Newsgroups: soc.support.youth.gay-lesbian-bi
From: Miguelito 
Subject: Re: Need Advice
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:02:13 GMT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Message-ID: <35874af1.24964366@news.qut.edu.au>
References: <3576eee1.4336034@news.qut.edu.au>

Hi Chris,

Your post touched me quite a bit, probably because to some extent I feel
very closely to what you're saying here. So in a way my reply is for you
and for me too... =-)

> I've had sex with both, my first time with a guy at 17, and my first 
> time with a woman at 19. I've always liked the idea of sex with other 
> guys, but I never could imagine myself having any sort of "relationship" 
> with a guy. I mean, you have relationships with women. You date them, 
> marry them, love them.

You can date, "marry" and love a guy too. The big problem, as I see it, is
that there's no societal 'construction' around a homosexual relationship.
There's a societal support, approval and structure around heterosexual
marriage that is non-existant in the homosexual case. Even if you get full
and heartfelt approval by your close ones regarding your relationship with
your partner, there's no real support structure and we are pretty much left
on ourselves to define our scheme of things. This is in principle nice and
good, but it's also tremendously hard in the long run.

The secret, I think, is to have a COMMON PROJECT, something you two are
building together. In the heterosexual case it's all too obvious most of
the time: a family, get a picket fence house, have children... But in our
case it's a little different. We might want to mimick the heterosexual
scheme by adopting children and so on (which is fine by me, btw) or we
might create our own values. No relationship, homosexual or otherwise, is
sustainable without this basic common project, I don't think. If nothing
like that exists then the structure becomes really unstable, you worry
about discussing this or that because it might end up a relationship or
whatever. If such a common goal exists then you can freely discuss what
bothers you in the relationship and things like that because there are
things that keep you two together anyway. Going through difficult times
together makes the relationship grow.

> I asked one of my good friends a couple of years ago about this. His 
> basic take was that you don't make a life decision without research. 
> What's research for this? Dating. Sex. Have sex with 20 guys and 20 
> girls. (Safely, of course.) The whole thing is very complicated because 
> it's hard enough trying to find a person you really enjoy. 

I absolutely agree. My personal experience is that there's no real
difference between a guy and a woman in terms of "matching ease", ie it's
not necessarily easier to find a girl you get along with well.

> Wondering what sex they will be is worse.

Agreed.

> Who do you think about when you masturbate? Is it guys? Girls? Both? 
> Although every psychiatrist will tell you that people fantasize about 
> things that they would never do in real life, you also think about 
> things that really turns you on. Sometimes I think about girls, but 
> mostly I get off on guys. I also stress about that. A lot.

Same here. I've been thinking about this too. Sometimes I wonder "What if I
marry a girl, sexual attraction wouldn't really be there (mostly), but then
I'd get a lot of other things I'd like to get, like kids, a picket fence
etc etc..." I think that sexual attraction is an indispensable part of the
equation though, odd as it may seem (maybe not that odd...).

> I really like women, but I don't think about women sexually a lot. I
> do enjoy sex with women, but I have to have feelings about her to 
> enjoy it.

Yes. Same here.

> I don't have to have that for a guy. I can do one-night-stands all week
> long with guys (the lack of emotion is actually preferable).

What if you actually have an emotional link with a guy? That's THE one
thing I discovered when I came out. I had had girlfriends and one that I
was in love with, but after coming out I discovered how powerful the
combination of love and sexual attraction can be, it can lift you up in the
air, so to speak... ;-)

> I'd love to be one of those walking hard-on guys who fantasizes 
> about every girl he meets.

I've always wanted to be like that too. Sometime I'm awestruck when I walk
around campus and I see these (very cute) hunks lusting after the women and
I think to myself: "Oh, you, the gorgeous one, please tell me how can you
possibly like women so much, I want to know..." =-)

But then you can fantasize about being this or that. I fantasize about
being smarter, nicer, more attractive, more whatever... Truth is: I waste
too much time fantasizing and I should stop doing that and see what I'VE
GOT. And everyone has got a lot, it's just a matter of discovering it. This
sounds stupid and taken from a self-help book, but it's true.

> The truth is, I really don't like the gay community. I don't like guys
> who act like girls. If you're a guy, that means something. That dictates
> how you act and how you dress, no matter what sex organs you like.

Everyone is different. You might not like guys who are effiminate. I don't
find them very attractive myself. I don't like "forcefully butch" guys
either.

> Guys who are "openly gay" get on my nerves, with the lisping and the
> femenine gestures. Gay people will say I'm just "being closeted". I say
> I'm being realistic.

Realistic? Whatever that means... No, I don't think you're being realistic
but holding on to your set of preconceptions. It's obvious that you are
bothered by effiminate people. If I may say so, maybe it's because you see
something in them that you don't like about yourself and that's why they
bug you so much. This said, there's nothing bad with liking masculine guys.

Regarding being openly gay, you don't have to go about lisping and whatnot
to do that. Sometimes I feel like putting a pink triangle on my backpack. 
It's there most of the time, actually. Some people look at me weird when
they see that, like "Uh... You don't look gay..." or something. I'm as
openly gay as one can be, I think, which doesn't mean shouting "I'm a
faggot" on the street or things like that, so to speak...

> I've pretty much decided that I want to marry a bisexual woman.

Well, maybe you will, but don't ditch the oportunities life gives you to
be happy because you have this preconceived scheme of things. You have to
listen to life and be aware of the oportunities it brings to your door and
be swift and grab them.

> Bi people are the only ones who understand other bi people.

I wholeheartedly agree.

> Those groups (for whatever reason), don't believe bi people truly exist. 
> So fuck them and their close-mindedness. 

Those groups are usually close-minded as you say. Actually, some people
aren't. Ask a straight person (*any* straight person) if they can
understand a gay person. They can accept gays but understand deep in their
hearts that a man can be sexually attracted to another man? That's highly
unlikely. Same goes for a gay and a bi. Unless you FEEL it, it's really
difficult to understand deep inside what it all means.

I agree that the gay community members (community? wonder what that means)
should be more accepting of "different perspectives" since they themselves
have been victims of non-acceptance.  But this is not usually the case, as
you say.

BTW, I consider myself gay (although I try to avoid labels) because I only
feel true sexual attraction towards men.

> People are just sexual and would probably have sex with both if they got
> over their fears about it.

Eh well... maybe, but then as much as I've wanted to like women, I prefer
men.

> Bottom line is that you have to discover yourself by actually doing. No 
> one ever figured out what they liked by sitting around. 

Yes yes yes, agreed.

Anyway... I really like this piece:

	"...we can live any way we want.  people take vows of poverty,
  chastity, and obedience--even of silence--by choice.  the thing is to
  stalk your calling in a certain skilled and supple way, to locate the most
  tender and live spot and plug into that pulse.  this is yielding, not
  fighting.  a weasel doesn't "attack" anything; a weasel lives as he's
  meant to, yielding at every moment to the perfect freedom of single
  necessity.
	i think it would be well, and proper, and obedient, and pure, to
  grasp your one necessity and not let it go, to dangle from it limp
  wherever it takes you.  then even death, where you're going no matter how
  you live, cannot you part.  seize it and let it seize you up aloft even,
  till your eyes burn out and drop; let your musky flesh fall off in shreds,
  and let your very bones unhinge and scatter, loosened over fields, over
  fields and woods, lightly thoughtless, from any height at all, from as
  high as eagles."

  -- annie dillard "living like weasels"

Take care.

Miguel
(still in Japan... btw, the boys in Tokyo are soooo beautiful! :-) )

-- 
Miguel Barrio				"Be free, love who you will,
mailto:miguelito@pobox.com		 and be who you are."
http://pobox.com/~miguelito		 -- Brandon Lacy

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