April 19, 1995: Attorney Jack Zimmerman

Pam Hawkins: ...And, uh, a great way of doing that, is to reach the American people, and I want to bring forward now Mr. Jack Zimmerman- As you know, this is, this is really not easy for Mr. Zimmerman. He's been- when he was here before, he came into a- home- and he met with his client- And, uh, this is, this is difficult for him. He has not been able to put this away, he has not been able to put it aside. He could just turn away from it and, and make a, you know, spend his time doing other- He could be off, off making money right now. But he is here, he has something to say. And, uh, I appreciate him being here. He was very eloquent last night, uh, for the television cameras. And so, uh, Mr. Zimmerman, will you come forward please while I talk- I'm going to speak to him now.

(turns to Engelman) And did you, did you want to give an introduction also? OK.

And Ron Engelman, I don't think Ron Engelman needs any introduction! I mean- This is our emcee, folks! Ron Engelman. And most of you know him. For those of you who don't, he was a radio, uh, talk show host in Dallas. And, uh, he raised a little,uh, ire, because he tried to help the situation here. And he's a hero to many of us- most of us- all of us! So here, there you go!

I think the question really is- thank you very much- why? You look out here and you say why. Why did this happen? Why did over 80 people lose their lives here at the hands of the government? Was it some sinister plot that the Branch Davidians had, that they were going to foist upon us, the American public? Or was it very simple, was it very simply that the ATF felt they needed some film footage, of coming here and getting the Branch Davidians down on their face and going through, because they were about to go before the Senate Budget Committee and they needed some good film footage and TV coverage.

Did Robert Rodriguez, the undercover agent that was here- was living right over there- did he tell the truth? Did he go to the ATF and he told the ATF, his superiors, that, the Branch Davidians were peaceful? The Branch Davidians were nonviolent? And then the ATF decided to, take advantage of that, and this is the outcome of it?

You know, in the affidavit, there was a letter in the affidavit that said the Branch Davidians planned on doing something in Waco, that would make the Los Angeles riots pale in comparison. The problem is, this thing was dated three weeks before the riots took place in Los Angeles. But that's not what happened. What happened was the government did something that made the Los Angeles riot small in comparison.

They showed- as you can see, right here- they showed the entire world of the brutality the US, the United States government was capable of. Last night I was watching the news, and I saw something I'd never thought that I'd see before on the news. It was a survey. And the survey said simply, 56% of the citizens of the United States of America, do not trust the United States government. That's a pretty heavy thing to say! 33% do trust them, and the other 12% are kind of ambivalent or have, mixed emotions. But the point is, what we're looking at here today, is, ugly, ugly truth, of how brutal our government can be to our own people. And this is something we have to remember forever. And Reverend Otwell was absolutely right. We all have blood on our hands because of it. And because we stood there at, at Satellite City, two miles away, and didn't come in, didn't force ourselves in. We were over there on T-Shirt Hill, standing there looking at binoculars, just barely seeing the outline of the roof of Mt. Carmel. And not, making our stand, making the government know, how we feel. The government lied and lied and lied, and the Branch Davidians saw those lies and heard those lies, right here in Mt. Carmel.

I talked to Sue Johnson yesterday. Sue Johnson is the, sister, of Steve Schneider. Who was, a right-hand-man for David Koresh. Steve Schneider, and David Koresh got the government to give them some batteries for a flashlight or something, they jury-rigged the batteries, and got a cellular phone that they had to work, and he called his sister. They wanted my phone number, they wanted to call me, they wanted to talk to me. At one o'clock in the morning, I got a call from Dick DeGuerin, saying to expect a call from David Koresh, didn't know what he wanted to talk about, but would appreciate it if I called him back. David Koresh's call never did come, their batteries wore down before, uh, he could make the phone call to me. Yesterday, Sue Johnson told me what, what it was Steve Schneider and David Koresh wanted to talk to me about. They wanted me to do something, whatever I could, over the radio, because they were afraid. They were afraid, that the government was going to kill them. And that's exactly what Steve Schneider told his sister, the night that he called her at midnight. "Sue, I'm afraid. I'm afraid that the government doesn't want us to come out of this alive." He was absolutely right. And our hands are not clean. Because it was us, it was our responsibility. The government's supposed to be working for us. Obviously, they're not. They're working on us.

I'd like now to introduce a gentleman that, uh, did everything he could. He and another attorney, Dick DeGuerin. Jack Zimmerman, and Dick DeGuerin, went into Mt. Carmel, they entered this building, and they entered it prior to it being burned, and they talked with Steve Schneider, they talked with David Koresh, they talked with a number of the other Branch Davidians. They saw the bullet holes in this building, they know the bullet holes entered from the roof, not exited from the roof. They know, they saw, the bullet holes that entered from the outside, indiscriminately firing through the walls. Ladies and gentleman, I, I'd like to introduce a, an attorney that, uh, tried his best to help bring this to a peaceful conclusion. One that, obviously the government didn't want it to come to. Please welcome Jack Zimmerman. [applause]

Let me begin by telling you that I take a back seat to no one in this ground here, about standing up for what's right. Thirty years as an officer in the Marines, and, while it was- it may not have been successful, Mr. Otwell, I did stand, uh, and I did go in.

But enough about, uh, me. I think that the remembrance that we have today should be for the victims. I want to talk to you a little bit, about, those people. They are the most important ones. You can rail at the government, but I think particularly with our members of the media here, the message that has not been transmitted to the people of the United States, at least from my travels around speaking on this subject, from coast to coast, is that people really don't know what kind of persons the Branch Davidians were. You'd think that they had horns coming out of their heads. Uh, that they were some kind of abnormal person.

Let me tell you about two people from Wisconsin. Steve and Judy Schneider. They were, in my opinion, from having spent two full days, intensively talking to Steve, and then many hours talking with Judy, and then spending many, many hours with their families, including personal visits to their homes in Wisconsin. Let me tell you about Steve and Judy Schneider, and their daughter, their two-year-old daughter Mayanah.

First of all, they were educated people- Steve was a college graduate. They were working people. Judy had worked, been out in the workforce. These were not people that just sat around and were lazy and didn't contribute to society. They came from good families! You talk to Sue Johnson, as, as was just mentioned. And you talk to her husband Tom. And you talk to Wayne and Karen Peterson, Judy's brother and sister-in-law. And you talk to their parents. And you see, by being in their houses, as I was in their homes in Wisconsin, and you see what kind of people they were. They were decent people. They were peaceful people. And they were religious people.

Now, I first met Steve Schneider on April the first- went inside- and was astonished at what I saw. To set the scene for those of you who don't remember, the electricity had been off for almost three weeks. There was no electricity, there was no running water, there was no plumbing. They had been isolated and they were, under siege. Some people say, the Branch Davidians were keeping hostages. Just the opposite. The hostages, were being kept by the government.

And, instead of seeing someone who was fretting, worried, and, uh, emotionally unstable, instead I saw Steve Schneider who was calm, he was confident, and what was most surprising to me, because of my Marine Corps background, was how well-groomed he was, how clean he was, how he managed to do that. It just struck men as a first impression. He had on a clean long-sleeve shirt that looked like it had just come from the laundry. He had on a pair of blue jeans and tennis shoes, just like you and I would wear. He was well-groomed, he had a haircut, and he was, articulate, persuasive, and calm.

Judy, was the same way. We spoke for some period of time. She had a wound to her hand, she had been shot in, in one of her fingers. It had become

Ron Engelman: Thank you, Mr Zimmerman, I appreciate that, uh, insight that only he and Dick DeGuerin know. And, uh, are, are.