From:"L.S. Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 00:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [vnwomensforum] Saigoniste Friends, I came across this shop in NYC and was highly offended. Saigoniste markets "Modern Vietnamese Style" by employing broken English in their marketing material. It was awful. The store tags its products with "Ho Chi Mama say...." Apparently "Modern Vietnamese Style" means "Modern Orientalism." I confronted the woman at the register and asked why they're doing this. Surprised, she replied that it isn't broken English. "It's from a character on our website called Ho Chi Mama. She's Vietnamese." Apparently, Vietnamese women do not speak proper English. I was baffled. Was this answer supposed to have made some sort of sense to me since I speak impeccable English? Wait! I'm a Vietnamese woman! Ah-so, how this possible?! Other Asian boutiques in the area do not resort to Orientalism to promote their wares (Amy Chan, Cake-O, etc.). This could be because Asians actually run and own the stores. Also, the area borders with the largest Chinatown in the country and the largest concentration of Chinese in the western hemisphere. It seems like a thoughtless move to offend Asian neighbors with this stereotype. Maybe Saigoniste assumes that all Asians speak "fortune cookie dialect?" More likely, it's possible because no one has protested the obvious. This allows patrons to indulge in Third World lacquerware, priced at a Vietnamese laborer's average annual income, without thinking twice about how Asian and Vietnamese people would react to offensive marketing. Shall we remind them that behind a product lies a community, culture, and consequences? I encourage readers to e-mail the owners and let them know that Ho Chi Mama is inappropriate and tactless. Tell them to stop perpetuating a stereotype that has no place in society much less reflecting modern Vietnamese style. Check out this photo of the storefront with, "Ho Chi Mama say spring is time to put love in air and tropical color all over home." http://www.monkey.org/~dugsong/tmp/saigoniste.jpg Visit their website at www.saigoniste.com and e-mail your thoughts to contact@saigoniste.com. Thanks! LS From: L.S. Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [vnwomensforum] Saigoniste Mocks Vietnamese with Ho Chi Mama Character - Orientalists Beware I've written an article and started a petition against a store here in NYC called Saigoniste. Please read, sign, and forward on! The only response I've had is from the owner who believes that it's ok to keep Ho Chi Mama because her customers love the character, including Asians. Apparently Ho Chi Mama is.. "...one groovy, sexy, smart, opinionated, worldly woman -- not a negative portrayal at all -- and the vast majority of our passersby and customers seem to respond very enthusiastically to her. We think of her as a Vietnamese Martha Stewart or a Vietnamese Carrie Bradshaw...a smart, insightful arbiter of style." I thought that most people hate Martha Stewart? Anyway, she also believes that many people in this global village do not speak perfect English.....so totally missing the point. And, not hearing from folks like us. LS Saigoniste Mocks Vietnamese with Ho Chi Mama Character - Orientalists Beware by L.S. 6/9/03 It was a long day of going through Central Park, checking out the Puerto Rican Day Parade, visiting the Vietnam exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History, and spending time with a Vietnamese American friend, a newly minted professor and specialist in modern Vietnamese culture. As my husband and I talked about the cultural pride that reverberates throughout New York City, and my delight in how Vietnam is being celebrated and understood beyond a war, I stopped dead in my tracks. We had walked right by the store, Saigoniste. Some families of adopted Vietnamese children had told me about Saigoniste. I had assumed they said "Saigon East," thinking that it was a craft store started by backpackers who "just love Vietnam." Nothing new. In Vietnam, backpackers are known for their shopping talents; bringing back artifacts for those wanting something exotic, but not too Third World. My friends insisted that I stop by and see how offensive it is. I hadn't thought about it until yesterday. A window sign declared, "Ho Chi Mama say spring is time to put love in air and tropical color all over home." http://www.monkey.org/~dugsong/tmp/saigoniste.jpg I had to go in. Saigoniste markets "Modern Vietnamese Style" by employing broken English in their marketing material. It was awful. The store tags its products with "Ho Chi Mama say...." Apparently "Modern Vietnamese Style" means "Modern Orientalism." I confronted the woman at the register and asked why they're doing this. Surprised, she replied that it isn't broken English. "It's from a character on our website called Ho Chi Mama. She's Vietnamese." Apparently, Vietnamese women do not speak proper English. I was baffled. Was this answer supposed to have made some sort of sense to me since I speak impeccable English? Wait! I'm a Vietnamese woman! Ah-so, how this possible?! Other Asian boutiques in the area do not resort to Orientalism to promote their wares (Amy Chan, Cake-O, etc.). This could be because Asians actually run and own the stores. Also, the area borders with the largest Chinatown in the country and the largest concentration of Chinese in the western hemisphere. It seems like a thoughtless move to offend Asian neighbors with this stereotype. Maybe Saigoniste assumes that all Asians speak "fortune cookie dialect?" More likely, it's possible because no one has protested the obvious. This allows patrons to indulge in Third World lacquerware, priced at a Vietnamese laborer's average annual income, without thinking twice about how Asian and Vietnamese people would react to offensive marketing. Who knew that Vietnamese people would actually come to New York? Even if by way of Ann Arbor, Michigan? Or, that there's actually a Vietnamese American community here that unlike their third world brethren, can speak up and out? My husband and I left the store in disgust, too shocked that what was blatantly obvious to us went over the heads of the store patrons and owners. I am loathe to make comparisons with other ethnic groups but sometimes it helps to make ignorant people understand the damage behind perpetuating stereotypes. What the store doesn't understand is that if any other ethnic group was being targeted, protests would be immediate. Imagine a high-end Native American craft store using "Indian talk" like "Princess Pretty Rainbow likeum beads for teepee decoration." It's ridiculous and shows no love or respect for a people or culture. It's also far from humorous as Native Americans and Asian Americans alike will attest to how stereotypes lead to racism, how it contributes to people believing we are abnormally different, unscrupulous, and the "exotic other." Perhaps even, incapable of using definite and indefinite particles or conjugating verbs. Saigoniste may cater to Soho and Nolita crowds but it needs to answer to the Vietnamese and Asian American communities. The store is about a century behind in its caricature and unaware of protests against corporations who've resorted to similar marketing strategies. Remember the Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts portraying Chinese laundrymen? Or last year's Kung Fool Halloween mask featuring a horrific, slanty-eyed, buck toothed figure? Maybe Shaquille O'Neal's "ching chong" comment to Yao Ming? That's right, we're able to pull together vocal outrage, media coverage, and national protests like any other ethnic group. Besides Ho Chi Mama, the owners go on to declare their "love" for Vietnam: "It goes without saying that we at Saigoniste love Vietnam longtime! Even more, we love the name Cochinchine, the former French name for the country when it was a colony of France. (Indochine, which most people associate with Vietnam, was in fact the name for the entire region, including Cambodia and Laos). If it weren't completely un-PC, we'd love it if they rebranded the country Cochinchine to give it a bit of retro-chic appeal. If you are planning a trip to this fabled and fabulous country, there are some insider tips that we just can't keep to ourselves. Read on, or contact one of us at the shop for some personal insight and scoop." http://www.saigoniste.com/news_tips.html Time to study up, people. Colonialism is not cool but then maybe the owners never actually talked to the Vietnamese people about this, they just bought and ran. The Vietnamese people suffered under the French, thus the reason for independence and conflict. My Grandmother told us stories about the French using Vietnamese as slaves on rubber plantations, capturing and killing runaways, then burying their bodies underneath a tree to ensure that their very souls would be tied to labor even in the afterlife. Love Vietnam? Love the people? Then love our voices and anger. It's not worth keeping Ho Chi Mama and it's beyond being un-PC to market a country like a hip shopping mall. Shall we remind them that behind a product lies a community, culture, and consequences? I encourage readers to e-mail the owners and let them know that Ho Chi Mama is inappropriate and tactless. Tell them to stop perpetuating a stereotype that has no place in society much less reflecting modern Vietnamese style. This modern Vietnamese American woman says, "Orientalists beware, the joke's on you." Please sign this petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/hochima/petition.html Saigoniste can be found at www.saigoniste.com . From: MT Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:19:00 EDT Subject: [vnwomensforum] FYI re offensive clothing store Message to Saigoniste I've viewed the Ho Chi Mama quote on your storefront and find it completely offensive. Saigonistes' selection of wares and displays are quite original and well thought out. Please continue to raise the bar of fashion without lowering the bar of stereotypes. Vietnamese Women do not choose to speak broken English TN Response from Saigoniste From: Cynthia Ashworth Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:16 PM To: T.N. Subject: RE: dear owners I am one of the co-owners of Saigoniste. We received your email wanted to respond immediately. We are extremely sorry that you take offence to some of the language and branding we use in our store. We certainly do not wish to offend. Our goal has been and continues to be to promote Vietnamese design and high quality merchandise with sophistication and panache. We believe that our store, website and merchandising do that in a highly engaging, effective, respectful, and yes, humorous kind of way. The Ho Chi Mama character is probably one of the biggest selling points of the store, and integral to the personality and identity of Saigoniste. Interestingly, it is Ho Chi Mama who invites a majority of the positive feedback on the store - and we have taken great care to make sure that her 'voice' reflects positive attributes. (As a casual observation, we would estimate that a fifth to a quarter of our foot traffic is Asian, and we get tons of positive comments on Ho Chi Mama). I don't know whether you have read the majority of her "isms" but we feel that they reflect her sense of humor, her confident sense of style, and her smart observations on the world at large. True, her English may not be perfect (and in this global village whose really is?) but she is one groovy, sexy, smart, opinionated, worldly woman - and the vast majority of our passersby and customers seem to respond very enthusiastically to her. We think of her as a Vietnamese Martha Stewart or a Vietnamese Carrie Bradshaw...a smart, insightful arbiter of style. We appreciate your positive comments about the merchandise and again, we are sorry that you are unhappy with the way that we are promoting Saigoniste. Given our own personal and family backgrounds we are truly the last people who would want to perpetuate negative stereotypes. However we believe that if you heard/saw/felt the reactions most people have you might feel rather differently. CA From: L.S. Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [vnwomensforum] FYI re offensive clothing store That's the canned message that the owners have been sending over the past 2 days. Ladies, I hope you will take the time to sign the petition and point out to the owners that they fail to understand the gravity of their actions. Nor do they understand how transparent their lack of concern is by cut-and-pasting the same response. Keep in mind that the store has been open for a year and early on, faced criticism from the adopted Vietnamese community. They gave the same response then and only wavered a bit today. They're considering to tone down Ho Chi Mama. Totally off point. Also, I'd especially appreciate your persistance given my inability to involve the local Vietnamese American community here in NYC. My call to a local organization was met with, "Protest? Get a lawyer." So please, please sign the petition and continue to contact the owners. LS From: L.S. Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 18:39:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [vnwomensforum] No apologies, Ho Chi Mama lives Friends - A message from the store owners. I believe our concern is that the character Ho Chi Mama is offensive to everyone regardless of whether or not people have been to the store, or if you're of Vietnamese ancestry. Why keep her at all? What worries me is how the message minimizes the response they've received (several thousand people were notified): "We received the comments sent by you and several others." ...as well as their continuing disbelief that it's offensive: "...the Ho Chi Mama-isms which may have caused concern." Please continue to leave no doubt in the owners' minds that Ho Chi Mama is offensive by signing the petition. Thank you. http://www.petitiononline.com/hochima/ - L.S. Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:07:45 -0500 From: C.A. To: L.S. Subject: RE: Reply to your email message regarding Ho Chi Mama Thanks you for your email. We received the comments sent by you and several others. Again, we want to stress that it was not our intention to offend in any way. You may notice that we have made a few changes to our website to address the comments we received. We are also changing the headline on our window, and rewriting the Ho Chi Mama-isms which may have caused concern. However, Ho Chi Mama will continue on in her role as Saigoniste's brand ambassador. We have received tremendous positive feedback on the character from customers (including many customers of Vietnamese birth and heritage) and have no plans to do away with her. By the way I recently scanned your petition and you should know that several customers (Vietnamese and not) who actually HAVE visited the store have weighed in PRO-Ho Chi Mama. We trust this matter is now closed. Sincerely, CA From: L.S. Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [vnwomensforum] Ho Chi Mama Update Friends - Ho Chi Mama is alive and well. Though Saigoniste has made concessions in removing the pro-colonial language and the character from their website, it looks like Ho Chi Mama's continuing to take up residence within the store. If you remember the petition and article written in protest, the requests were to remove Ho Chi Mama, not just tweak her English. The name itself is a play on Ho Chi Minh and though it isn't overtly racist, it's still in bad taste and void of humor. Of course, no one can regulate bad taste, but I thought I'd forward this response to you anyway. It demonstrates a certain arrogance and effort to minimize our complaints. Though the petition has attracted over 600 signatures, they still claim Ho Chi Mama elicits "tons of positive feedback." It's fantastic that Saigoniste has made some changes and are seemingly remorseful. Please encourage them to go the extra mile and remove Ho Chi Mama completely. Perhaps we can help them think of alternatives. You can continue to send your comments and suggestions, also sign the petition. We need tons of them. Sign the petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/hochima/ The article is at: http://www.imdiversity.com/article_detail.asp?Article_ID=17186 Finally, the store has mentioned potential legal action against me since some supporters have threatened physical violence and vandalism. I must emphasize that vandalizing the store and threatening the owners' safety is completely outside the bounds of this protest. So please, register your complaints accordingly since the owners seem to believe that it's the protest itself, and not Ho Chi Mama, that is upsetting people. No violence, please. Thanks! LS Final Verdict- Thanks to the support that LS got, the store stopped using Ho Chi Mama as an advertising tool.