Schutzhund, the ultimate canine sport, demands excellence from competitors in the areas of Obedience, Tracking and Protection. Originally developed for the German Shepherd Dog, you may now find many other working breeds competing in The Sport. Al Banuelos was the man who, with AB Predator, first brought Schutzhund to the world of the American Bulldog. Now, as the first American Bulldog Team to compete at the USA Nationals, Tom Riche and Brody bring the American Bulldog to the world of Schutzhund. Tom and Brody qualified for the USA Nationals on November 16, 1996 at the Trial of the Southern California Schutzhund Club under USA Judge Earnest Hintz, bringing in the scores of 90, 90, 90 in the three phases. Tom and Brody then went on to compete at the Southwest Regional Championship under SV Judge Gunther Lanfer, earning High in Protection with a score of 95. This dynamic team will compete in the USA Nationals in October 1997 in Missouri, showing the world the capabilities of our working American Bulldogs.
 

EJ: How long have you been involved in the sport of Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: Seven years.
 
 

EJ: Was the American Bulldog your first dog of choice?
 
 

TR: No.
 
 

EJ: What other breeds have you worked in Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: Rottweilers.
 
 

EJ: Have you put any titles on Rotties in Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: Ummmm, (laughs),all the dogs I had came up with problems...physical problems and it wasn’t worth pushing them to a title.
 
 

EJ: OK...so how did you get involved with the American Bulldog?
 
 

TR: Through frustration of my Rottweilers coming up with bad hips and other health problems or just not having the power to work. I’d seen pictures of them (ABs) and was curious. I had heard of Al Banuelos through mutual friends in training, got to know him and went and checked out Ike and Predator. I made the decision to get one about five or six months later. I had decided to wait for a breeding to come up and that was Brody.
 
 

EJ: And how long ago did you start working Brody?
 
 

TR: Four years ago.
 
 

EJ: As far as American Bulldogs are concerned...what do you think their strong points are for Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: What I think are the strong points? I think they have a really good future because (of) what I found just with working the Rottweilers. I mean I like the Rottweilers, the power and stuff, but to get a Rottweiler that worked in the sport like you want was generally an unsociable dog. What I like about the bulldog is they can excel in The Sport, there’s tons of drive and go go go but they can come right off the field or come home or go up to any situation and they’re just so adaptable...almost like a typical German Shepherd temperment.You know, I think they’re just so well balanced and able to be so versatile.
 
 

EJ: Do you think that the American Bulldog has any particular weak points?
 
 

TR: Weak points are,when it comes to The Sport, that they’re so confident in their drives, mainly that they’re so confident in prey...which I hate to use that word...cuz people think it’s such a bad word in this breed and I don’t know why....it’s a good thing in any breed. They are so strong and confident that they have a tendency at lack of barking. You know that!
 
 

EJ: We’ve found that, yeah.
 
 

TR: Yeah, I mean it’s a good thing ‘cuz you’ve got good strong nerves....you know that’s the difference between some breeds...like that’s the biggest difference I see between American Bulldogs and Pitbulls...Pitbull will bark and hold for 5 minutes. With the bulldogs it’s hard to get the consistency. It’s a big weakness.
 
 

EJ: What about the maturity rate of the American Bulldog? Have you found it to be similar to that of the Rottie? It’s sort of on the slow side?
 
 

TR: Yes, I think they’re on the slow side...definitely. Ya know, I’ve seen the different bloodlines. I’ve seen a lot of the Johnson stuff, particularly the Woody stuff, matures pretty early. But it depends what it’s crossed with. Brody was a late maturer, very slow maturer. I mean he would do bitework at ten to twelve months, it was nothing like what he does now. I mean it was just basically building the grip. Some dogs come out like Predator at just nine or ten months with confidence and ability. But even if a dog is showing you that, mentally they’re still immature. I’m just a big believer in waiting.

EJ: Right...so am I.
 
 

TR: Wait to put the stress on them.
 
 

EJ: Now, I know that you are a big promoter of Schutzhund for American Bulldogs. Why do you feel it is important for people to work American Bulldogs in Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: I think it’s for the future...I think it’s going to help the breed. and I think Ring, KNPV, any other type of dog sport is great. It’s just Schutzhund happens to be becoming the most popular. It’s been around for a long time and it’s becoming more common for people in general to know what the word (Schutzhund) is. I just think for the future of the breed it’s showing that the dogs are capable of doing all the things required. It’s going to be better for the general public’s view of the dog.
 
 

EJ: Let’s talk about Brody for a few minutes. What kind of training time do you put in with Brody now?
 
 

TR: Anywhere from two to three days a week. All three phases. Generally twice a week and if I can I like to fit in three days...in tracking obedience and protection. Obedience is maybe 15 to 20 minutes a session....sometimes only 10 minutes.
 
 

EJ: And how old was he when you started formal training with him?
 
 

TR: About twelve months I’d say formal.
 
 

EJ: What did you do before that with him?
 
 

TR: Just play, build ball drive and actually I did some puppy tracking with him

I started with him when he was about six months old taking him once in a while and laying some puppy tracks. Other than that it was just bonding and playing and building drive.
 
 

EJ: What did you see in Brody that made you feel he’d excel in Schutzhund?
 
 

TR: It’s kinda funny...up until he was about six months old I was kind of iffy. He was a new breed (to me) and he was so....I mean, nothing rattled him so I didn’t know if he had the potential. I was used to my Rottweilers at five or six months old fired up on people with defense and he just wasn’t that way. But between eight and ten months I had seen the way he had the desire to track and then to see him start to fire up for the bitework. He started showing potential that way. He was just unrattled by stuff, but once he started doing it his trainability and his learning capabilities were amazing to me and his willingness to please. The word bulldog...people think that they’re obstinate and stubborn and I just find the opposite. Once they understand what you want they’ll do it all day long for you.
 
 

EJ: So how would you describe Brody’s lifestyle now? Is it a regimented lifestyle or laid-back...?
 
 

TR: No, it’s pretty laid-back. I think the most regiment of his life was for his first year because I didn’t want him to be what we call general population with the other dogs. He wasn’t trustworthy in the yard or house, so if he wasn’t with me he was in his kennel. He had a big play kennel with stuff to play with in there and that was the most regimented. Now it’s pretty laid-back. After he got his SchH 2 I started cutting back, and bringing him in the house more. He’s got kind of a loafy life. I mean, his favorite spot is out in our garage. He’s got a couch out in the converted garage..it overlooks the street...he’s laying on it right now (laughs). I mean if he was showing me lack of drive somewhere or energy and I’m gonna train him at night and I put him in the kennel that morning he is an absolute nut. If I think he’s looking a little bit flat, I’ll put him in the kennel all day and he is just absolute bonkers!! It’s like I’ve built him up that way, ya know? It’s the same thing I’m doing with my new puppy. I call the kennel my battery charger...they look a little dull, you put ‘em in there. He’s pretty laid-back. My wife will bring him in the house when I’m gone and he’ll just lay in my chair the whole time.
 
 

EJ: Does Brody have any personal strengths or weaknesses that you found different from the rest of the breed in general?
 
 

TR: Mmmm not really. It’s hard to say. Like I said, in the last year we’ve been real fortunate and have gotten to see a lot of the breed and a lot of different bulldogs. I’ve seen a ton of them with potential and at least five that have potential to go as far as people want to take them. Which is pretty neat, with most breeds you don’t see that many. So I don’t know what makes him stand out. I mean, he’s just something else, you know?
 
 

EJ: What is your ultimate goal with Brody? I mean your going to the Nationals...that’s a pretty big one!
 
 

TR: Yeah, the USA Nationals is my Big goal but to break the top Ten is my Superbig goal! My bigger goal beside that is to somehow get to Europe with these guys, for the FCIs.
 
 

EJ: Are you working any other American Bulldogs toward titles at this time?
 
 

TR: I’ve just started a female , I mean besides my puppy. A nineteen month old female that I’m just starting some foundation work with. She’s out of Ellie Rock’s Diesel that goes back to Woody and Troll and the bitch is Woody on both sides. Eva Kadane and I co-own the dog....It’s her dog...I got tired of seeing her sitting still and doing nothing. She’s very nice. One of the nicest working females I’ve seen. She works like a male.
 
 

EJ: Do you see a difference between the sexes?
 
 

TR: You know what I’ve seen is that, although everyone wants a male cuz they’re bigger and stronger, females are almost a little harder headed. I mean, I can grab Brody by the ear or flank him if he’s getting a little wild or something and I’ll make him yelp...but my wife’s female, I could pick her up by her skin and never get a response...like it doesn’t hurt. They’re very tough.
 
 

EJ: Who do you do your Schutzhund training with out there?
 
 

TR: To say one particular person is hard. We have a group of about six guys that we all get together at different places: Al Banuelos, Brian Rice, Rod Tomkins, Matt Perry.
 
 

EJ: Do you have a club?
 
 

TR: The main club I’m working at right now is Southern California Schutzhund Club.
 
 

EJ: Is there anybody in particular whose been a mentor to you?
 
 

TR: I’d have to say Al (Banuelos) is the main guy with the bulldogs because he took the first step. As far as The Sport in general, I’d have to say bigtime would be David Delleissegues and Wayne Semanovich was a big impression too.
 
 

EJ: On the East Coast here ABs get a rather cool reception from the general Schutzhund community. One of the goals of the American Bulldog Club of Long Island is to promote our breed in a sport that has seen few ABs reach the heights of success. I’m proud to say that our Long Island Schutzhund Club is now at least 50% American Bulldogs. What is it like there on the West Coast? Do your Schutzhund clubs grimace when they see an AB coming?
 
 

TR: You know they really did...it was the same thing that Al warned me about when I got Brody was the reception. For his first year we had our own club here in Orange County and I really didn’t take him places until he was a little farther along and I expected the worst. I was very neutral, I mean, I didn’t go up and say "Here’s my cool bulldog he’s gonna take over the world". I’d just let him do his thing and every club we went to people would come up and ask me questions about him -- what he was like, where I got him and stuff. So it’s been a really big reception. I’d say now, ‘cuz I’ve referred people to these different clubs, we went to training in San Diego one night recently and we outnumbered the Shepherds and Rottweilers!! There were eight bulldogs! I loved it. My friend whose a longtime German Shepherd guy says "What is this? You guys are taking over!!" Yeah!! It’s pretty neat, and David Delleissegues has NINE bulldogs training with him now. I called him up and I told him I hoped he wasn’t regretting that I was referring these people to him and he was like "I love these dogs" so I wouldn’t be surprised to see Dave have one.
 
 

EJ: That’s a riot...that’s pretty much whats happened with the LISC. We’ve actually lost a few die-hard German Shepherd folks because they couldn’t take all these American Bulldogs infiltrating the club. But the way-cool people stayed, so that’s all we care about.
 
 

TR: Really? See that’s exactly what I try to avoid is the whole you know fighting breed image. They expect to see you take your dog out with a big chain hooked up to it, you know, spike collar and stuff and hey, it’s just like your Shepherds and Rottweilers and Malinois.
 
 

EJ: Well, it sounds like you know a lot of ABs in The Sport....are there any that stand out as future stars?
 
 

TR: Mac. Dave Hannah’s dog Mac.
 
 

EJ: My puppy’s big brother.
 
 

TR: Yeah, yeah that is one incredible little animal. I’m gonna steal him from Dave someday. (laughing)...No.... He’s coming down tomorrow night.
 
 

EJ: I was on the internet with him last night...he was bragging about Mac (laug

hing).
 
 

TR: Tell him we all know that he’s Vice President of the WABA now so it’s not necessary to let us know every time we talk to him that he’s Vice President (laughing).
 
 

EJ: (Laughing) I’ll mention that to him.
 
 

TR: I’m gonna give him a hard time about it. Tired of hearing about it DAVE!! (laughing).
 
 

EJ: Dave’s a cool guy.
 
 

TR: Yeah, he is...he’s got a big heart.
 
 

EJ: OK, enough about that! Back to business....Do you think it’s important to get the AB recognized by the United Schutzhund Clubs of America as purebred? I mean there’s a lot of things going on right now to where it may just end up a German Shepherd Club period, but if it’s possible, do you think it’s important to do it?
 
 

TR: I think it’s important so people can look at the magazine and say, oh this is an American Bulldog and not just a mutt. You know, you look in there and it’s like MIX and you don’t know if it’s a Border Collie, Australian Shepherd, you don’t know What it is!
 
 

EJ: It makes it hard for us to keep track of eachother, to know what everyones doing.
 
 

TR: Exactly, that’s what’s hard. But like you said, the rumors are flying. I think it’ll be just nothing but Shepherds pretty soon.
 
 

EJ: I guess DVG is going to be the way to go.
 
 

TR: Yeah, and that’s not a bad thing. I hope DVG steps up a notch is all.
 
 

EJ: Well, it’s up to the members to force it to I suppose. Our club is splitting now. Half the membership is USA and half is DVG because we don’t want to close any doors.
 
 

TR: I agree with that...I think clubs can do both. Leo Miller’s club out here is USA and DVG. I think that’s a good way to go cuz it makes everybody happy as far as club members. I’ve just seen amazing things under DVG at local trials...dogs getting 99 points and I’m seeing them come off the field with an 89 or 90 (earned) and I’m like, well I guess I blinked or something. We’ll see. I heard in Germany that there’s 20 Schutzhund titled American Bulldogs there now. I think they’re including Bs which is fine but that’s just great, that’s incredible, they’re past us. Theres supposed to be about 300 bulldogs over there now and that’s a pretty good ratio compared to what we have.
 
 

EJ: When we had our last trial we had a German judge who’d never seen an American Bulldog before. Dallas got his B and we had done some pretty good bitework the day before in front of the judge. He said he was pretty impressed by his work. So that’s one more guy going back to Germany with something good to say.
 
 

TR: Exactly, yeah, that’s what it’s gonna take. Yeah, Pat told me that Dallas’s obedience looked awesome he said.
 
 

EJ: Yeah, he’s pretty good, Gee, can I print this???
 
 

TR: Yeah! (laugh)
 
 

EJ: I wanted to talk about the WABA and particularly the BST for a minute. I was curious about how you feel that compares with the Kore-Klassing for the German Shepherd Dog? Do you feel it’s similar to that?

TR: Yeah, it’s similar to that, like of the Doberman and the Rottweilers also. I think it’s important for the future There’s gonna be a lot of ups and downs. Some people are saying the bitework testing is too hard. Some people said that at the last trial Al was very hard on the dogs. I know of some people that watched that quoted that if that was a Rottweiler Breed Survey that none of them would have been able to pass cuz the helper work was so tough. But this breed can take a lot of it. It’s good for the future to weed out what we want to use from what we don’t want to use. It’s gonna be a long bumpy road. We hope to have three different levels. Some people don’t have time for the whole sport (Schutzhund) tracking and stuff so it’s a way of testing their dogs nerves and abilities.
 
 

EJ: Is there going to be a separate obedience title?
 
 

TR: Yeah, we’re gonna do that so that people can just go and get their obedience titles and then go do the bitework and temperament test. So that they don’t have to do it all at once. Just like the other clubs like the Rottweiler and the GSD...they already have their BH (Schutzhund) so they don’t even have to do any of that...just the temperament test and bitework. So that is a plan in the future also.
 
 

EJ: Do you feel that the WABA has successfully influenced breeders to attain hip certifications for their breeding stock?
 
 

TR: YES!!
 
 

EJ: Do you think we have a chance of reducing the percentage of dogs with hip dysplasia?
 
 

TR: Yes.If everybody sticks with it. I’ve been amazed. I’ve talked to 3 or 4 people that I thought would start X-raying and have some problems and give up and just go back to the old ways.....they’ve been doing this for years without having to Xray. And they ended up getting rid of a bunch of dogs. It’s surprising.
 
 

EJ: So, it’s working, right?
 
 

TR: It’s working. I believe 2 weeks ago there were 62 OFA dogs and I think 2 years ago there were about 10.
 
 

EJ: If you could find out about the preliminaries I bet there’s a lot more.
 
 

TR: Yeah, that’s the thing that I’d like to encourage more for people to send in their prelims. They don’t send them in for an evaluation so it definitely effects the statistics.
 
 

EJ: In the last two months we’ve (American Bulldog Club of Long Island members) sent in five. We have a bunch of puppies here so we had four prelims and an adult dog.
 
 

TR: And how did they all look? I know Toro got--
 
 

EJ: Toro prelimmed fair....Grinch looks like she’s gonna go prelim excellent, Jed looks like he’s gonna prelim well.....in fact the vet couldn’t believe they were American Bulldogs cuz he had heard all the nightmare stories.
 
 

TR: No kidding? Yeah!!
 
 

EJ: Yeah, we look like we’re doing well.
 
 

TR: Whose Jed out of?
 
 

EJ: Jed’s also a Turbo son. Turbo and Russell’s Dixie Rose.
 
 

TR: Yeah, okay, that’s what I thought.
 
 

EJ: Grinch is out of Stonewall and--
 
 

TR: Grace right?
 
 

EJ: No, not Grace....Russell’s Calamity Jane. So, she’s just a tight little puppy. She’s a pisser. She’s gonna go places. Unfortunately, my husband has her, so I don’t get to work her (laughs).
 
 

TR: Well that’s good (laughs).
 
 

EJ: She’s got National Competitor written all over, now he’s just got to be able to do it. She’s his first dog to work so....
 
 

TR: Well, that’s great though. I mean, a dog like Mac has covered up a lot of Dave’s errors---
 
 

EJ: Oh he’s gonna love you! (laughs)
 
 

TR: Who Dave? Yeah, he will. He’s learning, showing HUGE improvement.
 
 

EJ: As a competitor in the Sport of Schutzhund, do you feel that a dog with hip dysplasia but no physical symptoms that is a great working do should be bred?
 
 

TR: No, I don’t believe they should. I get that question a lot with Brody. I think he’s an incredible dog, if I could have another one like him I would. It’s very tempting, I guess if there were no other potential good dogs, with the attitude that Brody has for the Sport, then yes I would, but there’s other good dogs out there that have good hips. It’s a very tough decision.
 
 

EJ: What’s your ultimate goal for the WABA?
 
 

TR: The ultimate goal? To have in the future, hundreds of bulldogs with BSTs, Weight-pull titles, all kinds of different degrees showing the dogs capability of working from Therapy dogs...things like that.
 
 

EJ: The therapy dog is nice cuz it’s one thing that if you have a dog who physically cannot work in sport, they can still do something. I have a crippled Johnson dog whose in the nursing homes twice a month. She’s perfect for it.
 
 

TR: It all helps the breed. The WABA is to help the direction of the breed.

What I saw in Fresno, I was amazed with the BSTs the people who seemed like they were hoping the dogs would fail. They were excited to see dogs fail. I don’t want it to go that way. I want everybody to Pass. I don’t want people to skate by, but I want everybody to pass to show the capability of these dogs.

A lot of people wanted the obedience part to be off lead, but this is the beginning and I think it has to be handler friendly. I mean maybe you could take the dog to off lead obedience but a lot of people don’t have the capabilities....they haven’t been around it. So should that limit them from being able to put a title on their dogs? Because it’s a Temperament test! First and foremost it’s a temperament test.
 
 

EJ: A lot of people don’t have help available to them.
 
 

TR: Exactly.
 
 

EJ: They live in some remote areas. I’d be lost without my Schutzhund club. Back when I started I wouldn’t even have begun to know what to do with Dallas.
 
 

TR: I’m hoping that five years from now the dogs that are going for their titles are going to be so much better. That’s my prediction. They’re going to be so sharp and so on the ball. The handlers are going to be so full of knowledge about training.
 
 

EJ: I feel that our breed is at a crucial point right now. The WABA is getting stronger and because of that so is the American Bulldog. My training partner, Rick Quinn, often says that the American Bulldog Association is the only hope for the American Bulldog. What are your thoughts on this and on all the American Bulldog registries that seem to be popping up out of nowhere.
 
 

TR: Yeah (laughs). How do I put this into words? I agree that the ABA is the strongest. I think it’s sad to see that everybody and their brother is starting up a registry. It’s like, "oh I don’t like the way this guy feels about the color of my dog or something, so I’m gonna start my own registry". That would never even cross my mind. Obviously the ABAs been around a while. I think everybody should try to pull together. It is at a crucial point. It’s such a broad spectrum right now. You have the dogs that look like gigantic English Bulldog/Mastiff things and the whole Scott Vs Johnson thing. To me a good bulldog looks like a good bulldog. It scares me....the extremes. It is at a crucial point and I don’t know if I have all the answers but it’s a shame to see all these different registries starting. On one hand I think that it might be good to let all the big English Bulldog looking dogs go their own way.
 
 

EJ: I was going to ask you about the new ABA standards and what you felt about the

splitting of the American Bulldog into two types.
 
 

TR: I don’t really like it. I’ve seen so many dogs that are so close and it’s like, "Gee which one do I enter?"
 
 

EJ: That’s the problem that I have with Jubilee, she’s a huge female with an undershot jaw on a gorgeous Scott head.
 
 

TR: That’s my puppy, my little Diesel and Sophie puppy, he’s got an undershot so which do I put him in....he’s gonna lose in either one. It’s kind of frustrating. I don’t know the answer but I don’t really like it.
 
 

EJ: As far as working ability goes, do you feel the Johnson type is equal to the Scott type whether it’s Schutzhund, Weight Pulling, whatever it be?
 
 

TR: I like the Johnson blood for the protection, as long as they’re physically sound enough and capable enough, I don’t see the limitations. I’ve seen 85 pound Johnson style dogs that have all the potential in the world. But the big exaggerated style won’t last in The Sport. To withstand over the years of work, I don’t see them hanging with it....they just don’t have the endurance. I hear all the time "I have a 125 pound Johnson dog with a two-inch muzzle that I run 5 miles a day with!" Well, I’d like to see it. I think that’s great if you can. I like a bulldoggy looking dog if it can function and work. There’s some smaller Johnson style that I know that have some good hips and that’s great....it’s good for the breed. You don’t want them all to end up looking like little Pitbulls. The color thing I don’t agree with either. I’ve seen some good dogs that are obviously bulldogs that have a lot of brindle. Maybe they don’t have the perfect percentage of white according to the new standard. I think that was a really tricky decision there, I think that’s going to be a big controversy. I think people got obsessed with breeding brindle dogs when the movie came out. I don’t care if they’re all white or what. It’s just structure and temperament for me.

EJ: Is there anything in particular you would like to see happen in our breed in the next five years?
 
 

TR: Just stay together. Not so much animosity toward eachother. To me, we should all be on the same side. There’s so much conflict, but we’re all in the same breed. We should be rooting for the same things for the future of the dog to go forward and not get obsessed with the "my dogs bigger", "my dogs run farther", "my dogs bite harder" stuff. Everybody should just drop the pride issue. Hey if I can breed to your dog and help yours or if you can breed yours to mine and help my bloodlines instead of the whole "I started it first" thing. That’s what I get tired of. I’m not a breeder. I plan to breed in the future; to produce some stuff that I like or for the betterment of the breed. That’s my thing. I’d like everybody to stay focused on the same thing, not eachother’s ego.
 
 

EJ: So, are you optimistic?
 
 

TR: Yes. I guess the chances of that happening are very slim, but I’d like to see it.
 
 

EJ: So do you have any final thoughts?
 
 

TR: It’s great that this year Omar and Nikko (DVG) and Brody and I (USA) are both going to the Nationals and I hope next year there’s gonna be more people. I’d love to see ten bulldogs going to a National level, whether it be Schutzhund or Ringsport or whatever it is.
 
 

EJ: Well, we’re gonna work on it!!
 
 

TR: Yeah, Everybody’s working now!!! Two years ago they weren’t!
 
 

EJ: Yes, and two years from now you will probably get your wish!
 
 

TR: And Brody and I will be just forgotten about!
 
 

EJ: I really doubt it Tom, I really doubt it!!
 
 

EJ: On behalf of the American Bulldog Club of Long Island and the LI Schutzhund Club I would like to congratulate you on your huge achievement of qualifying for the USA Nationals. We wish you the best of luck. I personally plan on being in the audience cheering you on!!
 
 
 
 
 
 

The 1997 USA National SchH3 Championship will be held on October 24-26, 1997. The event is being organized by the Mo-Kan SchH Association. For information contact Mark Przybylski at 816-238-0508.
 
 

For information on finding a Schutzhund club in your area contact:
 
 

United Schutzhund Clubs of America

3810 Paule Ave.

St. Louis, MO 63125-1718

phone: 314-638-9686

Email: USA Schutzhund@worldnet.att.net
 
 

or
 
 

DVG America

5718 Watson Circle

Dallas, TX 75225

214-361-0183
 

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