| Author |
Subject |
Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
(4/4/01 5:17:08 pm)
Reply |
Insults?
Do you think that any teacher has
the right to insult or demean a student?
|
Laura
Wichers
Moderator
(4/4/01 5:23:12 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
No, not if it's on purpose. But
there are those whose dispositions are just naturally sarcastic, or
they have a dark sense of humor. Some of their comments might not be
taken the way they were intended.
Laura
|
Daniel
Ortbals 
Registered
User
(4/4/01 10:27:29 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Insults?
(I posted something else, but I've
sort of changed my mind)
The tricky thing here is that what
one person sees as 'poking fun,' another sees as demeaning. I agree
with Laura and Betsy that if the teacher INTENDS to insult the
student for no reason other than to insult them, then that is
crossing some sort of line.
Basically, for me, as long as the
teacher sticks to comments relative to music making, I say anything
goes (but that's just me). I'm one who sometimes enjoys the old "you
play like crap." Then I just say to myself, "hmmm, maybe I do. Oh
well." But I don't think that a teacher telling me that my sound is
ugly, or my vibrato is bad, or my bow arm is sloppy is insulting.
What would be insulting to me would be "you don't have an opinion
that matters," "I know more about any subject than you do," or "I
have nothing to learn from you." Things like that.
I guess
I'm curious what others define as insulting.
Dan O
Edited by: Daniel
Ortbals at: 4/4/01 10:27:29 pm
|
Betsy
C 
Registered
User
(4/4/01 7:33:08 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
I have tried to give this question
some thought because I fall into the category of knowing that I am
sensitive, so I might not be the best person to ask. I agreed with
the posts that it is good to choose your battles carefully, and that
developing a thicker skin could be potentially helpful. I still
think, however, that insulting a student or a teacher is
unwarranted. Criticism is another story. I go to lessons to learn,
and when I am in the position of student, I am there for the
expertise that the teacher has to give. I want the criticism,
actually, although my personality type doesn't really crave it. It's
the only way I'll learn. I am not talking about gratuitous comments
dripping with sarcasm; meant only to hurt or belittle. What I want
is real, constructive criticism from a teacher with a suggestion for
how to improve my shortcoming (s). Blatant insults for the sake of
supposed humor is not necessary, IMHO. Now, if the teacher and the
student are comfortable enough to jest and poke fun, that is
different. My teacher and I have traded good-natured barbs
occasionally, but I know that it's just us lightening up a lesson,
especially if we've both had a long day. Humor is an essential part
of my lesson- we both need it at times! Thankfully, the issue of
being insulted or demeaned in my lesson is moot; it does not happen.
I am fortunate in that respect. I guess I'd have to say that I DO
NOT think that any teacher has a right to demean a student. Good
question, Vic! I'd like to hear more opinions on this.
|
MaryK
Registered
User
(4/4/01 10:39:02 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
No more or less so than anyone
else.
MaryK
|
CordulaR
Registered User
(4/5/01 3:45:15 am)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
No more than other people.
I
feel that being a teacher I should be extra sensitive of how my
remarks come across. Of course I have to tell my students among
other things that they don't play perfectly (yet), but IMHO the
important part is to show them how to get there.
I know I have a
sarcastic way of putting things and I am glad that some of my
students can understand and enjoy that. But I have to take care not
to blast the other ones. Especially the introvert people who put on
a pokerface when they get hurt. I know how that feels, I've been
there.
It is sometimes difficult to speak to every student in his
personal way, especially at the end of a long tiring day, but it
makes my work much more rewarding and effective.
The
hamburger-selling approach: "this it what you want, take it!"
definitely doesn't work for me.
Cordula
and I was just
going to say no... 
|
Ponticello
Registered User
(4/5/01 4:42:22 am)
Reply |
Laughter hurts
I would say I'm a pretty sensitive
student. So much to the point where if I come into a lesson having
practiced my butt off for the week, and play my heart out through a
whole piece for my teacher and the first thing he says is bad, tears
sometimes well up in my eyes.
But I get over it quickly, and like
every student, I appreciate the criticism and know that I need it to
get better. And it drives me even further to work harder. So if I
were a teacher I would just use common sense as far as how harsh
insults should be, and ALWAYS ALWAYS start off with a compliment,
even if it is small, you should always congradulate the
positive.
Finally though, what I think is inappropriate in ANY
lesson is for a teacher to laugh at the student. I know laughter is
a sort of uncontrollable response, but I had a violin teacher (he
was a student) and he often laughed in the middle of my playing. And
one cello teacher I had last summer, when playing through a very
difficult high passage she giggled. Maybe I'm just weird, but ithink
teachers of any kind should do their best not to laugh, and if they
can't help it, try their best to hide it
|
JanJan2
Registered User
(4/5/01 7:25:49 am)
Reply |
No
Constructive/corrective criticism -
yes
Insults - no
It's that simple.
I've only had one
teacher (coached chamber music) who had a tendancy to insult. He
veiled it in humor, though. But he was insulting you nonetheless.
The last straw came when one night I arrived early and he was in the
middle of a private lesson, so I set up to practice in another room
in the church where we met. When his lesson was over, he came into
the room where I was practicing and said "Oh, it's you. I thought
someone was killing a cat in here." Needless to say, my heart wasn't
in it after that comment, and I left his merry little band shortly
after that. Since then I've found another chamber music coach who
knows how to teach and elicit the best from people.
Janet
|
Jon
Pegis
Registered
User
(4/5/01 9:24:53 am)
Reply |
Insults
Definitely not! Even if a student is
not prepared, there is no need to tear him/her down.
I admit it
is hard to define what is insulting and what is not. Everyone has a
different tolerance level, and I remember from my own student days
that I was sensitive to harsh remarks. I think it's better to build
people up while letting them know what areas they need to work on.
Jon Pegis
|
bridge
Registered User
(4/5/01 11:22:56 am)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
It's funny how the other thread
showed more tolerance for insults and this thread shows less. It's
like political polling. It all depends on how the question is
posed.
I think most people agree that criticism is good but
insults are bad. Many people even think that if constructive
criticism is embedded within in an insult, it's still somewhat OK.
It's the insults that have no intent but to belittle that seem to
get a thumbs down from almost everybody.
I like what MaryK
said. It seems that if there were two chemistry teachers, both
perfectly able to teach, but one was obnoxious and one wasn't, more
people would go with the nice one.
However, in the music
world, if someone has a lot of talent, or status, people seem to be
willing to put up with a lot more BS. It reminds me of spoiled pop
stars or actors/actresses (pro athletes, etc., etc.) that get to
behave in ways that mere mortals do not.
The example of Bobby
Knight comes to mind. If were a really good lawyer, or engineer or
whatever, most people would figure this guy just ain't worth it. But
he has a name, an aura. So throwing chairs and choking players is
OK.
|
sarah
schenkman
Registered User
(4/5/01 11:44:25 am)
Reply |
Re:
Insults?
I agree with Janet - constructive
criticism is okay, insulting is not.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(4/5/01 12:57:26 pm)
Reply
 |
Please
repeat the question?
I think what bridge says about how
you word a question is very true.
Vic asks:
Quote:
Do you think that any teacher has the right to insult or demean a
student?
My answer to this
specific question is no. In fact, NOBODY as a right to insult or
demean anyone. But the sad fact is that it happens and that's just
the way life is sometimes. Sometimes it's worth confronting and
sometimes it's not. Like our wise Sage of the CSO Gary Stucka says
"choose your battles" but choose wisely (the Knight guarding the
Holy Grail in "Indian Jones and the Last Crusade")
Paul Tseng
My Website
Alexander's website
Free Cello Music!
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