| Author |
Subject |
playingfavorites
Global
user
(6/15/00 11:40:47 pm)
Reply |
private
teaching vs faculty teaching
Occasionally I've let on to you that
I'm applying for college positions - cello chatters have helped me
alternately vent and celebrate highs and lows - finishing the DMA,
getting the first rejected applications, making a demo CD, getting
more rejections, getting ONE interview, and more, you guessed it,
rejected applications, and so forth. I'm soon to have a second real
live interview, complete with teaching demonstration, short
performance, and Q&A. But it's for a preparatory department, a
respected place but not a college level job.
You know Aesop's
fable of the fox jumping for the grapes, failing to reach them, and
declaring they were sour anyway so he didn't want them? This might
be happening to me. I have a nice studio at home with my husband
whose the great violinist and private teacher. We have more
inquiries about lessons than we can handle some times of the year.
We kind of "give it away" too much with regard to low rates and
generous lesson length, but we enjoy the autonomy and we're starting
to save money at a good rate and pay Uncle Sam and now recently we
have begun to be able to carry medical insurance on ourselves . . .
you get the picture.
Hubby is and will always be a Lone Ranger.
He has such talent for playing and teaching and educational
philosophy and orchestra conducting; a college would love him. But
he's the independent cuss. I'm more social and like more than he
does to perform and maybe I trust the system more, but I've always
admired the profession of teaching and hoped to honor that role
within a faculty, with colleagues and recitals and recruiting and
advising and the variety of hopefully more advanced and
self-directed students. If I take this job part time at this
conservatory, it might help towards the college path, stack the
resume, bring opportunities to perform and collaborate.
But it
doesn't feel right. I admit I undercharge my studio, but students at
this preparatory dept pay over twice the amount! Many will want 1/2
hr lessons, too; at those prices I worry I can't feel comfortable
even asking a young student how was their week, or school schedule
etc. I can't drop a student very easily, no matter how appropriate
the reasons, becuase they pay for a whole term with no refunds after
lesson one. Also, hubby and others eagerly warn me that gossip and
politics are part of the culture of faculties such as this one, and
about tenure nightmares ad administrative hassles and how false is
the prestige imbued by this famous old name, how this just exploits
me, etc etc etc.
I'd appreciate reflections from those of you
who have both enjoyed private studios and faculty membership . . .
and can tell me what you thought were the pros and cons of each.
Tell me how the grapes really tasted to you.
|
Bob
Local user
(6/16/00 6:59:37 am)
Reply |
Re:
private teaching vs faculty teaching
It doesn't sound to me like you've
got much to lose if you try the job for a year or two. You can
always quit if it's not working out the way you'd like. It will look
better on your resume than simply having a home studio, and if you
do well at it other institutions may hear of you and get interested.
But for God's sake, charge a fair rate for your private lessons! You
may lose a few students, but you'll gain precious time. Most of all
you'll cease perpetuating the public's idea that we do this simply
"because we love to." Music is a profession.
|
Bob
Blais
Global
user
(6/16/00 7:39:06 pm)
Reply |
Re:
private teaching vs faculty teaching
I found myself in a similar
situation as a private teacher. I was very flexible, charged very
little, didn't object whe people didin't show up and didn't pay me,
etc. In the last couple of years I've more than doubled my price,
made up a no refund for any reason policy, and kept strict track of
time in my lessons so I don't go over time so much. Result? More
students and much more money! I would say that I get a lot more
respect too. Nobody has quit!
Bob Blais
|
Matthew
Tifford
Global user
(6/17/00 11:07:32 pm)
Reply |
:-)
Jeez, I think I could have written
that post! I think this is a common problem. I did the exact same
thing you did, in fact I am now faced with rectifying the problem.
The truth is, if you charge too little you won't be respected.
You'll get people who will go with you because they don't want to
sink a lot of cash into some hobby their child may not stick with,
then when a student starts to take off the parents will thank you
for all of your hard work and then switch to a "better" (ie. more
expensive) teacher. They'll say you should feel proud to have
brought the student up to the level where this other teacher would
accept them as a student!
As for the Prep school. I'm
curious, it sounds like you might be interviewing for the school I
work for. If it's the Levine School in Washington, D.C., feel free
to e-mail me at
mtifford@yahoo.com
I'd be happy to talk to you
about it, it's a pretty nice place. :-)
|
Tom
Flaherty
Global
user
(6/18/00 12:21:15 am)
Reply |
Re:
private teaching vs faculty teaching
I'm with the rest of the gang: raise
your rates and take the college job if it's offered. As Bob says, if
you are unhappy with the job, you can quit next year. Meanwhile, you
might have some enjoyable interaction or performances with other
faculty in a nice hall. As for the ugly side of faculty politics,
the worst stuff is generally between the full-time folks, who get to
argue endlessly over the implications of catalog copy and its impact
on their view of the One True Curriculum. Part-time instrumental
teachers generally teach the students, play some concerts, and go
home.
On the other hand, if you are Not offered the job,
know that your Contribution to the Human Race is signficant and
direct. I teach full-time in a college; I am very happy with the
situation, but I do sometimes miss the directness of simply teaching
individual people how to play the cello. A surprisingly high
percentage of this kind of job is devoted to meta-teaching:
committee meetings, writing reports, discussing policy,
etc.
Good luck, and raise your rates either way!
|
mcello
Global user
(6/19/00 8:01:25 pm)
Reply |
Re:
private teaching vs faculty teaching
I'm sort of in your position, except
that I accepted an opportunity last year to teach with a prep
department, I was also worried about rates, etc., but I love it. I
have found that my students are more consistent with their lessons,
practice more, etc. I also like the convenience of not being in my
home, as some of my students were coming early, staying late. I'm
not a babysitter! It has worked so well for me, that I have decided
that all of my students will now go through the prep
department!
|
Ponticello
Global
user
(6/21/00 12:18:44 pm)
Reply |
on that
note
I realize I don't belong here, and
if anyone is upset that I put up this post, I apologize, but my
message didn't make it into cello chat. I know, finances are a very
touchy issue, but may I ask, HOW MUCH some of you charge your
students?
You're assuming that everyone HAS the money to pay
your high rates, but thats not the case. There are those of us, who
struggle to pay our bills, but don't want to give up our precious
music. I'm infuriated that some teachers wanted $100 or more for
their lessons.
I do not lose any respect for teachers who charge
low prices in any way, and I can't imagine many people would. I lose
respect for teachers who want to earn hourly wages that CEO's of
some companies make. I mean, $150/hr, is a salary most people would
KILL for. And I refuse to believe people who make that much don't
have jobs MORE suitable of that price than giving music lessons
<save show biz people>
I think some of you have the wrong
idea. If I felt I was being overcharged I would resent the teacher,
and I have actually turned several down because of their
prices.
In any event, this is how the economy works. I know of
very little "competition" between music teachers, so you all can
basically charge whatever you want because there will always be
people who want you to teach them bad enough to pay the high prices.
Which I think is kind of sad. In a capitalistic country we have
competition to keep prices of most things in check, but obviously
music lessons are exempt
|
Tom
Flaherty
Global
user
(6/21/00 1:49:50 pm)
Reply |
Re: on
that note
There IS competition among music
teachers, and there are many points to compare, hourly rates being
only one consideration. What kind of success has the teacher had, as
evidenced by the activities of current and former students? How well
suited is the teacher for a particular student's technical or
musical level, for the students personality or level of commitment
to learning the instrument? Within a mile of where I sit in a small
town outside Los Angeles are six cello teachers who I know of, all
of whom have their own unique strengths. Attentive students (or
parents) investigate all six possibilities, and gravitate towards
whomever best suits them.
As for rates, I certainly am not
in favor of gouging music students. After all, the future of music
depends upon a listening public with at least some musical
awareness, and lessons on an instrument are probably the best way to
acquire that, whether or not people stick with it all their
lives.
I just think that teachers should be able to make a
living. Call a plumber or an electrician. They certainly receive and
deserve a decent hourly rate, but few of them have put in the years
of dedicated time, effort, and sacrifice that a typical good
instrumental teacher has. And compare the cost of the tools of the
trade, especially for string teachers. The level of education that
many cello teachers have achieved is comparable to that of lawyers,
to whom the fees you mention would seem paltry. (A typical lawyer's
rate is virtually unheard of in music teaching.)
I can't
quote current rates to you, as I am not teaching privately now, but
the last I checked the highest rates around here were typically
around 50% higher than the lowest, and not in triple digits. Only a
small number of teachers in Los Angeles were charging over $100 an
hour, Most of them made much more than that as performers, and were
best suited for students at a near professional level
themselves.
|
Ponticello
Global
user
(6/21/00 3:39:37 pm)
Reply |
true
you raise some very strong points.
It's true, cello teachers DO need to make a living. They DO have to
pay bills and rent, and for food, etc. But you compare them to
electricians and plumbers who charge fixed hourly rates, without
really concerning themselves with "art" or whatever. But there is a
major difference.
With those scenarios, it's very much black or
white. Did the plumber fix the leak, yes or no? Did the elctrician
get the lights to turn on, yes or no? There's clear cut tasks that
the job entails. Music lessons are SO much different. As students,
we place all our trust that you will guide us and teach us, as well
as you teach anyone else. How do we know that you're not putting
more effort into teaching another student? It's such a slippery
slope because there's not a precise way we can gauge whether we are
getting our money's worth.
I have an excellent teacher at school
<I go to an ivy league college> but I don't take lessons
through the school, I just pay him directly. He charges $45
<actually he raised the price to $50 but let me stay at $45 since
it's weird to raise the price on a student you already have>.
What a surprise I was in for when I got home and tried to look for a
cello teacher who charged that much! HA! not to mention, the cost of
living in both locations is not very different.
It is especially
the comments by BOB BLAIS that kind of disgust me and make me think
that he doesn't really enjoy teaching,, he just does it for the
money, and he will do what he has to to squeeze as much money out of
his students as possible.
While I know musicians often don't get
the credit they deserve, on the other hand, that kind of mentality
is very disturbing
|
Tom
Flaherty
Global
user
(6/22/00 12:45:49 am)
Reply |
Re:
true
Ponticello, I don't know Bob Blais,
but nothing he has said seems disgusting to me. It is impossible to
make a living, or to even feel anything less than continually
abused, without some version of the kind of policies that he
mentioned. Sure, we love the art of music, we love playing it, we
love sharing it with students, we love to see students blossom with
understanding and skill. We all do, and those sentiments are central
to our professional choices. But landlords and grocery store and gas
station owners don't take such feelings into account in running
their businesses. In this society there are certain financial
obligations that must be met regardless of artistic interests, and
if half your students suddenly, with no warning, decide that a
soccer game is more important than a cello lesson, none of the
above-mentioned folks are likely to feel they owe you a discount. A
fully scheduled day or even week of work can evaporate with no
notice. Believe me, this has happened to most teachers at one time
or other. I don't know Bob's rates, but if he doubled them without
losing any students, then clearly he was
undercharging.
Remember, the basic purpose of this board is
to discuss professional issues. Just because a poster doesn't speak
of enthusiasm, reverence, and respect for the art of music or
teaching in a particular message is no reason to assume he
doesn't.
|
PatWhite
Global user
(6/22/00 8:28:35 am)
Reply |
Re:
true
Dear Ponticello,
We don't have to
defend ourselves to you, and you truly can't understand until you
grow up some. You are interloping on a board that was designed
specifically so that professionals could talk amongst themselves
about issues that concern them. It is really none of your business
what rates we charge. There are too many variables to make a
comparison valid.
When you say you can't compare business to
music because music is an art, I find that quite a puerile comment.
Those of us who have chosen to make music our business cannot be
expected to give ourselves away in the name of art.
Finally,
your attack on Bob Blais is completely unwarranted. I don't know how
long you have been around on Cello Chat, but Bob typically posts
excellent and helpful information on teaching that makes it obvious
he is a caring and conscientious teacher. Since our thread was
dealing specifically with issues of respect/finance, his answer
dealt specificaly with those issues. Should he have written a couple
of paragraphs on how deeply moved he is at the miracle of teaching,
and would he then have gained your respect?
He gained mine with
his post, because I have struggled with the issues he mentioned for
years now. I typically undercharge to the point where I am told by
parents and other teachers that I need to raise my rates. It has
taken me 11 years to gain the financial stability needed to buy a
house. Would you respect me more if I decided I didn't need the
'necessities' of life if it meant I would have to charge a decent
living wage for my services? I think each of us is responsible for
ourselves. I don't expect you to be around helping me when I am 60,
70, 80 years old and am no longer able to freelance or teach. I am
going to have to have some savings, some investments, some
insurance, and a roof over my head. If at this age (37), I am not
earning enough to put me on track for my future, I am going to have
to ask more for my services, without a second thought about living
purely for my art.
Patricia White
|
Ponticello
Global
user
(6/22/00 11:11:39 am)
Reply |
To
PatWhite
I am young <22> and I DO need
to grow up some more I admit that. I also admit that you are
correct, it might not be my business to discuss what you charge. But
discussing this issue without putting actual numbers to it is
futile. I wouldn't think that the prices you charge for music
lessons would be such personal information. Especially since you
claim it is on a par with other service industries, I can't imagine
that an attorney or a plumber would have objections to saying
publicly what their rates are. I have already stated what prices I
think are ludicrous. Once again, I simply think that $100-200 is too
much and insulting.
I think Pat White is somewhat bitter about
her situation and directing it toward me. You do not have to defend
yourself to me. But it's interesting how instead of saying what the
numbers are you personally attack me. I NEVER said music teachers
should give out their services for free. Like I said music teachers
have to pay bills. But it's interesting how it's difficult for any
of you to admit that the reverse could happen. Music teachers get
greedy, and begin to charge excessive prices because they know that
parents will pay it. Just because that scenario is so unlike yours
it's denial to have this blanket sympathy for all cello teachers and
believe that that all either undercharge or else charge fair
prices.
As far as BoB Blais comments go:
"In the last couple
of years I've more than doubled my price....More students and much
more money!"
Those comments seem to be indicative of greed.
Lastly, while you say you shouldn't have to "sacrifice
yourselves to art" and complain that you are being underpaid. You
CHOSE to study music and I would bet anything it wasn't for money. I
would love to play music my whole life but I want to make a nice
living so I'm in investment banking. But admit that you chose music
because you have a passion for it, and having a job you're
passionate about reaps its own awards that most careers do not. How
many music teachers pull their hair out and consider suicide from
the stresses of their jobs, which goes on a lot here at my job. Do
you work 15 hour days? With hours of commuting? I doubt it, but you
want to be paid as much as us? Doesn't make sense
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OyOy
Global user
(6/22/00 2:17:37 pm)
Reply |
To
Mr./Ms. Ponticello
The discussion you have started and
continued, as Pat White pointed out, is more appropriate for the
general board; this board is for professionals to discuss topics of
mutual interest amongst themselves. To facilitate this, I've posted
my own reply on this thread out on the general board and hopefully
you and other interested parties will continue it there.
Edited by OyOy at:
6/22/00 2:17:37
pm
| |
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