| Author |
Subject |
galois00
Registered User
(2/15/01 9:15:36 pm)
Reply |
Viola
da gamba?
Just out of curiosity, does anyone
also play the viola da gamba? I went to a concert last week and
found it really interesting. Beautiful music and an intimate
setting; I was no more than 12 feet from one of the two performers.
It was interesting to see the different bow, the underhand bow grip,
the carved head (instead of a scroll) and how the instrument is
held. One of the performers talked about the instrument and said
that the bowing is "opposite" from bowing the cello--i.e., that up
bow is stronger than down bow with the underhand grip. The players
seem to work around the frets as much as on them. The sound is much
different from a cello, though I'd be hard-pressed to describe it.
If you have a chance to hear a gamba concert, give it a try!
Edited by: galois00
at: 2/15/01 9:15:36 pm
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 12:33:16 am)
Reply |
Re:
Viola da gamba?
Check the main board -- I seem to
recall Zambocello has been dabbling in gamba. Having hung around
early music performances over the last twenty years, I've probably
heard more gamba than cello. If I live long enough to get any good
at cello, I might take a whack at the gamba. I might at least get
better intonation with frets!  Six
strings tuned in fourths except a third in the middle -- might take
some getting used to!
There are some really neat (well, to my
ears  ) pieces for
consorts of viols (the instruments commonly come in several sizes
from treble down to bass) -- interesting sonorities.
Marin
Marais 17th C(?) French composer was probably the ultimate VdeG
exponent. There's some nifty JS Bach pieces for harpsichord and VdeG
also. Look for recordings with Jordi Savall to hear some amazing
playing.
Dave
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(2/16/01 8:02:42 am)
Reply |
FRETS
I was just thinking about this the
other day. Do you think the sound of the viola da gamba is different
mostly because of the frets? I have heard people say they wish the
cello had frets, but I think the sound would change much because of
the frets. Instead of producing a tone directly off the wood of the
finger board, it would then be off a nickel fret. My guess is the
sound would be considerably more bright, and
guitar-like!
Len
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 8:13:23 am)
Reply |
Re:
FRETS
Actually, I don't think frets
account for the sound differences. The most active part of the
string-to-sound path is the bridge. The frets are gut tied around
the neck (at least those I've seen close up.) I think the sound
differences are more due to gut strings at low tension and different
proportions in the body of the instrument. They have a flat back,
among other differences, too.
Uh -- but then, I've been
wrong once or twice 
Dave
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/16/01 9:17:45 am)
Reply |
bowing
Is the bowing like the bass bows? I
used to really like those bass bows that you hold different (isn't
it the German style?). Hmmm, maybe I should try to get one for my
cello as an experiment. I much preferred it since you could get a
nice big sound on the up bows and it just felt less awkward all
around, expecially for orchestra music, plus you could "hang" the
bow on your hand when doing pizz -- important when playing pittband
or swing on the bass!
Jane
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 12:36:12 pm)
Reply |
Re:
bowing
Well, I know nothing about basses or
bowing them but toward the bottom of Jonathan Dunford's web page
there is an animated GIF file of him bowing a viola da
gamba.
www.continuo.com/dunford/jonathan2.htm
(Also
a 101K .au sound file you may or may not be equipped
for.)
It's basically a thumb up, underhanded grip.
I
have an old bookmark for the Viola da Gamba Society of America, but
it doesn't seem to be connecting for me at this moment. There's
probably more on-line info around somewhere.
Dave
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/16/01 2:31:05 pm)
Reply |
nope,
not the same
the german bow has a really long
frog and you actually put your hand in it.
see this link:
users.lvcm.com/mariani/ba...tml#german
It's
a great hold for lots of power. I always liked
it!
Jane
|
bridge
Registered
User
(2/16/01 3:14:46 pm)
Reply |
Effect
of Frets on Sound
I am not an expert. However, I do
know that there is a noticable difference between an electric bass
guitar and a FRETLESS electric bass guitar. The fretless has a much
"warmer" sound.
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 4:48:55 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Effect of Frets on Sound
Well, I'm no expert either -- but I
love to speculate!
What
electric instruments I've seen don't really appear to rely on
acoustic properties for their sound; e.g, solid bodies, pickups on
the bridge, etc. (I am sure there are many variations
though.)
The acoustic instrument has a number of resonant or
filtering structures -- bridge, tailpiece, body cavity. I would
expect the effects of something like frets to be a much smaller
percentage of the total sound spectrum shaping. And as I mentioned
earlier, the VdaG frets are gut. I would expect gut to have material
properties closer to fingers and wood than the nickel alloys used on
guitars and the like.
Call it "intuitive engineering
analysis" or maybe just "crazy."
I guess one could tie some
steel florist's wire around the neck of a cello (don't use your
Strad or Gofriller!) and try it out. (Someday I'm snowed
in....)
Dave
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(2/16/01 8:19:02 pm)
Reply |
FRETTING!
I am an expert (ex= has been, spirt=
a drip under presure), but I think the bridge and the body, while
abviously adding much in shaping the sound, are more of amplifiers.
The string is making the actual sound. Therefore, if it begins it's
vibration on a peice of metal rather than wood, I beleive the tone
will be very much different, No?.
Len
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 9:50:55 pm)
Reply |
Nah --
Don't Fret!
Eeeeemaybe-yes; maybe-no (he said,
taking a giant step farther out on the thin ice ... ).
If I
remembered any of the courses I took far too long ago maybe I could
_really_ get into it. But I think to say the bridge and body are
amplifying is an understandable but over-simplified description.
We're talking about a system of coupled resonators here, driven by a
forcing function -- the bow. The string is a high Q resonator which
provides some frequency stability for a given length. But it is
rather tightly coupled to the bridge, which can actually have
frequency limiting/filtering effects due to it's intricate cutouts.
The body, due to its crazy shape tends to be a much lower Q (less
frequency sensitive) resonator.
Bill Lee of W. Harris Lee
showed me an example of a bridge before and after "cutting" at a
cello festival last fall. There was a surprising amount of material
removed. It's a lot more than just fitting the feet to the top. He
assured me that cutting is carefully done to achieve some
optimization in sound. Then there's the "Helmholz" frequency which
is the resonance of the air cavity inside the body. There's the "tap
frequency" of the top and bottom plates, staggered slightly,
according to some sources. (This might be akin to the tuning of IF
strips in TV and radio receivers where a slight stagger of two
resonators results in a wider, flatter "top" to the frerquency
response curve.) Lower frequencies are distributed over a wider area
of the top by the bass bar. The bridge/soundpost structure creates a
sort of rotational vibrator. There's already been some discussion on
one of these boards about the length of the fingerboard with its
cantilevered overhang being able to tune certain characteristics.
Then there's the tailpiece / tail length tunings discussed in some
wolf note threads ...
See where I'm headed here !!! (You do?
Geeze, I'm not sure I do!)
In short, these things are so dang
complicated nobody can figure 'em out.
If you've not done so,
you might enjoy prowling thru the Catgut Acoustical Society
website.
uta.marymt.edu/~cas/
Carleen
Hutchins has spent many years on analysis of how and why the violin
family does what it does.
The other point I was making in an
earlier post was that gambas (and also lutes) typically do not have
metal frets. They are tied on loops of gut like the strings are made
of. I would assume the Young's modulus (I think that's the mystery
constant I want) of gut frets would be more like that of a calloused
finger or ebony fingerboard.
Now that I can feel the icy
water engulfing my feet (accompanied by crackling sounds)
...
Still rambling (maybe thinking...) out loud -- after all
that pseudo-scientific blather above, it's probably not a question
of wood or metal. It's an issue of fingers! I'm not a guitar player
(some will, with traces of legitimacy, say I'm not a cello or
harpsichord player either  ) But
perhaps how we finger strings might actually account for the most
noticeable effects. If you place the finger "behind"a fret, the
speaking length of the string is stopped by
wood/gut/metal/ivory/whatever. I'm thinking that's how guitarists
play (but I'm not sure why I think I know that!)
If you play
without frets, the string is stopped by a relatively mushy wad of
flesh (AKA "finger"). I even think I vaguely remember some
discussion that gambists tend to finger on or over, as opposed to
behind, the fret. Partly to permit vibrato action. The "warmth" of
fretless guitars or basses is probably mostly due to the junction of
flesh and string in that last fraction of an inch of speaking
length. That causes a damping of upper partials for a less strident
tone.
Firsthand knowledge ...
The "buff stop" on my
harpsichord consists of little quarter inch squares of felt. One
edge is glued to a moveable beechwood batten in a way that allows a
vertical edge of each felt square to contact the side of each string
when the batten is pushed to one position. That little teeny tiny
felt contact about a centimeter from the bridge is enough to
radically alter the upper partials. The sound goes from the full
jangle (scientific term) of harpsichord sound to something more like
a lute. In fact it's sometimes referred to as a lute stop. What it
basically does is seriously damp the nodes that would support 7th,
9th, etc. harmonics.
Well, thanks for making me tease what's
left of my mind with this -- think I'll go get these cold wet socks
off
.
Dave
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(2/16/01 10:43:30 pm)
Reply |
"HEAD
IS SPINNING"
OK,OK, I get it. Yikes!! You sure
teased my mind with all that! Good of you to explain though. Seeing
how the frets are gut and not metal, you probably have proved your
point out, and then some. If they were metal, I would probably have
to say, "show me". As far as playing with the finger close behind
the fret: with guitar I was taught that there is better contact with
the fret being played like that, and also that the note can be
slightly flat if played well behind the fret, although I never
notice. Like the cello, some positions on the guitar fret board
inhibit you from having all your fingers placed just so. Dave, your
a good sport for putting up with all my inquisitiveness!
Thanks!
Len
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/17/01 12:08:17 pm)
Reply |
Re:
Effect of Frets on Sound
OK, when I had to play electric bass
in high school I tried both fretted and frettless -- many of them.
BIG difference to me! I opted for a frettless because the sound
reminded me much more of the stand-up bass. I didn't like the sound
of the fretted instruments at all.
Just my
opinion,
Jane
|
TerryM
Registered
User
(2/17/01 12:59:16 pm)
Reply |
Expressive Intonation not possible with frets
When frets are present the stopped
pitch is constant, unlike the unfretted string instruments.
Expressive intonation is not possible in such a setup and when
playing fretted instruments with other unfretted instruments the
whole piece can sound a bit more "out of tune" as well. This is why
you need to re-tune a guitar when you play in certain keys. However
I don't think a guitar or other fretted instruments are really ever
"in tune."
This is one of the things that makes string
quartets so unique in their sound. All players can adjust their
intonation to each other to suit the music and the key. Adjustments
must even be made for the cello as the C and D strings have to be
sharpened slightly to be in tune with violins. The lower you go in
frequency the more adjustments have to be made in tuning. Also,
playing with a piano requires that the strings adjust their
intonation to the tempered tuning of the piano and this is can be
difficult at first. The whole area of relative pitch can get quite
complicated in ensemble playing.
The viola da gamba is best
played in ensembles or consorts. That is when I feel they sound
best. There is probably a better matching of the tuning of the
various instruments of the consort. They have such a quiet and
intimate sound...quite enjoyable when played
well.
Terry
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/17/01 1:09:53 pm)
Reply |
and
speaking of which announcements...
Friend and teacher, Maxine Neuman,
will be playing Viola da Gamba, Cello, Vielle and recorders with her
group, Breve Early Music Ensemble, this very evening (2/17) at 8 pm
at St. Paula United Methodist Church in Nyack, NY. $10. South
Broadway and Divsion Ave. Ensemble members: Maxine, Morris Newman
and Deborah Booth playing recorders, flutes, rankett,
bassoon.
The program will be repeated for free at noon next
Thursday at St. Paula Chapel at Columbia U. 116th St between
Braodway and Amsterdam Aves.
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/18/01 6:55:47 am)
Reply |
Re: Nah
-- Don't Fret!
Well, Dave - it took a few cups of
java for me to get next to this one. I'm going to add this simple
quote from Maxine's little speech on the gamba last night during the
concert. It made sense and it probably has everything to do with
what you were saying here but in an extremely over simplified way.
When she showed the audience the gamba, explaining the frets and the
characteristics of the viols she said: The frets make all the
strings open strings as the string is stopped with a fret and not a
finger.
Ah-ha! I said to myself, I shall tell Dave and Len
this. Perhaps it's just an analogy for what you've already said but
since we play these fretless instruments we realize the difference.
And, for those of you who are interested in early music -
try to catch Breve. Dave, they play in Princeton sometimes, I
believe. It's a living museum experience; all three people play what
Maxine refers to as 'the zoo'. They sit there with recorders,
flutes, things that look like coffe grinders or opium pipes, her
gamba, vielle, and cello all lined up on the floor.
I'll try
to find out if Breve has a web site and post it.
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/18/01 11:13:34 am)
Reply |
Breve
By the time I got to the end of that
previous post, I wasn't sure what I was saying either
Anyway, Breve sounds interesting. I have to admit I have
trouble getting to things half as far away, but let me know if you
hear of a Princeton event.
We are trying to do more this
year, after seven years of insanity. But first we have to catch up
on what didn't get done here at the ranch during that
period.
We do have tickets to the Philly Orchestra with
Isserlis next Saturday, in case you want to know when the next major
snowstorm will blanket the east coast.
Dave
|
zambocello
Registered User
(2/20/01 2:14:55 am)
Reply |
I know,
I'm trespassing..........
..........(since I fool people into
giving me money for sawing on my cello) but there weren't many new
posts on the main board so while snooping around I noticed this
thread. And, being a "gambist by night" I thought I could slip by
here. 
Dorie
got it right. Frets do effect the sound in that every note is
stopped "hard" like the open strings. This must also be part of the
difference Bridge noticed between the fretted and fretless
bass.
Pitch is variable though, even with frets. The pitch
can be affected by the weight of the finger and the finger's
proximity to the fret. Indeed, one of the traditional ornaments from
Marais' time was the two-finger vibrato, which was executed as a
trill, with both fingers playing behind the same fret. Also, even
with frets, vibrato affects the sound. Plus, there is the issue of
having the frets in the right place! It might seem more convenient
to have fixed frets as on the guitar, but moveable frets allow for
subtle but desireable intonation adjustments when one goes from a
piece in sharps to one in flats.
A gamba's bridge is bigger
than the cello's (to accomodate 6 strings) but I think that plays
only a small part in tonal differences. Gut strings also play a
part, but the biggest variable is the tension on the instrument. Not
only do the gut strings create less tension but the neck is set at a
lower angle to the top of the instrument, creating less weight on
the gamba belly. The top need not be carved for strength and the
bass bar is smaller. So while gambas don't play with as bright and
loud a tone as the cello, the gamba often has more after-ring and a
lighter/sweeter/softer/reedier tone. (The ever increasing tension
thing goes back way before cellos. Renaissance viols had even less
tension; little enough they had no sound post!)
The gamba bow
grip does make the up bow the strong stroke. To me there are two
reasons for this. First is that holding the bow "underhand" brings
the elbow closer to the body so that the up bow is the PULLED
stroke, while on cello the down bow is the pulled stroke. And for
most of us, pulling is stronger than pushing. Second is that the bow
hair is less tensed and the bow grip makes impossible starting the
down bow at the frog (because the gamba bow grip includes having 1
or 2 fingers on the hair a few inches or more from the frog) so that
down bows start in a soft part of the hair while up bows can begin
at the tip where the hair gives more resistance for the
attack.
THERE. More than you wanted to know! Thus ends
Zambo's gumbo lecture............
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/20/01 4:12:12 am)
Reply |
Trespassing..........
This kind of trespassing is ok with
me.
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/20/01 4:14:05 am)
Reply |
Breve
web site
I have one and it just plain don't
work. I'll try to get a schedule from Maxine.
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/20/01 11:36:52 am)
Reply |
Gambist
By Night Board
Ah Oh! A new board has been born . .
.
Jane
|
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