHY (WH Yau) is, though I haven't met him.
The message is posted by me, using the account name YCP. I don't know why it was WHY now. Maybe it is sort of cookie problem -- I fixed WHY's "invalid password" problem on Tuesday (or Monday).

余非老頭

WHY
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 11:28 AM PT (US)
Yes, I found WHY's Username and Password in "my" cookie.

余非老頭
(I shall remove the cookie .)

Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 11:29 AM PT (US)
OK..... sorry I didn't know this YCP was "Yu Not Old Head".
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 11:31 AM PT (US)
佘老頭大概不會用英語留言。

余非老頭

htf
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 6:52 PM PT (US)
其實我的英文也不太好,只是借此藉口來遮羞吧
了.....
口語英語我知道,但只是用
來遮羞吧了.....
還有xiren我不是說你......
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 7:15 PM PT (US)
應該是只我的英文吧^_^
自己明知有錯, 卻死皮爛臉的不做更正
xph
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 7:59 PM PT (US)
既不是無意義(undefined), 又不是不確定(indeterminate),
那答案應該是無解吧(no solution)?
ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 8:13 PM PT (US)
第一次接觸這種問題, 老師會說答案無解,
過段時間, 等到學的更深時, 老師會說undiefined(找不到??)
在過段時間呢, 又變成indeterminate

所以說, 若是所學的科目不注重數學的話, 應付一下
考試便可以了, 不然可能會讓人瘋掉

wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 10:53 PM PT (US)
People here really like math, eh?

If you want to use L'Hopital's Rule...

(...an application of L'Hopital's rule (although not entirely correct)...)

However since we aren't doing limits so...... what's the point for me to say all these!!??

Thank you, Snake, for demonstrating your math abilities. However, I would advise you to read other people's messages(in this case, mine) before posting yours.

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-11-99 11:24 PM PT (US)
Xiren, I guess it was my words that htf did not understand and referred to as grammatically incorrect/inaccurate
I think that the problem is not 中三
but the misconception towards 約掉.

This sentence looks grammatical to me.

BTW, should it be misconception towards, of, or what?
"About" seems to be more frequently used in this case.

"I think that the problem is not 中三 but *instead* your misconception of 約掉."
To me, this sentence is not any different from the other one. I think that the only purpose which "instead" serves here is to emphasize "your misconception...". Since "instead", an adverb, does not modify that phrase meaningly, it can be omitted.

只是借此藉口來遮羞吧
我並不覺得問這問題有啥羞恥。事實上我認為這是
個好問題,因為它讓大家有機會動動腦筋,相信也
幫助澄清部分朋友的觀念。如果你去看了我推薦的
網頁,會發現許多人也有類似的疑問。我認為最重
要的不是知道答案是什麼,而是理解答案背後的意
義,否則今後還可能問類似的問題。問問題並不可
恥,問重複的問題才可恥,因為那表示一直沒搞懂。
在下以為懶蛇和余非老頭的評語未免太嚴苛了。

If you want to use L'Hopital's Rule...
Thank you, Snake, for demonstrating your math abilities. However, I would advise you to read other people's messages(in this case, mine) before posting yours.
Well, I'm not sure this is what Lazy Snake meant, but I did think that using L'Hopital's Rule to find limits, in your case, was somewhat silly, although it certainly worked -- log(x)/log(x) (as in lim x->1 log(x)/log(x)) can be cancelled in the first place, so why bother ?!

ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-12-99 12:03 AM PT (US)
忽然想到而已, 曾經也有人做出來了5-4後 看到
5+(-4) 時在叫救命, 說不會算

然後不知道( 1/3)x2 會等於 2/3~~~~~

wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-12-99 11:33 PM PT (US)
Well, I'm not sure this is what Lazy Snake meant

I would like to ask you this: what do you think I tought Lazy Snake meant?

Here's what I was trying to say:

YCP had already made it very clear (and I had admitted) that using L'Hopital rule is NOT a correct approach. So, that should really be the end of that little L'Hopital twist I created. I'm not exactly sure why Lazy Snake went through all the trouble to prove once more that using L'Hopital isn't a valid approach(this is what I thought he was trying to do. However, I do believe to some extend that he might have been trying to say something else--I have to admit that I have trouble interpreting people's punctuations(among many other things)--and if that's case, I dare not comment). Of course, I don't think he did it because he wanted to show mathmatical ablilities. If that't what you think I thought, well, I don't know what to say. That's why I said he might want to consider reading other people's messages first before posting his own. I mean, if something has already been said, and you can't add anything more to it, why repeat it? Maybe he just did this out of his experience teaching math: Repeat it as many times as necessary until the #$^$^#@ understands.

.......

Well, I got to admit that it certainly worked in my case.....and as a bonus, I'm beginning to understand a lot of things I didn't understand only a few days ago.

Anyway, this is way off the topic.....

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 1:35 AM PT (US)
wuji:

I would like to ask you this: what do you think I tought Lazy Snake meant?
Why do you think that I was guessing your mind?! Well, I wasn't. In stead, I was trying to interpret Lazy Snake's words with my own view, although I wasn't sure why Lazy Snake did the same thing as you did... Umm, now I look at it again, and think he was trying to say that using "ln" instead of "log" in this case would simplify things since ln(x)/ln(x)=log(x)/log(x), although, as I said earlier, the easiest way should have been cancelling the denominator and the numerator.

YCP had already made it very clear (and I had admitted) that using
L'Hopital rule is NOT a correct approach.

Well, I have to disagree. Your approach was not incorrect, but incomplete. Mr. "I'm not an old man" made it complete:
log 1 / log 1 may be represented as
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log (2-x)] (= -1)
i.e. not necessarily
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log x] (= 1)
so ...
(log1/log1 is indeterminate)

I think that the above is the most important statement in the entire thread so far. It revealed why log1/log1 should be indeterminate, and "I'm not an old man" later used L'Hopital's Rule to prove that (along with Lazy Snake's attempt, or it could have been yours.) If you didn't get this..., well, would you like some more repetitions? ^_^

第一次接觸這種問題, 老師會說答案無解,
過段時間, 等到學的更深時, 老師會說undiefined(找不到??)
在過段時間呢, 又變成indeterminate

因為這個問題的道理並不淺顯,必須略懂微積分,
瞭解「極限」(limits) 的概念,才會知道 0/0 為何
是 indeterminate。因此,在高中以前,老師告訴
學生「分母不可為零,否則此題無解/無意義(undefined)」,
將它視為定理,學生只知其然而不知其所以然,
只要會解題應付考試就行了,管那麼多幹嘛?!
試問,有幾個人想過 0/0 為什麼不能「約掉」?
為什麼答案不是 1?我想,多數人的答案會是--
「因為老師說,分母不可為零,否則此題無解!」
所以,我認為 htf 提出這個問題是很可喜的,
這表示他在思考(雖然他似乎只想知道答案,對
「為什麼」沒啥興趣)。也因此,我認為懶蛇及
余非老頭那個「文法不太對」(^_^)的評語過於
苛刻。或許兩位資質過人,從小就懂微積分,但
也要體諒我們這些平凡人嘛! ^_^

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 6:40 AM PT (US)
其實﹐區區在下寫 "the most important
statement in the entire thread so far" 8P
時﹐只想指出 L'Hopital's rule 不能解決
log1/log1 的問題。也不能解決 htf 的疑問﹐
因為 htf 的問題不是為甚麼 0/0 是無意義﹐
而且若 htf 懂 limits﹐就自然應懂得 0/0
為何是 indeterminate。所以區區在下沒有用
L'Hopital's rule 完成那 statement﹐也沒有
更正 Wuji 的算式裡的錯漏——因為區區在下
根本沒有看他那些不著癢處的析解。懶蛇花時
間修正其中錯誤﹐雖然是離題﹐但始終是好事
一件吧。

區區在下認為直說「分母是 0 就是undefined」
也不能消解 htf 的疑問﹐所以在下企圖用另
一個角度解釋:分子分母能「約掉」只因為這
個分數的值是 1。所以 log1/log1 = 1log1/1log1
= 1/1 這算式已暗示 log1/log1 = 1﹐和直接
寫 log1/log1 = 1 並無分別。換句話說,這
個所謂「另一個角度」只是一個虛像。

htf 看了這個﹐一面說區區在下也很有道理﹐
一面卻以 log100/log100 類比﹐由此可知他
當時根本不明白其中道理。這也不相干﹐只是
那一句「我只是中三而已」的辯解(後來方知
不是htf 寫)令區區在下有點不滿﹐因為區區
在下覺得這是不長進、不負責任的懦夫話。於
是就回應道﹕I think that the problem is
not 中三 but the misconception towards
約掉。這是針對「分子分母相約」的問題﹐何
苛刻之有﹖(當然﹐區區在下出言無禮﹐不留
情面應是眾所周知的。)
要是區區在下真來苛刻﹐單是一句「只是借此
藉口來遮羞」就該罵過狗血淋頭啦﹗

余非老頭

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 11:07 AM PT (US)
於是就回應道﹕I think that the problem is
not 中三 but the misconception towards
約掉。這是針對「分子分母相約」的問題,何苛刻之有﹖

這個問題的關鍵不就在於「0/0 可不可以相約」
嗎?我將 htf 的想法理解為「老師說:任何數除
以零=無意義,但是從另一個角度看,分子分母相
等不是可以相約嗎?!那麼,log1/log1=0/0 到底
該是無意義還是 1 咧?」請注意,他並非已確知
log1/log1=0/0=無意義,那是一個問句呀!
(否則後面那些不是廢話嗎?)但你卻先假設他應
該知道,才會有後續那些說法吧。


既然 htf 讀中三,不懂「極限」,讓我用這種
方法來證明為什麼 0/0≠1, 而是「無解」吧:

一、已知:任何數與零相乘,結果為零。
  因此 1x0=2x0=3x0=4x0=...=0
  0/0=(1x0)/(2x0)=(3x0)/(4x0)...

二、假設:0/0=1 為真,上式即為:
  1=1/2=3/4....
  但這結果明顯錯誤,因此假設不成立。
  又因 0/0 無法求出定值,故 0/0 無解。
  同理可證「算式分母為零時,此題無解」。

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 5:24 PM PT (US)
區區在下想﹐htf 似乎應知 0/0 = 無意義﹐
而他/她嘗試用另一個角度計算 log1/log1﹐
不把它當作無意義的 0/0﹐於是可以給約掉。
再囉囌一次﹐htf 知 log1 = 0 和 0/0 = 無
意義﹐但卻推想 log1/log1 可以不是 0/0﹐
這不是邏輯的謬誤嗎﹖若說他不知 0/0 不可
約掉﹐這不誤解約掉嗎﹖

案﹕htf 不要擔心﹐咱們慣了這麼較真地討論
問題﹐絕不會引起衝突的。

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 6:24 PM PT (US)
若說他不知 0/0 不可約掉﹐這不誤解約掉嗎﹖
他誤解約掉,因為他「只是中三而已」,沒學過微
積分嘛!因此你那句話不但「文法不太對」(^_^),
似乎還有「邏輯的謬誤」喔!(Haha... I know this one is gonna get on someone's nerves... ^____^) BTW, I was 100% sure that this YCP was "I'm not an old man" as soon as I read this sentence: Your 同樣道理 is not logical. ^_^

這種 OT 太無聊了,如果沒啥問題,在下不再回應
這個題目了(省得和非老頭糾纏不清)。^_^

wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-13-99 11:26 PM PT (US)
log 1 / log 1 may be represented as
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log (2-x)] (= -1)
i.e. not necessarily
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log x] (= 1)
so ... (log1/log1 is indeterminate)

OK, I see that.

and "I'm not an old man" later used L'Hopital's Rule to prove that(along with Lazy Snake's attempt)

I see this too. But the question is.....uh, forget it, !"old man" has already provided the answer.

it could have been yours

Well, it could have been mine, but it was not where I was going as you probably could tell.

It's really interesting going back and read all the messages again. Grammatical errors are just minor matters compared to the inconsistencies that occur in people's messages.

Anyway, I'm going to pull what I usually pull in this kind of situations: who cares?!

I was 100 ure that this YCP was "I'm not an old man" as soon as I read this sentence: Your 同樣道理 is not logical. ^_^

To be honest, I was not sure. Sure, "I'm not an old man" likes to say stuff like that and has all the logical reasons for doing so, but there are just too many similarities between "old man" and !"old man".

Again, who cares?!

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 1:26 PM PT (US)
To be honest, I was not sure. Sure, "I'm not an old man" likes to say stuff like that and has all the logical reasons for doing so, but there are just too many similarities between "old man" and !"old man".
When I read this sentence by YCP: "By the way, I don't think "meaningless" is the proper mathematical term to be used.", I thought: Umm?! isn't this !(Old Man)'s English style?! It's either that Old Man and !(Old Man) have had lots of influence on each other from growing up together, or it was !(Old Man) in disguise (Why did he do that?! Well, go figure... ^_^)! Then after I read that sentence about logic, I was totally sure that this YCP was !(Old Man) because I couldn't recall Old Man had ever made any comments like that.
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 1:45 PM PT (US)
甚麼可以約掉﹐甚麼不可﹐中一甚至之前已學
了。中三未學的只是為甚麼可以約掉﹐為甚麼
不可約掉。原先的問題不是為甚麼不可以約掉﹐
所以現在是弄錯了甚麼可以約掉﹐也就是不明
其理。
夠混亂嗎﹖

I guess all the msgs were in !(YCP)'s style.
I should have stated the YCP was "I'm not
an old man", but I was then working on a
system with no Chinese add-on.

余非老頭

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 5:03 PM PT (US)
I'm not from HK, so I don't know what you guys learn in grade schools. However, from the messages posted in this thread, I saw that htf was not the only one who had this confusion about whether 0/0 should be 1 or nonexistent/undefined/indeterminate, and (s)he is the youngest here, isn't (s)he? Among those who did "know" the "right answer", I could only recognize that one person, though seemed unsure at times, had a grip on the principle of this issue... (Well, there might be others, but I just couldn't tell...) So, what's the point of imposing unnecessary asperity on a 9th grader?! Why does it even matter that this is something (s)he should have "known" at her/his grade but didn't?! I don't see that being a valid reason for humiliating someone!

From my perspective, there is nothing wrong about doubting or challenging what we were told/taught. That's what differentiates a great philosopher/inventor/scientist from an ordinary person. "Learn" and "know" are not enough; "think" and "understand" are more important! htf, keep up the good thinking!

Also, I realized lately that being logical only makes one a certain kind of person... It's perfectly okey to be illogical...

gummy
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 5:30 PM PT (US)
While looking at the questions, you can probably know what grade (s)he is or what level (s)he is, and then you can make the answer to fit his(her) level. Sometimes you cannot teach too much becuase (s)he does not know enough material to understand what you say. Or can you tell somebody in grade 9 about derivative or integration to solve the problem?
Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 6:07 PM PT (US)
One thing is... I didn't say anything about grammar... just wanted to encourage htf to take a more in depth study in math. Maybe my way of expressing sucks, and thaz why I have so many problems these days.
gummy
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 6:39 PM PT (US)
突然想到一件事, 我們這樣寫英文會不會造成htf的困擾
我先翻譯一下我自己寫的好了


當看到一個問題(補充: 某人發問的問題)時, 便大概可以
猜到他的程度, 並依照他的程度幫他解答, 不然若是用更
進階的方法教時, 只會造成他的困擾, 就好像你不可能用
微積分的解題方式來教一個國中生啊,

(不過似乎寫英文時表達沒那麼好, 算了)

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-15-99 11:56 PM PT (US)
如果 htf 仍不明白我在上面的證明,這一頁或許幫
得上忙(雖是英文的,但應不算深,且其中的例子
挺有趣的哩):
http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/rimshick11.27.97.html

Snake:
One thing is... I didn't say anything about grammar...
??? I'm not sure what you meant! If you were talking about this comment: 『那個「文法不太對」(^_^)的評語』, well, I was just picking on "I'm not an old man".....

just wanted to encourage htf to take a more in depth study in math.
Sorry that I misunderstood your messages, but I felt that this message looked rather intimidating than helpful...
If you think they can be cancelled out, then answer me:
sin 0 / sin 0 = ?

Also, I didn't realize that the following was supposed to be an encouragement instead of a dissuasion:
No offence, but if you don't understand this, you're not gonna do really well in math.

What's with me lately ???!!! Umm... looks like it's time to take my medication again! >_<

YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 10:59 AM PT (US)
說那句話只因有人以中三程度為藉口。在下不
以為然﹐於是有「苛責」之意。「苛責」者﹐
乃是以中三程度為遁詞。

依在下看﹐htf 的(兩個)問題懶蛇和聊狂已回
答了。(0/0, meaningless 和
你已經知道log1=0了, 那麼log1/log1便是0/0的意思
請問一下0/0可以約掉嗎? 若是可以的話那0/0便等
於1, 而不是無意義了)

後來 htf 的問題大致變成log1/log1為甚麼不
可約掉﹐如果他轉問為甚麼0/0不可約掉倒是個
有建設性的問題。但他沒有問﹐只是重複自己
的「另一種角度」﹐用log100/log100類比,似
乎(根本)沒有認真想過甚麼可以約掉。

在下覺得這是 htf 邏輯推理有問題﹐而不是
程度的問題﹐理由已說過許多遍。在這一個題
目上﹐他的對「約掉」的理解或邏輯推理真的
有問題﹐在下就說有問題﹐這真的是苛求刻薄
嗎﹖在下一點也不覺得嚴苛﹐甭說 humiliation。
懶蛇的 no offence 話則是有點刻薄﹐在下看
不過眼﹐不是已損了他一記吧。

後來的話題是在下跟昔人閣下討論﹐所以才有
那些程度、邏輯等題外話。這些都不(未)是在
下最初說那句話時的想法。



覺得自己實在不知所謂﹐明明忙得要命﹐只為
了昔人一個「嚴苛」的形容詞﹐就費了那麼多
勁寫回應。愚不可及啊﹗

在下從開始就不應插嘴。

suizette
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 11:33 AM PT (US)
秋水愚笨的很,怎麼推也無法算出limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log (2-x)] (= -1) , why? answer is -1.
可否請那位高手告知,感激不盡。

How about this one:
limit_( x-->0 ) { [log(1+ x )]/ x } = ?

ChBjo
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 12:04 PM PT (US)
秋水, 我試答在這兒
wuji
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 3:43 PM PT (US)
秋水愚笨的很,怎麼推也無法算出
limit_(x -> 1) [log x / log (2-x)](= -1) , why? answer is -1.

(聊狂﹐你的連結有問題)

limit(x->1)(log x/log(2-x))
= limit(x->1) ((1/x)*(log e)) / (-(1/(2-x))*(log e)) (L'Hopital)

substitute x=1,

= (1)/(-1)=-1

(There's probably an easier approach.)

Side Note 1: log x=ln x*(log e), d/dx(ln x) = 1/x
Side Note 2: There's nothing between me and L'Hopital--I hadn't used it
in three years.

Xiren
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 11:04 PM PT (US)
依在下看﹐htf 的(兩個)問題懶蛇和聊狂已回
答了。(0/0, meaningless 和
你已經知道log1=0了, 那麼log1/log1便是0/0的意思
請問一下0/0可以約掉嗎? 若是可以的話那0/0便等
於1, 而不是無意義了)

依閣下看,那樣的回答有效果嗎?(BTW, 我認為聊
狂那句話不像在回答 htf,比較像是徵詢大家。)
再請教:難道人家告訴了答案,就不該再針對自己
的疑點進一步發問麼?

在下覺得這是 htf 邏輯推理有問題﹐而不是
程度的問題﹐理由已說過許多遍。

在下也說過?遍:閣下覺得 htf 邏輯推理錯誤,是
基於「他知道 0/0= 無意義」的假設,而由他的回
應即可確定這個假設是錯的,因此根本沒有所謂邏
輯的問題。何況,即使真有其事,難道指責人家邏
輯有問題,就能令人理解問題嗎?



覺得自己實在不知所謂﹐明明忙得要命﹐只為
了昔人一個「嚴苛」的形容詞﹐就費了那麼多
勁寫回應。愚不可及啊﹗

哈哈!愚不可及的是我吧。明明自己忙得要命,
本來這也不關我的事,偏偏好管閒事的老毛病又
犯了,弄到這會兒還在這裡和非老頭「死纏爛打」。
我這種「神精病」大概是無藥可救了…… ^_^
YCP
個人資料 | email
posted 11-16-99 11:41 PM PT (US)
還是覺得自己的假設是對的。
因為在11-10-99 7:06 AM, htf 寫道﹕
0/0不是1,而是meaningless
在11-10-99 7:12 AM, htf 又寫道﹕
ch bjo 的意思我明白
明白者應指﹕
log1/log1=1log1/1log1
=1( log1/1log1 )
=1(0/0)
還是=無意義
(11-10-99 6:05 AM)
和(或)
你已經知道log1=0了, 那麼log1/log便是0/0的意思
請問一下0/0可以約掉嗎? 若是可以的話那0/0便等
於1, 而不是無意義了
(11-10-99 6:56 AM)

當一個人一邊說自己已明白一個道理時﹐另一
邊卻表現自己不明白該道理。重複﹐再「明白」﹐
再「不明白」。余非老頭只好直截了當的說這
個人錯了﹐所錯者為何。



昔人﹐您那邊還收新病人嗎﹖ ^__^

余非老頭

WHY
個人資料 | email
posted 11-17-99 12:16 PM PT (US)

厲害!厲害!
為了這種小問題兩位元老竟寫了這般長的篇幅。

依小可看,htf 知道 0/0 是 meaningless,但被
其他人的留言搞亂了頭腦,於是忘記了 0/0 不能
約掉喇。余非老頭爺看見了「只有中三程度」的
「遮羞」話後反應確實略為過激,稍為苛刻了半點
囉;而昔人爺亦稍有過份維護 htf 之嫌。

小可想,反正 htf 已不知所蹤,爺們倆就不要再
唇槍舌劍啦。

Lazy Snake
個人資料 | email
posted 11-17-99 12:19 PM PT (US)
So... !(old head) and Xiren have been promoted from Uncle to Granny? :)
WHY
個人資料 | email
posted 11-17-99 12:54 PM PT (US)

呵呵!
懶蛇爺這般說,小可唯有多此一舉地解釋一下啦:
爺是大爺的爺,不是爺孫的爺。
(看來小可已上了《雍正皇朝》的深癮啦!)

楊過的傷心小站 | 過兒的討論區 | 討論精華
寫信給過兒 | 談天說地 | 談天說地精華討論主頁