mick: OF course, I expected to be attacked on this issue. Which is why I'm not surprised by any of these strong opinions. Can I ask you, for a moment, to set aside the rage we feel toward these perpetrators and look at theses issues logically? Ask yourself what you want in the end. I, for one, want no more serial killers, rapists, pedophiles, or any other type of dangerous predator, because they damage the quality of my own life, as well as the rest of society.
del: absolutely. i don't want this to get personal..just a discussion here..oh..if you don't mind me asking...how am i not looking at this logically?
del(quote): have you ever seen what these offenders do to their victims?
mick: I have not only seen what offenders do to people, I have experienced it, as a victim of child sexual abuse, so, yes, I can see the issue from the victim's point of view.
del: i'm so sorry that you had to suffer through an unnecessary, and horrid abuse.
del(quote): it's not about revenge. it's about justice. it's about respect.
mick: If we truly consider it to be about justice, we would want to be 100% sure the punished WERE the perpetrator. Punishing someone for something they didn't do is not justice. It IS about respect, respect for life, and once some one is executed, there is no way to turn back the clock if they were convicted falsely. That is a horrible DISRESPECT for life.
del: what gives you this amazing doubt of our legal system? what is the percentage of false conviction? before the mid-80's, we had not been able to use DNA as credible evidence, but since then, DNA has thrived to become the most prestigious form of identification. and because of this, the percentage of false convictions occurring has reduced. you say it as if everyone convicted is innocent.
del(quote): i think it's hideous that us taxpayers are wasting our $$$$$$ on keeping these freaks alive. and the issue here isn't the money(whether it costs more or less to kill them).
mick:It costs more to put some one on death row than to confine them to life in prison. In countries were they have the death penalty, violent crime is usually higher than places where capital punishment does not exist. Do you see a pattern here? Violence begets more violence, contrary to what many others want you to believe. You can't "scare" an offender into not being an offender anymore. Most of them follow through with their crimes because they think they won't get caught.
del: yes, i am aware of the financial cost. as i said explained before(look above), that is not a significant issue. i just mean that i'd be more comfortable knowing that i'm not wasting my money on keeping these offenders ALIVE. about the death penalty. i have done some studies on this, and i can assure you, it is definitely not a deterrence. the point of the death penalty, however, is NOT the reduction of crime. it is the purpose for serving justice. death penalty actually increases the percentage of the usage of the insanity plea. i just want to make this clear, that the death penalty is not used for a deterrence in violent crime. in no way will it reduce it. an offender is an offender no matter what the consequence.
del(quote): sexual offenders cannot be rehabilitated. once they've gone to that level, to the point where they begin to act out on their fantasy, there is no way back. i can promise you that. you can tell a petty thief to stop stealing, by teaching him certain morals, and giving him a job, and some money to provide him stability. but you can't tell a child molester to stop fantasizing about touching children. it just doesn't work that way. it's become their desire.
mick: I agree with you to a certain point. Our justice system has failed miserably at rehabilitation. However, that doesn't mean it's completely impossible for all types of offenders.
del: i didn't say it was impossible. i said it was impossible for sexual offenders. not the others.
mick: A person's whole life experiences greatly influence how they turn out. Things that seem to have nothing to do with their offenses may be the defining issues that lead to the choice between following the law and breaking it. We haven't been able to find the keys we need to treat these sick individuals (please don't try to tell me you don't consider them sick) because our resources are already spent on punishment, rather than treatment.
del: oh yes. i do consider them sick. otherwise i wouldn't believe in cap. punishment. treatment...we do have some great mental institutions. but then again, as i must explain(again), sexual offenders cannot be rehabilitated.
mick: That's where the "studying" comes in. How do you think the authorities have been able to learn about profiling? By doing extensive psychological exams on the people they HAVE caught, recognizing patterns, and applying the data to subsequent situations. In a twisted way, serial killers DO have something to offer society, the potential of learning how we may prevent more serial killers in the future. As you are a visitor to this site, I would think you could determine how Ted Bundy and others were worth more to us alive than dead.
del: ah..as i said again before..the "studying" part. death row lasts quite a long time. there is plenty of time to study them before they face their destiny. oh, and about bundy...he was interviewed exhaustedly before he died by FBI agent, bill hagmaier.
del(quote): and about the "studying" part of all this. death row lasts a pretty LONG time. we have PLENTY of time to interview and do our little tests to come up with our own conclusions, etc. but what is most important, is that our highest respects are for the victims, and their families who must suffer without them. they deserve justice.
mick: I agree with you 100% on this. That is why it is so important that we be sure we punish the RIGHT person.
del: and again i question your doubt...we are careful, but we do make mistakes. it is definite, though, that we have been successful for rightfully convicting an offender, for the majority of the time.
mick: There are many victims and families of victims who would agree with you, and rightfully so, but many, who have experienced what you would call justice, report that they felt no better once the preditor was executed. They still had to deal with a horrible loss, and no matter what was done to the criminal, their loved ones were still gone or irreversibly harmed. Their ache was no less, their loss still painfully present.
del: oh, of course they are still in pain today. they are living it every second, and will for the rest of their lives. i did not say that the death penalty would justify the victim's death(i said that it would never make up for it)and would make everyone content. but, i do believe that the survivors do feel better knowing that their predator was executed, unable to harm anyone else again. offenders of such heinous crimes don't deserve to live.
mick: HOWEVER, I do think victims and loved ones of victims should have more of a say in determining punishment, regardless of what that punishment may be.
del: of course.
del(quote): somehow i believe that we live in a country for the criminal. jail life can be risky, but it has it's appealing side. they get shelter, hot meals, cable tv, theaters, libraries, weight rooms, as well as several other activities. hell, they can get their college degree(william heirens)! there are people who are outside, and are moally competant who don't get these chances. some people even commit crimes to get in jail to take advantage of the "goods." i know a prison warden, and he has helped me evaluate what kind of life it is in jail. sure, there are some jails, that are not too pleasant(leavenworth..etc..)..but for the most part, it's a pretty safe place. you just have to watch your back. however. sexual offenders(esp. child molesters) keep quiet, try to hide their identities, and try their best to do their time so they can get out. they don't want anyone to know who they are or what they did, because their lives are at high risk. the other inmates don't respect pedophiles. they like to beat them up, and rape them even. sexual offenders do their time, get out, and do it all over again. there is no deterrence in this case. nothing works until they cease to exist.
mick: Remember that there are people who go to jail at a young age and become institutionalized. These people don't know how exist in the outside world, so, naturally they try to go "home." If they had the opportunity to learn how to exist in the outside world, most criminals would choose freedom over prison.
del: well, geez, no kidding. but, why are we so concerned about the criminal's well-being? they all deserve to be in there, and plus, it's not all that bad in the first place. they have plenty of privileges there.
mick: They may get the "goods" you describe, but they have no choices - their lives are run by some one else. Is this the life you would choose? Use some common sense.
del: the life i would choose? the criminal doesn't have a choice. you think i'd be deservant of a choice after i've kidnapped, abused, beaten, raped, killed, and mutilated five or six small children? hmm..i'd like some coffee please, and an explanation of the common sense you speak of.
del(quote): once you break the law, your rights are taken away. that's what a government must regulate. otherwise, somebody would kill somebody else and we'll say "what the hell, that's ok!! come to live with us in jail and get your college degree!!" the gov.'s responsibility is to protect the rights of our citizen. that's the FIRST priority. if we cannot cherish the lives of our citizens, then why have a government at all?
mick: As someone who has experienced violent crime on a personal level, I once felt the way you do now. However, now I know the man who abused me might not have done it if it hadn't happened to him. I don't want him dead, I just don't want him to do it to any one else.
del: that man would not have abused you if he had any self-control, compassion, and morality, regardless of what he suffered in his past.
del,
I believe I know what you say when you talk about feelings of sexual inadequacy from the killers mind - that they feel this way and tend to be the killers with more of an unorganized style and mentality. The othe side of the coin are the killers who have illusions of grandeur; who consider themselves smarter than law enforcement and who use a more systematic and calculated method. These guys are harder to catch. Is that what you were getting at?
When I suggested we look deeper at the psyche of a killer, I was referring to feelings of inadequacy as a person. Many serial killers (no, not all, I rrealize) had troubled childhoods, which probably left them with the sense that they were unloved or inadequate as a person. I believe they feel this anger and try to overcome it by creating a situation where THEY are the kings, the ones in control. What more control can you have over some one than holding their very life in their hands? Get my drift?
I believe a similar situation exists for serial and one time sexual offenders. Many of them report the rush they felt in hearing their victims beg for mercy, cry, etc. So you see my line of reasoning? They need the feeling of power to feel bigger as a person. The only difference between a killer and a rapist is their weapon and the extent of their actions. A killer uses a knife or a gun or a piece of rope, a rapist uses his penis or some other like instrument. The objective for the killer and the rapist is to make themselves feel better by any means they know how. To the rapist, it really osn't about sex, but power, to the killer it really isn't about life and death, but about power.
Is this clearer than our discussion last night?
I'll let you respond to that before I tackle the greed issue. Perhaps we should use email so as not to clutter the board? What do you think?
mick
mick..
i don't know, but i think when we chat it's harder for us to communicate because i agree with everything you've said here..in fact i think that's what i was trying to explain..actually, i think we were both misunderstanding what each of us were trying to say..which turned out to the the same thing anyway. circles... oh well, i'm glad you understand. now about the disorganized type of serial killer. you're right, it is for control, and a sense of power. what i was trying to say was that it was also for stability. the inadequate types have, throughout their entire lives, experienced feelings of insecurity, and low self-esteem. most of them have never found success in the social world, and relationships. with this(their illicit activities..), they try to prove to themselves that they can be in control, and that they have the ability to be what they've always wanted. this provides them with security, satisfaction and stability.
i totally agree with you that most of these monsters have had tough childhoods; they were all once victims of society(which is why i believe the only effective deterrence to crime is found through education in morality and ethics..). most of them also know this..and what causes them to act out in such compulsive ways is their over-self pity, their self-justified reasons for wrath, their unrestrained desires, and so forth..
i want to make this clear...i believe that everyone is born with morality. however, if they do not choose to practice it(or have the chance to), they will certainly lose it. of course, depending on how well they are educated and raised, not all have the same opportunities as others. however, i do sincerely believe that everyone is responsible for their actions, and that no one, unless having had physical damage to the brain, has the capability to be insane. in place of that, i believe wholly, in mental instability, where an individual is able to manipulate their heads into believing that their acts are justified, therefore feeling no guilt, or remorse, and loosing grasp of their morality at the same time. this also brings up the topic of polygraph testing. many of the guilty have passed this test, only because they truly believe that what they did, was justified, thus feeling no guilt. now, a very unsure, nervous individual, who has not been able to justify their acts in their minds, will feel the guilt, and thus, fail these tests. i only brought this up..because it sort of relates to mental instability..being able to feel guiltless about a lawless act by altering the lines of justification...
anyhow..i hope this clears things up between you and me.. .
all good things,
delano
Posted by del on August 16, 1997 at 02:16:01:
ok..i'm going to make this as brief as i can..(tired..and i'm pressed on time.). allow me to "clarify" my view on prisons.. i believe that correction facilities are made for the small time criminals like petty thiefs, and so on. these facilities should concentrate on rehabilitating these offenders, through education, and therapy. i agree with you that, the most critical part of the process is the result and product. however, for the sexual offenders, i believe that rehab in any shape or form cannot cure them of their doings. their lust and hunger for this can never change. thus, the solution is none other than solitary confinement, or death. i personally, would rather have them dead(no matter what the cost). at this point they are no good to society. if there is any chance of escaping, these creeps will get out and rape and kill again, there's not a doubt about that. as for capital punishment being a deterrence to violent crime..it isn't. it never will be. i agree with you that it does nothing to help deter crime. the only thing that CAN deter crime is education. what capital punishment is responsible for, is closure. it is a resolution. it is the consequence. as for repent, and forgiveness, that is something we, as a society, can offer to an extent. but not to sex offenders, only the others. i believe that everyone knows the difference between right and wrong, regardless of their background, past, etc. i refuse to believe in criminal insanity(as there has been no proof of it's existence), and i refuse to believe that people are controlled by their past. everyone knows what it is like to be hurt. if they choose to inflict pain on others to satisfy their perverted lust, then that automatically categorizes them as not only deviant, but immoral, selfish, and criminal. these people who, obviously have no self-restraint, or respect for others, cannot go back. they're forever stuck in their train of thought. they've become animals that will not stop unless they are forced by a third party. how many battered and raped children must we go through to try and offer these monsters our services? it's intolerable. now for the serial killer "studies" and so forth. how much studying can be done on them? during their time on death row, either they reveal, or they don't. it would be no different if they had gotten life or death. either way, if they feel that they owe us nothing, they are going to keep their mouths shut. yes, i must say that if bundy was still alive, we would probably learn to understand him more. but i must swallow my loss, because the first proiority belongs to the victims and their families. they deserve closure, and conclusion. i will not stand in their way, just because i want to "understand" ted bundy, and meanwhile risk potential lives by keeping an escape-happy serial killer alive. it's not my place, nor right.
ah, well, i hope i've cleared this up for you mick..great talking to you, it's been real..
all good things, delano :o)
Posted by mick on August 17, 1997 at 21:36:15:
In Reply to: CAP PUN : mick posted by del on August 16, 1997 at 02:16:01:
It has been great sharing opinions with you and I completely respect and understand your point of view. You are obviously some one who believes very strongly that capital punishment is just and I admire your tenacity in expressing your belief.
This is one of those intense topics that we could go back and forth on forever, like abortion or gun control, and I would not try to sway you. Do they have capital punishment in Canada?
I agree with you on many of your beliefs, but not all. You see things as much more "black and white" than I; my practicality sometimes overcomes my sense of morality. This makes for interesting conversation between us.
As for sexual predators - you are right, at this point in our society, we have no way to effectively rehab all of them, but there are SOME (yes, a tiny minority) who have been able to control their ugly sides. There are those, also, who have these horrible urges as merely a symptom of a deeper internal problem. Perhaps, one day we can control some of this ugliness with medication.
I have to disagree with you, however, when you state that everyone knows the difference between right and wrong. We learn what is accepted behavior as children much as we learn the difference between what is a "chair" and what is a "dog." If a child is raised in an environment where it is deemed acceptable to commit rape or spousal abuse, he or she finds it much easier to commit a similar an act as an adult. Even if greater society deems this behavior inappropriate, the damage is already done. We should also remember that society constantly evolves in its views of what is right and what is wrong. It was only a few years ago (relative to the life of western society) that women finally decided to coin the phrase, "No means NO." For centuries women have been viewed as having the minds of children, unable to make their own decisions. We are still trying to move out of the mindset of, "she says no, but she means yes," **I am in NO WAY justifying rape or coerced sexual intercourse here!! I am only trying to describe possible explanations!***
I still believe that, in the long run, there will be fewer victims if we can learn as much as possible from offenders.
As for closure, that depends on the victim and the victim's loved ones. I don't think we, as a society, have the right to dictate that to anyone, whether the outcome is capital punishment or not.
Off the topic, sort of, - how do you think your views on criminals will affect you when you are interviewing the subjects you will be studying as a criminal psychologist? You will have to be able to deal with them objectively to be able to get a correct diagnosis.
Posted by delano on August 17, 1997 at 22:10:12:
In Reply to: Re: CAP PUN : mick - hey, del! posted by mick on August 17, 1997 at 21:36:15:
time for some closure!! yes, this has been a very serious, and intense topic...controversial alike the others(abortion, biomedical ethics, euthanasia...etc..). i'm so glad to have had this excellent discourse! quite an experience..if only it could've been easier..
hmm..about that..what?
you: "Off the topic, sort of, - how do you think your views on criminals will affect you when you are interviewing the subjects you will be studying as a criminal psychologist? You will have to be able to deal with them objectively to be able to get a correct diagnosis."
wha..? what do you mean by this? explain.. do you mean..because i do believe in CP..how will i be able to relate with criminals? is that what you mean?
get back to me on this..
del
Del,
Sorry I missed you in the chat room. And I was so looking forward to talking to you again! When do you want to get together? Did you have a nice conversation with X?
About my question - I have to apologize - as I read it now, the wording sounds a bit confrontational and that's not what I was going for - sorry!
Just that your choice of words give me the impression that you feel very strongly about criminals and the insanity plea. I know nothing about the field of criminal psychology, but does the profession hold some ethical standard on its members' attitudes in this area? I guess I have an image of the psychologist as scientist, who deals with subjects purely for information and the sake of knowledge. (Maybe I'm stereotyping here) I realize you're just getting started, but if you're asked to diagnose a criminal who's using the insanity plea, and it's already established that you believe the isanity plea to be bullshit, won't your credibility be called into question?
Have you seen "A Time to Kill?" I think it would be worht your while, and it's a very well done movie!
Let me know what you think, mick
Posted by delano on August 18, 1997 at 14:16:47:
In Reply to: Re: the conclusion... posted by mick on August 18, 1997 at 08:29:34:
mick:
o..i see what you're getting at... yeah...i've seen a time to kill..and though carl lee haley was not insane, i am able to excuse the case for the situation he was in...what i call his situation is a justifiable homicide..an act of vigilance, yet very justifiable.
now..about this .. insanity plea topic.. actually, i think my belief that it is BS can serve as a strength.. so many psychiatrists who try to diagnose these criminals end up being naive, and are easliy deceived. with my belief, and my further studies, i believe it will help me deal with the credibility of the criminal's words. i won't be easly deceived like the others.. david berkowitz is an example of this. i believe he is not only sane, but extremely imaginitive and clever. so many psychiatrists believed he was a paranoid schizo when for real, he was just a guy with some serious mental instability. mental instability. that's what's in place of insanity for me.
del :o)
del,
Can we shoot for tomorrow? School hasn't started yet and they're already giving out reading assignments; I'm trying to get the jump on the competition.
Actually, when I was talking about the movie, I was referring to the incident involving the the psychiatrist who would not diagnose the defendant as insane. Remember? He had a history of refusing to use that diagnosis as he didn't believe in it. It was probably his track record that lost the case for the prosecution.
So then do you believe there is no such thing as insanity?
mick
Posted by delano on August 18, 1997 at 20:47:44:
In Reply to: Re: oh i see... posted by mick on August 18, 1997 at 19:54:30:
oh..that idiot psychiatrist..right.. i perceived his testimony as BS for the prosecution. if HE didn't believe in insanity, he wouldn't have been treating his mental patients for it. he was more of a biased type of psychiatrist, or, you could say, probably even bribed.. like jake had said, he testified against insanity "for reasons of trial." like, he was the prosecutions, "yes-man." i believe in insanity to a point..but the insanity i believe in isn't under the definition..exactly... ah...i wrote my term paper on criminal insanity.. i'm currently working on my won site, based on criminal psychology..when it get's done i'll give you the URL so you can check it out and understand what i'm trying to say. i believe that insanity only exists if there's been permanent physical damage to the prefrontal cortex, the emotioning/reasoning area of the brain. when this area of the brain is damaged, the person no longer possesses the ability to understand social interactions... the first man this happened to was phineas gage..i'm sure you've heard of him before..it was in the 1800's.. anyways, i won't get into too much depth..but the definition of insanity says it "usually excludes physical damages to the brain, ex: psychoneurosis, or mental retardation." which then ofcourse, pretty much rules out what i cal insanity. AA..so confusing. there's not a good enough definition of insanity to be able to define it. it's rediculous. as for criminal insanity..there has not been one case yet..that has proven to me that the criminal was actually insane.. i once thought that ed gein could've been a possible victim of insanity, until i learned more of the details. he was totally sane too.
del :o)