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Combat Class: Beginners -- August 2000


You say, "Okay. Can anyone tell me what combat is?"

Tiralyn raises her hand.

You say, "Okay, Tira."

Kalenar says, "Fighting, war, a brawl, deadly and dangerous, and fun sometimes."

Kalenar says, "That was typed fore she rose her hand, sorry."

Tiralyn stands up and pushes her glasses up her nose.. "Well it is an intricate balance of +ooc coding and rp, hopefully based in more of the IC than in the +ooc. Through rping +training (both which contain IC and ooc elements if done CORRECTLY) you can boost your stats in your desired weapon, which will make you more effective on the battlefield. :)

Rorgan chuckles, "Okay, you've both got a goodly part of it, but I was looking for a broader definition at this point. I define combat as any situation in which your character has a chance to physically affect and/or injure another character."

Rorgan grins, "Do you all buy that definition of combat?"

Tamran nods

Nilgaer says, "I dunno"

Rorgan grins, "Okay, let me illustrate the point (with hopefully a positive example)..."

Mardamir says, "Well, among a few other things, your character also has an equal chance at being physically affected and/or injured"

You say, "My character is standing on a table in a bar/tavern and falls off, right into a crowd of people gathered around. By my definition above, the 'rules of combat' which we'll get into in a bit would apply, wouldn't they?"

Rorgan nods to Kel, "This is also a very important point. :)"

Kalenar nods. "yes.

You say, "Nilgaer?"

Ghaztbrog nods.

Nilgaer says, "yes?"

You say, "Did that illustration help clear things up a bit?"

Nilgaer nods. "That it did."

Rorgan grins, "I think it's a particularly good illustration in that it shows a situation where the 'rules of combat' would apply, but there wouldn't really be any need to rely on the coded combat system."

Ghaztbrog says, "Unless one of your 'buddies' was playing with a nasty dagger at the time ;)"

Kalenar nods. "Eventhen, would you?

Ghaztbrog says, "You can choose to do CS or RP in that case. It'd prolly be one that's better for RP :)"

Adramir says, "RP is always better than CS."

You say, "There is very little in the way of code that would even begin to approximate what could happen in a situation like that, so RP would probably be better suited to deal with it."

Ninvainiel says, "RP is NOT always better than CS."

Adramir says, "Yes, it is."

Ninvainiel apologizes for interrupting.

Adramir says, "Unless you are dealing with a twink. In which case, I would avoid the combat. :)"

Ghaztbrog says, "RP is preferable, however, twinks aren't some rare entity."

Ninvainiel points out that the CS includes RP. It enhances RP. If you are not entirely certain what the outcome of a fight will be, the CS can be a very good guide for your RP.

Rorgan grins, "RPing combat without the Combat Code would be an ideal to try for. Unfortunately, sometimes it's really hard to decide or to negotiate the outcome of an encounter beforehand."

You say, "But we're getting ahead of ourselves. :)"

Adramir says, "CS dictates combat and can't possibly deal with the many intricacies of combat."

Ghaztbrog says, "CS -can- be used solely as a guide."

Kalenar Looks at Rorgan. "Shall we stop this side track, and return to the class?"

Rorgan grins, "Okay, going back to what we were talking about... I described a situation that would be better solved through RP than the use of the code we have here on Elendor. What I'd like to know is if anyone here thinks that the combat code could be used as a substitute for RP?"

Kalenar shakes his head. "But perhaps, as Ghax sayes, use cs as a guide to the RP?

You say, "It can't. RP is always the most important part of any encounter, whether the encounter follows the 'rules of combat' or not. And now that I keep referring to them, let's talk about the rules of combat. Anyone have and idea what I would mean by the 'rules of combat' when I speak of RP?"

Kalenar Smiles. "Take turns, each time Poseing a move or moves you do.

Rorgan nods, "Good. That's one -- everyone should get a fair chance to react/act before the scene moves on."

You say, "Anyone else?"

Ghaztbrog says, "Ooooh, oooooh!"

You say, "Okay, Ghazt. :)"

Ghaztbrog says, "Never pose the opponents reaction/movement/bloodspilling :)"

You say, "Okay, that's a good one -- never (ever ever under any circumstances) pose directly affecting another character without their prior permission."

You say, "Care to give us a negative example (something NOT to do)?"

Nilgaer says, "That works for Rp combat. The help files point out that you pose once before the attack an and once after with the CS to pose your hit. Not necessarily the target's movement but the fact that you hit, how bad, etc... I think"

Kalenar sits, his mouth silant for a change.

You say, "The help files are wrong in that regard, Nilgaer."

Ghaztbrog says, "Nope on the second fact Nil."

Nilgaer checks what his second fact was and nods. "Okee"

You say, "We'll get to that when we get to talking about RP with the combat system. Right now we're still on the general rules that can apply to any combat. :)"

You say, "Anyone want to give me an example of what NOT to pose in a combat situation?"

Nilgaer could.

Rorgan nods, "Go for it." :)

Nilgaer attacks Rorgan swinging his greatsword down in an arc. Rorgan is unable to evde the blow and his head is chopped off with a loud *THUNK*

Nilgaer is good at those.

Rorgan chuckles, "Yes, that's definitely a negative example. Anyone care to tell us why?"

Nilgaer could.

Rorgan nods, "Go ahead, Nils. :)

Ghaztbrog says, "We want Rorgan to feel a more painful death? ;)"

Nilgaer says, "I practically moved for you when I said you were unable to evade the blow, and posed the damage, as we established earlier was wrong, with your head falling off. Not to mention it just bit."

Rorgan nods, "Well, we're not going to comment on style tonight. Just content." :)

You say, "And you are correct. Your pose acted for me and also dictated the results. Can you make a good example, too?"

You say, "Or fix it so it follows the rules we've got so far?"

Nilgaer peers up at it. "I can sure give it a shot... would be shorter than it already is."

Taking a leaping step forwards Nilgaer swings his greatsword down in a arc, attempting to take off Rorgan's head.

Rorgan nods, "Okay. That one fits the rules. Anyone else have any more rules of combat?"

Kalenar thinks. "You can not use a weapon you don't have?

Ghaztbrog says, "Don't do too many things in a pose... Don't RP doing things you physically can't..."

You say, "Okay, you're on a good line of thought there, Kal. Let's generalize it a bit more: Only use what's available to you ICly." You say, "And you, too, Ghazt."

You say, "Other players are constantly telling me that Humans are easy to RP, because for the most part, we're all humans in real life, and we should have a pretty good idea how high and how far a human can jump, or how fast one could run, etc."

You say, "That leaves us, as a human culture, with next to no excuse for having our characters do things that they just wouldn't be able to do in real life. There are two basic names for doing this, despite the fact that we /should/ know better: tanking and twinking."

Kalenar nods, and raises his hand.

You say, "Tanking is continuing to fight without RPing appropriate wounds. Twinking can be a number of things, among them doing things that your character wouldn't be able to do, or abusing the combat code, or other things that we will undoubtedly get into later. Yes, Kal?"

Kalenar Smiles. "That answers it. I was gonna ask the differance.

Rorgan nods, "Tanking specifically has to do with how well you take (RP-wise) the wounds given to you by the CS, or in strictly RP combat, how often you actually take wounds and how they affect your character in subsequent poses."

You say, "Any more rules of combat we need to cover? We have:

1) Allow everyone involved to have a fair turn.
2) NEVER pose actions that affect another character without first obtaining permission.
3) Only use what's available to you ICly (including the physical attributes of your character).
4) Don't do too many things in a pose."

Kalenar shakes his head. "
Not I.

Nilgaer says, "Nor I"

Rorgan grins, "What do you think Ghaz meant by saying 'Don't do too many things in a pose'?"

Nilgaer could give an example, though Ghaz pretty much summed it up in what he said.

Kalenar nods. "only one move an attack.

You say, "Okay, just to illustrate the point of #4 above: I'm using my bow to shoot at someone from behind the front lines. I decide to switch to my sword and attack someone in hand to hand combat. We're all in the same room, so I should be able to drop the bow, run a hundred yards, and smack the foo' all in one pose, right?"

Nilgaer says, "Nah.. I'd say drop the bow and draw your sword.. MAYBE begin running..."

Rorgan nods, "Good answer." :)

Nilgaer says, "Would readying your sword take up your CS turn anyway?"

You say, "No."

Nilgaer nods and wasn't sure on that point.

Kalenar says, "This is the RP anyway, not the CS, right?"

You say, "The rules I've outlined have to do with combat in either scenario: RP-only or CS. Now, I want to deal with a few things along the lines of etiquette in combat before we continue."

You say, "#1) ALWAYS page someone before you attack them, RP or CS. Not just to obtain their permission, but that's the primary reason.
#2) BEFORE combat starts is the time to work out the 'stakes'. Is anyone using a virtual alt?
Will it be CS or RP-only? Will there be any character deaths (i.e. free flees)? It's best to have all the details possible worked out ahead of time. Even down to who the ultimate winner of the combat will be, sometimes (and especially in RP combat -- sometimes you have to do what Bzjokze and I did last year and just agree that you'll beat each other senseless and mutually crawl back to your own lines)."

Kalenar nods.

Thoras says, "ok"

You say, "These things are almost important enough to be rules of combat, but they specifically refer to combat with weapons and combat that occurs with 'enemy' cultures."

Nilgaer says, "But wouldnt' that take part of the spontaneity away from it? In my experience spontaneity is part of what makes the MUSH fun.. otherwise one might as well be an actor in a playhouse."

Rorgan nods, "Yes, it can, and that's where the CS comes in. The CS is enforced sponteneity."

You say, "It's a TOOL to be used to assist you in RP."

Ghaztbrog says, "Determining the winner might, free flees, free loots, and so on do not however."

Rorgan nods, "Yeah, I was thinking that he was specifically addressing knowing ahead of time who the winner is."

Nilgaer nods.

Rorgan grins, "The other things are best to work out ahead of time, because they're almost all OOC considerations anyway."

Nilgaer says, "alright, continue please."

You say, "Now, the thing with every tool is that it has its specific purpose and when you try to use it for other things, it doesn't always work so good."

Thoras says, "I used to page someone if I would do something really inflicting to an opponent, that is usually a good thing, a for permission and B so they know how to respond"

You say, "We've already had an example of a situation where the CS isn't the best tool for the job. Can anyone give me a situation where the CS is a good tool?"

Kalenar thinks. "In a war? Say five people on each side come together.

Rorgan grins, "That can get awfully spammy, but more often than not, that's where you'll see the CS used in Gondor."

You say, "Even if the odds aren't even, or especially so."

Thoras says, "I was about to say that"

Thoras says, "when you both cannot agree on RP'd combat"

Nilgaer almost said that. "But in those cases you coudl call in an Arb."

You say, "If three Mordain Snagas caught Rorgan out in the forest, they'd probably try to claim that they would kill him outright. I'd have to dissagree with them, of course, and we'd be left with using the combat system to decide, just as Thoras says. :)"

"Now, CS-wise, being a +trainer, I could probably take out 3 snagas, depending on how all the bonuses worked out. But would me using the fact that they are +titled SNAGA be a good way for me to decide whether or not to engage them in combat in the first place?""

Nilgaer says, "That'd be using OOC information ICly"

Ghaztbrog says, "You only call an arb if you're having a real problem delegating if something was possible or not and and the contestants continue to aruge... and only if its a multicultural issue."

Kalenar Agrees with nil

Rorgan nods, "If it's an issue within your culture, you should allow an LA to settle it.

Ghaztbrog says, "And if there aren't any LAs, go to a +helper :)"

Ghaztbrog says, "Prolly +trainer before +helper actually."

You say, "And in multi-cultural 'engagements', more often than not, you will have an OOC leader who can reach some sort of compromise with the OOC leaders on the other side of things. Usually by the time someone is far enough along that they're comfortable being an OOC leader in an engagement, they've got RL friends on the other side, and it's a lot easier to work things out among friends than to call in a stranger (though, it's sometimes necessary)."

Rorgan grins, "Now, returning to the previous thread. Using their +title to determine whether or not I am going to fight them is using OOC knowledge ICly. And that's a bad thing, right?"

Kalenar says, "Right, I would think."

Nilgaer says, "Noooo!"

Rorgan nods, "It's an abuse, but a very common one."

Nilgaer says, "That was sarcasm by the way. Or an attempt at it."

Ghaztbrog doubts 3 snaga would ICly try to take you :)

Thoras says, "I would say it's wrong"

Rorgan chuckles at Ghaz, "Do I have a reputation over there, too?" ;)

Rorgan nods, "Anyhow, let's say that Rorgan and the 3 Snagas are all a bit bloodthirsty or whatever and it actually develops into a CS fight (since no one can agree on who should walk away)."

You say, "Let's say that it's night, in Mordor, and Rorgan is taking a serious beating from these three guys... How the heck do I get my character out of the room before he dies?"

Nilgaer says, "+flee"

Thoras says, "FLEE"

Rorgan grins, "Thoras got it. Which direction should Rorgan flee?"

Rorgan grins, "The direction he came from or whatever direction is the most logical for the scene."

Nilgaer says, "Opposite of them? And back towards fellow humans."

Thoras says, "most logical"

Kalenar says, "ya, most logical for the sceen."

You say, "So let's say that the exit that Rorgan is ICly closest to (and the Orcs are ICly furthest from) is East. What would I type to flee from them?"

Kalenar Raises his hand, mostly as a guess.

You say, "Go for it Kal."

Kalenar says, "+flee east?"

You say, "FLEE EAST FROM "

You say, "Who's name should I use in there?"

Thoras says, "room name"

You say, "Nope."

Thoras says, "errk one of the Snaga"

Nilgaer just looked it up. "I would say the weakest snaga..."

You say, "The most proper way would be to flee East from whomever immediately follows you in the turn sequence."

You say, "As long as that person's character is attacking you, that is."

You say, "Note, though, that turn sequence isn't usually a formal thing."

Kalenar nods.

You say, "Okay. Who wants to tell me how to attack someone with the CS?"

Thoras says, "consider kill "

Nilgaer could.

Rorgan nods, "Go for it, Nils."

Nilgaer says, "+attack ?"

Nilgaer says, "or jsut attack?"

Kalenar says, "Or ATTACK name"

You say, "Just attack. No +."

Nilgaer always got the + and reg. commands confused.

Thoras nods

Kalenar says, "So, are there not 2 other commands?"

You say, "Now, the Elendor combat system has attack weighting. I'm only going to touch on this briefly, though."

You say, "The weights are 0-10. 1-9 are considered normal attacks. ATTACK without specifying a weight is identical to saying ATTACK/5 . 0 is a special weight and indicates an intentional miss. And a 10 is a special weight that always grants you a hit."

Thoras nods

Nilgaer says, "Deosn't 10 leave you somewhat mor eopen for a counter attack though?"

Nilgaer says, "meaning they can inflict more damage..."

You say, "Now, the most often asked question is whether or not attack weighting directly affects the damage you do. The answer to that is no. It only affects your chance to hit. Numbers less than five decrease your chance to hit, and numbers above 5 increase your chance to hit. Any increase in chance to hit reduces the chances you have of defending against the next attack(s) against you (until you attack again) and any decrease in chance to hit increases your defensive capabilities."

You say, "There is a certain chance that the return attack against a /10 weight will be a critical hit, in other words, a blow that can do up to half your ORIGINAL hit points in one blow."

You say, "There are some more commands in the CS. Name them."

Kalenar says, "Dodge?"

Rorgan shakes his head, "Nope. No dodge command." You say, "Your dodging ability is figured in when someone attacks you."

Nilgaer says, "+wear?"

You say, "SHOOT would be one, but I'm thinking of a few more. Yes. +wear, +wield -- the equipment commands. There are also character commands. Anyone know them?"

You say, "+hp, +cstats, +training, +xtraining."

Thoras says, "yeah hang on let me list them"

Rorgan keeps it moving for those who are running short on time.

You say, "There may be more. The point here is not to actually cover every one of them in depth -- that's what you have to read the help files for."

Thoras says, "yeah"

Kalenar nods. "Now, how do we RP CS combat?

You say, "RPing CS combat is a simple sequence of events. In the most simplistic sence it follows through these steps:

1) Someone poses an attack.
2) ATTACK command is used. CS posts result.
3) Defender poses reaction to attack, according to what the CS posted, and then poses an attack in return (if he is ICly able).

Repeat process.

And before I call it a night for actual teaching (I need to take a break for a few minutes, and then I'll open it up to questions), I'd just like to give you guys my 'secret' to good combat RP: keep it real. No comic-book or movie stunts."

You say, "Actually it bounces back and forth between 2 and 3 after the first time 3 is passed."

You say, "The important thing to remember is that using the CS on Elendor is considered a priveledge and the priveledge can be revoked."

Thoras says, "I know"

Kalenar nods. "I understand. I do not think I will need to have it so, though. I just want it in case.

Kalenar says, "I do not think IC battle is commen, but I'm probably wrong."

Rorgan nods, "Like I said, the CS is a tool you can use to determine a spontaneous outcome to a fight. Some people really like it and some don't.

Argamir likes it

You say, "And IC battle, in Gondor, tends to be a way of life." You say, "Especially for those in the military professions."

Thoras doesn't he enjoys RP'ed better

You say, "We're just having a brief time of peace, due to the inactivity in other cultures during the summer."

Kalenar Laughs. "THats why I needed to be CSed, when possible. I am pationt.

You say, "Now, while I locate my test, do you guys have any specific questions?"

Nilgaer says, "I may.. is combat between inanimate object Rped or is there system for that as well? For instance, a ship battle with catapults.""

You say, "That is RPed. There was talk at one time of a ship to ship combat system, but it's never been coded that I know of."

Nilgaer nods. "And beasts? They essentially work the same as fighting a character?

Thoras says, "Aye"

Rorgan nods, "Generally, yes. Most of the time there will be a controller running a beast, though a beast is also capable of entering combat as an automaton."

Nilgaer says, "How complicated is their programming as an automaton.. I'd guess.. attack until reaching a certain level of HP then attempt to flee?"

You say, "Sometimes. Some of them attack until they die and then reset themselves."

Nilgaer says, "Do seige engines have coded attacks?"

Rorgan shakes his head, "Seige engines are RPed as well."

You say, "We rarely use seige engines, though."

Nilgaer nods. "Alright.. I think that about covers it."

Thoras says, "cool"