| Author |
Subject |
Stefan79
Registered User
(8/5/00 5:39:26 pm)
Reply |
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Just a little question about
fingerings...
Measures 79 & 83, do you play that on the D
string to prepare for the high notes in the next measure? When I was
practicing the other night I found it to be a lot easier to do the
passage on the D string than to play it all on the A string as I've
done before...
Then there's the double stops in meas 126-129,
someone told me think of the left hand as a jumping frog when I
played that... Well, I
just can't do it, I hit the top note, but you just can't hear the
ones between the lowest and the highest double stop. Maybe this is
just a matter of practicing slowly...?
In the second
movement, meas. 39...why can't I just stretch and play that octave
with my 1st and 3rd finger?! I get so frustrated because I can't do
it...what's the trick?? Do you relax your fingers really much or
what? It's not that I don't reach, I do, but I just don't know how
to relax my fingers...
The last movement, meas. 99-103, I'm
not sure that's the correct numbers, but it's that long run up to
the high C. Does anyone have a good fingering for that run? I've
tried to work something out, but I'm out of ideas...
Then I have
some intonation problems in the 4 last measures...how do I play this
in tune?? I've been playing this over and over again...really slow,
with piano...it just doesn't help...maybe I'm just not good
enough...too bad...if it all comes down to the last four measures...
Any
help would be appreciated!
And Paul, you were right, it does
feel a lot more easy when you haven't played it for a while! I feel
as if I have been learning lots and lots of technique...
-
Stefan
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zambocello
Registered User
(8/5/00 6:42:49 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Proko Op 125 is one of my very
favorites. I've never had a chance to play it with orchestra, but I
have spent a lot of time on it. On some of those passages it's just
choose your poison.
The passages at 79 and 83 -- I go to the
A string on the B flat above harmonic A each time.
The runs
in 6ths -- slow paractice is all I know to say. Jumping frog is a
cute idea, but your frog better not jump to high when in tempo.
Measure off the whole step shifts so they become automatic and give
your attention to the two 1/2 steps.
The octaves in the 2nd
movement -- Have you tried 4th finger for the high E flat? For me
it's better. Plus I have to let go of the thumb E flat to reach
securely.
The run up to the high C is a booger! There's no
way to make it safer by crossing strings that I know of. Here is
Laszlo Varga's fingering, which I use, beginning 7 measures before
the high C: 0,1,4,0,1,1 / 4,1,2,0,1,4 / 2,1,3(or 4),4,1,1 /
4,1,2,1,2,1 / 2,1,2,3,1,2 / 3,1,2,3,1,2 / 3,2,1,2,1,2 / 3 . That
looks like a mess as an e mail. Hope it makes sense as a cello
fingering. What can I say? Practice slowly and make small 1/2
steps.
Last 4 measures -- This part of the cello is so
unfamiliar. It seems like that passage should be easy to learn. It's
just 4 notes repeated over and over. But allow yourself some slow
practice time to hear the pitches and especially to feel the hand
position and the intervals. Think a big major third and small minor
third, just as you do with whole steps and 1/2 steps down in more
civilised positions.
Good luck and enjoy working on such a
great piece. There sure are none harder.
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff 
Administrator
(8/5/00 11:14:51 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Hi Stefan,
I agree with
Zambocello for m. 79 and 83 (first movement)
For the parallel
6ths, think of it as "left hand stacatto" similar to an upbow or
downbow staccato. Just stay relaxed and don't fake it with a
glissando (as I've heard some recorded cellists try). The tendency
is to rush, don't. See how evenly you can play it such that every
note is heard and in tune. Practice very slowly with a start and
stop motion in the left hand/arm. Remember, RELAX!
IN the
second movement, the double octaves on Eb - you can:
1. Use
thumb-1 (on the lower octave) and 1-3 (on the upper octave). The 1st
finger is a pivot point and stays down for the whole passage. You
lift the thumb and place the 3rd finger down when you play the upper
octave and lift the 3rd and place the thumb down when you play the
lower octave. Both times, the first finger remains.
2. Use
thumb-1 (or 2) for the lower octave and 1(or2)-4 for the upper
octave. You hold all the fingers down for the entire passage. I find
that my fingers tend to slip out of tune for this fingering so I
chose the first method. But it is conceivalbe to do it this way.
Good old Russian 4th finger use in thumb postion. Try practicing
Popper 28!
For the last movement MM. 99-103. This run is
actually not that hard. Just realize that the accidentals all are
neighbor tones to the tonic and dominant triads (C and G major). So
if you are aware of which notes in those triads they neighbor, you
will have better aim. (eg. F# to G, D# to E, etc.)
For the
last 4 measures... You can just see how Slava must have introduced
Popper's Elfentanz to Prokofiev when the composer asked him to show
him some virtuoso cello works while writing the op.
125!
They'll be easier to play in tune if you get the perfct
intervals right first. The perfect 4th (B to E) is the first
meolodic interval. If that is out of tune then ther rest of the
passage is doomed. Also, your hand frames an octave between B and a
B one octave higher) Make sure that 8va is in tune too! The notes
are pretty close together. I'd practice Elfentanz if I were
you!
Stefan, please email me if you'd like some furhter
information. This work and all the other cello works for Prkfv were
the topic of my Doctoral dissertation. I have some further info you
might find interesting!
Best wishes!
Paul Tseng, Cello Chat Administrator
Today's Quote
My Website
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The San Diego Cello Society
|
Stefan79
Registered User
(8/6/00 4:36:47 am)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
I was practicing it yesterday
and I realized that I do a totally weird fingering in meas. 188-192
- I play it all on the A string...and I don't even use the thumb...  Why make it
harder than it already is?! Well, I think that this is probably a
very good way to get an even tone over the whole passage, but it
sure is much harder than crossing the strings... I'll try some other
fingerings to see if I want to do anything else...but now that I've
been learning the hard fingering, why not play it?
The
fingerings for 79 & 83 where just great!! Thanks!
I did some
intonation work on the last four measures last night and now I've
realized that it's just one of those places that I'll have to work
really hard on...most music come very naturally to me and I usually
don't have to practice it much, but then there's a group of passages
that it takes ages for me to learn. *sigh*
Thanks for the
info!
- Stefan
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Stefan79
Registered User
(8/6/00 4:49:21 am)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Hi Paul,
You were right
about the "left hand stacatto", it's much easier if you just relax
the hand, why haven't I thought of that...?!
I'd better practice
Elfentanz then... I haven't
thought of it that way but when you mention it I can see the
similarities.
I'd love to know more about Prokofieff and
especially the Op 125!
- Stefan
|
CelloFreak
Registered User
(8/8/00 10:00:16 am)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Just out of curiousity, does anyone
do the triplets in the third movement (Just before rehearsal #13. I
don't have measure numbers!) other than spiccato?
Eric
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Stefan79
Registered User
(8/8/00 3:21:01 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Do you mean the 8th note
triplets in five before #13 (in 3/4)? Or is it the place with the
fast 16th note triplets in 6/4 time? (Rehersal numbers can vary
between different editions)
Well, I don't play the 8th note
triplets spiccato, because in my edition (Boosey & Hawkes) it
only says spiccato on the triplets in six, four and one before #13.
The fast triplets however are not supposed to be spiccato, but I
wanted to get something light between all those 16th notes before
and after. I belive that Rostropovich does them spiccato too...not
sure about it though...
- Stefan
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(8/8/00 3:31:04 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Is this the passage right before the
artificial harmonics?
If so, I think the first 3 triplet
notes are done ricochet and then a very bouncy spiccato after that.
It's just the characteristic of the music.
What are the other
choices? detache, staccato, portato? You can play a passage with any
bow stroke you want, but you have to ask yourself why.
Paul Tseng, Cello Chat Administrator
Today's Quote
My Website
MP3!
The San Diego Cello Society
|
CelloFreak
Registered User
(8/10/00 9:48:05 am)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Yes, you are both right. The passage
before the artificial harmonics, about five before 13. Sorry, I
could've been a LOT more descriptive. I was asking because my record
of Rostropovich is the ONLY recording I have heard of the piece
(except for a few bars of Mr. Tseng's recording). So I was just
wondering if anyone did it differently, out of curiousity. Thanks
for your responses!
Eric
|
Stefan79
Registered User
(8/10/00 11:30:10 am)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Hi Eric!
I don't do the
triplets staccato, I want to get a contrast between the triplets
that are alone and followed by 4ths and the three triplets
together...
I'm not saying I play them legato, but I try not to
bounce with the bow when I play them. They should be short but not
staccato.
I've been listening to a couple of recordings I have
and both Truls Mork (Virgin Classics, City of Birmingham Symphony
Orch, Paavo Järvi No. 5 45282 2) and Alexander Rudin (Naxos,
National Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine, Theodoire Kuchar, No.
8.553624) play the three triplets quite short and bouncing.
As
Mr. Tseng pointed out, that's the character of the music...they
should be short and quick. But I want to be able to get that light
feeling without the bouncing bow. You should probably listen to Mr.
Tseng...I'm just a student and I don't have his experience as a
cellist and interpret.
It's very hard to explain things like this
over the Internet...
It's a great piece...
-
Stefan
|
Paul
Tseng ICS Staff
Administrator
(8/10/00 11:51:44 am)
Reply
|
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Stefan,
Thanks for your
confidence. But I don't think anyone should just "listen to Mr.
Tseng" or anyone else for that matter just because we say so or give
our reasons.
I think you should do what makes sense to you.
Try many different variations on for size. Let the music guide your
discovery. Look not only at the cello part, but the ochestral
texture as well. Look at how the motives are developed. Find how it
makes sense to you. You may play it one way this time and another
next time. But just don't do anything that destroys the chararcter
of the music as you FIRMLY believe it to be.
If you are going
to do something RADICALLY different, you should be VERY convinced
and really believe in it. Otherwise, how can your listener be
convinced? If you just want to do something like this just for the
sake of being different, people will see right through it and think
that you don't know what you are doing.
That's why I say you
must think about what you are doing with all your mind, and play it
with all your heart.
Paul Tseng, Cello Chat Administrator
Today's Quote
My Website
MP3!
The San Diego Cello Society
|
Stefan79
Registered User
(8/10/00 1:06:21 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Prokofieff, Op. 125
Thanks Paul, that's a really
inspiring post!
When I
played the Schostakovich Concerto #1 and did some glissandi here and
there, my teacher said "Well, if I were you, I'd play it that way in
a concert and not in an audition". Maybe it's like that, if you go
to a concert and hear that piece you have heard a million times(like
the Haydn C) and the person who's playing it does something new and
really different you may think "That's pretty cool" But on the
other hand, if you play it that way in an audition situation, the
people listening to you might think that you haven't read the music
or something...
You're totally right by the way,one should never
do anything that different unless one is very convinced and belive
in it.
Oh...dinner's ready...talk to you later!
-
Stefan
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