| Author |
Subject |
Eric
Registered User
(2/15/01 12:55:15 pm)
Reply |
High 3,
high 3, is it good for me?
Got a question for you
guys.
My teacher continually stresses than in whatever
position I play in I should always have my third finger sharper than
usual, and in some cases right up against 4. I didn't totally grasp
the reason, something about it sounding better because 3 is usually
the leading tone(or something like that)...
Anyways, has
anyone else heard of this?
Eric
Edited by: Eric
at: 2/15/01 12:55:15 pm
|
ruthann
Registered User
(2/15/01 12:28:41 pm)
Reply |
Re:
High 3, high 3, is it good for me?
Well, sure, in certain keys. But I
suspect that you, like many people, have trouble getting the proper
amount of separation between your second and third fingers. It is a
physical thing - some people's hands make that separation more
difficult. I have one student who has problems in this area. I tell
her to practice the "vulcan salute" to help stretch those muscles or
tendons or whatever.
As far as the leading tone thing, that
is one of my "things." If you are playing in the key of G, that F#
ought to be really, really close to the G. That helps define the
tonic. This is true of any leading tone (ti, 7th) - it should be
really close to the tonic (do). And when one is modulating, one
should bump those leading tones close to the tonic of the key you
are modulating to.
Here's a simple minded example. Suppose
you are playing a Bach minuet whose first section is in, and in fact
the key signature is G. In the second section there is a restatement
of the theme from the first section, except it is played a fifth
higher with the C# given as an accidental. We would say that the
music has modulated to the key of D, even though the key signature
doesn't change. In the first (G) section, it is important to play
your F#s high, to establish your key of G. In the second section, it
is important to play the C# high to establish the key of D. During
that second section (in D) you would not want to play your F#s as
high as in the first section - because it is no longer the leading
tone.
Are we all confused yet?
Try playing scales
with that leading tone close to the tonic, and then with the leading
tone a little lower. Which one gives your ear a better sense of key?
Someone on this board not too long ago was talking about playing
scales with a piano. It made me cringe, because the piano can't give
you that high leading tone. But there are certainly worse ways to
start learning scales. But I think you'll find that by identifying
the leading tones in your music and playing them high, your piece
will sound better.
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
|
Victor
Sazer
Registered
User
(2/15/01 3:19:45 pm)
Reply |
High 3,
high 3, is it good for me?
Half steps are the most frequently
out of tune notes played on the cello. This is because all half
steps are not created equal. The half tone between the 7th and the
octave and between the 3rd and 4th degree of a major scale are
smaller than just dividing whole tones in half.
The simplest
solution to playing these notes in tune is to release your hand as
you play each note, rather than always keeping your fingers spread
apart, in what some consider a “cello position”. Keeping your
fingers stretched apart, not only makes it more difficult to play in
tune but it generates tension and limits your natural elasticity.
If you imagine holding a rubber band between your first
finger and thumb of each hand; then repeatedly alternate stretching
and releasing it, you would describe it as being elastic. If you
stop the process when the rubber band is even partially stretched,
it is no longer elastic; it is tense. This is similar to the way
your hand works. A released hand maintains its elasticity while one
that is continually stretched inhibits it.
It is a good idea
to release your hand as much as possible as you play each note. You
can open your hand between notes, as needed to reach the next note
(allowing your arm to move as you go from note to note). Except when
you are playing double stops or chords, there is no reason to have
more than one finger down at a time. Think of how you walk; you only
have one foot down at a time.
|
Eric
Registered User
(2/15/01 9:11:55 pm)
Reply |
Thanks!
Thank you both. You're comments
are very helpful! :)
Eric
|
CordulaR
Registered User
(2/16/01 6:18:41 am)
Reply |
vulcan
salute?
hi Ruthann,
what is the vulcan
salute? I thought I was an educated Star Trek fan, but this beats
me.
Anything is welcome to strengthen those muscles or whatever
needs to be strengthened (this cannot be a real word, but I don't
know a better one)
I have a pupil who is so used to playing with
a too low 3rd finger that she really thinks it is out of tune, the
way I like her to play it. Well, it shows that she does play at
home...
Cordula
|
TerryM
Registered
User
(2/16/01 6:59:31 am)
Reply |
Question about the Vulcan Salute
First, to answer Cordula's question,
the Vulcan salute is the hand held forward with the fingers spread
between the second and third fingers, but with both the 1st and 2nd
held together and the 3rd and 4th fingers held together. Now for the
question:
Can everyone do this? There is no way that I can.
Any attempt to spread the fingers at the center of my hands leaves
my 4th finger spread away from the 3rd. It is my belief that some
people cannot do this salute because of this problem. What are your
thoughts?
Does this mean that such people have less
independence and control over these fingers?
Terry
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(2/16/01 7:49:55 am)
Reply |
Live
long & prosper
Alas, I also can not do the Vulcan
salute. And yes, some people are "strung" much tighter in these
tendons than others!
Len
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/16/01 9:23:50 am)
Reply |
trick
to the vulcan salute
Oh comeon -- where are all the
treckies hiding? Oh, I forgot, this is the CELLO board, not a
computer board
Ok, to get the vulcan salute, hold your
hand out like you are saying hello, all fingers together. Then
slowly move your thumb (strengh in the thumb), index and middle
finger AWAY from the others -- let the thumb pull the other fingers
away. It will be difficult at first, but it gets easier with
practice. If you try to move the other fingers towards the pinkie,
it won't work without letting the thumb move as well, it will never
work. Trust me. It also helps to flex the hand into a little arch as
you move the fingers.
Best,
Jane
|
JanJan2
Registered User
(2/16/01 9:50:08 am)
Reply |
Am I
really a Vulcan?
Strange, but I have absolutely no
problem doing this Vulcan salute thing . . . and I'm not even a
Trekkie.
Now the Girl Scout salute, that's a whole nother
story! I never could hold my pinkie down with my thumb, and my
middle 2 fingers all want to curl into the palm. It ends up looking
like a pitchers secret for throwing a curve ball or something.
Janet
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ruthann
Registered User
(2/16/01 10:27:01 am)
Reply |
Re:
High 3, high 3, is it good for me?
Don't we have some doctors or
physiologists or something on this board who can explain to us why
some of us have no problem with this and others do? I am fortunate
in having pretty big hands (and feet!) and this separation between
2nd and 3rd fingers is not a problem for me. But I know that some
people really do have trouble. Victor's solution makes perfect sense
for those who have trouble/tension making the stretch. Whatever it
takes, play those leading tones high!!!
cello_suttonr@hotmail.com
|
Eric
Registered User
(2/16/01 11:35:55 am)
Reply |
Re:
High 3, high 3, is it good for me?
I can do the vulcan salute with
no problems, but here's where it gets a little trickier. Try doing
it with your fingers bent. I guarantee it's much harder, and that's
what you have to do when you
play.
>sigh<
Eric
|
jekerry
Registered User
(2/16/01 12:21:06 pm)
Reply |
another
way to get the position right
Just was thinking, one thing I
practice all the time to make sure I have the right distance between
fingers is playing in 2nd position where on the D string 3rd finger
is on G and forth finger is on G#. So you play A string, G#, G (with
open G to check intonation), then F# with 2nd. Then try A - G# - F#,
then play the two Gs together to see if it is still right. It seems
to help me -- particularly when practicing those pesky extended
positions -- going from E to F# to G# (how do you know they are in
tune? Check the 3rd finger with open G!). I find I can't leave my
1st finger behind (small hands) and still have the 2nd, 3rd and 4th
finger all be in tune. I've got to release the 1st. So play 1st
finger, extend to f# with 2nd finger, then release 1st finger, check
3rd finger with open G and play G#, then play A and see if that is
really a half step. Do enough of those and you'll get the feel of
it. Of course the problem is as you move up the positions, the
distances between your fingers need to get smaller! And on cheaper
cellos (I've been told, but never had the joy of proving, that
better cellos don't have this problem) as you go from string to
string the fingers may be in slight different places (4th is NOT
straight across from D to A!). Sigh. Intonation is such a problem.
Do they have sign language for cellos?
Jane
|
Patricia2
Registered User
(2/16/01 3:35:50 pm)
Reply |
Thanks
everyone, really helpful
I never understood how a G flat was
different from an F#
(as a former - in childhood - piano student,
all I visualize is a keyboard; but NOW I get it!)
and, Vic,
what you're describing is exactly how my teacher has described it -
releasing the tension, etc -
and something I'm always trying to
keep in mind, not to reach with my fingers but to move my arm and
keep a loose flow (? huh? you both say it better than I!)
Edited by: Patricia2
at: 2/16/01 3:35:50
pm
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