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-Evidence
references of quotes- April/22/1977
Bombay India [1 month before 5/28 conversation] Ref
#2- the 5/28 conversation- Satsvarupa: By the votes of the
present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future,
particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know
how first and second initiation would be conducted. Prabhupada:
They're his disciple. July
9th letter Recently when all of the GBC members were with His
Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would
appoint some of His senior disciples to act as
"ritvik-representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing
initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine
Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that
capacity: In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these REPRESENTATIVES, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book. 1.
HH BV Puri Maharaja recollected a conversation (memories#26) Where Srila
Prabhupada declared to him that He had appointed 11 Ritviks. HH
BV Puri Majaraja said,"You should have appointed only one.....when You are gone,
they will not be satisfied as Ritviks, and will declare themselves as
"regular" Gurus, and they will fight.".....Srila
Prabhupada replied..."What can I do....IT IS UP TO KRISHNA!" 2.
I went to India in 97' and by chance had a conversation with an other
devotee that told me he was there, in the room with Srila Prabhupada and
Tamal-Krsna as the explanations of this order [ritviks for the future]
were give by Srila Prabhupada himself to Tamal. It was related to me
that neither did Tamal understand, nor would he accept, this adjustment
made by the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada. The devotees name is
Bhaktisiddhanta dasa, the artist that lives in Vrndavan. Bhakti also
told me that he felt that Prabhupada wanted him to be as a witness to
the conversations between Prabhupada and Tamal for the future. In 98' I
returned to India and again had a follow up conversation with
Bhaktisiddhanta and persuaded him to tell his story at the IRG/IRM
meeting at Danuka-asrama in Vrndavan. This friend of mine was the last
bit of evidence that I needed to completely accept that the ritvik order
is indeed valid. So that leap of faith may have to be the testimony of
an honest devotee that was there, because there is admittedly a lack of
verbal conformation from Srila Prabhupada himself in the form of tape
recordings. There are very few tapes from that time, conspicuous by
their absence. Your servant, Caturbahu Dasa Bhakti 3. The documented evidence of the diary of Yasodanandana das, with its original entries made directly after conversations with TKG. This diary quotes the secretary to say, (after departure) "they’ll be ritviks, its all on tape." 4. Another diary entry records how Gauridas Pandit das heard Srila Prabhupada say, "Tomorrow I will I will announce some ritvik acharyas who will initiate disciples on my behalf when I leave the planet." 5. Some of the original 11 gurus have said that Srila Prabhupada ordered ritviks only, and for the future. Tamal Krishna Gosvami confessed this, see ref#7. And Hamsadutta told a room full of devotees, "I'm sorry I did this to you. Srila Prabhupada didn't order me to be a guru, he only made me an officiating priest." Also devotees tell that Ramesvara and Kirtanananda both said they were ordered ritvik only.
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* * * Ref #5 Qualifications to be diksa guru BG lecture - BG 17.1-3 Hon 6/4/1974
5a- “First offense is guror avajïä, defying the authority
of guru. This is the first offense. So one who is offensive,
how he can make advance in chanting? He cannot make. Then
everything is finished in the beginning. Guror avajïä.
Everything is there. If one is disobeying the spiritual master,
he cannot remain in the pure status of life. He cannot be
siksä-guru or anything else. He is finished, immediately.
Guror avajïä sruti-sästra-nindanam, nämno baläd yasya hi...
You do not study all these things. You become initiated.
There are ten kinds of offenses. Do you have any regard
for these things or not? You must avoid these ten kinds
of offenses. The first offense is to disobey the orders
of guru. That is first offense. So if you are offensive,
how you can become advanced by chanting? That is also
not possible.”
Ref#5b- Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ORDERED by his guru. That's all. Otherwise NOBODY can become guru.(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) (Emph.added) "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual
master coming in the disciplic succession, who is
authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This
is called diksa-vidhana."
(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)
Ref#5c- Qualifications to be Diksa Guru-
Different descriptions of guru given by Srila Prabhupada. This list shows a temporary liberated status of guru, as opposed to the permanent liberated status of the full diksa acharya, who is ordered to be guru by his guru.
1. The Guru to show the path-
Patha-pradarsaka-guru means "the guru, or the spiritual master, who shows the way." Such a guru is sometimes called siksa-guru.=> SB 4.12.32
2. Father is Guru of children-
"But you must make your children immortal. That is the injunction. You have become guru." > Bhagavad-gita 2.15 -- London, August 21, 1973
3. Simply speak of Krsna and you are guru-
"This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. He says, "You become a spiritual master." "How? I have no qualification." "No. You just accept my order?" "So what is your order, sir?" Yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You simply speak the instruction of Krsna whoever you meet. Then you become a spiritual master." > Bhagavad-gita 4.15 -- Bombay, April 4, 1974
4. Anyone who knows Krsna is Guru-
"Anyone who knows Krsna, he can become guru, not others. So that is the statement of the sastras." > Bhagavad-gita 7.1 -- Ahmedabad, December 4, 1970
5. Even a coolie can be guru, any man can be guru, it's not difficult at all-
"The instruction is there; you simply repeat and let them hear -- you become guru. It is not difficult at all. So that is our preaching. We do not want to become alone guru, but we want to preach in such a way that every, the chief man, or any man, he can become guru in his surroundings. Anyone can do that. Even a coolie, he can also, he has got family, he has got friends, so even though he is illiterate, he can hear the instruction of Krsna, and he can preach the same. This we want." > Bhagavad-gita 7.1 -- Bombay, December 20, 1975
6. The "best not to accept any disciple" guru-
One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one's life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life. > Madhya 7.13
7. Monitor guru- # 13. He must not take on unlimited disciples. This means that a candidate who has successfully followed the first twelve items can also become a spiritual master himself, just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples. The permanently liberated diksa guru-
8. The spiritual master is always the confidential associate of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu-
In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu. > Adi 1.47
9. Only such a person who is maha-bhagavata is diksa guru-
When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru. - Madhya 24.330
So we see the list from 1 - 7 are gurus who are not required to have high qualifications, they are siksa gurus in the temporary liberation status. Srila Prabhupada orders us all to be such gurus, and "any man [woman] can be guru."
The list of 8-9 however, are descriptions of the full diksa maha- bhagavata guru, who is uttama, fully liberated, permanently liberated, and personally ordered to be diksa guru by Srila Prabhupada.
Therefore the monitor guru has less stringent qualifications to be required, but the diksa guru should have all the following items. 1. A pure devotee is not recognized by his social
position, number of followers, or ashram or so forth,
but by his attraction to the holy name.
2. He is always speaking of Krishna.
3. Meek and humble, personification of 3rd verse of
siksastakam, lower than a straw, more tolerant than a
tree. He will respect all of his godbrothers/sisters.
4. Always avoids the 10 offenses to the holy name,
especially the first offense, which means he must be
free of the propensity to criticize others.
5. All qualities of a Brahmana, honesty, cleanliness,
etc.
6. Siksastakam is his life and soul, especially na
dhanam, na jahnam, na sundarim, so on, or no desire
for profit, adoration and distinction.
7. He is in the exalted status of Caitanya-caritamrta
Adi 1.47P, or, his is “always considered either one of
the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a
manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.”
“In all the ancient literatures of devotional service
and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa
Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other
unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always
considered either one of the confidential associates
of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of
Srila Nityananda Prabhu.” Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 1.47
8. He is maha-bhagavata, and those who see him,
immediately remember the holy name of Krishna.
“Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur says that if
an observer immediately remembers the holy name of
Krishna upon seeing a Vaisnava, that Vaisnava should
be considered a mahä-bhägavata, a first-class
devotee.” Caitanya-caritamrta - Madhya 16.74P
9. He must be above the bodily platform, completely
free of sex desire. [This is a tall order.]
10. He must be situated on the topmost platform, a
first class devotee.
“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of
devotional service. There are three classes of
devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the
topmost class. The first-class devotee is the
spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said,
gurur nirnam. The word nirnam means “of all human
beings.” The guru is not limited to a particular
group. It is stated in the Upadesamrita of Rüpa
Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a controller of the
senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples
from all over the world. This is the test of the
guru.” Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 24.330P
“When one has attained the topmost position of
mahä-bhägavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and
worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of
Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the
post of a guru.” Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 24.330P
11. He must be above the six stages mentioned in Srila
Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur’s book
Madhurya-Kadambini, the six stages of unsteady or
anisthita stages of bhajana-kriya (activities of
worship). The sixth stage is enjoying the facilities
of bhakti, or playing in the waves of the ocean of
bhakti, a position known as taranga-rangini.
12. He must always be in agreement with his guru, and
never question his guru, and always obedient to his
guru. [He honors the ritvik system that some of his
godbrothers choose to follow, does not argue with
godbrothers on this issue.]
13. He must be always jolly, never morose, or
brahma-bhuta, or liberated from the material concept
of life, “I and mine.”
14. He will not base his center of operations in Srila
Prabhupada’s temples, knowing them to be Srila
Prabhupada’s temples only, and base his center of
preaching in another location, yet come to Srila
Prabhupada’s temples for association.
15. He does not have ambition to be diksa guru, or
think he is qualified, this example is found in Srila
Bhaktivinode’s “Jaiva Dharma” where the babaji is a
first class devotee, but when he is asked by the
disciple to give diksa, he declines, saying he is not
qualified to be a diksa guru.
16. There are many more points to give on the uttama,
first class devotee, which one must be in order to be
a diksa guru.
Ref#6 - Approved by Vedic authorities-
We have the documented statements of other authorities on Sampradaya Siddhanta, namely Sri Bannanje Govindacharya, and HH Rangapriya Swami, and Lakshmi Tatachar, and all these authorities support Srila Prabhupada’s decision for ritvik representatives. They confirm that "this system can continue perpetually even in the physical absence of HH Srila Prabhupadaji," they say its been done before and therefore Srila Prabhupada chose this system, and there’s nothing in the Vedas to veto such a decision, this is all documented on the VNN website, simply search the above names and read the articles.
Ref #7 - Tamal Krishna's confession of appointments, at Topanga Canyon, CA- "I've
had certain realizations a few days ago... There are obviously so many
statements "The
inspiration came because there was a questioning on my part, so Krishna
spoke. ACTUALLY PRABHUPADA NEVER APPOINTED ANY GURUS. HE APPOINTED
ELEVEN RITVIKS. HE NEVER APPOINTED THEM GURUS. Myself and the other GBC
have done the greatest disservice to this movement the "Srila Prabhupada said, 'All right, I will appoint so
many...' and he started to name them. HE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY
ARE HIS DISCIPLES. At that point it was very clear in my mind that they
were his disciples. Later I asked him two questions, one: 'What about
Brahmananda Swami?' I asked him this because I happened to have an
affection for Brahmananda Swami... So Srila Prabhupada said, 'No, not
unless he is qualified.' Before I got ready to type the [July 9th.]
letter, I asked him, two: 'Srila Prabhupada is this all or do you want
to add more?' He said, 'As is necessary, others may be added.' "Now
I understand that what he did was very clear. He was physically
incapable of performing the function of initiation; therefore HE
APPOINTED OFFICIATING PRIESTS TO INITIATE ON HIS BEHALF. This is very
important because when it comes to initiating, it isn't whoever is
nearest, it's wherever your heart goes. Who [you] repose your faith on,
you take initiation from him. But when it's officiating, it's whoever is
nearest, and he was very clear, He named them. They were spread out all
over the world, and he said, 'WHOEVER YOU'RE NEAREST, YOU JUST APPROACH
THAT PERSON, AND THEY'LL CHECK YOU OUT. THEN, ON MY BEHALF, THEY'LL
INITIATE' It is not a question that you repose your faith in that
person--nothing. That's a function for the guru. 'In order for me to
manage this movement,' Prabhupada said, 'I have to form a GBC and I will
appoint the following people. IN ORDER TO CONTINUE THE PROCESS OF PEOPLE
JOINING OUR MOVEMENT AND GETTING INITIATED, I HAVE TO APPOINT SOME
PRIESTS TO HELP ME BECAUSE... I CANNOT PHYSICALLY MANAGE EVERYONE
MYSELF.' "AND
THAT'S ALL IT WAS, AND IT WAS NEVER ANY MORE THAN THAT. You can bet your
bottom dollar that Prabhupada would have spoken for days and hours and
weeks on end about how to set up this thing with the gurus, because he
had already said it a million times. He said: 'MY GURU MAHARAJA DID NOT
APPOINT ANYONE. It's by qualification.' We made a great mistake... "I
feel that this realization or this understanding is essential if we are
to avoid further things happening, because, believe me, it's going to
repeat. It's just a question of time until things have a little bit
faded out and again another incident is going to happen, whether it's
here in LA or somewhere else. It's going to continuously happen until
you allow the actual spiritual force of Krishna to be exhibited without
restriction... I feel that the GBC body, if they don't adopt this point
very quickly, if they don't realize this truth. YOU CANNOT SHOW ME
ANYTHING ON TAPE OR IN WRITING WHERE PRABHUPADA SAYS: 'I APPOINT THESE
ELEVEN AS GURUS.' IT DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE HE NEVER APPOINTED ANY
GURUS. THIS IS A MYTH..."
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