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FAQ # 171
QUESTION 171 : Do you believe that the "SON" preexisted
(as a person not just as a thought or something) before the Incarnation?
In line with the
question, these verses are often used to back a preexisted son - Micah
5:2, Isa. 9:6, Zech. 12:10, Rev.
1:7, 1 Cor. 10:9, 1 Cor. 10:1, Numb. 21:5-9, 1 Cor. 10:4, Isa. 44:8b,
John 1:15,30, John 1:1,14, John 3:13, John 6:51, John 3:31,32, John 17:5,
John 17:24, Isa. 43:10. One person also noted,
“He says, numerous times, that He has "come forth"
from the Father, is "going back" to the Father, has "come
down from heaven" and "come into the world" -- all statements
which clearly presuppose that He really existed with the Father
prior to His earthly birth (John 3:13, 31; 6:33, 38, 41, 46, 51, 57-58;
8:42; 13:3; 16:27-28; John 1:15, 31, 6:62). What is more, the Father is
referred to as distinct from Jesus the Son throughout the New Testament
over 200 times. And over 50 times, Jesus the Son and the Father are juxtaposed
within the same verse. Ask your Oneness friend why there is this overwhelming
(indeed, unanimous) emphasis on Jesus being the Son of God and being distinct
from the Father if in fact Scripture also wants to teach us that Jesus
is Himself the Father? Why is Scripture so clear on the first point
and yet so silent on the second? (CRI JOURNAL Gregagory A. Boyd, http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0082a.txt)
I am very glad
you asked this question. And I have a question for you.
Where does the
Bible SPECIFICALLY SAY that the WORD existed as the SON eternally?
Apparently you
and I DON'T agree on the definition of the Incarnation-
Luke
1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall
come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore
also THAT HOLY THING which shall be BORN OF THEE SHALL BE called THE SON
OF GOD."
Gal
4:4 "But WHEN the fulness of THE TIME WAS COME, God sent forth HIS
SON, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law."
Again, the definition
of the Biblical word- "word"- "Strong's reference number:
3056, Greek: logos, Derivation: Derived from 3004. Definition: something
said (including the thought); by impl. A TOPIC (subject of discourse),
also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extens. a computation;
spec. (with the art. of John) THE DIVINE EXPRESSION (i.e. Christ)"
-Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
John
1:14 "And THE WORD (thought, topic, divine expression) WAS MADE FLESH,
and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only
BEGOTTEN of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John
3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life."
John
3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED in the name of
the only BEGOTTEN Son of God."
Act
13:33 "God HATH FULFILLED the same UNTO US their children, in that
he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in THE SECOND PSALM,
Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE."
Heb
1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my
Son, THIS DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee? And again, I will be to him a Father,
and he shall be to me a Son?"
Heb
5:5 "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest;
but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, TO DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee."
Does the word "begotten"
mean eternal to you Trinitarians? Does it NOT mean something in reference
to time, and therefore, SPECIFICALLY NOT eternal? (Especially since the
scriptures so often qualify the term "begotten" with "THIS
DAY"!!!)
BEGOTTEN- "Strong's
reference number: 3439, Greek: MONOGENES, Derivation: Derived from 3441
1096 (see below), Definition: only born, i.e. sole.
MONO-genes: "Strong's
reference number: 3441, Greek: MONOS, Derivation: Derived from 3306, Definition:
remaining, i.e. sole or single; by impl. mere" -Strong's Exhaustive
Concordance.
mono-GENES: "Strong's
reference number: 1096 Greek: GINOMAI, Derivation: A primary word. Definition:
TO CAUSE TO BE ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflex.) TO BECOME (COME
INTO BEING), used with great latitude (lit. or fig., intens., etc.).
For example, was
Abraham's son Isaac an 'eternal son' since he was "BEGOTTEN"
by Abraham? And if not, according to Trinitarian logic, why not?
Heb
11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac... HIS
ONLY BEGOTTEN son."
Moreover, Where
does the Bible say that we are to believe on the name of His only 'ETERNAL'
Son?
If the Bible says
to believe on His BEGOTTEN Son, and Trinitarians change that to mean 'ETERNAL'
Son, how are they NOT then preaching another Christ?
2
Cor 11:3 "But I FEAR, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled
Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity
that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, WHOM
WE HAVE NOT PREACHED, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not
received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well
bear with him."
How is it that
BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT TRINITARIANS HAVE CHANGED THE MEANING OF 'BEGOTTEN
SON' TO 'ETERNAL SON' this does not PROVE CONCLUSIVELY that TRINITARIANS
DON'T EVEN BELIEVE JOHN 3:16???
John 3:16 "For
God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever
believeth IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Therefore, laying
aside the commandment of God: "BEGOTTEN Son... believeth IN HIM,"
ye hold the tradition of men {the "SON" preexisted... as a person}...
Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition...
Making the word of God of NONE EFFECT by your tradition, WHICH YE HAVE
DELIVERED... -Mk 7:6-13.
{Source: Above from Tom R.}
Part
2
Therefore, the
son actually came into existence at the time of Mary’s conception and
had to do with the Flesh. The spirit that walked or was embalmed in the
flesh, son, was the one and only eternal spirit we call God the father.
In other words, the same spirit that rules as the one God, creator of
all things, came to earth as a human being called Jesus Christ the son.
You might say that the scriptures say Christ was from the foundation of
the earth. It doesn’t mean he was begotten from then or a separate preexisted
son was present. For instance, I became a Christian before the foundation
of the world. When did that actually happen? Summer of 1997. So how could
I be a Christian from the foundation of the world? Because it was already
in the forethoughts of the father to happen. For instance, he said to
Jeremiah the prophet that before he was born he knew him (Jer 1:5).
How could God know him before he wasn’t even born? Because he spoke of
future events as though they are now, being the one who sets them and
not confine to time as we know it. So everything to him is neither pass,
present, nor future – he knows all things and can speak thus. He operates
based on his word, as his word is spoken so it is; and as you can’t separate
a man from his word or thoughts, so you can’t separate God from what he
has spoken or thought, so to speak. Hence,
“In
the beginning was the word [God], and the word was with God [not
two separate persons, just like a man and his thought], and the word
was God [clarifies that they are not two persons, for only one can be
God]… and the word became flesh [his pre-thought crucifixion plan was
now into effect, as in, this was in his mind from the foundation of the
world to do; walk with and redeem man]" (John 1:1-14).
And to prove that
the Word wasn’t a separate person from God himself but resonate the faculty
of speech, one psalm read, “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;
and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth” (Ps
33:6); the word is the spoken idea of God. So when a type of personality
is given to the word in the New
Testament (Col. 1:16-17) it is for metaphorical or analogical reasons.
That is the mystery of godliness, it is a “one man ‘show’”, or should
we say, a “One God ‘Show’!”
If that is not seen, then erroneous arguments such as these will develop,
fiddling with the metaphorical and analogical reasons:
Heb.1:4 "having become
so much better than the angels." How? By nature? NO, by exaltation
at the resurrection returning to his former position. He already was better
in nature before his incarnation, being deity, the very one who created
all the angels.
Heb.1:5 "For to which of the
angels did he ever say ‘you are my Son today I have begotten you’? Here
the writer is proclaiming the Son as superior to angels. Angels are the
greatest of Gods creation, and the Son is better v.4 How? Because as the
Son he shares the same nature with his Father.
Heb.1:6 The Father tells all
the angels to worship the Son. According to Oneness, they are worshipping
his humanity. How is this possible unless he is the Son is God?
[My Comment: His sonship
was begotten with Mary, hence his humanity, but the spirit in him is eternal,
actually God the Father, to whom we give worship. Human beings are not
flesh and blood only, we are spirits housed in a temporary flesh. Worshipping
Jesus would be worshipping the spirit housed in the flesh, God the Father].
Heb.1:8 God the Father says
to the Son, "your throne O’ God is forever and ever. Does a human
have a throne that is forever? Or does this passage settle the Trinitarian
position that the Son is God alongside the Father?
V.10 the Father still speaking
to the Son "and you Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of
the Earth and the heavens are the work of your hands..." The Father
calls the Son Lord [Yahovah] and says he was present as the architect,
not as a plan. Someone is confused here, how is this possible when they
say the Son is not really there, yet he is attributed to be the creator
by the Father?
Someone is confused here, how is this possible when the Son is not really
there he is attributed to be the creator ? Or that he is called Lord by
the Father. If Jesus is the same Son of all these scriptures in Heb.1
maybe its just as the Trinitarians have been stating the Son is eternal.
They can do the Chubby Checker dance of twist and shout but they will
never remove the Eternal Son from the book of Hebrews or the rest of scripture,"
thy word is settled in the heavens forever".
This is where some
of the error of a pre-existed Son stemmed from (pagan philosophies):
"The great Greek philosopher, Aristotle, had taught that: 'the Deity
stands in lonely self-contemplation outside the world... his intellect
(nous) is the only thing through which He stands in immediate contact
with it.' And Plato of Athens had taught that gods by definition 'are
exalted above pleasure and pain, and are untouched of evils.' THUS THE
TRINITARIANS MADE A FATHER WHO WAS IMPASSABLE (i.e. incapable of suffering
or feeling pain), the first person, and then a second person (whom they
styled the Logos, 'Mind' or nous), who was passable (capable of suffering
and feeling pain). The apostles never taught such a doctrine. And even
later in Ignatius we read of one God, who was '...impassable, yet for
us subjected to sufferings... What the Trinitarians were saying was that
a different one had been incarnated or had come in the flesh. THEY DID
NOT BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST TO BE ALMIGHTY GOD" -William Chalfant, Ancient
Champions of Oneness, pages 122-123.
Remember that Rom.
1:20 states, “For the invisible things of him from the creation
of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are
made, even his Eternal power and Godhead;” Which means that the
invisible things are brought to our scope or finite understanding by the
things that are created. The things of the heavens are too deep for our
naked understanding. So if plainly stated we could not understand. In
order for us to grasp his concept or purpose, he uses things that are
made (earthly) or things we already understand. We already know the father
son relationship and how difficult it is for a man to sacrifice his son,
especially if it is the only one. However, we cannot fathom the sacrifice
God made in coming to earth to save you and me. He has to use natural
things he created to explain mysteries and heavenly knowledge too high
for us to perceive.
The point is, the
term father and son are not applied literally as we use it. The Lord uses
things we already understand to describe salvation and other things far
beyond earthly comprehension.
Why?
God asked, “knowest
thou the ordinances of heaven” (Job 38:33)? Job here and all of us have
no clue of the happenings in the spiritual unforeseen realms, so “the
invisible things...are...understood by the things that are made.” In this
case, inherent knowledge of the human “father and son” relationship.
A realistic or
logical question would be, ‘if Jesus is the spiritual Son of God before
the foundation of the world (John 1:1), then who or where is his mother
from then?’ He himself said that he was before Abraham (John 8:58). And
remember, Mary was earthly and therefore had a beginning and an end. So
then, the term “son” is for our finite understanding; for even angels
are referred to as the “sons of God” (Genesis 6:2 & 4).
How else could
men understand it? God came to earth, died and then freed us. You would
say, “big deal, he is God”. But through this sonship experience he is
showing us that what he did is not just a ‘big deal”, but likened unto
the difficulty of sacrificing all that you are and ever wanted to save
a stiff-necked and rebellious humanity. Epitomized by Abraham and his
son Isaac. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten
son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting
life.” Or as “In Pursuit of Purpose” puts it, “his desire to see all men
and women know life as He intended it is so strong that he has tried again
and again throughout the history of man to redirect us into His predestined
path. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is His final attempt.”
Final in that, “An evil and adulterous generation
… shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas” (Matt 12:39). “For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall
also the Son of man [Jesus] be to this generation” (Lk 11:30). He had
tried everything else and him coming would be his final attempt. For us
to understand this, a father son scenario is given, not that there was
a preexisted son (separate being) waiting to be incarnated; it was God
himself. Father in creation, son in redemption and Holy Ghost in us. One
God manifesting as he pleases. Coming in the likeness of a son that we
can become “…no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir
of God through Christ” (Gal 4:7). Simply that!
Answer Notes:
1. One person also noted, “If the Son is not pre-existent in the Old Testament
passages then why should we believe the Father is? If we apply the same
rules of interpretation to both, this is the only conclusion we can come
to. Heb. 7:3 The author of Hebrews certainly has a different opinion from
Oneness. His is rooted in truth. He describes Melchezidek as one without
Father or mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning or end of
life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest forever." Here
he is giving the comparison of Melchezidek as a type of Christ, in that
he always existed. He also parallels the eternal priesthood and the Son
as an eternal being without beginning of days or end of life. This is
where folly meets absurdity, if the father is not pre-existent whom then
would be God, how would we be? While an explanation is needed for the
pre-existence of the son, none is needed for the father, for the father
just is. We know he is God, what we are trying to clarify is the mystery
of godliness or he manifesting in flesh – A separate pre-existent person
sent or the same person robed in flesh? This FAQ already solidify the
latter. Also, the same rule of interpretation cannot be applied to both
roles, because only the Son refers to humanity, or the incarnation in
Mary, clear beginning. Whilst the Father is eternal or had always been;
and the same spirit that took on the role of Son, robed in flesh. Melchezidek
is another case, fully dealt with in another FAQ or two.
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