John Schafer = J:
Loreena McKennitt = LM:
[...] denotes musical interludes
*...* include non-speaking additions
| [Santiago fades out] | |
| J: | Santiago is from the CD release, the mask and mirror by Loreena McKennitt and on this edition of New Sounds, I've moved into our performance studio... and it's a pleasure for me to welcome to the proceedings for the first time the Celtic harpist, pianist, singer and composer, Loreena McKennitt and the members of her band. |
| LM: | It's a pleasure... |
| J: | I suppose when I say "Celtic harpist" people are going to think you're a "Celtic" harpist, as opposed to someone who plays the Celtic harp... when in fact, you're originally from Canada, Western Canada, right? |
| LM: | Yes, from Manitoba. I grew up in a town about 80 miles out of Winnipeg, and became infatuated with Celtic music as a result of a folk club I belonged to in Winnipeg in the late seventies. But, it's true, it's interesting about the harp, you know, because I would say that I play it well enough to accompany myself singing, but I would consider myself more of a singer than a harpist... than, let's say, Elton John would consider himself more of a piano player as opposed to a singer. But, because it's such a unusual instrument and often associated with Celtic music it seems the term "harpist" appears frequently. |
| J: | Mmm-hmm... The current ensemble you have with you today, which is kind of a scaled down group, includes Hugh Marsh, who plays the violin, Brian Hughes... Brian co-produced one of your records, The Visit, right? |
| LM: | Yes, I've worked with Brian on my past three recordings, actually. |
| J: | He's here today with his electric guitar and his "allegedly acoustic" but also electrical sounding guitar... *laugh* and Rick Lazar, who plays percussion, and specifically today, the dumbeg, which is an Arabic jar drum. And how does that weave it's way into Canadian-Celtic music? |
| LM: | *laugh* Well, the root was buried when I was preparing music for The Visit. I learned that the Celts were much more than this mad collection of anarchists from Ireland, Scotland and Wales and so on. They were this vast collection of tribes that emanated from Middle and Eastern Europe as far back as 500 B.C. They migrated across Europe and one of these tribes ended up in Spain, the Galician part, the northeast corner which became then the departure point for the assemblage of the music for the mask and mirror. I looked into the period of Spanish history prior to the 15th century when there were three communities, three religious communities, the Christian, the Islamic (Moorish community) and the Jewish community. I felt in the mask and mirror I wanted to explore broader ideas besides just the Celtic repertoire... so that brought me into Morroco, the Middle East and then Spain, and thus... the dumbeg! |
| J: | I've actually heard it said, believe it or not, that Saint Patrick was born in Syria. Now, I have to say it was a Syrian person who said this... |
| LM: | Well, I suppose, anything is possible. When I was researching the mask and mirror, I was quite amazed at the amount, the degree of transportation, of people and travelling. | J: | Forced and unforced... |
| LM: | Forced and unforced, absolutely. |
| J: | Alright, well, why don't we hear some of the music. Actually, The Dark Night of the Soul is your music, but a very ancient text, right? |
| LM: | Yes, it's an adaptation of a poem by a Spanish mystic called Saint John of the Cross and he was very heavily influenced by another mystic of that period, Terese of Avila, who came from a Judaic background... and that heavily influenced his whole approach to that essence he would call God, which is a more direct communication. I've felt that the whole concept of mysticism was also very interesting in the exploration of religion and spirituality. |
| J: | Okay, and then we'll hear Between The Shadows, but I should also mention that in The Dark Night of the Soul you'll be at our piano, and then you'll move to your Celtic harp for Between The Shadows... which is an instrumental, you don't do many of those? |
| LM: | No... |
| J: | For obvious reasons, you have such a beautiful singing voice. |
| LM: | *laugh* I always feel that recording is an assemblage of pieces that frame one another and sometimes it's nice to not bombard people with lyrics all the time. |
| J: | Is Between The Shadows your own music? |
| LM: | Yes, it's a composition of mine that was created when I was ruminating on these Celtic tribes that spent alot of time spinning around the Mediterranean and possibly even to Persia. And so, my lighting designer actually came up with the title... |
| J: | Mmm-hmm? |
| LM: | "Between The Shadows" is something he works with every night of the concert... |
| J: | Alright, let's hear a pair of live performances here on New Sounds with Loreena McKennitt and musicians performing The Dark Night of the Soul and Between The Shadows. |
| [lovely music here] | |
| J: | We've just heard two live performances here in our studio on this edition of New Sounds, by Loreena McKennitt, playing the Celtic harp in the last piece, and prior to that playing our piano and singing. We began with The Dark Night of the Soul and then Between The Shadows with Brian Hughes playing the guitars and Rick Lazar playing percussion. And we should mention that Brian's guitar can and does sound like a synthesizer of sorts. |
| LM: | Yes, it is middied up to a synthesizer, well, it's a synthetic pad that these acoustic instruments rest into. Sometimes, I find it stark to have the instruments just by themselves. |
| J: | Now the Celtic harp, I'd always seen Celtic harps that were smaller than yours. |
| LM: | Well, this one wouldn't really classify as a Celtic harp. It's called a troubadour harp, made by a company in Chicago called Lyon & Healy. And the harp is really a harp that classical harpists learn to play on before they proceed to a classical harp. But, at the time I was looking for a harp, I was the proud owner of a 1978 Honda Civic, and that sort of dictated what size of harp I lugged around. At the end of the day, it's great because it has a wider range than a Celtic harp, particularily in the bottom end, which doesn't interfere with the range of my voice. And it's just portable, it weighs about 45 pounds. You can just manage it, whereas a full classical harp you have to get the movers in, between moving the Joneses and the Smiths, y'know. |
| J: | Yeah, and also the orchestral harp has a sound, with connontations which perhaps aren't what you were looking for. |
| LM: | No, the only thing I miss about a more classical harp is the pedal system whereby one can easily and quickly shift into other tunings. No, it has a very particular, sort-of-folk sound. |
| J: | Well, in addition to the live music we're hearing today, we have an opportunity to sample some of your most recent CD called the mask and mirror. And, in fact, the lead of track is called The Mystic's Dream. I guess this goes back to what you were talking about "vis-a-vis" St. John of the Cross and Terese of Avila. But, this is your own text as well as your own music, right? |
| LM: | Yes, yes it is. The way I approach a recording is to just infuse myself with historical notes, different cultural kinds of notes, and music. And then, as they say in theatre, throw away the book and create something from that. So this piece was created... um, a fusion of impressions and images, partially anchored in the Sufi world that I've just begun to explore, and the whole concept of mysticism, that you still feel in elements of Ireland and the whole Celtic culture. I remember, a year ago, just over a year ago, when I was in Ireland, I was working on this piece and I'd gone to a market on a Saturday morning... and I had seen this face... this stone face that had been overgrown with moss coming out from the wall, and it was very mystical in a sense. So, I wove that image with some of the more mystical elements from when I was in Morrocco a few years ago. I've been fascinated to learn what degree there are connections, alot with the conjecture of what those connections might be... but the fascinating thing about Irish music, particularily in the West coast, is that there is a musical ornamentation that you still hear remnants of or connections to, let's say, India or in Morrocco, that becomes... quite fascinating. |
| J: | Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned sort of immersing yourself in historical notes, because that's where you can very often find these stunning, surprising, connections... |
| LM: | Yes, yes... |
| J: | ...between peoples that you would not normally put together... |
| LM: | Well, I remember reading a bit on the Celts and how one of the earlier Celtic tribes, their funereal rites involved funeral pyres... and they were a head cult, they felt that the soul was embodied in the head, and that it became important in this funeral pyre that the skull exploded because it released the soul. And then, a few years ago, when Rajiv Gandhi was assasinated, I was reading a report in the Canadian newspaper, the Globe-Mail, where they were describing the whole funereal process and where... |
| J: | The same... |
| LM: | Yes, it was very, very interesting. Or that the Indians are very connected to cattle, now the Celts were also very strongly connected to cattle... alot of mythology associated with cattle. And, as well as their calendars... so there's all kind of things! |
| J: | All kinds of things! |
| LM: | *laugh* |
| J: | Now, let's hear The Mystic's Dream, this is from the mask and mirror from Loreena McKennitt, who is my guest on this edition of New Sounds. |
| [The Mystic's Dream is played] | |
| J: | We've just heard The Mystic's Dream, this is music from Loreena McKennitt, it comes from the CD the mask and mirror, which, Loreena, is your second CD for a major record label after doing... what, two, three on your own? Which in itself is a story... |
| LM: | Well, it is, I had been involved in musical theatre and theatre for a number of years, I had been playing in lounges, and then felt very uncomfortable about the unpredictability of that work situation. And I was curious to know if I could have a solo career, and it seemed important to have a recording, so I borrowed $10,000 from my family, which was alot of money for them, and armed with that and a book called How to Make Your Own Record went and made my own record in one week... which I'd love to be able to do now for $10,000! And gave the said allotment of cassettes to friends and family, had some left over, and took to playing at the Saint Lawrence Market on Saturday mornings in Toronto. And, then embarked upon several years of playing on the street and selling the cassettes, raising enough money to produce my second recording in 1987 and then my third in '89. And then starting to tour across Canada. As a result of that, the success of my third recording, I was approached by various major labels. |
| J: | Alright, Loreena McKennitt is here with me in our performance studio for this program. Musicians, Hugh Marsh on violin, Brian Hughes on guitar, and Rick Lazar on percussion are all patiently waiting for another turn to play for us, so in just a moment... we'll hear them and speak some more with Loreena. I'm John Schafer and you're listening to New Sounds. |
| ----Commercial break---- | |
| J: | This is the program New Sounds, 10:51 pm, we're in our performance studio with Canadian-based Celtic harpist and composer, Loreena McKennitt. Now, my understanding is that you won a couple of these Juno Awards, which Americans don't know what they are... but they're like Grammys, right? |
| LM: | Yes... |
| J: | In the "Roots and Traditional" category, right? |
| LM: | Yes... *laugh* |
| J: | The curious thing to me, here you are, a very contemporary musician... I mean, we've got the ensemble here, we've got Brian with his electric guitar, and we've got Rick sitting over there with his Arabic jar drum! I mean, Hugh Marsh with violin and you with the harp, alright... that, I can see as sort of "Roots" music, but it is just interesting to see the way people have approached your music. |
| LM: | It has been from this point of view, because it's been very, very difficult to say, "Well, what is it?" Is it folk? It's not entirely folk... is it World Music? Is it New Age? An actual fact, there's a fusion of many, many things going on, at the heart of it, there's a definitely a Celtic sound, but I've woven in these East Indian, Spanish, Morroccan kinds of elements and on top of that the musicians that I'm working with... they each have their own individual careers, that come from rock and jazz, and World Music, very experimental music, kinds of backgrounds, and then my own. I come from a classical and folk background. |
| J: | Is your family, are they recent Irish? Are they "wild geese", or from way, way back? |
| LM: | You really know your stuff there! My family came to Canada in about the 1830s. This was a decade prior to the famine immigration, and so my father was a livestock dealer. I come from many, many generations of livestock dealers, or drovers, I guess they're called. So, there wasn't alot of music around our house, our family was settled in Canada long enough to have shaken many of it's Celtic characteristics except that my father has the red hair that I have, so there was a bit of Celtic temperment about the house. Anarchistic and very volitile! *laugh* |
| J: | I know it all too well... *laugh* So, how has the reaction been, I guess, initially in the Celtic circles in Canada, and as you've broadened your horizons, in Ireland and Scotland? |
| LM: | It's been very supportive. I've had alot of trepidation because I've felt, well, particularily when we've gone to Ireland or England that it would be a bit like bringing snow to the Eskimos. But, I think that, you know, we've had alot of strong support from press... in Ireland particularily. And, I think that they feel that there are enough different things going on that I'm not really treading on the traditional toes. |
| J: | Right... I mean, you're clearly not trying to cover the same general ground as The Chieftans, or Planxty, or any of those... |
| LM: | Oh, no... and yet, I think there's still the heart of the Celtic sensability in the center of it. |
| J: | I know you're thought very highly of in Spain, where my colleague Ramone Tressett has presented you in concert a number of times. |
| LM: | Yes, yes... Ramone, he was very influential in breaking this project in Spain, as is PBS all over. It's been very critical to it's development. |
| J: | Well, let's hear some more live music, since we have the musicians here in the studio. And actually, we're going to hear The Bonny Swans and The Lady of Shalott. Now, the Bonny Swans, that's traditional right? Or at least the text... |
| LM: | The text is traditional. I think there's a Scots version of this song. It's a good example of the Celts' flight of fancy... where it doesn't really make alot of sense. There's the first verse that talks about these daughters and their father being a farmer... and then, later on, it's like "brought the harp to her father's hall" which is, now a king's court. But, it's the way the Celts didn't really make a distinction between this world and the next... and their own flight of imagination took reign. |
| J: | You'll be at our piano for The Bonny Swans and then the Celtic harp for The Lady Of Shalott which Rick will sit out. There's no percussion in that... that is a Tennyson poem? |
| LM: | Yes... The Visit, the recording prior to the mask and mirror, became an exploration of Celticness from different directions, and I felt that to have some representation of the Arthurian legends seemed appropriate... and I was also very drawn to some of the verses, particularily, actually, the one about the "Reapers reaping early" out in the countryside. So there's a real pastoral sensability about it that I connect to. |
| J: | Okay, live performances in our studio of The Bonny Swans and The Lady of Shalott, here on New Sounds. |
| [Live pieces played, but only the shortened version of TLoS] | |
| J: | We've just heard two more live performances here in our studio on New Sounds. That last piece is called The Lady of Shalott, text by Tennyson, music by Loreena McKennitt. Hugh Marsh is on the violin, Brian Hughes on the guitar and prior to that we heard The Bonny Swans which is Loreena's variation on an old Scottish, is it? |
| LM: | Well, there is a Scottish variation on it. But, this is more of an English one. |
| J: | Okay, Rick Lazar joining in that on percussion. Now, we've talked a little bit about using Tennyson, you've actually been drawn to a number of poets and texted sources over the years... and you seem to have an affinity for Shakespeare. You've done a couple of Shakespeare texts... |
| LM: | Yes... I suppose, it's not surprising in that I live in Stratfort, Ontario, worked at the Shakespeare theatre there for a number of years, and the point was very much driven home of how substantial Shakespeare's work is. In reflecting a variaton and depth of humanity. So, I find it's a wonderful pool to dip into from time to time as I try to express a point of view other than just my own point of view in the assemblage of material on a recording. I look to Shakespeare or I look to... I've also worked with the poetry of W.B. Yeats as well. In fact, in my first recording in 1985, I put a poem of his called The Stolen Child to music and part of the reason I've been drawn to Yeats is that his work seems to embody alot of that mythology of the Celts and folklore and spin it out in mystical, earthy kind of way. So, I've found a sympathetic soul. Some have accused me of working with the Dead Poets Society who can't defend themselves... *laugh* |
| J: | Well, it's worked out very nicely. The piece that we're going to hear next... I'll have to defer to you for the first half of the title. The Gaelic part. |
| LM: | I'll confess that I'm unable to pronounce it also... |
| J: | Okay, then we'll just use the English part of the title, which is The Two Trees. Now, this is from the mask and mirror which now, although it's a recent release, you must have done this close to a year ago or more at this point. |
| LM: | Well, we finished it in the studio last year on the first of March, and we've been touring ever since then. And, we'll probably continue touring until April. |
| J: | Wow... |
| LM: | It's quite exciting, because it doesn't really fit the commercial radio airplay format, the development occurs at a slower speed. But, it still is growing, so we're on a second wave of touring, in various places around the world. |
| J: | So, you really do tour for the better part of the year? It seems like it... |
| LM: | Yes... |
| J: | Wow... |
| LM: | Yes, it's the old "pack yer bags, send your dog to boarding school!" *laugh* |
| J: | Have you seen home recently? |
| LM: | Well, I'm actually flying home on Sunday for a day. |
| J: | Well, so this sort of obviates my next question, I was going to ask you if you've been back in the studio to do yet another record, but obviously there's been no time for that. |
| LM: | No, we're going to, the next one will, I think will be in some way connected to Italy. |
| J: | I'll be interested to see how you weave that one together.... |
| LM: | A little bit of Dante? *laugh* |
| J: | Great! Well, let's hear The Two Trees with lyrics by Yeats. There's some music by you and also some music by another source. |
| LM: | Yes, I have had the occasion to work with a piper who now lives in Boston, but had been living in Toronto, named Patrick Hutchinson. When we were working on The Two Trees, I said to Patrick it would be wonderful if he could come up with a piece that could proceed it to really set the Irish tone. So, this is, a compostition of his that I'm sorry I'm unable to pronounce. |
| J: | Okay, well, it's a long Gaelic title, it leads directly into The Two Trees and we'll hear it from the CD the mask and mirror. But, before we do, Loreena McKennitt, it's been a real pleasure meeting you and meeting the rest of the band today and hearing the music... |
| LM: | It's been a real pleasure being here, let me tell you. |
| J: | Thank you very much, best of luck with the ongoing touring and we'll look forward to seeing you again. |
| LM: | Thank you... |
| J: | Thank you. Here is Loreena McKennitt from the mask and mirror with The Two Trees |
| [The Two Trees, and the end of the show] |