| Author |
Subject |
Tim
Janof
Administrator
(2/14/01 12:45:52 pm)
Reply |
From
"The Oregonian" ...
I'm not sure how I feel about this,
but at least a cellist is in the news:
"SALEM -- A
15-year-old cello player is expected to be the lead witness Thursday
at a Senate hearing on legislation that would allow students to take
music instead of a foreign language to satisfy the requirements of
Oregon's school reform law."
Edited by: Tim
Janof at: 2/14/01 12:45:52 pm
|
sarah
schenkman
Registered User
(2/14/01 1:26:26 pm)
Reply |
Re:
From "The Oregonian" ...
It shouldn't be instead of but in
addition to.
|
MaryK
Registered
User
(2/14/01 3:27:14 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
From "The Oregonian" ...
Hmm, interesting idea. I'm kinda
w/Sarah on this one but, all I can say is, I still play cello, but
rarely try to speak German...
MaryK
|
zambocello
Registered User
(2/14/01 4:40:36 pm)
Reply |
music
and other languages
Excellent point about using music
more than foreign languages! (Does Spanish still count as a
*foreign* language? If I had known in high school that I would spend
my adult life in SoTex and SoCal I would have studies Spanish rather
than German.)
|
Len
Thompson
Registered User
(2/15/01 5:21:44 pm)
Reply |
MUSIC
AS A LANGUAGE
In terms of enrichment, IMHO, I
think music has it hands down. So, if your not being enriched in
your learning process, then it's just "cold" facts! While the world
is becoming increasingly more multi-lingual, I personally would be
enriched much more from a program of music, than one of foreign
language. I think it's a viable alternative!
Len
|
Bobbie
Registered
User
(2/15/01 7:26:17 pm)
Reply |
Re:
From "The Oregonian" ...
While I think music and foreign
languages are both worthwhile pursuits, I doubt they use the same
parts of the brain. I wonder whether a lot of the value of a
well-rounded education is not in the development of more of one's
brain? We have omitted music and foreign languages in many schools,
and, in a seemingly unrelated problem, we are complaining that
students aren't learning the three Rs. Maybe what is happening is
that we aren't doing a very good job of developing young minds.
Maybe, to be a good mathematician, a child needs to spend time
exercising her brain in the arts and in languages and who knows what
else. I look at my colleagues in the chemistry department and I
don't see a group of people who know only science. All of us studied
foreign languages, a majority of us studied music, and most of us
have a diversity of interests. Maybe that is part of what makes
someone capable of being good in one area of study.
I'm just speculating, but I think, rather than
substitute music for languages, we ought to require both.
|
Dorie
Straus 
Moderator
(2/16/01 6:26:40 am)
Reply |
The
NewJersian...
All I can yack about is here in NJ.
We have core curriculum standards covering all areas of study - I've
talked about this here before. Each department, say, has a list of
standards; visual and performing arts has six standards. All public
schools are required to provide classes which give students some
background, understanding, opportunity to produce products or
performances in visual art, theater, music, dance, and spacial
design. Actually, because of the addition of dance, phys ed teachers
here can get a 'dance certificate' added to their
credentials.
As for language, the old concept of teaching
foreign languages in high school is out. After age 12 it's difficult
for most people to learn a second language. NJ now requires a second
language to be taught from first grade. Since NJ ranks 3rd (I think)
in the country for non-English speaking immigrants, communities
where there is a high population of non-English speakers - English
is considered the second language and their native tongue is taught
in pull out classes so children can continue to read and write this
language as English takes over. My school is Portuguese speaking,
with a fair amount of kids from Spanish speaking countries in South
America. Most of the kids are already bilingual. There is a world
language program so kids who speak Portuguese and English can learn
Spanish.
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/16/01 7:22:11 am)
Reply |
ps,
Bobbie
Reading written music does use some
of the same brain matter as written language since we learn that
written symbols have meaning for us and the symbols have specific
meaning.
|
Bobbie
Registered
User
(2/16/01 10:52:33 am)
Reply |
Re: The
NewJersian...
The question is, Dorie, do the
students in your schools do better in math and science and things
like that now that they are required to learn all these things?
Here's another question: does learning a language after 12 use the
brain in the same way as learning it at a young age does? I think it
probably does, considering how much more difficult it is to do.
Maybe instead of throwing out the things that are difficult we
should be keeping them in. What about music? Studies have shown that
older people who keep learning keep more of their mental acuity.
Maybe one reason is that it keeps different parts of the brain in
gear?
|
DWThomas
Registered User
(2/16/01 1:04:19 pm)
Reply |
Re: The
NewJersian...
This language/brain thing
purportedly relates to changes in the brain with age.
Long
ago (and I wish I had a copy of the article) I read an article on
brain development. The general idea was that up until about age ten
or so, the left and right sides of the brain are tightly coupled by
bundles of neurons (? phone wires... whatever) and that
pattern-related learning was easily programmed in. That any
information that goes to one side later in life was easily
accessible to the other. At that age of ten or so, the connection
begins to undergo some isolation due to physiological changes in
that coupling. The process takes several years, but by 16 or 17, it
becomes extremely difficult to learn another language without a
residual accent. (You can still learn the language, but not be able
to slip by as a native.) The article also claimed further changes
and development up into the mid-twenties.
The article was
particularly aimed at music instruction in early childhood as I
recall. I would think the symbols of music and even "pitch memory"
are essentially right-brain, pattern oriented effects.
There
has long been a more-than-coincidental correlation between musicians
and computer programming also. I've sometimes heard that attributed
more to personality traits -- attention to detail, discipline,
"close" is not good enough, etc., rather than left/right brain
characteristics.
"Patterns is patterns." 
Dave
(New Jersian from 1944 - 1967 
)
Edited by: DWThomas
at: 2/16/01 1:04:19 pm
|
MsCheryl
.gif)
Registered User
(2/16/01 2:32:14 pm)
Reply |
Re: The
NewJersian...
As a fellow New Jersian, I have to
put in my two cents here. It has always been my contention that the
more you know, the better off you are, and people who try not to
learn things with the "when will I ever need this.." argument
infuriate me. In college people would argue that we should not have
to take English courses and be required to write essays, etc.
"because, as musicians, when will we ever need that". I can't tell
you the amount of writing I have had to do in my professional life -
from bios to press releases, to letters and applications. That is
just one example, but it applies to all knowledge. What if this
young person does become a professional musician and finds work
abroad - wouldn't it benefit him to have some kind of understanding
of a foreign language. It is actually my theory that children should
learn Latin (not Latin American!) at a young age - because then
other languages become easier because of the Latin roots. But that's
a whole different argument. New Jersey does seem to have a good
education system going here, especially since adding performing arts
activities to the core curriculum.
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/16/01 6:58:58 pm)
Reply |
Do kids
do better?
I think I'm trying to answer Bobbie
but I don't know where this is going to land. The reason for this
need to put back art, music, etc. is due to a real decline in grades
in other subjects when the arts were considered superfluous and
dropped with budget cuts. These standards have only been in place
for about five years with some districts struggling to add faculty
and facilities. We scraped this subject lightly on the other board a
few weeks ago but the current thinking on this relates to the theory
of multi-intelligences.
The arts apply and reinforce other
subjects. For instance if I design an art project which must have a
1/2" border, a Haiku about how the change of seasons effects
students personally, an illustration of the Haiku, then executed
with crayon and watercolor resist method they are applying things
they are learning in class: math/measurements, poetry/traditional
Asian art, illustration/books/publishing, science: properties of the
materials they use, change of seasons, etc. Think of what can be
done with a piece of music and what other intelligences are required
to learn it/perform it. For the next few weeks my older kids are
designing their own currency; a special series of US currency
depicting historical African Americans. We've discussed global
economy, exchange rates, design/illustration, counterfit money, what
currency must have on it; the life, times and events in the
historical figure they are using for their bills, etc. This one is
huge. They are so into it, too - I've brought in foreign money,
they're bringing in foreign money to show me - we're getting maps
out. It's turning out to be a terrific project.
I teach in an
inner city system but in the most stable of the neighborhoods in
Newark and in a relatively good school. These kids are up against a
lot of life but they are pretty close score-wize to surrounding
suburban districts in Essex County.
And, who was that -
Dave? about accents. I always understood that accents are harder to
get rid of as one gets older because the muscles required to make
the sounds necessary for your primary language (in the cheeks,
tongue, etc.) become very strong with use and the ones that are not
used atrophy. Basically, to really rid yourself of an accent you
have to exercise your face, specific muscles for certain
sounds.
I had to clean this up - too distracted before when I
was writing it.
Edited by: Dorie
Straus at: 2/16/01 6:58:58 pm
|
Laura
Wichers
Moderator
(2/16/01 5:07:07 pm)
Reply |
Re:
brain function
You'll have to give me a few days to
find the source, but I read a few years ago about how learning a
skill at age 40 does not use the same pathways as learning the same
skill at age 10. The gist of the article was that, as we grow older,
it becomes more difficult to form new neural pathways, although it
is possible. This is why it is usually easier for your kids to adapt
to a new culture or learn a new language.
Laura
|
sarah
schenkman
Registered User
(2/16/01 6:30:05 pm)
Reply |
Re:
brain function
Right Laura - I think it was Noam
Chomskey actually had a term for this - "language acquisition
device" - or something like that, which children are supposed to
have but lose by the age of about 17. Why it is so much easier for
children to learn languages and accents.
|
Corrina
Connor
Moderator
(2/17/01 10:43:25 pm)
Reply |
Sarah's
right - both are necesary
If one decides to become a 'serious'
musician, and if that entails studying in Europe, another language
is essential. I don't think that we English speakers should
arrogantly think that because Europeans can speak English, we don't
need to bother to speak their language.
Having said that,
high school is really too old to begin a new language. But for some
reason state primary schools in English speaking countries (UK, USA,
Australia, NZ) don't feel it is necesary. And with the way things
are going (i.e. kids arriving at high school not knowing how to read
properly) maybe learning *English* should be a first
priority.
I'm sure if they taught 'conversational' foreign
language the problem would be solved though. I am all in favour of
the 'Suzuki approach' to language
At
the Menuhin School, French is, I believe, compulsory, from the
beginning. (I know somebody who goes there!). One can add another
language later on.
Having said all that, personally I feel
that music IS more important but
if they teach music to make a person more enriched, I think that
another language would be beneficial.
IMHO Latin and German
should be compulsory, and taught from day 1 (at school!) . The Latin
would be a base for French, Italian and Spanish, and the German for
those other languages. By the time the child enters high school,
they could quite easily extend their repertoire to French
etc.
Ah, plans!
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/18/01 5:40:52 am)
Reply |
Corrina
Your post bugs me a bit Corrina
since it implies that western language and culture is somehow more
correct and necessary. This world is shrinking rapidly. Why should
we continue to pretend that the other half of the world doesn't
exist? My daughter's cushy suburban elementary school teaches
Mandarin from first grade. There is one Chinese family in her school
and they speak Cantonese; this is not a neighborhood thing. There
was a long debate before this program began several years ago, the
facts and figures overwhelmingly supported the program. It has been
so successful that when kids from her school move on to 5th grade in
middle school they can continue with Mandarin, add another language:
French, German, Spanish or Italian. The kids who took Mandarin from
1st through 4th grade pick up the 3rd language quickly in spite of
the fact they took a non-western language earlier.
|
ollec
Registered
User
(2/18/01 7:28:22 am)
Reply |
Re:
From "The Oregonian" ...
It bugs me that this kid wants to
take cello INSTEAD of foreign language. Music and language are not
equivalent and therefore not interchangable. It's like asking to
have playing cello meet a physical education requirement.
I
take two languages, Russian and Latin, in addition to playing cello.
I have, in my lifetime, been exposed to French, Spanish, and Czech
as well. Doing both is, in my opinion totally managable. I don't
really know the details though. Maybe he has a very good reason for
not taking both.
|
Laura
Wichers
Moderator
(2/18/01 10:07:31 am)
Reply |
Re:
Corrina and Dorie
I agree with Dorie. Non-Western
languages are just as valuable, if not more so in some fields, than
Western languages. China and Japan, for instance, have/have had big
holds in the economy... someone has to do the translating. I took
Japanese for four years in high school, and high school age is
definitely not "too old" to begin studying a new language. Japanese
was an excellent choice for me, as I am a very visual learner.
Having to learn how to recognize, comprehend, and write new
characters made learning the language easier for me and more
enjoyable.
"I don't think that we English speakers should
arrogantly think that because Europeans can speak English, we don't
need to bother to speak their language."
I do not think it
arrogant to not want to learn a European language. At this point in
time, have you realized that English is considered the Universal
Language? Take the Internet for example. The vast majority of sites
are in English, or have the option to be viewed in English. Am I
arrogant to be writing this post in English when we have non-native
speakers present on the board? Nihongo o hanashimasu ka? Anata wa
sennou desu ka?
"IMHO Latin and German should be compulsory,
and taught from day 1 (at school!). The Latin would be a base for
French, Italian and Spanish, and the German for those other
languages. By the time the child enters high school, they could
quite easily extend their repertoire to French etc."
Latin,
while useful and providing a somewhat good background for other
languages, is a dead language. Having spoken to language teachers
about this last year, many agree that learning any Romance language
will provide a good enough background for learning another, as the
grammar/syntax are very similar. I find it interesting that you say
German would be a base for "those other languages." What languages
would those be? Eastern European languages such as Turkish or
Hungarian have very little in common with German. Middle Eastern
languages such as Arabic and Asian languages such as Japanese or
Korean have next to no similarity, they even have separate writing
systems. To assume these languages are not necessary is just as
arrogant as to assume learning French, German, etc is not necessary.
Also, in America, particularly the southwestern states, Spanish is
spoken by many people. As has been previously mentioned in this
thread, Spanish would be a good choice for a foreign language by
those living in that region.
When you discuss global issues,
it is a good idea to THINK globally.
Laura
Edited by: Laura
Wichers at: 2/18/01 10:07:31 am
|
Aaronm
Registered User
(2/18/01 2:59:55 pm)
Reply |
My two
cents (or maybe only one...)
Hai, nihongo wo
hanashimasu.
I both play music and attempt speak three
foreign languages (Spanish, German, some Japanese) and I can even
speak English on occasion. =P
I went to a well-endowed school
in Arizona where both programs existed. I left AZ in 8th grade so I
can't speak for language instruction, as we didn't have Spanish
immersion yet (if we did, I would've done it), but in my humble
opinion, both need to be taught, possibly required.
But in my
mind, they both address different parts of a liberal education. You
can't have one replace the other, it doesn't seem logical in my
mind.
One great thing about learning a foreign language is
that it helps you with English - to see a language that you know
nothing about introduced in a systematic manner helps you see
English in a systematic manner, and theoretically can help you
communicate in BOTH languages. I don't see how music helps in this
regard, frankly. ;(
Although I love the idea of all people
having to learn music, I do know people whose musical sense is so
poor that they don't even realize that what they just played
could've broken my glasses, had I been closer to the instrument.
(I'm thinking of piano at the moment but that could apply to any
instrument). Maybe "strongly recommended" are the words we
need?
Aaron Michael M
|
Dorie
Straus
Moderator
(2/18/01 3:59:51 pm)
Reply |
Aaron
I don't think the goal is that
everyone reads music - plays an instrument, speaks another language
fluently, paints like Picasso, etc. What has been missing from some
education programs has been presenting students with options,
experience, and giving them a well-rounded education, rich in the
arts and humanities. Used to be called 'liberal ed' - don't know
what it's called now.
As an art teacher I know that most,
make that 'almost all', of the kids I service will not become
artists but I can guarentee that when they leave my school they will
have some understanding and appreciation of art making, they will
have experimented with materials, they'll have some knowledge of the
history of art and it's place in many cultures of the world.
Just as an aside. In NJ a couple decades ago, elementary
teachers had to be proficient on the piano because music was
expected to be a regular part of everyone's day. There were pianos
in classrooms like there are computers now.
Edited by: Dorie
Straus at: 2/18/01 3:59:51 pm
|
MsCheryl
Registered User
(2/18/01 4:13:04 pm)
Reply |
Latin
is not dead!
Actually, you see it all the time -
and not just as state mottoes and on coins. It is there in many of
the words you speak and as the base for all the Romance languages.
My point about studying Latin from an early age is that it is a very
logical and structured language, and because it is the base for many
other languages, it eases the transition to understanding them. Both
of my children have taken Latin and several of my students as well.
It seems they all find learning other languages easier than their
friends and they have done quite well on the verbal SAT's, in large
part because they understand the derivations of many of the
vocabulary words. Of course, like anything, it has to be taught
well....
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