Gregory (Pro-Xander) & Anne's (Pro-Angel)
from the message board

(Gregory) - "I back Xander all the way in most things. First off, Cordy does deserve to get more credit for actually caring about Xander when he still is obsessed with Buffy and a little bit with Willow too. But that's not the point of my message. First off, Angel IS a killer, no matter which angle it's looked at from. A a vampire, as far as Joss Whedon goes, is little more then a human with the personality of a bloodthirsty nocturnal marauder with a few supernatural side effects (No reflection, immortality, invitation rite, ect.). When they are changed the body, and demon with in, still has the personality and memories of their mortal life. Angel, as a vampire, was considered one of the most violent and demonic creatures even by the master's standards. This guy, in his vampiric state, is a big, scary, demon, no matter which way Buffy paints it. The owner of this site also said it, obviously Angel has some great evil within himself even though he may act like a nice enough sort. Spike, for example, isn't really that nasty of a creature. He's tough, obviously, but basically does everything just for Drusilla. This is his human personality, in my opinion. It's just that his bad traits, like violence and homocidal tendencies along with the blood lust, is brought out by the demon. The same goes with Angel, if he were nastier in life he would have done the same things as he did without his soul. The guy is a killer, maybe real deep down, but it's still there. He's evil, plain and simple. The nice part of him, closer to the surface, is what we see when he retains a human soul. But the true evil within him is just brought out by the demon, not created from it. That's my opinion. Plus in regard to the message that stated how it was inevitable that Buffy would grow old and that this *minor* problem could be solved by making her a vampire, take a look at the episode entitled "Nightmares" and just wonder how miserable Buffy would be having to live with the idea of being Undead, with or without her soul. Plus I feel that Angel only *loves* Buffy in order to illeviate his own guilt for murdering his family, among the countless others. I don't think he genuinely loves her, per se, only that he wanted to, while having a soul, make her happy in order to remove some of his guilt. And in a somewhat twisted sense, maybe he lost his soul because he saw how happy Buffy was while they were making love that his guilt was illeviated and he was truly happy because he made her truly happy. Plus the spell states that he's supposed to always feel guilty, not just miserably. Maybe sense he didn't feel guilty while he made her happy that was what triggered him to lose his own soul, which is probably the only thing he really did care about. Buffy was just another of his obsessions both before and after he was had a soul and not true love. I think that Angel is really, behind the mask of soul and demon, just selfish. He cares about his own torment and guilt rather then what he actually did to those poor people, like Cordielia and the poor sap she ran over. Just because a person is 240 years old doesn't mean that they are emotionally mature and genuinely thoughful of others and their suffering. But I do believe that Xander is. Well, maybe not mature, but I do think that he genuinely cares about the people out there and doesn't want to see them eaten by a fanged monster. And I do beleive Xander had Buffy's best interest when not disclosing the facts behind Willow's second attempt at the restoration of Angel's soul. I like what Angel does, killing other vampires and such, but I don't like why he does it and why he seems to be in *love* with Buffy. He may save her, but who is he really trying to save?"

(Anne) - "Angel loves Buffy...I don't know how you can paint THAT any other way. She doesn't love Xander...and I don't know how you can paint THAT any other way, she said it herself. If Angel and Buffy didn't love each other, then they wouldn't have still been together after everything they had been through. Even at the end of Becoming pt2, she forgave him...you could tell. Xander blatantly lied to her though...he didn't tell her that willow was trying the spell again, and he DIDN'T have a demon in him. Also, if you're gonna quote Joss' ideas about vampires, atleast realize that his ideas are in the show, since it's his show, and we have been told that, on more than one occasion, "When you become a vampire, the demon gets your body, but it doesn't get your soul...that's gone." If your soul isn't what makes you who you are, then I honestly don't know what does!"

(Gregory) - "Your mind makes you who you are. The mind decides what they are capable of, the soul just gives us our limits of humanity. Our soul doesn't think, it gives us out boundries of good and evil. It doesn't make our decisions and tell us what to do, it just keep us humane. Without our soul we may still be able to contemplate Quantum Physics but we would never really care about it or anything accept our mind's carnal and animalistic desires. All the demon does is bring out the worst in ourselves, the worst our mind can devise. When you say the demons gets out body, well, our mind is within our body. It keeps us from humping women's legs at a party or nailing a puppy to what ever it is that the sick demon nailed it to. A creature without a soul, such as with Angeles, would care only about their own desires. But since the soul is replaced by a demon, their mind is influenced to do the greatest evil that his very own mind could devise, the same mind he retained as Angel. That is why he remembered not having a soul since he was influenced, not controlled, and they both had the same brain. Angel obviously had a great deal of evil within his own mind, the demon inside of him brought it out and when his soul wasn't there to repress the evil and encourage the good. Then his soul was restored so his soul repressed both the demon and the evil within, but that doesn't mean that his soul controlled him. It, like the demon, merely influenced his mind to be humane. Like in "The Pack". Xander's animal side was brought out, not controlled, by the hyena. That's why he attacked Buffy, it was in his mind not his soul. His soul was repressed and didn't repress his dark side like it usually does. But we can't really see what his true dark side was since it was directed to do things like prey on the weak. But I'm fairly for certain that his rather pathetic dark side wouldn't butcher Buffy's friends. He may, on the other hand, have his way with her, in a full body sense, then move on to something else like the girls locker room. Why, because his mind is horny and his soul represses that as best as it can. I'm not saying that it is good to be a pervert, I'm saying this is better then Angel's severely wicked dark side. His mind made him do it, the devil just suggested it. And the "Angel loves Buffy" thing, who is to say that he's really in love with her. Maybe he just trying to illeviate his own guilt by becoming partners with the biggest threat to the creatures that he hates. I believe that all he wants is his own salvation, which I'm positive that he would do anything to attain. Who wouldn't? What better road to salvation for a vampire then having a Slayer forgive him. You can't have sex with someone you think is a demonic killer, is doesn't work that way. Again, who was he really trying to save all those times, Buffy or himself. Plus, in all actuality, how much damage can really be done to a vampire. They are either torched, burned, or staked. A human, like darla said, has so many parts and so few bullets. Xander has to be twice as brave as Angel because he is significantly more easily killed. A bullet almost anywhere and a person still runs a high risk of bleeding to dead. We are frail, vampires are not. Obviously Xander would do anything for Buffy, but if you look at it objectively Angel might not. Xander was going to fight the Master, the Flea was going to try and bring down the Lion all for love. Angel sat on his rear at home moping all be cause he might get a little dead from attacking the Master. In my opinion, dying is a small sacrifice if you have to do it for the one you love (How sappy). Maybe Xander thought that too, or twice (Forgive the pun) if you remember when he was about to run after the Judge. Again, same principle. And I think he didn't tell Buffy about the second attempt at the ritual because she would have most certainly died. Whether or not this was selfish, which in my opinion it wasn't, he still saved her life. In all honestly I think he did it because of three reasons: to bring Angel to justice (FINALLY), to save Buffy (YAY), and because he was jealous(big whoop). But either way, he still saved her in the long run even if she never forgives him. I think she will because if you take a look at "Passion", she said Xander was right when he said he was glade that Giles was going to kill Angel. And now I'm saying, for the sake of Justice, "It's about time somebody did. And I had hoped to write a shorter message this time... Beleive it or not, I left some stuff out. First off, you don't know how I can paint Angel's love for Buffy any other way other then the fact that he loves her. Well, for once, I have a simple reply. EASY. People these days fall in *love* for sex, money, LONLINESS, or even boredom. Why can't a person act like they've fallen for another person in order to save their unholy immortal soul. Is Salvation a good enough reason to act like that, if money and sex are good enough for some people, maybe even Angel. And the other part where you said that Buffy doesn't really love Xander, she even said it. Well, I don't know about you, but a lot of people don't truly know what they say. It's difficult to know if you are in love with some one. That may sound stupid, but it's actualy sound. I didn't know what I had a very long time ago until I lost it. Now I kick myself, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run back to it since my stubborn pride, or lack there of, clouds my thought. But I'm not saying that she's in *love* or not in love with him, only that she doesn't really see him for what he truly is or what he really is capable of doing for her. But, then again, she doesn't really see Angel for the demonic beast that he truly is, so I'm not terribly surprised."

(Anne) - "Okay, only one reply...you said that people can fall in love for sex, money, lonliness, yadda yadda yadda. Well, that's not love, it's called lust. And obviously they didn't just fall in lust, or we would have had a hell bent Angelus from season one. I do have one more LAME point to make. I honestly do believe that no matter what, Xander and Buffy will not end up together. Now, that's not coming from the fact that I think she should be with Angel, it's coming with Willow in mind. There is like a best friend pact between girls out there, that in no circumstances, do you go out with your best friends crush. That is unless of course, it's three years after they have started dating someone else...continuously. So, Buffy can't go out with Xander. She would be breaking that pact. It doesn't matter that Willow is dating Oz, because her crush on Xander is still too fresh...even if Willow does say that Buffy should date him, she can't. Also, there's Cordy. Who, for a while there was not that great of a person, but she is now and I think that she really cares about Xander...and Xander cares about her. Anyways, they are a comic but cute couple atleast they are fun to watch. Sorry...this WAS gonna be really short, like just my little thing about love/lust...but oh well."

(Gregory) - "A decent point as far as the pact between friends go. But... there's always a "but"... there is a very far cry from Obsession and Love. It is very easy to figure out that obviously Angeles had a very unhealthy obsession with Buffy after his soul was lost. The guy thought of nothing else, with the acception of "doing" Drusilla and destroying the world which can take up alot of thought but you catch my drift. So who's to say that while Angel retained a soul he was nothing more then just obsessed with Buffy rather then true, unadulterated, love. And as far as you thinking that Xander and Buffy won't end up together...I completely agree! That doesn't mean I have to like it. At the very least I think Xander and Willow should end up together, that would make my day."

(Anne) - "Okay...yes, Xander and Willow would be cute, but so is Xander and Cordy, and Willow and Oz. On another note...as far as your commment that Angel is like that because it was his mind telling him to do the evil stuff, that Angel is an evil person deep down. Even if Willow, Xander, Cordy, Giles, even Buffy were made into a vampire, they would kill people. It's what vampires do. Especially if Buffy were made into a vampire, she kills now, she maims now, it may be on the behalf of good, but she does it. She also knows how to torture someone...remember the "When She was Bad"? The season premier when she tortured that one vampire lady into telling her and Angel where Willow, Cordy, Giles, etc were, she knows how to do it...she thinks of ways to do it...she said so herself. In Halloween, she said, and I know I'm very close to correct: "While other girls are thinking about hair and makeovers, you wanna know what I think about? Ambush tactics." So maybe Buffy would be an even worse vampire than Angelus was...maybe deep down Willow thinks of aweful ways to kill people...may be not, because there is no way to prove at all that Angel ever thought that way...maybe the demon that was put into him when his soul was taken away was demented...and that's why he did those things. Even Druscilla was this really holy child until the day she was made into a vampire. True, he did make her insane, that was an obsession on the DEMON'S part, but there is no saying that Angel was a part of it. One more thing...Angelus (the demon) said to Spike that the reason that he wanted to hurt Buffy was because he made her feel human...only love can make a person feel truly human! Also, when Angelus killed Willow's fishies, and Willow went to Buffy's house, Buffy admited to her that even with everything going on, she still had the impulse to want to run to Angel...obviously she didn't blame him. Okay, last thing, I promise. If they were so hell bent on destroying each other, and not meant to be, why didn't they kill each other earlier? And, what would the chances be that Angel would have his soul restored by the gypsie clan? That's not very likely, and why would something have taken over Willow so that she could make sure to restore Angel's soul again???? Everything happens for a reason, no question about it. Also, Whistler likes Angel...he wouldn't have allowed him to get involved with Buffy in the first place, unless maybe he was sent there to make Angel get out of the sewars and begin helping her, so that they would meet. (Quincidence? I think not!!!!!!!!!!!) P.S. Don't even try and say that Jennie Calander (Janna)had nothing to do with the second restoring of his soul either. Something took over Willow, otherwise she never would have finished the spell in time. Once again, something happened for a reason!!!! :-Þ"

(Gregory) - "Xander and Cordy are annoying, but that doesn't make them less hilarious, by the way. One the second part I didn't say it was Angel's mind telling him to do evil things, it was the demon within him influencing his mind to do the wicked things that he may not have ever necessarily thought about in his mortal life but was morally capable of when he didn't retain a conscience. It was within Angel's capabilities to be a wicked son of a bitch, the demon just brought it out. On a side note, a person does not necessarily have to think about awful ways to butcher people, it only needs to be within their capabilities to have it brought out. And I'm sure that if Buffy, Xander, and the others were turned into vampires they would be evil. They would kill and maime, it's what they do. Birds gotta swim, Fish has gotta fly (This is a joke and not a mistake.) BUT none of them would be so hellbent on hurting people for the sake of hurting them. Angel took Buffy's insides, pulled them out, then dragged them down into hell with him. He was wicked, not just homocidal. Plus if the others were turned into vampires I'm positive the Judge would have been able to torch them, while Angel is a true creature of evil. Like I said, Xander's bad side is probably little more then a pervert with the blood lust that all vampires have. Buffy probably would be another story. She would be a lot like Angel but I doubt she would hurt and torture, like Angel did, the people she liked. She would probably do the things Angel did to the people he, in a sense, cared about but she would do them to people she didn't. I don't really know for sure, it's just an educated guess. I've said before that Angel may have only cared about his own soul and his salvation. Why would a Vampire care about his own salvation, obviously Buffy made him think more about saving his own soul then he would had he just been Angeles. And that's why he felt more human, vampires are demons and thus don't care about salvation. It might not have been true love on his part. And I never did say that Buffy wasn't in love with Angel, I think she is but I also think that it is poor judgement on her part even from the beginning of their fling. Vampires and Slayers don't mix. IT'S A FACT!!! They kill each other, end of story. My next counter attack is that Buffy didn't kill Angel because she was in love with him. Angel didn't kill her, like he didn't kill Drusilla, because he wanted to hurt her really bad. He was never hellbent on destroying her, only making her loonier then a fruitcake and then probably a demon. Next, Whistler has very little to do with things on the whole scale of their reality. He does not get off his immortal "ass" and we've seen so far that he just offers cryptic advice and points the direction, usually in the most implicated and unfathomable way possible. He said it himself, "We didn't see you comin'," in the second part of Becoming. He couldn't have set something up that he didn't see coming. Plus why would he set Buffy and Angel up if he knew once Angel found true happiness he would go back to being a creep, and he knew that Buffy would be the one to give it to him. So, in a sense, your sating that Whistler wanted to have Angel become a demon again? I doubt it. He didn't think that Buffy was going to fall for Angel, he just figured Angel would do his meager part then just get on with his moaning and groaning. As far as the second attempt at the soul restoration goes, I can't really say much. Shocked? But I do have a theory. First off Jenny Calendar might have had something to do with it, I can't say. The fact is, it could have been any number of the billions of individual spirits who used to be humans that didn't want to see their Earth sucked into hell, and it could have been any number of forces or other celestial beings. An "Angel", perhaps. Or It could have been something of a demonic entity figuring that it was no fun sending something to hell if it enjoys the pain, so he aiding in restoring his soul so Angel would be more fun to mess with. Or it could have been the souls of dead Slayers, which sounds strange enough. I think it was soul that Willow was trying to restore... strangely enough was Angel's soul aiding Willow so he could get back in his own body. Now that may sound like I contradicted everything I have ever said about Angel and his selfish quest for Salvation, which is worthy enough if a person does it right although I don't think Angel is by the way. But as we've all seen in "I only have Eyes for You", it is very hard for a soul to reach forgiveness, and thus a form of salvation. He needed his body back to attone for his eternal sins, so he aided Willow in doing that so he could continue on his way and reach his salvation. We also say that it was possible for a soul to possess a human, so it's possible that alone could have done it. At the very beginning of "Innocence" when he realized what was going on, he said, "Oh no." so it's possible that he would want to get his body back and that would probably be his only chance for a very long time, and thus he would have more sins to attone for. So I think Angel aided Willow in restoring his soul... but that doesn't mean I think that Angel loves Buffy. This is what I think Angel is all about, just trying to releive his own guilt and pay for what he has done. I don't think he's genuinely in love with anything accept that precious soul of his. Just because he pretends to be in *love* with Buffy doesn't mean he is, obviously when he makes her happy it illeviates some of his own guilt so that why he went along with the relationship. When his guilt was completely illeviated while "in the act" his soul flew the coupe." I thought I said I couldn't say much?!

(Anne) - "Okay...you do have a few good points, and there is a possiblility that you are right, I just happen to be really stuck on the whole Angel/Buffy thing...they're just so cute together (And in my perspective, in love) A friend of mine does pose a question for you though. If Angel just wanted to be with Buffy so that he could help heal his own torment, then why didn't he really want to persue a relation ship in the first place? And why was he kinda sceptical about "Doing the deed" with her? Also, if he didn't really love her, why did he give her the Claddagh ring, instead of some other lame present? A Claddagh ring is a sign of affection...of love. He didn't have to give that to her. He wanted to. Because he loves her. Just a few more thoughts. (Wow, this one actually is kinda short!!!)"

(Gregory) - "I just read your message about thrity minutes ago, and for about twenty-five minutes of that I've been cursing you and your friend since you have pulled my entire arguement right out from under me with one question about the Claddagh ring. This is commendable, but I still have a retaliation. First I'll start with the first point about his reluctance to innitiate the relationship. First off, how eager would you be to attempt to get a date with a guy who was trying to kill every being within your species. She's a slayer and can tell when a vampire is present, it was just his dumb luck that she didn't find out sooner. Obviously he could very easily have been afraid for his life since it's her sacred duty to kill him. Plus it would increase the risk of him losing his mortal cover if he were intimate with her and she didn't accept his vampiric state of being, soul or not. Where as if she's more of a casual acquaintence, he has a better chance of staying alive, or undead. Second, about "Doing to deed", he could have been nervous. Not that I know from experience, but a thousand things run through the mind of someone about to do *it*. "Do I have bad breath," or "What if I'm not good," or some such nonesense. Or maybe he knew that it would/might illeviate his own guilt, thus ending the curse and he didn't want that to happen. Now the ring stumped me, and I am impressed. I was completely thrown by this one question. BUT... ha, ha, ha... I actually, believe it or not, came up with a feasible arguement. I'm so proud of myself. Anyway, they say a women's greatest day is the day she gets married. Well, Buffy's seventeen and Angels, well, not, and they obviously can't get married. So he gave her a ring, which is almost the exact same thing as an engagement right, to make her happy. How would you feel if the guy you loved gave you the equivalent to an engagement ring, I bet you'd be really happy. Buffy get's happy, which illeviates Angel's guilt, which makes him happy. Hell, he might have had their whole relationship mentally scripted (And I don't mean in the sense with the writers of the TV show and such, just that he had everything he would ever say planned out months in advance). Obviously he knows how to get a women's attention. He did it throughout his mortal life and immortal unlife. Obviously Darla, already being 200 or something like that, had seen a lot of other types of guys and was very impressed with Angel's animal attractiveness in particular even as a mortal and not the cradle robbing creature of the night he turned out to be. So he knows he can get women, it's like picking fruit of the vine to him. He has 240 years of experience to draw one, like Willow said even if it's only two a years, that's still a lot. And it's apparent to me that a hell of a lot of women find him physically attractive. So he knew he could make her happy, relieving his own guilt, so he did. He got the eternal good looks and the know-how to do so. Plus what would happen when Buffy died. If Angel is really so head-over-feet with her what would he do. Stake himself so he could join her, or go on moping like before. Maybe I'm wrong and he does actually love her, thus removing most of the psycho-babble that I have come up with and leaving room for actual emotion. But I doubt it. And I know my first message said I'm Pro-Xander, which I am all the way, but it really sounds like as I read my old messages that I'm really more Anti-Angel. But I still think Buffy should open her eyes and see what Xander and Angel really are. A goofoff who could make her laugh, or a depressed demon who flip out on her if she did *IT* with him."

(Anne) - "Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God!!! I just wrote this huge thing with a really good point and then my internet provider kicked me off....before I got to post it. I am so upset!!!! Okay, the basic concept was that I don't really think that Buffy should be with Xander or Angel. On Buffy and Xander, all I have to say is No. Then with Angel and Buffy, Buffy would only end up heart broken, unless of course, by some miracle, Angel can become human. But, since Angel won't age, when Buffy is like 40---if Slayers can live that long, Angel would obviously end up leaving her. No matter how much he loves her (in my opinion), that thought is just icky. As Willow put it. "It is kind of novel how he'll stay young and handsome forever, although you'll still get wrinkly and die. And oh, what about the children? I'll be quiet now." Okay, one more thing. In a previous post, I said something about why Angel didn't persue her if he just wanted to eliveate his own guilt, I meant, why, when Buffy went after him, like asking him out in "Reptile Boy" why didn't he go out with her? And why did he try to warn her not to get involved her. He said something like Angel: "This isn't some fairy tale. When I kiss you...you don't wake up from a deep sleep and live happily ever after."Buffy: "No. When you kiss me, I wanna' die." Alrighty, I'm done. BTW, I actually went back and read all of our previous posts, and you do seem really Anti-Angel, not Pro-Xander. Why is that? *s*"

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