Well, (holds up Bible) professors, uh, don't usually carry Bibles, do they? You want a lecture or a sermon? [M: "A little bit of both!"] OK!

Why are people here? I admire- for whatever, many, many reasons that, uh, people have come, you people sitting out here in this sun, listening, to all these speeches, uh, I find it moving.

And I, uh, want to start, actually, with something from the Scriptures. I want to tell you about the first Koresh. You know, there was a Koresh before David Koresh. I'm not talking about somebody in Florida, I'm talking about somebody in the, uh, sixth century BC. His name was Cyrus. But, Jews were, killed by Babylonians in the year 586. And they wrote a lot of the Psalms, lamenting what happened. And I want to read to you two passages, and then comment on them. Psalm 79: "Oh God, the nations have come into your inheritance. They have defiled your holy place, they've laid it in ruins. They've given the bodies of your servants to the birds of the air for food, and the flesh of your faithful to the wild animals, of the earth. They poured out their blood like water, and there was no one to bury them. We've become a taunt, to our neighbors, mocked and derided by those around us. How long, oh Lord, how long?"

And the other passage, is from the same period, the Book of Isaiah. Now Isaiah, lived through this period. As sort of an eyewitness to the calamities of his time. He saw a lot of people die, he saw dead bodies in the streets, he saw corpses. Here's what he wrote. "The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart. The devout are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous are taken away from calamity, and they enter into peace. Those who walk uprightly, rest in their graves. But as for you, the living, come here! You children of a sorceress, you offspring of an adulterer and a whore, whom are you mocking?" Now it sounds like Isaiah was a person who had kind of a sharp tongue. To call someone not a SOB, but, the son of a whore? Who is this whore? Why is this kind of a language in the Bible? You see, what happened in the sixth century BC, is that a very powerful governmental force came in to, the little country of Judah. Absolutely devastated it. These psalms, that I'm reading, Psalm 79 and also Isaiah 56, are written, as accounts, of the aftermath of that. You hear, you heard, how they mention, dead bodies, and corpses, and fire. And how they talk about the dead resting. And there's sort of a feeling of bitterness. There's two sharply divided sides here. On the one hand, there's a group that thinks they're the righteous, on the other hand, there's a group that the, this group is calling the sons of a whore, of an adulterous, woman. Now, if you go to the New Testament- a lot of people don't read the Book of Revelation. Do you know what the Book of Revelation is actually about, in a word? It's about a, worldwide repeat, in a large, grand scale, of that smaller event that took place in Judaea in the sixth century BC. In other words, their ancient Babylonian empire came into Judaea and, uh, devastated it- and, the Book of Revelation, if you've read it, uh, just take chapter eighteen, chapter nineteen, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" and so forth, is about the Babylonians coming, different Babylonians, at the end of days, and conquering, uh, the people that consider themselves the righteous.

Now- Koresh, was Cyrus. King of Persia. And he's addressed in Isaiah 45, and he's told, go take vengeance on those Babylonians. In other words, go punish them, for what they did to these children, and these women, and these innocent people, uh, in the siege of Jerusalem. Now all that is ancient history. But that's the backdrop, actually, for some of the Scriptures that David Koresh was most interested in. Now- here's the strange thing about David Koresh. Some of you know this, some of you don't. David, could sit here in Waco, Texas near Elk- and I'm not putting it down- but frankly, this is not Jerusalem. The whole world was not here, there were some FBI and ATF agents- but, there's only a handful of people here, a hundred or so- that were eventually killed, maybe eighty-seven of them. How could that be the fulfillment of the Book of Revelation? Isn't the Book of Revelation, too grand for that? Isn't it too, sweeping for that sort of thing? And so, not only did people hear a lot of things about David in terms of him being, a disreputable person, a child abuser, a sexual pervert- but they also heard that he's, fairly crazy. Because how could a young Texas boy, relatively uneducated, be claiming, that around his people, and around the issues, of this place where we are right now, are cosmic, kind of, major things going on directly mentioned in the Bible. You see? And that's what he actually claimed.

Now- I'm not here actually to even pass judgment on that, I'm here to, maybe shed some light on it. In this sense. If you want to understand what happened here- there're people here for all kinds of reasons. Uh, maybe, mostly good, I hope- I don't think most people would come here unless they had some sort of feeling for what went on in a sympathetic sense. But, what actually went on here, from the, standpoint of the students of the Seven Seals- who really don't even call themselves Branch Davidians, from what I understand- uh, they came to study with David. What do they all say? If you know them- what do they all say, about why they studied with David? Every single one of 'em. Ask 'em- some of them are here today. They say, that David Koresh was able, to go through, the Bible- books like Haggai, Nahum, Habbakuk- books that nobody reads, really. Who reads 'em? I'm not gonna, you know, get personal. Have you read 'em, have I read 'em- Ron hadn't read 'em! Where's Ron? Huh! But, uh- He's over there! But see, David, was able, to these people's satisfaction, to show them, that something was going on, as they said, line by line, precept by precept, here a little, there a little, that was actually unlocking the whole key, to the entire Scriptures.

Now- I've devoted thirty years of my life to the professional study of the, Scriptures. And I, found myself drawn into this. David wanted to talk to religious scholars, right? Now here I am- I have a Ph.D from the University of Chicago- I know the Bible pretty well. Uh, I would have loved to have talked to David, I would have loved to have, uh, had con-, nice conversations with him, and, you k-, really got into it with him. Now, think of this situation. Uh, in terms of the religious aspect of it. Because, no matter why you're here, the reason it actually happened, had to do with the message. That is, why would those people not come out? If you've watched the videos that were made inside, they all say, we're convinced that David, was able to unlock the Scriptures, and is in touch with God, and therefore, we're not coming out, until, God says, that we should come out. Right? That was their position. Now, were they just stubborn? Or were they practi- were they naive? Or were they ignorant? Why wouldn't they come out? You know, the public wondered. Because from their standpoint, here's this, wacko, you heard all the jokes, kind of, crazy guy, who is babbling all this Bible stuff- Nahum, and Haggai, and I'm a ravenous bird from the east, and my name is Koresh- what does all this mean? People don't normally get into these things, this is line by line, this is word by word, going from Isaiah 40, 41,42, 43, line by line, what does this mean, what does this mean, what about this word, where else is this found. Now people spent, would spend fifteen hours, studying, why? Because they were a captive audience? No, because they got fascinated. They got hooked. Into the text. See, what the world did not understand, that the power, of this whole thing, had to do with people, who had grown up believing the Bible had the truth in it, and here was a man, David Koresh, that had finally shown us, what the Bible actually says, in the greatest detail. For example, what does Daniel 11, verse 44, really mean? Well, most people would say th-, who can find it? You know? "I hadn't read it lately!" He'd say, what does Revelation 10, verse 4 mean? Who is that messenger, who's gonna reveal all the mysteries and secrets of the Bible, or should we just throw this Book out?

Now look at where I found myself then. I find myself as a Biblical scholar, not being allowed directly to talk, but wanting to talk, and through these tapes, as Ron said, and, and Arnold, dialoguing with this, with this person, who had a completely different training. He didn't go to the University of Chicago! He didn't speak Hebrew and Greek, as I do! So, what, what is it? Now at first I thought, well, it, it, it's kind of a delicate thing, you know, uh, we know more than David. And we'll just try to kinda, not con him out, but, you know, talk- I don't want to say down to him, but- you know, you couldn't know what we know. But as we began to talk to Livingstone Fagan and so on, we realized that David did have something. Now I'm not here actually to endorse David's message, I'm trying to shed some light, on why what happened, happened. It didn't happen because of religious freedom, First Amendment rights, any of that stuff that people are rightfully interested in. It didn't happen because, the government shouldn't have planned the, 28 raid, uh, February 28th. I mean, it did and it didn't. But it wasn't about that. What it was actually about, was this, quote, uneducated Texas kid, who claimed he could explain every word in the King James Bible. I was intrigued with that, you see.

Now- where did we get with David? Really, nowhere! We wouldn't, we couldn't talk to him. But- we did begin to open up some things, and you can talk to David Thibodeau, and so- and David appreciated us, because at least we were listening. We were saying, David, what are you really saying. You know, we've got texts, you've got texts, let's get into it, you see. And we did that.

That's the setup. Now why did I start with this first Koresh? Uh, the ancient one. Cyrus, king of Persia. Because, you read those texts, they're so stark, they're so- right and wrong. On one side, is the son of a whore, on the other side are the righteous that are slain. And their bodies left for animals to eat. Now- the Bible's that kind of book. If you open the Book of Revelation, it's that way too. Are there two sides in the Book of Revelation? Are there three sides, four sides, or five sides? There're two sides, right? There is a war, with the Lamb, and there is the Beast. Who's in the middle? Nobody! You see?

Now- I am not here to tell you, that over there in those ruins were the righteous, and here were the wicked, or, reverse it. The wicked, the child perverter, the sex maniac, was in there, and the righteous, our culture, was out here. In other words, who is Babylon? Now I have my opinions, and if you're real smart you can probably figure out, where I stand. But, I'm not- that isn't what I came to do, to lambaste the government and say David was right, and, you know, preach his gospel or something. I'm trying to come here to say that the only way to deal with him, as a culture, or as a government, or as, quote, negotiators, which I really wasn't, was to talk about the Scriptures. That's why those people were there, that's why those people died. Those people died, because they believed David, had unlocked, the truth of the Holy Bible, that our country, essentially, was founded upon. That's why they died! They died for a noble cause. Now- if they're wrong, they are to be pitied, but not hated. That is, I would call them, naive. Maybe even foolish. People have believed a lot of things that were wrong, I suppose, in history, and died for them. Now, if you go back in the ancient times, when the Babylonians came in and destroyed Jerusalem, they wrote Psalm 79 and Isaiah 59. We're reading their side of it. And what did they say? They've come in, they've burned our place, they've killed our children, they've left us as prey, they are the wicked sons of the whore, and we are the righteous, and God is gonna judge this world. That's the perspective that David took up. Now why did I start there? Because I want you to see, that the perspective of the Branch Davidians, right or wrong, is an ancient perspective, not a new perspective. Somebody talked about a "new" religious movement. The perspective of a minority group, facing, the Babylonians, goes back to Abraham. And then, the text I read, and all the way through, and even the Book of Revelation. You see? It's a long history. Your job is to decide, which side, is right, if you have any interest in the Bible.

Now- you know three things were done wrong here. The pressure and the harassment, was wrong. It was- and wrong, I mean it wouldn't work. If you pressure and harass a religious group, that says, we are the righteous people of God and you are the wicked Babylonians, who have killed our people, what would that pressure do? I mean, do we- let's ask, a grade-schooler. Would that make them weaker or stronger? See? What did Jesus of Nazareth say? The beatitudes: "Blessed are you, when people revile you." What did he say about himself? "They will spit upon me, and reject me, and say all manner of evil," you see, "against me." OK? So pressure, and harassment, was wrong. This wasn't a, hostage/barricade rescue situation! This was a group of Bible students, that were attacked by the ATF for alleged violations of some firearms laws on February 28th. These are people that took the communion, twice a day. The Lord's supper. Who does that? These are people who read the Bible for hours! Who had every line marked, every word. And thought they were right. As far as I'm concerned, only di-, way to deal with 'em is, approach it on that level, and that's what Phillip and I tried to do. So the pressure and harassment were counterproductive; the vilification- saying David is wicked and evil- what do you think that does to the inside? Even if they were wrong, what does it do- just solidifies them. Right? "Blessed are you when they say all manner of evil against you." In other words, even on a tactical level, everything done, was stupid, in terms of a dedicated religious group. It was the opposite. And finally, the attack on the 29th, was the worst of all. Why? Because sticks and stones can break my bones, right, but words can never hurt me? Well, CS gas, is the sticks and stones. And tanks coming in. Now what was David doing the night before the tanks came in? We're talking about April 19th, maybe about nine in the evening? He had written this letter on Wednesday. Sunday night, he was working on this manuscript. If you read this letter, in which he does mention, uh, Phillip and me, and talks about giving us the copy of it, which at least showed he had enough respect for us to think we would read it- you know, and maybe comment intelligently on it and say, well, this does, you know, say something- this is an incredible letter. Uh- I think we even have copies, if some of you don't have it. But if you don't have this letter, this is the last, sort of, living communication of David Koresh. It's a, incredible-y interesting letter from any standpoint. But among other things he says... that he, is going to be given over into the hands of men, that he's coming out, and he's gonna be arrested, and he worked it out with DeGuerin and Zimmerman- he was coming out. And he says, "I know that I will be made a spectacle of, and people will be concerned about the truth- will not be concerned about the truth of God, but the bizarrity of me in the flesh." I think that's fairly perceptive. Do you think that "Current Affair" would have wanted maybe an interview from jail, with David Koresh? And would they have asked him about, Isaiah 59, verse 3, and what that might mean? Or would they have asked him about what? Are we talking sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll, or are we talking Scriptural exegesis? David knew that! Fairly intelligent comment here. He says, "I thank my Father that he's granted me the chance to do this." I thought David thought he was God! Do you realize that Edward Dennis, on October 8th, summarizing the entire FBI-Justice Department investigation, here was his final sentence, press conference, October 8th: "In the final analysis, we simply didn't know what to do, with a man who thought he was God." Now that's interesting.  That shows- I don't want to be sarcastic, but why not?- that shows some in-depth study, of David's teaching. Here he says, "I thank my Father." I wonder who that might that be then? If he's God, then who is he thanking? And, uh, you know, who is Yahweh? You know, Jehovah, and so forth. You know why they thought he thought he was God? Because he adapted, the prophecies of Isaiah, where Isaiah says, "Thus says the Lord," and then goes, "I will do this, I will do this, I will do this?" And David would write that, and say, look, it says, "I will do this, I will- I will exercise my wrath upon Babylon." I, I, I, that, "thus says the Lord," David wrote it, therefore he thinks he's God. If you had read any of it, he says, "and you should listen to my servant David." I wonder who that was? In other words, this is really interesting, isn't it? Here David is thanking his Father but he's supposed to be the Father, or, you know. And then he says, "I will do this, but listen to my servant David." Maybe that was David Thibodeau, you think that could have been David Thibodeau? You know, you see what I'm saying? In other words, nobody was reading this stuff carefully. Did anybody sit down and really say, now what is this man trying to say?

Now- he says, "I'm working night and day," and, you know, uh, so forth. Now on the day of the fire, Jeff Jamar said, "We have absolute evidence-" he's the head of the FBI operation here- "We have absolute evidence," absolute- he said it on Nightline, he said it on Larry King, and he said it on a couple of the network news shows. Absolute evidence that David was not working on the manuscript. Many of you have a copy of the manuscript. Right? And we know, even who typed it and when it was typed, and he was working on it, right? Now- you want to know the last words of David Koresh, that are recorded, at least? They're pretty interesting. Look at the last page of the manuscript. You know what he says? He quotes Joel. "Gather the bridegroom, gather the children, assemble the people, let them come out of their closet." And then he gives a commentary on it. This is what he often did: he quotes a Scripture, then he explains it. Applies it, as he understood it. And I don't have it with me, but I can paraphrase it. He says, "Isn't it time, for us to come out and be revealed to the world, as those who love Christ, in righteousness." Those are his last words. Sunday night, about 9:30 in the evening. Now what happened the next morning then? David, was trying to figure out what God wanted, the whole time. Now- let's say that you decided God wanted you finally to reveal your message to the world- You will go to jail, and let everybody, say what they want, but you got the message, that's what he had decided, we had, worked with him on that. You know, why don't you separate yourself from the message. He, he agreed. He's gonna do that. Dick DeGuerin and Jack Zimmerman had worked out all the legal things. It was worked out! He was coming out! You see?

Now- he thought, God wants that! Right? I'm gonna do it. He said, "I thank God, I'm gonna do it." If tanks come next morning, five o'clock in the morning, and start knocking holes in, what do you do? Do you get out your computer? Say, "Oh, I think I will, today, write the Second Seal, of the manuscript. This must be what God wants me to do," as you're looking out the hole and tear gas is coming in? No, what do you decide? You decide, I guess God didn't want, the manuscript to be written. Why? Because He's allowing this to happen. This is how David thought. He didn't have it all written out. He had a general idea of what was supposed to happen. But not the specifics. I've got tapes of him in '85, and he says all this is supposed to take place in Israel, in another country even. But then when he got attacked here, he began to think, well maybe it's supposed to be here, you see. Now that was the variation, that was the variable. David was coming out. His last words are, "I'm coming out." His last letter says, "I'm working night and day on this manuscript." That's the, triple tragedy of this thing. The first thing, February 28th should have never happened. That's where we start, right? Fifty-one days, tragedy number two, you harass and vilify somebody, and pressure them. And where do you get? Well, where we got. And the third big mistake, going on on April 19th, when he said, "All I'm waiting for, for fifty-one days, is my word from God." You understand what this is? (holds up papers, some drop) Here goes my- actually these notes have nothing on them! Huh huh! They're just paper. (holds up copy of Koresh letter) This is, according to David, his word from God. Read it!

So- what am I saying? I'm saying, two things. In summary. First: this is not new. You choose your side. I'll choose my side. I'll decide, who I think, the Bible allocu-, allegorically refers to as the Babylonians, you decide who you think. I'll decide who I think are the righteous, you decide what you think. I'm not gonna tell you that. That's up to you. But I'm telling you it's not an ol- it's not a new conflict, it's an old conflict. Martyrs, Jews, Gentiles, Christians, throughout the ages. My name is James Tabor; have you ever heard of the Taborites? What happened to the Taborites? They're not my followers! But they lived in Bohemia! In the year 1516, and they went up on a mountain and guess what happened to them. They were burnt out and all killed. What were they? Radical Reformation types that said, let's go back to the Bible and so on. So maybe I have this in my blood, you think? Anyway- the point is, this is an old story. The old story is that the authorities convront, the minority, and, choose you this day, as Joshua said, which side is which. You see? That's not what I'm here to tell you. But, that's my first point.

Second point: is if you want to deal with it, I could have said everything I did, and did everything I did- whether I took sides or not. As far as Mt. Carmel. That is, all we were talking about finally, is how do you communicate with somebody. Do you say, nyah-nyah-nyah, or come out with your hands up, or you better come out or I'll run over your car? Or I'll shoot your dog? Or I'll moon your kid? Does that really do anything? To a religious group that takes the holy communion? In the morning? And in the evening, every day? Is that gonna make them, "Oh, we better go out to those people!" It doesn't, you see? So it didn't really matter what side I was on, all Phillip and I were saying, is let's communicate, on the only level David ever wants to communicate. If any of you have ever talked to David, I bet the Bible was brought up. Was it not? I bet even if you went fishing with him! I don't know, I never went fishing with him, but I think I've heard him say, you know, I nee-, "Let's go fishing! We can talk about, uh, Isaiah 53, or something," you know? This is David! So, uh, anyway- that's my position. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sad, sad, sad. Bad, bad, bad. [applause]