TEMPO Magazine No. 28/II/March 19 - 25, 2002
National
Ja'far Umar Thalib: "I'm offended by these allegations"
The offices of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah Communications Forum in
Cempakaputih, Central Jakarta, have a somewhat eerie feel about them. Every visitor
is met by two or three men of similar appearance—bearded, and wearing peci (Muslim
hats) and baggy trousers. They don't appear to like smiling. As if entering a military
base, they demand to know the guest's business, check his identity card and require
him to sign the visitor's book.
However, in our case the ice melted shortly after our arrival when our host, Ja'far Umar
Thalib, the Laskar Jihad commander who has long been known as a hard-line Muslim
figure, welcomed us and proceeded to shower us with hospitality. So much so that he
frequently lost his concentration. As a result, the one-hour interview was marked by
laughter and joking. Nevertheless, the flow of the interview given by Ja'far, the father of
10 children by 4 wives, to Dwi Arjanto and Irfan Budiman from TEMPO, was
maintained. The highlights are as follows:
Have you read The New York Times article?
Not all of it. But if they say I'm the Indonesian Osama bin Laden, then that's going too
far. Before carrying out an investigation, they have stigmatized me as a dangerous
person. The interviews and visits to our office in Yogyakarta were only to seek
evidence to back up their claims, not to seek the truth.
Does it make you proud to be labeled the Indonesian Osama bin Laden?
(Laughs)... I know Osama well. His background in religious training is zero and his
way of thinking is extreme. I'm not one of those who revere Osama. To equate me
with Osama is an insult.
In reality, what is the difference between you and Osama bin Laden?
We adhere to the sunnah (words and deeds of Prophet Muhammad—Ed), while he
adheres to heresies. We attempt to study and understand the teachings of the
Prophet while Osama just wants to politicize religion. It is clear that there will be no
meeting of minds.
But don't you both have the same anti-American attitude?
It's true that we are anti-US but not anti-American citizens. We are against the
political policies of the US that have greatly prejudiced Muslims all around the world.
There are Americans who are also Muslims, recent converts. That's why we accepted
journalists from that newspaper.
So, you are not against American products?
Of course not. I myself drink Coca-Cola and eat McDonald's. There was a journalist
once who said during an interview, "You are anti-US, but some of your Laskar Jihad
students wear Nike shirts." I had to laugh. We are against the political policies of the
American government. Thus, we don't approve of "sweeping" against American
citizens. We fear that the targets will become those who were not directly involved.
It was also stated in the article that there are a number of Laskar Jihad members who
are expert bombmakers? What do you have to say to this?
(Laughs)... Extraordinary. Really too much. The journalists only came to Yogyakarta.
In the conflict areas the locals are well-used to making bombs. Before the trouble
started, they used to make them to catch fish. So it's really hilarious that they should
write like that.
Have you and Laskar Jihad been subjected to surveillance?
We don't care if we are being spied on or watched by the US. If we go to a particular
area, the American media makes a big hullabaloo. We went to Irian Jaya for a mass
prayer meeting and suddenly the American media were jumping up and down. They
were calling me up and asking what we wanted in Irian. There was Time, Los Angeles
Times, AP, and even the BBC. They were asking me why I was going to Irian Jaya.
"Why? So what? Isn't Irian Jaya Indonesian territory?" What had it to do with them?
What about the security forces here?
Just normal. Sometimes when we have a mass prayer meeting, there are a few Malay
intelligence operatives (laughs)... For us, the important thing is not to be hit.
What about an Islamic state? Do you want to establish an Islamic state?
Our struggle is not about establishing an Islamic state. In reality, an Islamic state is
one in which the majority of its inhabitants are Muslim. Its leadership is Muslim so
that the call to prayer can be made freely. Religious obligations like the pilgrimage to
Mecca are carried out or aided by the state. The same applies to the collection of
charitable donations. There is an Islamic law court—albeit in limited form as in the
case of the religious courts—that is on a par with the state courts in its own area of
jurisdiction. Why should we try to establish an Islamic state when we already have
one?
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