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Theme Class: Gondorian Society -- August 6, 2000
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Thorondur steps up the podium, clears his throat to check the mic, and dives in. "Thanks for coming, guys!"
Thorondur says, "Okay, this is the first in what will be a series of classes on Gondorian Theme and, particularly, society -- in other words, the IC environment we all RP in."
Angbor says, "Oooh.. Goodie."
Thorondur says, "We're going to try and be very interactive with this, and give everyone a chance to ask questions and the like."
Thorondur says, "To keep order, though, here's the layout --"
Thorondur says, "I'll talk real briefly on our topic.. maybe 15 minutes.. and then we'll do a little Q and A. I'll need people to raise their hands (just like school!) ;) when they do have
questions... so we can keep from getting spammy. :)"
Thorondur says, "So... Today's class will cover a topic of definite relevance to the upcoming Tournament TP -- The so-called 'Nobles' and 'Commoners', what each really are, and how they
interact with one another."
Thorondur says, "First thing I'll ask is that everyone take a couple minutes to please look over +GHELP THEME6 .. even if you've read it already."
======= Gondor Help: THEME6 =======
Society: Nobles and Commoners
There is great respect for the lords among those beneath them; even in its waning, most of
Gondor's lords are powerful and noble, in the truest sense of the word. Though our idea of
'Nobility' in the twentieth century depends largely on action, there is an additional factor in
Tolkien's world dependent on bloodline. In almost all cases, nobles and lords have their
position by possessing a greater strain of blood, which translates in most cases to higher
intelligence, greater stature or strength, and more capable will.
Gondorians, even the lower class, are not land bound and kept slavishly in servitude to these
lords, as was the case in the Middle Ages, where the lord could decide who his land-tied serfs
could and could not wed. There is greater freedom of movement between the fiefs and a greater
prosperity; simply put, Gondor is a rich nation with much fertile land, more than enough to
support its people. Your average Gondorian is honorable, loyal (sometimes to a fault), and
respectful towards superiors.
Thus we see that while Gondorian society, on the surface, resembles medieval European society
in some ways, there are many basic differences between the two, because of which the cliches of
arrogant, cruel nobles and villanious, cheating commoners are not feasible here. In fact,
nobles and commoners share a very strong bond of loyalty, trust and respect. Please keep this
in mind while RPing.
=========================
Thorondur says, "While everyone's reading, is there anyone who can tell me -why- 'bloodline' is so important in Gondorian society? What the -difference- is between the bloodlines of the
people we call nobles, and the ones we don't?"
Thorondur peers about for raised hands. :)
"How can some wins the noble title" Duramir asks eating THAT cookie
Gweneth raises the hand
Thorondur says, "Hold on to that question for the Q & A, Duramir, and I'll answer it then. :) Gweneth?"
Gweneth says, "nobles have strong blood relations to those who lived in numenor? :)"
Thorondur nods. "Exactly! The nobles are the ones who are descended most directly (and in fullest degree) from the original Numenorean Exiles who came with isildur and Anarion.
Thorondur says, "This is what makes them 'noble'. Their bloodlines, as +GHELP says, are given 'in most cases to higher intelligence, greater stature or strength, and more capable will.'"
Thorondur says, "BUT. With greater gifts come greater responsibility."
Thorondur says, "Now... how about the majority of Gondorians?"
Thorondur says, "Most Gondorians have some degree of Numenorean blood, yes. But where's the rest of it come from?"
Thorondur says, "Anyone?"
Duramir says, "Rohan relative ?"
Gweneth says, "the srtawheads and sheepmen? :)"
Thorondur coughs something about raised hands. ;)
Angbor lifts his hand.
Thorondur says, "But yeah... this time I'll let it go. ;)"
Thorondur says, "Angbor?"
Duramir raise his hand
Angbor says, "Nah. I'm lagging.. basically what Gweneth said."
Denis has arrived.
Thorondur says, "Right then. The native people of Gondor -- who were here before the Numenoreans -- are closely related to the Dunlendings. Later on in history, a lot of Northmen, and their own descendants, the Rohirrim, intermarried with Gondorians (mostly in northern Gondor)."
Thorondur says, "Now, the whole relationship between the more-distinctly Numenorean noble familes and the less-fully-Numenorean majority is based entirely on that Numenorean bloodline... when Isildur and Anarion came with their people from the Sea..."
Thorondur says, "They built great citadels and the like, yes -- and they protected the people from Sauron and Mordor. All those lords asked in return was the people's loyalty, which just
about all of them gave freely, because they recognized the might of these new 'High men'."
Thorondur says, "That's the foundation of relations in Gondor between people we call nobles and commoners."
Thorondur says, "What that means to RP is pretty simple... but something we all need to keep in mind, and remind new recruits of if they ask.. :)"
Thorondur says, "The nobles treat their 'subjects' with respect and honor, as free men. The commoners look to the nobles for leadership, because they trust they're honorable folk who will
provide it. :)"
Thorondur says, "I can't underline this enough... there's NO CLASS-BASED RESENTMENT in Gondor, as a general rule. :) Some -individuals- might have such feelings..."
Duramir says, "I have a question about this...."
Thorondur says, "But for the most part, this society is pretty happy with itself. It's worked for 3,000 years, after all."
Thorondur says, "Hang on Duramir.. :)"
Thorondur says, "So... how does this translate into RP? That's what this Q&A is going to focus on. :)"
Thorondur says, "I'm sure that some of you are wondering how this affects your characters, Let's discuss. Who's got questions?"
Tiralyn raises her hand. Obnoxiously at that.
Thorondur says, "Okay... first we'll cover Duramir, then Tiralyn is next. :) Duramir?"
"How can someone wins the noble title" Duramir says, "is was a question..."
Thorondur says, "Well. That's a good one."
Thorondur says, "Most noble titles are inherited, hereditary, based on bloodlines as we've already discussed. But I suppose in rare cases of extraordinary heroism or service, the Steward
or the Prince could actually grant a noble title."
Thorondur says, "Does that answer your question? :)"
Duramir nods
Thorondur grins. "Cool. Tiralyn?"
Gweneth notes Torelin of Amrodath was such a commoner
Tiralyn is curious. In theme6 which we were all privied to read, I find the last paragraph to be rather... ummmm... opposite of what we do have in here in Gondorian society. Alot of people
who are nobles of some manor or house, have gotten that title or position from having a rather 'randy' excuse the term, way of going about and making bastard children. Yet in Theme6,
wouldn't that be against Tolkien's ideas of a pure and rich equally accepting society... (I have another one after this)
Ninvainiel ohs and raises her hand too.
Thorondur says, "Okay, we'll cover Nin's first before your second. But to answer your first..."
Thorondur says, "There's only a few nobles I know of who are IC bastards... I know I haven't personally allowed any into the House Girithlin while I've been controlling it, for the exact
reason you stated. :) But, one thing to keep in mind... we're all playing humans, and even Tolkien's High Men have room for human error. Just as -some- characters -might- nurse their own
bitterness against a general group of people (i.e., nobles or commoners), others might be products of just such indiscretions. We're good, but we're not perfect. Perfection"
Thorondur says, "Perfection isn't much fun to RP after awhile, as all you ex-elves know. :)"
Ninvainiel snickers.
Thorondur says, "It's an example of balancing Theme against the need to have interesting and varied RP, I guess. That satisfy you? :)"
Tiralyn nods.. I guess it'd be pretty boring if we were all perfect..
Thorondur says, "It's important to keep these characters rare, though."
Tiralyn just snickers... its becoming more widespread though.
Thorondur says, "It'd be boring if everyone ran around with that kind of history. This way, the few who do are more urious and the RP's a lot more fun. :)"
Thorondur says, "Well, I can only think of one who I know offhand. ;) And ICly Thorondur doesn't even know that person's a bastard. But anyway... Nin?"
You say, "Er, yeah. So you've mentioned about Gondorians, and numenorean blood mixing with local stock. But what about the Arnorians?"
Duramir raises his hand again...
Duramir says, "Before I leave...Thorondur what you said about how commoners treat the nobles, can you say the same thing as how scouts treats rangers ???"
Thorondur says, "Well, they're a bit more stoic than we are, after all, their kingdom was destroyed over 1000 years ago. As a result, they chose as a people to enforce very strict rules
of marriage, ensuring that their blood lines would stay pure... even as they dwindled in numbers."
Thorondur isn't really qualified to discuss scout/ranger interaction, Duramir. :) Better to page or +mail one of your Ranger leaders with that question.
You say, "So there was no mixing of blood while they were still a kingdom?"
Thorondur says, "I'd imagine there must have been, but it's hard to say. Tolkien never addressed it like he did with Gondor."
Duramir says, "thanks then...nice class...now i am going to mirkwood"
Ninvainiel shrugs. Not so important anyhow I guess :)
Duramir waves
Thorondur says, "For those of you who want to read the thematic basis for all this talk of bloodlines and mixing, read the chapter titled 'Faramir' in Two Towers (Book IV). :)"
Thorondur says, "Okay... so Tiralyn, you had a second question? :)"
Gweneth raises her hand.
Tiralyn says, "so would those same 'within theme limits' work in general interacting with a noble and a commoner? I mean, do they feal jealousy? Would they fight for honour in a duel, if
they were soo perfect, and would they protect themselves in a battle of deception or wit?""
Tiralyn says, "To clarify, all you high and mighty nobles fighting duels over honour...
according to Tolkien's perfect GOndorian society... that wouldn't take place.. so do we generally stretch theme to make things more interesting and more to human nature as we know it today or in the past?"
Thorondur says, "I imagine there could be some individual jealousy, of wealth or some such, but not of one's own lord certainly... usually the lords are good, upstanding people who have earned the respect they receive. We do stretch things a bit... but again... those of us who have been playing nobles for a long time don't fight a great many duels."
Tiralyn coughs.
Thorondur says, "Last duel I fought, I was a newbie, it was September of 1995, and yeah... I was a noble, fighting a commoner. :)"
Thorondur says, "Gwen has asked if she can interject something. Gwen?"
Targon says nothing about newbie Rondo.. :)
Gweneth notes the subject of duels and theme has been brought up with the LA's among themselves and probably will be ammended in the Codex of the Swan as will the general laws of Gondor
concerning it.
Thorondur says, "Good. I was never too fond of duels anyway... obviously. ;)"
Gweneth says, "As you said, Tira, the thematicness of duels is... questionable. :)"
Tiralyn grins... thank you. :)
Tiralyn says, "But!!!"
Thorondur says, "Okay. Now.. did you have a question too, Gwen? I remember you raising your
hand."
Thorondur says, "Uhoh. But? ;)"
Tiralyn says, "Does thematic stretching allow us to be more human than perfection? :) I just don't want to go out there and make a fool of myself. ;)"
Thorondur says, "Yes, yes it does. We're humans. As long as we make our best efforts to remember this is Tolkien's world and not blatantly violate theme, we should be okay."
Tiralyn says, "Kay! THanks rondo! ;)"
Gweneth says, "In the end, play your character. :)"
Tiralyn giggles and bats her eyes. :)
Thorondur says, "I mean, so long as you don't suddenly turn into, say... oh, a gold-skinned sorcerer with black robes and hourglass eyes casting death on the general populace, you'll probably be alright."
Tiralyn LAUGHS
Targon says, "Dang..."
Gweneth sighs and throws that +wardrobe away...
Targon says, "there goes my next character"
Angbor hrms, "Yeah. I was hoping to get some magic stats with that one...
Gweneth says, "D and I were going to be twins too..."
Gweneth says, "So, yeah. Slighty off topic I suppose, but I had this question the other day and didn't really know the answer, but did nobles and/or commoners have large or small families?"
Thorondur says, "The main idea of keeping in theme is to avoid the idea we see sometimes, with people cursing nobles because they're 'fops' or some such."
Tiralyn says, "Are we couting all those bastards out there? :)"
Thorondur says, "Oho, good question Gwen..."
Tiralyn giggles.
Thorondur says, "And also, to add to what I just said (before answering Gwen), to avoid nobles sneering at the 'common folk'."
Dania raises her hand.
Thorondur says, "Now, as far as families, it's hard to say... but we know that the Dunedain were waning. The men married later in life than we do RL, and the population of pure-blooded
Dunedain dwindled constantly... I doubt there were many huge families. Denethor had two children before his wife died, and Imrahil had four... so that's probably a fair standard,
those two right there."
Gweneth says, "So pretty much the same as today?"
Targon says, "Duinhir as well."
Thorondur says, "I'd think so. :)"
Thorondur says, "That answer your question?"
Gweneth nods
Thorondur says, "Okay then, next is Dania. :)"
Dania says, "Thanks,well, I don't know whether this is off-topic or not, but since we are talking about perfection and being human, I would like to ask whether my outburst (just now,
for glaring at the Knight-Herald) is acceptable or not :) I haven't been involved in much RP here, but I have to work on my character soon, :)"
Thorondur says, "Oh, it was perfectly reasonable. :) Now, whether or not it was in keeping with -decorum- (i.e., doing that in the presence of your Princess) is a different matter entirely.
:) It's like this..."
Thorondur says, "I'm a Green Bay Packer fan, and my friend is a Chicago Bears fan. Now, we're friends, and it's normally okay for us to give each other a hard time about this stuff... but
not while we're standing up on the altar at someone's wedding. Make sense?"
Thorondur grins. "Cool. Anyone else?"
Tiralyn steals an O-R-E-O while Rondo's distracted.
Tamran has an out of topic question...
Thorondur says, "I guess we can try that. Shoot. :)"
Tamran says, "Well since I just came, I was wondering if someone loged this class? (So I can bog Rondo with questions after) :)"
Findon does..
Thorondur says, "Yes, Nin is logging it. I'd assume we'll probably ask kel to post it on the Gondor website. :)"
Dania does too
Thorondur says, "Yes, a question Findon?"
Tamran says, "Great thanks and sorry for the distraction"
Thorondur says, "No problem. :) Last two questions will have to be Findon and Dania so you all can get back to RP. :)"
Thorondur is of course free to discuss this stuff further at any time. :)
Dania meant that she is logging the class :p
Thorondur says, "Oh, okay."
Thorondur says, "Does anyone else have a question, then?"
Findon says, "yeah... Um, supposedly the numenoreans protect the common people, right? Well, the Minas Tirith guard, or The City Guard In Dol Amroth for a better example -- They can not
only consist of nobles, so dont the commoners protect themselves? sort of?"
Thorondur says, "Well, yes. But who orders and commands the City Guard? Boromir. :)"
Findon grins "Alright. (:"
Thorondur says, "And Boromir is the scion of one of the two noblest families in all Gondor. :)"
Findon gives up. (:
Thorondur says, "Excellent! Well, I want to thank everyone for coming. :)"
Ivriniel grins, 'thanks for the class Rondo"
Thorondur says, "The next class in this series will be forthcoming. :) Hopefully I can tie that one in to an IC event too. :)"
Thorondur enjoyed doing it. :)
Tiralyn grins... yeah thanks rondo.. :)
Thorondur says, "You're welcome, all. :)"
Dania says, "Thanks, Rondo.. :)"
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