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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Tue Nov 03 01:02:49 1998
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Panthera Domesticus> Aloha
Kevin> Lies is truth?
Kevin> Nice font.
Panthera Domesticus> no... the truth is lies...
Panthera Domesticus> the statement is not reversible
Kevin> Explain.
Kevin> Yes, but if truth is lies, then at least some lies must be truth.
Panthera Domesticus> wouldn't you like to believe that...
Kevin> But isn't that contrary to the definition of a lie?
Panthera Domesticus> All lies cannot be truth... even all the various supposed truths cannot all be truth...
Panthera Domesticus> but they can all be lies, quite easily.
Kevin> That doesn't make truth lies.
Kevin> Whichever it is, the truth is true.
Panthera Domesticus> ah... but it might not be any of them...
Kevin> Even if it isn't anything currently conceived.
Panthera Domesticus> and the expense of believing a false truth is greater than not believing a real one
Kevin> Is it?
Kevin> It depends on the truth.
Panthera Domesticus> so it's safer to conclude it's all lies and go do something more entertaining than ponder the meaning of life, the universe and everything
Kevin> Of course not. Pondering doesn't go very far.
Kevin> But...
Panthera Domesticus> incidentally... the meaning of life [...] everything is 42...
Kevin> ;)
Panthera Domesticus> do go on..
Kevin> Take, for instance, the concept that your senses give you reality.
Kevin> (sorry about the delay. I got an IM from my cousin)
Kevin> If you decide that your senses are not true, then you can't do too much. Now, there are two additional things here.
Kevin> First, you can argue that since your perceived reality is persistent, then at least you can modify your perception.
Kevin> And second, and of the opposite viewpoint, you can deny all your senses as being true. If "reality" is reality, then you've lost out on a whole life. If it isn't, then you haven't really gained much through anything anyway.
Panthera Domesticus> I love the way humans tend to devide things into two fundimentally opposed ideas... even if it's not the case...
Kevin> It usually is.
Kevin> Two or three tend to cover most things.
Kevin> And they make it easier for a human mind to comprehend.
Kevin> BTW, I didn't say those were the only viewpoints.
Panthera Domesticus> ease of comprehension does not (and in fact rarely) translate into correctness of comprehension.
Kevin> It depends on the quality of your simplification.
Panthera Domesticus> Anyway... logical deduction leads to the conclusion that I am the only thing in the universe that I know to exist.
Kevin> Often, simplification is really only the method you use to communicate your argument.
Kevin> Yes, Descartes.
Kevin> But you have to make more assumptions.
Panthera Domesticus> not that I necessarily know the nature of my existance... just that I exist...
Panthera Domesticus> I think therefore I am... though I'm not necessarily what I think I am... to put it another way
Kevin> Yes. But, as I said earlier, you have to make more assumptions, or you never do anything.
Kevin> And, indeed, show no reason for thinking about it in the first place.
Panthera Domesticus> what makes you think coming to the conlusion that you (or I) are the only thing that exists would lead one to "never do anything" or be nihilist
Kevin> Because if you are the only thing that exists, then nothing else exists.
Panthera Domesticus>
Kevin> If nothing else exists, then there is no reason to do anything, and no premise to act on in the first place.
Panthera Domesticus> Because I want to
Panthera Domesticus>
Panthera Domesticus> Sounds like a good reason to do something...
Kevin> Because the sole knowledge that one exists doesn't even imply change.
Kevin> So doing something is meaningless.
Panthera Domesticus> I, whatever "I" happens to be, wants to do something... and why not do it...
Kevin> And why would you "want" to do something?
Kevin> That want becomes something other than yourself.
Panthera Domesticus> Who knows... obviously not me... and If I'm all there is neither does anybody else, because there is n't anybody else... so... might as well go with it...
Kevin> Right; I can see that.
Kevin> If you truly are the only thing that exists, then you can do anything you want to.
Panthera Domesticus> Right...
Panthera Domesticus> Or rather that you believe you can do...
Kevin> But, if you aren't, there will be some consequences (good or bad, or both).
Panthera Domesticus> Only if you're a poorl;y adjusted master of the univwerse...
Panthera Domesticus> you should treat the figments of your imagination kindly...
Kevin> No; I'm saying, if you aren't the only thing that exists.
Panthera Domesticus> Or what if you are the only thing that exists but you simply don't have the full perception of all that constitutes you so that, from your limited point of view, it appears that "other" things exist when, in fact, they are just an extention of you
Kevin> Oh, yes. This is the assumption that we've been working off of the whole time. I'm saying, what if that assumption is false?
Panthera Domesticus> Does it matter? True or False... why would your reactions necessarily be different?
Kevin> Because it depends on whether or not the consequences would be affected.
Panthera Domesticus> Why would they be? If you can't understand why you would want to do something you probably wouldn't understand why you'd want to imagine being punished for it either... but you might...
Panthera Domesticus> and it's this spectre of punishment - real or imaginary- which guides your reactions to- real of imaginary- stimulus
Kevin> Yes.
Kevin> But, what have you lost if they're imagined?
Kevin> And, what have you lost if you ignore them and they're real?
Panthera Domesticus> Nothing... one case would be indistinguishable from the next...
Panthera Domesticus> what if they're imagined... you ignore them... and then imagine consquences?
Panthera Domesticus> the effect is the same...
Kevin> Unless you figure out that you're imagining.
Panthera Domesticus> of course it's impossible to determine such a thing...
Kevin> And, of course, if the real world isn't how your imagination would otherwise bring your consequences about.
Panthera Domesticus> How do you know? if you're bored,depraved, et al to imagine that other things exist to motivate you why wouldn't you imagine that things exist to punish you for not obeying those motivations?
Panthera Domesticus> You seem to hold the idea that just because you are the only thing that exists you have some control over your existance...
Kevin> The argument of "what if you are the only thing that exists" is futile.
Panthera Domesticus> Nah... I'm just trying to get you to loosen your grip on reality for a moment and realize it might not actually be there...
Kevin> And leads to any argument's truth.
Kevin> Oh, I'm fully comprehensive of the options philosophy leaves us.
Panthera Domesticus> I don't think you're fully comprehensive of the fact that all options are, more or less, equally probable
Panthera Domesticus> and the only reason you don't is what? it's not terribly useful?
Kevin> They are if you prescribe to the nihilist view.
Kevin> Sorry, late message.
Kevin> The only reason I don't what?
Panthera Domesticus> prescribe tot he nihilist view
Kevin> You sent that message before I sent mine.
Panthera Domesticus> I'm psychic...
Panthera Domesticus> heh heh heh
Kevin> Hm. So, what's your screenname?
Panthera Domesticus> Alt + L S
Kevin> I got it.
Kevin> Layout is in split now.
Kevin> Before I had it in one.
Panthera Domesticus>
Kevin> Well, this is much better.
Panthera Domesticus> ¦¬)
Kevin> What's that?
Panthera Domesticus> s'posed to be a self-satisfied and vaugely patronizing emoticon
Panthera Domesticus> doesn't come across very well in [Comic Sans MS]...
Kevin> So, what's the significance of "Panthera Domesticus"?
Kevin> What genre?
Panthera Domesticus> A while back a friend of mine and I wrote a short series of stories... on of the characters in which was The Bohemian Pygmy Tiger of Death... pretty much, yes...
Kevin> Interesting title. It sounds contrived, though. Was it a comedic thing?
Panthera Domesticus> Other characters included: Black Limestone- Dolomite's Evil Twin, JuanCompos- Dealer of Fine Cheese Apparel, Zaeboola the Unemployed Phantasm, and Booty- The Unfirrendly Chocolate Ghost.
Kevin> I like the Unemployed Phantasm.
Kevin> Did you ever publish any? Or was this just a little private thing?
Panthera Domesticus> actually we never really got around to writing any of them down... it was something with which to amuse ourselves as we drank coffe and played monopoly at a coffee house (which incidentally was the setting of most of the stories)... anyway... the Bohemian Pygmy Tiger of Death looks exactly like the common everyday house cat... except for one thing... it can't purr.
Kevin> Monopoly is cool.
Kevin> So, what does that have to do wtih ..ok...
Kevin> Ah... Thus Panthera Domesticus.
Panthera Domesticus> exactly
Panthera Domesticus> look... I appear to be losing my video card... So I think I need to be going and see if re-booting improves things...
Panthera Domesticus> or display adapter card, rather...
Kevin> Video card? Ok. See you later (yeah, right; like we're ever going to meet again :) )
Panthera Domesticus> Aufwiederlesen