Debunking Hinduism
Part I

Responses:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14*
15
16
17
18

Dialogue 1 - The correct approach to wisdom
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Reply to Hindu - Tuesday, 24-Aug-1999
Hindu: The correct approach is to tell the Hindus about the wisdom behind what they believe and do, so that they can discriminate and move to higher plane of spirituality.
  • Vj ~ The correct approach to wisdom is exposing, through the correct knowledge, what is false to determine truth . This is what the Swami taught and there can be no other way. The mere fact that a Hindu must be told that what he believes in is false makes him angry enough to kill, how can such a static intellect ever grasp any truth?

    Hindu: On the contrary, the approach adopted by Vijai (which is mostly in contrast to majority Arya Samaji in India) can never bring any reform.

  • Vj ~ It was the approach of Swami Dayanand and there was reform, which not only benefited India but the whole world if not through Vedic wisdom as much but certainly through science. India's masses sought the courage through it by starting their fight for independence and now Hindus are ever ready to defend India, a far cry from their cowardly past. There is now better treatment for women and low caste, etc. Instead what we are lacking is more like Ashegan and me, to rid India of Hinduism's shameful and disgusting cowardly past.

    Hindu: However, it can create more tensions among the communities that are essentially the same.

  • Vj ~ As if India or the world was ever short of tensions! A mission of truth to elevate a nation even though it brings tension bares fruits of harmony in the long run, whilst tolerance breeds tensions day after day, year after year, generations after generations, centuries after centuries and ages after ages. History has no shortages of such barbaric events through ignorance and which still continue to plague our world to this day.

    "That is why I say that an ignorant Hindu is the one who does not understand his/her religion well".

  • Vj ~ If you think you are intelligent by making such a statement, then I am at lost to see how an ignorant Hindu can ever come to grasp any truth, while still locked in the abyss of superstition and idol-worship.

    Superstition against Murti Puja (Idol worship)

    Hindu: With your superstitions against murti puja and indiscriminate invalidation of Hindu dharma, you will always be at loss to understand Hindu wisdom.

  • Vj ~ True, especially the "Hindu wisdom" of a bull standing on a turtle holding up the planet we live on.

    Hindu: You have too many illogical and fixed ideas to get rid off before you can understand how others can grasp any truth.

  • Vj ~ Is it illogical or too fix an idea also to ask how a woman (Anjani) can conceive (Hanuman) by having seminal fluid poured into her ears?

    Dialogue 2 - Hinduism
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    Reply to Hindu - Tuesday, 24-Aug-1999
    Hindu: He (God) might need to repeat himself for our understanding.
  • Vj ~ It seems he is doing more than repeating himself, he has now resorted to drinking milk. But since the Hindus are still short of understanding he would now probably need to excrete to convince the ignorant Hindus. And if he needs to repeat himself any further then he will have do it in such way where they would not only smell it but taste it.

    Hindu: Who knows why He does what?

  • Vj ~ All those who are the followers of Maharishi Swami Dayanand know that He (God) acts accordingly in wisdom and in conformity with his laws and never in any stupid way to appease an ignorant Hindu.

    Hindu: Why does He need to annihilate and create and then reveal and repeat the cycle again? Can you answer that?

  • Vj ~ It is also one of His laws that all things created of the different combinations of matter in their right proportions are effects and must eventually return to matter. The same law applies to birth and death, day and night, and so on. Furthermore he needs to exercise His creative energy and for souls to reap the fruits of their past actions by creation.

    Hindu: As soon as you can, God becomes subject to reason and ceases to be the Cause that determines but is never determined.

  • Vj ~ How can an idiot ever determine cause and effect without reasoning? God is eternal so how can He cease to become the efficient cause to the Universe? The period of between dissolution and creation is where emancipated souls enjoy His bliss which means God is always active even when there is no creation.

    Hindu: Think deeper bhai (brother).

  • Vj ~ I wish I can say the same for you when it is truly hopeless for you to think deeper without a brain.

    Hindus worship God through idols, not idols in place of God

    Reply to Hindu - Thursday, 26-Aug-1999
    Hindu: If a person wants to drink milk, he uses a cup as he cannot drink it directly....

  • Vj ~ I bet if he is starving he would find a way even if there were no cup.

    Hindu: "The idol form of God is akin to a vessel which enables a man to drink the milk."

  • Vj ~ Since your God (Ganesha) has now taken to drinking milk with a spoon it means the ignorant Hindus are doing better with a cup. This means your God is slower in learning when it comes to comprehending himself.

    In reply to Chetan Gandhi - Wednesday, 18-Aug-1999
    CG: I've been following the discussion on Idol worship.

  • Vj ~ If it had led you to a formless God, you would not have terminated the discussion and if you did, then it is an injustice to deprive others who are dwelling in such ignorance as you did.

    CG: Though this can be considered a legitimate philosophical topic.

  • Vj ~ Then it is best to let the wise decide if you are lacking wisdom to do the right thing.

    CG: It has degraded greatly.

  • Vj ~ Couldn't be worst than what the idols have done to you and all Hindus mentally. Where else would the wise seek to enlighten the ignorant? What else can be expected of brains warped by idol-worship?

    CG: As such denigrating the practices of a particular sect (read bhakta to arya) will not be allowed to occur in this forum.

  • Vj ~ Then how else can you rid yourself of the ignorance of idol-worship?

    CG: Thus, all forum participants please terminate any further discussion related to Idol worship.

  • Vj ~ I cannot complain of the hate you have for others when your own is greater for yourself by depriving yourself of the true knowledge of the Vedas.

    CG: In addition refrain from any discussion that are excessively critical (borderline denigrating) of the practices of any particular sect.

  • Vj ~ How would you know yours is right, if the others are not allowed to be discussed?

    Let him say what is good for another, even though it may offend him. In the Mhaabhaarat the sage Vidur says: "In this world, O Dhritraashtra, there are many people who would say sweet things to please and flatter others; but rare is the man who would say or hear a truth which is unpleasant to his ears but really conducive to his good." Mahabhaarat, Udyoga Parva, Vidur

    Dialogue 3 - Editing discussions on this (Hindu Forum)
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    The company of the wise are few

    In reply to Hindu - Saturday, 21-Aug-1999
    Hindu: You say that calling others idiot and using other derogatory adjectives is Vj's style.

  • Vj ~ It is the style used by wise men to weed out the incurable fools since a wise man knows where best his time should be spent. I have always wondered, until now, that "derogatory adjectives" must have some significant benefit to mankind, otherwise why were they created?

    Hindu: That is no justification at all.

  • Vj ~ It is enough of a justification rather than wasting valuable time over a fool. Bhai Ashegan is a very polite individual as you would want him to be, but yet you would not abandon your false practices because of him. So we have tried both ways and it is enough justification that neither would work for the benefit of a fool.

    Hindu: You should see that hardly anybody coming to these message boards is comfortable with Vj's style.

  • Vj ~ It is most convenient since even Lord Krishna said in reference to Kaliyug, "the company of the wise are few". Follow the life of Swami Dayanand and you will see that truth is not simple to come by even if the only books you have on your shelf are the Vedas.

    Hindu: The result is that Vj has frightened more people away from Vedic wisdom than enlightening them.

  • Vj ~ The result is clear that no "frightened" fool, can be enlightened and that includes even those cowards who haven't the courage to use their own names.

    Dialogue 4 - Insults and abuses are barriers one must cross to true knowledge.
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    Vj- Can you tell me the meaning of the word "Hindu" and its language of origin? Also feel free to express yourself, negatively or positively, since we are all here to establish truth in which insults or offensive languages pose no barriers.
    Hindu: You were not leading anyone to anywhere but simply abusing those who differ from you.
  • Vj ~ I have read your response to Christianity and you have also referred to them as ignorant because of their miracles. Shouldn't they feel abused also because they differ from you? If you consider your contradiction to Christianity justifiable to reasoning, why is mine not justifiable to Hinduism?

    Hindu: There is a limit to the extent someone can be allowed to masquerade as a wise person. Although I disagree with the way the discussion has been summarily terminated, no genuine discussion is possible if you insist on your right to abuse others, irrespective of your explanation.

  • Vj ~ A religion that subjects its aspirants to the discomforts of abuses is false and since I am not affected by abuse or offensive remarks, then it is obvious that I am indeed wiser than you and those you seek to defend from 'abuses'.

    Hindu: This is the problem.

  • Vj ~ Now that you know what the problem is, when are you going to do something about it?

    Hindu: Instead of explaining why you degraded the discussion with your posts, you go off the tangent and sing your theme song - insult others.

  • Vj ~ Why do you need an explanation for India's miserable plight? Are you also blind besides being ignorant? It is obvious if Hinduism is the remnant of the once glorious ancient Vedic civilization something must have gone wrong with it (Hinduism) to reduce India to such a deplorable condition. Or do you truly believe that such conditions are God's rewards for righteousness?

    Vj ~ Where else would the wise seek to enlighten the ignorant?
    Hindu: Developing the false notion of wisdom is the worst state of ignorance. You are in such state Vijai

  • Vj ~ Then you must be the wise one, since it will take such a person to ascertain my "false notion of wisdom'. On the other hand, if you cannot admit you are wise, then lo and behold, you are ignorant.

    Hindu: Hindus believe in progressing from form to formless.

  • Vj ~ You spoke of the absence of reasoning in your response to Christianity, I wonder why, since they also have a belief of their own. The Vedas oppose anthropomorphic Gods so how can such a belief elevate the soul? Besides if you fail to rid yourself of the belief of form (idols) in this life, how can you advance to formless.

    Hindu: You can't be allowed to dictate to Hindus what is right for them.

  • Vj ~ And why are you dictating what is right for Christians ?

    Hindu: Hindus know and understand Vedas much more than what you have figured out so far through your narrow view.

  • Vj ~ If they do, I am at a lost at why they still worship idols.

    Hindu: However, the termination of discussion has deprived you of understanding the wisdom of murti puja (idol-worhip).

  • Vj ~ It is obvious that if the "form leads to the formless", it must be a higher state, and if I am at such a state (worshipping the formless) who else understands the Vedas more. So, if there is anyone here who understands the sin of "murti puja" it would be me since I have already passed that stage.

    Hindu - That is a valid point but note that Chetan is not opposed to a discussion but he is suggesting to refrain from excessive criticism and denigration. This is called civilized way.

  • Vj ~ How could it be civilized when critical thinking becomes an impediment to free speech? I am quite sure if you need surgery you would not dictate to the surgeon how wide, long or deep the cut should be. As a matter of fact, besides paying, you will be thanking him in-spite of the pain and he is only dealing with the physical body while I am trying to save your soul.

    Your quote Vidur from Mahabharat,Vj - "In this world, O Dhritraashtra, there are many people who would say sweet things to please and flatter others; but rare is the man who would say or hear a truth which is unpleasant to his ears but really conducive to his good."
    Hindu: How would you know that your unpleasant and abusive rhetoric is truth and that it is conducive to the good of others.

  • Vj ~ I know what is truth, the problem is that you don't and won't know this truth until you have first abandoned your false practices. Only then this knowledge can enter your.

    Hindu: Being unpleasant is not the best thing of Truth.

  • Vj ~ It is not the best only when you are ignorant. The verse speaks for itself and it means if you can be or always affected by insults or abuses you will never be able to conquer ignorance. Now, can you tell me the meaning of the word "Hindu" and its language of origin?

    Hindu: You can easily find enough literature on the subject on the net as well as in bookstores.

  • Vj ~ I can easily find enough fools also on the net and in the bookstores, so why bother to come here? You speak of logic, reason and knowledge and are these the answers you will give to substantiate those claims? Seems that you are not only ashamed of your real name, but the name of your religion (Hindu) also.

    Also feel free to express yourself, negatively or positively, since we are all here to establish truth in which insults or offensive languages pose no barriers.
    Hindu: insults or offensive languages do pose a barrier to any meaningful discussion. I would advise you to avoid insults or offensive language as these are least helpful in search of truth.

  • Vj ~ So what 'wisdom' brought you here if insults or offensive language pose an impediment in the search for truth. It is obvious that if I showed no restraint for it, on other boards, I won't be here. At least there is consistency even when dealing with fools and this is what truth really requires - consistency.

    Vj - I have read your response to Christianity and you have also referred to them as ignorant because of their miracles. Shouldn't they feel abused also because they differ from you? If you consider your remarks to be justifiable to reasoning, why is not mine to Hinduism? A religion that subjects its aspirants to the discomforts of abuses is false .
    Hindu: Great. So you abuse people of any faith and call that faith false because they are being abused because of their faith. Can you see how absurd your logic is?

  • Vj ~ No, I see it as sensible, since false faith itself is more of a serious abuse to the soul than I am to the people. A lifeguard will punch his victim unconscious, only for the victim's good, not for the glee of inflicting pain. The same with the wise who would care less even if the fool thinks he is being offended and since I am not affected by abuse or offensive remarks, then it is obvious that I am indeed wiser than you and those you seek to defend from 'abuses'.

    Hindu: Wise are known by their wisdom, not by their ability to insult others and get insulted.

  • Vj ~ Fools are also known by their ignorance and lack of ability to see critical thinking as a direction to good reasoning. Do you really think the world is void of fools? If not, explain to me whom you consider a fool, which should be simple if you can explain yourself.

    Hindu: It is true that wise are least affected by insults and abuses

  • Vj ~ If you can see this far, what is preventing you from going the distance but ignorance.

    Hindu: However, sitting idle in the face of insults and abuses is not the way of wise as it sets disturbing example of common people.

  • Vj ~ On the contrary, it is fools who sit idle in the face of insults and abuses when instead it is meant for their own good. How much more could a fool have learnt by now, had he not been so busy complaining of abuses and insults? On the other hand, it is wise to clear the air of ignorance or rise above “common people” before good reasoning can take effect.

    Hindu: Instead of explaining why you degraded the discussion with your posts, you go off the tangent and sing your theme song - insult others.

  • Vj ~ Why, do you need any other explanation for India's miserable plight?

    Hindu: Not right now. Right now I need an explanation on why you degraded the discussion with your posts, you go off the tangent and sing your theme song - insult others.

  • Vj ~ The explanation is simple - the anti-Vedic Hinduism is the cause of all pain and misery. It is obvious if Hinduism is the remnant of the once glorious ancient Vedic civilization something must have gone wrong with it (Hinduism) to reduce India to such a deplorable condition.

    Hindu: By that logic, it should also be obvious that something must be wrong with Arya Samaj and its understanding of Vedas because they have not brought India out of that 'deplorable condition' either.

  • Vj ~ How could they with almost a billion stubborn idiots like you? But whatever glory India can boast about today it is because of Swami Dayanand and Arya Samaj. It is not the mission of Arya Samaj to save the world, but only those who seek truth. It is impossible to make a horse (fool) drink water (knowledge) if he is not thirsty.

    Hindu: Coming to the point, yes many things have gone wrong with Hinduism.

  • Vj ~ You are an idiot beyond all idiots. How can it go wrong when it was already wrong from its very inception? Where and when was Hinduism ever right that it went wrong?

    Hindu: At the same time it is also true that Hinduism has seen maximum number of reformers, undergone maximum changes and is still the faith of billions of people.

  • Vj ~ Isn't it the same with Christianity also? These so-called "reformers" have only brought divisions among these irrational faiths, so what good were they? And if you seek to validate your faith by numbers, why not become a Christian or a Muslim? They are more than a billion?

    Hindu: Yes, Hinduism is the proud inheritor of ancient Vedic civilization and as long as its foundation is firmly rooted and Vedas and Upanishads, there is nothing to worry about.

  • Vj ~ So where was this firm root when the Muslims and then the British invaded in India? Or do you truly believe that such conditions are God's rewards for righteousness?

    Hindu: I don't believe that God is sitting somewhere rewarding for righteousness and punishing for sins. The reward and punishment follows the Law of Karma.

  • Vj ~ And who is sustaining these laws? Can any law inflict just punishment or rewards by itself without a judge? If these laws can function by themselves why do we need God? Then you must be the wise one, since it will take such a person to ascertain my "false notion of wisdom'. On the other hand, if you cannot admit you are wise, then lo and behold, you are ignorant.

    Hindu: This is argument for the sake of argument - useless.

  • Vj ~ No, it is your ignorance displayed at its best. It is obvious, how ignorant one can be to speak of another's wisdom, when oneself lacks it. You spoke of the absence of reasoning in your response to Christianity, I wonder why, since they also have a belief of their own. The Vedas oppose anthropomorphic Gods so how can such a belief elevate the soul?

    Hindu: Refer to my complete response to Christianity.

  • Vj ~ Your response to Christianity is the same as my criticism for Hinduism. All I want to know is why you are right and I am wrong?

    Hindu: I am not speaking against reason here as well.

  • Vj ~ Ignorance by nature is void of reasoning, so whatever you say is against reasoning.

    Hindu: You are, because your only reason is that Vedas say so (or more correctly, you understand that Vedas say so).

  • Vj ~ The Vedas is the source of what is known through true knowledge. If it is not, then you must have some other source.

    Hindu: I don't see Vedas/Upanishads opposing the idea of using murtis, praman, symbols and any intellectual aid to comprehend the Ultimate Reality.

  • Vj ~ Do you see 2 billion Christians finding any fault in the Bible. It is not what one see is truth, but what is known through reasoning guided by the correct knowledge.

    Hindu: Moreover, if you believe in pure reason, you should prove on the basis of reason alone, without appealing to the authority of Vedas, why use of any symbol is wrong as a means to reach a higher goal.

  • Vj ~ How is it possible for my reason to be effective when the ignorant lacks it? This is why Swami Dayanand stressed on ingraining the proper reasoning habits before any attempt is made to read the Vedas or Upanishads or any other books for that matter. And why are you dictating what is right for Christians?

    Hindu: I am not and I never will.

  • Vj ~ Neither am I and never will. If you don't believe me, why should Christians believe you?

    Hindu: I have only given my response to the points raised.

  • Vj ~ So am I, idiot!

    Hindu: I am only oppose to those beliefs and practices of others' faith that threaten mine.

  • Vj ~ How can Christianity be a threat, unless Hinduism is also a false doctrine?

    Hindu: Because, one's freedom stops where others' begin.

  • Vj ~ . If they do, I am at a lost at why they still worship idols. It will be best to strive to become an Arya where freedom never stops even where others begin.

    Hindus: Time for you to check your own understanding of Vedas.

  • Vj ~ And what “understanding” do you suppose I am applying now? Obviously if it were a Hindu's understanding, I would have been prostrating before a thousand idols and you would have been happy. It is obvious that if the "form leads to the formless", it must be a higher state, and if I am at such a state (worshipping the formless) who else better understands the Vedas?

    Hindu: Worshipping the formless and understanding the formless is quite different. And further different is realizing the formless.

  • Vj ~ The point is, how would you know of the formless (a higher state) when you are still in the lower state of worshipping the form? Furthermore, worship is most fruitful when the formless is properly understood and never before.

    Hindu: If you have come to these stages, you don't need to look left or right.

  • Vj ~ True, but again how would you know since you haven't reached there yet?

    Hindu: However, those who are still struggling to understand the formless, they need every symbol, every form, every means that might help them in their endeavor.

  • Vj ~ Then what makes you think that such a struggle is beneficial to Hindus when for thousands of years it lead to nothing else but pain and misery for them? Is it sensible to continue to embrace such ignorance in spite of a rishi quest to rid India of it?

    Hindu: Understanding of Vedas (or any scriptures for that matter) prepares one for the final realization of Brahma. Understanding of Vedas is not an end in itself.

  • Vj ~ It is most ignorant to even speak of the Vedas while still worshipping idols. So if there is anyone here who understands "murti puja" it would be me since I have already passed that stage.

    Hindu: Many have passed that stage before you. In any case, it might not have worked for you, it might work for others.

  • Vj ~ If it is one (lower) stage to another (higher), why would it not work for all? It is obvious if one has attained the higher realm of worshipping the formless, he must have knowledge of the past (murti puja) which he had to pass through at one time.

    Vj - How could it be civilized when critical thinking becomes an impediment to free speech?
    Hindu: There is nothing like absolute freedom for anything while subject to space, time and matter.

  • Vj ~ So why are subjecting your self to matter (idols)? How can the world ever rid itself of misery when idiots like you have nothing else to teach people but rubbish? Why would you want to seek absolute freedom when you cannot even free yourself from the ignorance of idol-worship?

    I quite sure if you need surgery you would not dictate to the surgeon how wide, long or deep the cut should be. As a matter of fact, besides paying, you will be thanking him in spite of the pain and he is only dealing with the physical body while I am trying to save your soul.
    Hindu: As usual, you are claiming to be the savior of mankind.

  • Vj ~ Actually it is difficult to make such a claim with so many idiots like yourself around, unless I can somehow con them into believing I am an incarnation by replacing my son's head with that of an elephant's.

    Vj `I know what is truth, the problem is that you don't and won't know this truth until you have first abandoned your false practices. Only then this knowledge can enter.
    Hindu: I can say the same thing to you. It will not lead this discussion anywhere.

  • Vj ~ Very true, compulsion being so, but you must admit this much or you can continue to be stupid, that if this world does not end with false religions where will God get the billions of souls necessary to refurbish his creation with vegetation, bacteria and other air, land and sea creatures. So please, if you become wise, perhaps your god-snake will loose out on a rat (you) to feed itself somewhere in the future.

    The verse speaks for itself and it means if you can be or always affected by insults or abuses you will never be able to conquer ignorance.
    Hindu: Let me decide how I wish to conquer ignorance.

  • Vj ~ If it was such a simple task, why then for thousands of years Hindus were subdued by dense ignorance in spite of the Brahmanas, Vedas and Upanishads?

    Hindu: I can't allow you to insult and abuse me under any presumption.

  • Vj ~ You have already been subjected to it idiot, why else are you complaining? Certainly, if you had the wisdom in the first place, like I do, it would have never affected you. Know then, that wisdom is the only cure, not empty, long and senseless speeches.

    Dialogue 5 - Absurdities of the Puranas.
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    In reply to Hindu -Thursday, 19-Aug-1999
    DIRM: Jesus is the only way to heaven.
    Hindu: Think deeper.
  • Vj ~ You would be in serious trouble even in thinking the deepest if he should get hold of your vulgar and absurd Puranas and Bhagavatam. How do you explain to him the earth sitting on a bull and the bull on a turtle? What was the turtle standing on?

    Hindu: It seems as if your aim is to somehow prove others wrong and, only by implication, yourself right.

  • Vj ~ My aim is that you cannot prove others wrong when you are guilty of the same or worst. Free yourself of ignorance before attempting to free others. Would you take swimming lessons from one who is also learning? Not likely, because the danger is both of you can drown.

    Hindu: It would have helped if you had given your comments on what I said to DIRM (Does It Really Matter).

  • Vj ~ I did, but my comments are intended for the good of all, irrespective of race, creed, class or religion.

    Hindu: Instead you chose to pick up a completely unrelated subject for the sole purpose of making me wrong.

  • Vj ~ The point is, I have made no false accusations in making you wrong and if you were, then you must lay the blame at the feet of the authors of the Puranas and Bhagavatam, not me.

    Hindu: if not based on what I said then based on what I have not said. Anyway, here is my response.

  • Vj ~ Even if you had said it, would it have made you right? Obviously not! I am only continuing the mission of Swami Dayanand in exposing untruth in whatever form (Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc) it comes.

    Hindu: I believe in Purans and Bhagavatam but I don't accept them as words of God and totally infallible - as Bible for Christians, Koran for Muslims and Light of Truth for you.

  • Vj ~ Then the Christians and Muslims are way ahead of you since they hold theirs to be infallible, while you believe in something that you know is not totally infallible? The Light of Truth is not the word of God, but yet it is in harmony with reasoning and no knowledge today or in the future can render all or part of it absurd.

    Hindu: I don't think that a Hindu must believe portions of any smriti and itihaas literature if it contradicts shruti.

  • Vj ~ Very true, but how does a Hindu know when it is in contradiction to Shruti if the literature of Smriti and Itihaas are themselves contradictive?

    Hindu: In this regard, I fully understand the rules set in Mimansa for the interpretation of Hindu scriptures.

  • Vj ~ And where were those “rules” when the vulgar and obscene Puranas and Bhagavatam were written and prostrated by Hindus over centuries?

    Hindu: I hope you can understand that I will not be in slightest trouble with questions on Puranas and Bhagavatam.

  • Vj ~ There are already indications that you are in trouble, since you have already acknowledged the absurdities.

    How do you explain to him the earth sitting on a bull and the bull on a turtle? What was the turtle standing on?
    Hindu: It can't be explained and knowledge since then have conclusively proved these ideas absurd.

  • Vj ~ So what sensible person would want to eat food from a plate that has a teaspoonful of filth in it? Is your stupid brains so static that you can't even see you have a bigger problem than that of Christians? They cannot be blamed since they have nothing else but the Bible to rely on, while you, in spite of the eternal Vedas, seek guidance from such absurdities. What is your excuse, if it is not ignorance?

    Hindu: As said earlier, a Hindu is not compelled to believe anything against that defies reason, common sense and valid sources of knowledge.

  • Vj ~ Very true, but if the authors (Puranas and Bhagavatam) who were supposed to be 'wise' men are now having their wisdom challenged by today's learning, what hope was there in their books to enlighten Hindus before. Even more absurd, is that Hindus still look to these books today for enlightenment even though they defy "reason, common sense and valid sources of knowledge".

    Hindu: Before going off the tangent, you should have found out that despite puranic assertions how many Hindus actually believe that the earth sitting on a bull and the bull on a turtle and the turtle on??? against the number of Christians who believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

  • Vj ~ How about the question of how many Hindus believe "that the earth sitting on a bull and the bull on a turtle and the turtle on ???" before Christianity? It is this kind of ignorance that led to India's demise from her once glorious days. What imbecile can be proud of such a travesty? Had it not been for the great wisdom of the rishis like Swami Dayanand, Hindus would have still been in total chaos looking for the bull and the turtle that uphold the earth. How can an idiot who wrote something so stupid, write anything sensible at the same time? The biggest of all sinners are the Hindus who reviled their Holy Vedas, not the Christians who knew nothing of it.

    Dialogue 6 - Banned from Hindu Forum
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    In reply to Hindu -Thursday, 19-Aug-1999
    Vj ~ There isn't much one can teach a Hindu when he is ashamed of using his own name.
    Ashegan: it is sad indeed that they don't have the wisdom to recognize help when it comes to them...
    Hindu: Since when best help started to be offered in terms of insults and abuses?
  • Vj ~ Since a serious disease (ignorance) requires an incision (surgery). It is not meant to inflict pain only, but it is necessary for the good of the patient.

    Ashegan: but such is the age of kaliyug iron or (dark age).
    Hindu: There was no Satyuga during Swami Dayanand's time either.

  • Vj ~ If it were, there would have been no ignorance and no need for him to enlighten Hindus. On the other hand, the state of wisdom is satyuga for one who has acquired it.

    Hindu: Your failure is due to your arrogance that only you understand Vedas, only you know what is good for others.

  • Vj ~ So if the higher stage of worshipping the formless is called arrogance, why are you striving for it?

    Hindu: The moments anyone begins to think that he knows what is good for all, he becomes dictatorial.

  • Vj ~ Then that includes God, since He is guilty of revealing the Vedas which tells us what we must do to eliminate ignornance.

    Ashegan: i wonder how i will be able to properly defend our dharma without your help...
    Hindu: If a dharma cannot be defended, spiritually and philosophically, on its own, it must be de devoid of truth and hence cannot be defended, with or without Vijai.

  • Vj ~ I agree with you, then how would you explain why the Hindus could not defend their Dharma, "spiritually and philosophically" instead of banning me from their forum? You would have to agree with me that your Dharma is void of truth since it cannot withstand abuse and insults. My forum stands for truth, since all are welcome and no one is ever barred in spite of his or her attitude, abusive or offensive, because truth is truth and no mortal being can affect it in a negative way.

    Ashegan: anyway, vj, i admire your courage for going to that board in the first place and speaking your mind whatever the consequences...
    Hindu: There is no wisdom in admiring the courage used for unfairly attacking others.

  • Vj ~ And what wisdom was there, in assassinating a Rishi for what was thought to be "unfairly attacking others'?

    Hindu: This is called prejudiced outlook and unholy alliance.

  • Vj ~ That was called ignorance and there is no excuse for it, holy or unholy.

    Ashegan: is there a lesson in this experience for the next time we team up to battle ignorance on another forum?
    Hindu: The lesson is that ignorance can only be fought with knowledge, not with abuses, rhetoric and holier than thou attitude.

  • Vj ~ How can it be fought with knowledge when the ignorant has no respect for those who propagate the knowledge? Killing the propagator (Swami) is killing the knowledge. Does any of this starting to make any sense to you, lame-brain?

    Ashegan: btw, do you know of any arya pundits who are as well-read as vishal - i would like to check the authenticity of his claims.
    Hindu: There are many great Arya pundits (noble philosophers).

  • Vj ~ Beginning with the great Maharishi Swami Dayanand, whom the Hindus assassinated. Leaves one to wonder which Hindu is truly in need of knowledge much less an Arya Pundit (propagator of true knowledge).

    Hindu: But before you go to check the authenticity of Vishal's claim you must get rid of your prejudice that Vishal must be wrong.

  • Vj ~ If he does that, then what hope is there in curing the Hindus of their ignorance. Truth is only prejudicial to idiots and not wise men.

    Hindu: You must also be ready for the possibility that Vishal may be right.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious if he is right, attempts, such as those on Swami Dayanand, would have already been made on his life.

    Hindu: Otherwise, you might just continue checking authenticity of one pundit by another until you find someone who satisfies your preconceived notions rather than telling the truth.

  • Vj ~ There is never any difficulty in finding an authentic Aryan Pundit, just take a good look at the ones who are constantly being threatened with death by the Hindus. The Hindus themselves have established such fine examples of great Aryan Scholars when they assassinated the last reformer.

    Ashegan: (please note i'm in no way swayed in my faith in swamiji.. in fact it has grown)
    Hindu: It is pathetic that you must confirm your loyalty whenever you raise a doubt.

  • Vj ~ The doubt is when a Hindu can be ready to commit the act of murder on one who embraces the true religion of the Vedas.

    Hindu: This is not Vedic/Upanishdic way of learning.

  • Vj ~ But murdering a Rishi is.

    Hindu: Incessant and courageous search of Truth requires that one is willing to sacrifice even most dear false notions for truth.

  • Vj ~ You are an idiot born to births of misery like all other Hindus who wanted the death of a Swami so badly and you call that sacrifice and courage.

    Hindu: Are you ready to accept the possibility that your teacher may be wrong?

  • Vj ~ You haven't proven me wrong yet so how can he accept that his (Ashegan's) "teacher" is wrong.

    Hindu: Or, you will sacrifice Truth for your loyalty to your teacher?

  • Vj ~ The Hindus were the first to sacrifice Truth (Swami Dayanand) for loyalty of Hinduism (ignorance).

    Dialogue 7 - Vedanta
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    In reply to Hindu - Monday, 23-Aug-1999
    Hindu: "Vedanta, represents the basic tenets of Hinduism."
  • Vj ~ And where in the Vedanta can one find the word Hindu? Obviously it is not in the Vedas and the Vedanta which is the "distilled essence of the Vedas" won't have it either. Therefore Hinduism is false, unless you can do better than being idiot.

    Hindu: Truth is not altered if it is given different name by different people.

  • Vj ~ If it is, why then, when I call you an idiot, it is not truth?

    Hindu: Vedas and Vedant even don't mention the name Vijai, so are you false?

  • Vj ~ Here you go again with another idiotic statement; my name or yours does not represent a religion as the word "Hinduism" does.

    Hindu: Vedas don't even say that you are an idiot but still you are.

  • Vj ~ Then you must also know that the Vedas does say that those who reviles the Vedas by worshipping matter or things born of matter (idols) are idiots and are sunk in the deepest depth of misery.

    Hindu: Hinduism is true because of the Truth it holds on to, not because of some name or some tag.

  • Vj ~ If India (past and present misery) is a reflection of that truth it holds, then it is obvious the "name or some tag" (Hindu) does matter.

    Hindu: You don't have an existence without Swami Dayanand and his Light of Truth.

  • Vj ~ All have an existence without Swami Dayanand, but none can attain a higher birth (leading to emancipation) without him and His light of Truth.

    Hindu: Discuss something positive if you can do something more than trying to invalidate others by invalid arguments.

  • Vj ~ Even God has no cure for a fool, so why would I look for "something positive" to validate my arguments to one.

    Hindu - It means that simply if you call me an idiot, I don't become an idiot..My wisdom, or lack of it if you wish, remains unaltered by what people say.

  • Vj ~ Wow! What philosophy! Your claim from inception is, how much I have been insulting you and Hindus. So again I am asking you, if you know that you are not an idiot when I call you one, why are you offended?

    Hindu - It also says that those who run after abstract concepts alone sink in even deeper darkness. Here is the quote from Ishopanishad, "Into a blind darkness they enter who follow after the Ignorance, they as of into a great darkness who devote themselves to the Knowledge alone."

  • Vj ~ My response above answers this one. It shows how well a fool can quote but hardly knows what it means. Rituals without knowledge are a sin but knowledge alone without practice leads to deeper misery. It is obvious then, that the more one attains knowledge while practicing, the less one will be distracted. Now I ask you again, since insults or offensive languages distract you and not me, who then is practicing?

    Vj's excuse for abusing others

    In reply to Hindu - Sunday, 29-Aug-1999
    Hindu: Secondly, all your emphasis on reason, logic, natural laws, in short, knowledge leads one further away from Truth if restricted to intellectual gymnastics.

  • Vj ~ I guess we have to lay blame on Swami Dayanand who has shown me the way to Vedic truth. How could a Rishi be so wrong? Furthermore, how did those before the Swami were led "further away from Truth".

    Hindu: Your messages hardly reflects your wisdom or immunity to others'

  • Vj ~ But how would an imbecile like you know what is wisdom to assess its reflection? You can only denounce or praise something when you have the knowledge to do so. Are you sure you are not a wise man?

    Hindu - How can an imbecile like you understand even if tell you how?

  • Vj ~ Why not try? Idiot! Explain to "an imbecile" like me, how a monkey (Hanuman) swallowed the sun?

    Dialogue 8 -Creator/Cause, Effect and Proof
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    In reply to Hindu - Saturday, 21-Aug-1999
    Hindu: The point is: whether the world can be explained by the assumption of a creator. The answer is Yes and the explanation can be found in Vedas and Upanishads.
  • Vj ~ Why bother go to the Vedas and Upanishads to explain a creator when you can simply show them God Ganesha drinking milk.

    Hindu: Because nothing, much less the creator, is explained by showing god (use of capitol G is misleading) Ganesha drinking milk.

  • Vj ~ Couldn't be more misleading than a compassionate and merciful ‘God’ drinking milk?!

    Hindu: Now please don't be monotonously predictable by asking why Hindus worship Ganesha. That is not the topic here.

  • Vj ~ The topic is explaining the true creator if there is one. If your Ganesha (God) can drink milk while millions of children are dying of hunger, then his characteristic of compassion and mercy is in question. On the other hand, if it is a Divine act to persuade or remind the gullible of his existence, then you must also accept the Christian God, that has also sent so many such signs.
    In retrospect, I am saying that when you have "a beam in your eye, don't even attempt to take the mold out of another's eye".

    Creator/Cause, Effect and Proof

    In reply to Hindu - Monday, 23-Aug-1999
    Vj-The topic is explaining the true creator.
    Hindu: That is exactly what my first message comments on, and you are trying to avoid.

  • Vj ~ How can you explain the true Creator when your religion is just as guilty as the others, you are condemning.

    Vj- if there is one.
    Hindu: why this unnecessary doubting?

  • Vj ~ This is an atheists forum and if your God is as contradictory as the others then, how can they not have doubts? If your Ganesha (God) can drink milk while millions of children are dying of hunger, then his characteristic of compassion and mercy is in question.

    Hindu: Ganesha CAN drink milk cannot be translated as Ganesha drinks milk.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious if he drank milk before, he CAN drink milk again and when he does it will be "Ganesha drinks milk". It may not make sense to you since your head is just as empty as the idol you worship.

    Hindu: However, before questioning god, look at yourself -

  • Vj ~ Typical of an idiot not knowing that I am questioning him. If your answers are an example of this God I question, then now is your chance to abandon him.

    Hindu: wasting your time in front of PC trying to make fool of others

  • Vj ~ A fool is already a fool with no effort whatever, but if the fool has any sense left then his time would not be wasted. But as for my time it is wisdom earned since the wise can draw even wisdom (nectar) from a fool (poison).

    Hindu: and getting fatter while millions are dying of hunger.

  • Vj ~ Unrighteousness (false dogmas) is the cause of hunger and the cure is righteousness (Vedic), not Hinduism.

    On the other hand, if it is a Divine act to persuade or remind the gullible of his existence, then you must also accept the Christian God, that has also sent so many such signs.
    Hindu- Ganesha drinking milk refers to what many called a miracle that occurred, if I remember correctly, sometime in 1995-96 in some parts of the world. I have said elsewhere that miracles are phenomena or acts that are hitherto unexplained.

  • Vj ~ It is an "unexplained" phenomena for the ignorant who do not understand the immutable laws of nature. Such ignorant state leads to pain and misery because God does not intervene personally into anyone’s life or any group to prove His existence.

    Hindu: By the way, what do you mean by "Christian God"?

  • Vj ~ It is obvious that your God performs miracles as well as the Christian God and since you reject the Christian God, it simply means that each of these dogmas have their own respective God or Gods.

    Hindu; These phenomena should be treated as such - unexplained.

  • Vj ~ Very true, and if you are satisfied being an idiot why would you want it explained anyway. I have already given many such explanations that miracles breaches natural laws and as such they do not occur. Unless you are looking forward for an explanation from an idiot like yourself where you both can find agreement.

    Hindu: You can have your opinion but you have nothing better to explain.

  • Vj ~ And what makes you think that I would want to explain it to a fool if he is happy being a fool. In retrospect, I am saying that when you have "a beam in your eye, don't even attempt to take the mold out of another's eye".

    Very true. It applies to you as well. In my case, you are forcing a beam in my eye where one does not exist.

  • Vj ~ It is truly amazing, that a fool can tell the difference!

    Hindu: May I now request you to focus on the subject at hand: Creator, Creation and Proof.

  • Vj ~ That is easy, but how do I get a fool (static intellect) like you to focus? The subject of Creator, creation and Proof requires a functional intellect, which can reason and such reasoning must be in conformity with natural laws. If it weren't so, how come so many can read with so many different scriptures and yet the existence of God cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Dialogue 9 - Creation - Samkhya Viewpoint
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    In reply to Hindu -Sunday, 29-Aug-1999
    Vj-How can you explain the true Creator when your religion is just as guilty as the others you are condemning.
    Hindu: I am just explaining. You figure out how.
  • Vj ~ Isn't that what a fool does, just explain whether it is right or wrong? And when the wise figure it out for you own good, you call them a liar instead of doing some reflection.

    Hindu: If anyone has doubt in my explanation of Creator, Creation and Proof, one is free to question.

  • Vj ~ What good would that do, when you are an illiterate lame-brain whose creator has taught you that your planet is sitting on a bull who in turn is standing on turtle?

    It is obvious if he drank milk before, he CAN drink milk again and when he does it will be "Ganesha drinks milk". It may not make sense to you since your head is just as empty as the idol you worship
    Hindu: My head is as real as the murti I worship.

  • Vj ~ Then we are in agreement that your head is all (dried) mud?

    Hindu: The empty heads like you can't see the reality behind the murti.

  • Vj ~ So why does a stupid Hindu prostrate in front of the Murti when the reality is, it is in its “behind”?

    Hindu: Tamas: "mass-stuff", strands of darkness, mass, obstruction and limitation.

  • Vj ~ This is the ignorant state of the Hindu idiot and his idol. How can this fool rise to a higher birth in the next life if he dies in it?

    Hindu - Certainly not by listening to and following an idiot like you. The only hope lies in following Hindu dharma and rising from the worship of murti (idol) to the state of being one with Brahma.

  • Vj ~ The deplorable and destitute conditions of India's masses do not speak of a " rising from the worship of murti (idol) to the state of being one with Brahma". You have yet to learn of the proper use of the caste system, which is presently used by Hindus to belittle, degrade and suppress the will and intellect of the less unfortunate and yet you have the gall to speak of being one with Brahma after that.

    Dialogue 10 - The word "Hindu" is no where to be found in the Vedas.
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    In reply to Vinaire - Wednesday, August 4, 1999
    Vinaire: A Hindu does not believe that the physical image he is worshipping is God.
  • Vj ~ It is enough a holy shrine to cause discomfort (pain) if the image is desecrated.

    Vinaire: To him a physical image only serves to focus his attention while he is seeking the experience of God.

  • Vj ~ Then why so many different images when one could be enough? It would make good sense to concentrate on one instead of so many which can lead to more confusion.

    Vinaire: Once he attains that experience, he can throw away all the images and still be a Hindu.

  • Vj ~ If he is still a Hindu, it means he didn't throw away the images. Since the word "Hindu" is no where to be found in the Vedas, he would have to become an Arya. Swamiji (Dayanand) said that mediators between man and God lead to mental thraldom. How is a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc. could ever experience God without an image? How can there be a higher birth for the soul when a Hindu, from birth to death, never advanced from the worship of the physical image?

    Vinaire: Let us start from the beginning and take one thing at a time.

  • Vj ~ It is one thing, God.

    Vinaire: Why is it necessary to have the word "Hindu" in the Vedas to be authentic?

  • Vj ~ Because the Vedas is the source of all true knowledge and if it does not sanction Hinduism as a path to God, then being a Hindu is false.

    Vinaire: Do you believe like Christians and Muslims believe that all truth is contained in a book, and that anything outside that book is false?

  • Vj ~ No, but I believe all is false until it is in conformity with natural laws and in harmony with reasoning guided by the correct knowledge. This calls for examining the tenets of all religions to conclude which one is true.

    Vinaire: How bigoted can you be?

  • Vj ~ You won't know bigotry from wisdom by prostrating to an image. Lord Krishna said, in reference to the age of Kaliyug, "the company of the wise are few." It makes a lot of sense where in Hinduism lies the ignorant majority.

    Vinaire: Vijai, I truly feel sorry for you.

  • Vj ~ What an imbecile! I can only imagine how much sorrier you are for Maharishi Swami Dayanand Saraswati.

    Vinaire: But I hope one day you will be able to see past your fixed ideas.

  • Vj ~ If I didn't, how else would I know a fool when I see one? In your state of ignorance, a wise man is a fool. So how can you be cured of your ignorance?

    Vinaire: You don't even know what I believe. You easily assume thing.

  • Vj ~Any one who insists that the realization of God is possible through an image (idol), is indeed foolish and that is enough to tell me what you are.

    Dialogue 11 - Hindus are idol-worshippers!
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    In reply to Vinaire - Wednesday, August 4, 1999
    Vinaire: It is better to focus on the understanding of God rather than to focus on idolatry.
  • Vj ~ How is such understanding possible when the focus is only on the image, especially if it is the linga (penis/vagina)?

    Vinaire: Idolatry drops off by itself as one approaches the understanding of God.

  • Vj ~ Certainly not the case of a 14 year-old boy (Moolshankar later Swami Dayanand). Rationally put, it seems it is only at death it is dropped off which I know is too late for the soul to gain higher birth.

    Vinaire: Idolatry is the wrong focus. The correct focus is the understanding of God.

  • Vj ~ If there is any good in idol worshipping (static intellect), it should be the act of becoming an atheist, or rejection of God. This creates an inquisitive (functional) intellect reconcilable to critical thinking in determining the search for truth.

    Vinaire: Can you bring about an understanding of God without trying to smash idolatry at the outset?

  • Vj ~ No, because such knowledge requires reasoning with the correct knowledge and furthermore, it was possible for millions of years before idol worship came into being. Smashing an idol will force the aspirant (if inclined to seek truth) to investigate rather than remaining with a static intellect.

    Vinaire: I think you can, and that is good, because concentrating the efforts on smashing idolatry have never succeeded.

  • Vj ~ Not in the case of Swami Dayanand, had there been no idols mankind would have made more of an effort to know God by the proper inquires, rather than becoming intellectually lazy, resigning to mere belief. Idol-worship leads not only to mental thralldom, but destitution, poverty and miseries of the worst kind.

    Vinaire: It is better to concentrate one's efforts on bringing about the understanding of God.

  • Vj ~ Concentration without the correct knowledge leads to ignorance and can never bring a true understanding of God. If it could, why are you still an ignorant propagator of idol-worship? You cannot speak of the true benefit of the “understanding of God” outside of idol-worship, while you are still in it.

    Vinaire: Remove ignorance and you shall be able to remove the idolatrous thinking.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious you haven't removed yours yet, otherwise you would not have sanctioned idol-worshipping at anytime in the first place.

    Vinaire: Understanding of God is possible simply by focusing on the understanding of God

  • Vj ~ What is the understanding of God - Ganesha drinking milk? How could there be a proper understanding of God in the absence of the correct knowledge?

    Vinaire: Whether an image is there or not has nothing to do with it.

  • Vj ~ You speak like an idiot. So, why the necessity of an image if it can be done without it?

    Vinaire: Targeting image to be an interference in the understanding of God is a WRONG TARGET.

  • Vj ~ To me, you are a greater wrong than the image or the target.

    Vinaire: I do not see that targeting the image has gotten anybody anywhere.

  • Vj ~ If you are an idiot as they are, how can you see any different? It simply means, you haven't gotten anywhere either, even if it has not been targeted.

    Focus on the understanding of God.

  • Vj ~ This way, any idiot can “understand” God, which simply means the efforts of wise men have been fruitless or a waste of time.

    Vinaire: Just by saying "God is formless" you do not achieve the understanding of God.

  • Vj ~ Who says it is the only requirement of understanding God? Any intelligent person would know that it first requires a source, then that knowledge must be thoroughly examined (reasoning and natural laws) against other claimed sources (religions) to determine the true source. Until then all claims of knowing and understanding God are false.

    Vinaire: I truly wonder how you view God with your spiritual eyes?

  • Vj ~ "No tongue can express that bliss which flows, from communion with the Supreme Spirit, into the soul of that man whose impurities are washed off by the practice of yoga, whose mind being abstracted from the outside world is centred in the Supreme Spirit; because that happiness is felt by the human soul in its inner self alone." Upanishad
    • It is obvious that only through wisdom (subjective evidences) one can encounter Divine Bliss or know God and if a fool can reach such a state by an image, then there is truly no need for the Vedas.

    Vinaire: From your utterances I can see that you are very far from any realization of God.

  • Vj ~ On the contrary, the further one is away (exposing the danger) from an image, the closer one is to the realization of God.

    Vinaire: Just like image, quoting scriptures also has nothing to do with the realization of God.

  • Vj ~ It would definitely make sense to idiots since any other views, but their own with a questionable source, are considered incorrect.

    Vinaire: The practice of Yoga would be the way.

  • Vj ~ Shows how ignorant you are of Yoga also. How is Yoga possible without the quotes of scripture? It is only through the mantras (quotes) that communion of God is possible. It is perhaps the reason you are so stupid and are yet to seek proper methods of practicing yoga.

    Vinaire: But, looking at your glibness, I do not think you have been anywhere near it.

  • Vj ~ My “glibness” is a diagnosis of your ignorance and if you are sensible you would seek a cure that is if you are not already incurable.

    In reply to Ajun - Wednesday August 04, 1999
    Arjun: I have tremendous respect for the Arya Samaj.

  • Vj ~ Are you speaking on behalf of all Hindus even those who assassinated Swami Dayanand, the founder of Arya Samj also? What value is respect in the absence of true knowledge? Tolerance of anything that is false is already damaging to the soul.

    Arjun: I know that you do not use images when worshipping. I respect you for this.

  • Vj ~ What good can such a respect bring you when you are still a reviler of the Vedas by worshipping images? It is difficult for me or Swami Dayanand to respect an idol-worshipper knowing that you are relegating your soul to pain and misery. Even though you may be offended by his truth, it is only for your own good.

    Arjun: However millions of Hindus do use images when worshipping. These Hindus all love the Vedas.

  • Vj ~ Loving the Vedas and seeking the knowledge of it, are two opposite paths. Besides how can you love the Vedas when you know not what it stands for?

    Arjun: Why cant you respect their beliefs as they respect yours

  • Vj ~ Their beliefs are false as it is without reasoning and defies the Vedas, how can I respect that? Besides how can they respect that (mine) which they know nothing of?

    Arjun: The greatness in our religion is the diversity of beliefs.

  • Vj ~ This 'greatness' leads to pain and misery. Aren't their enough of poverty and destitution in India to warn you of it?

    Arjun: Surely what is more important than attacking the beliefs of other Hindus is to attack the beliefs of our enemies and those who wish to destroy Hinduism. In the middle-ages we were overrun by Muslims because we were disunited.

  • Vj ~ That is also done where the occasion arises, but for now it is Hinduism that has brought on their own miseries. The Hindus through the action of Ahimsa became cowards and failed to defend themselves. Since I too attack Hinduism I am your enemy also, but my attack is positive in that it can rid India of the cause of her demised.

    Arjun: If Hinduism has got any chance of survival in the future this will be achieved by all Hindus whether they are Aryas, Sanatanas etc

  • Vj ~ Hinduism has already inflicted great pains on itself and if India, her people and the world must survive they must return to Vedic Dharma (one true religion) of the ancient aryas.

    Arjun: As you are a man who knows all the truth, then tell me how many stars are up there across the universe?

  • Vj ~ It is a rather genuine way of declaring yourself an imbecile. Even if I give you an answer, how will you be able to dispute it?

    In reply to Rohit - August 04, 1999
    Rohit: You seem to be giving a fine lecture.

  • Vj ~ Hopefully, it is a sign of good things to come for you.

    Rohit: The goal of Hinduism is to realize the truth and have a revelation of God.

  • Vj ~ And what religion doesn't have such a goal? The Vedas is already the revelation of God, follow it by the ingraining of the proper reasoning habits through the proper guidance and the truth will be realized.

    Rohit: I have one simple question for you: Have you seen God?

  • Vj ~ Who could miss Him with the billions of murti's (idols) floating around. Even the blind can stumble on him and figure out His shape.

    Rohit: If the answer is no, then go back to your room and meditate and realize the truth.

  • Vj ~ Isn't it a wonderful feeling that a Hindu do not have to make any effort to use the brain (intellect) when all he has do is just prostrate before an idol? Better yet, it must be sensually exciting when the idol is Lakshmi.

    Rohit: Don't come here with a bloated ego and a holier than thou attitude.

  • Vj ~ You are definitely the one with the "bloated ego" if that what truth is made out to be.

    Rohit: All men stand humble in the presence of God.

  • Vj ~ Correction! All wise men stand humble in the presence of man and God.

    Rohit: This is the first teaching of Hinduism.

  • Vj ~ What more reason do you need to know that it is a false religion?

    In reply to Deepak - August 04, 1999
    Deepak: Mr. Vijay, Your views a re very strong and I applaud that in you, but why look down upon Hinduism if it preaches non-violent solutions.

  • Vj ~ I look down on all that is false, and if I am here, it simple means I am concern for the souls of my fellow Indian brothers and sisters. Non-violent solutions are Hinduism's weaknesses. It taught Hindus to be cowards rather than defending the Bhaarat (India).

    Deepak: Why label Hindus as cowards when they are trying to avoid conflict.

  • Vj ~ Conflict of a country is minor to the conflict of souls. In other words, the uplifting of the souls for salvation by the practice of true Dharma is the cure of all conflicts.

    Deepak: It is the mentality of people like you who degrade Hinduism.

  • Vj ~ Hinduism has degraded herself. I am not accusing it falsely, so there is truth in what I am saying.

    Deepak: Hinduism gives you the opportunity to reason out, change through time, refine knowledge for the better than why say it " Hinduism has already inflicted great pains on itself and if India" ?

  • Vj ~ What opportunity is there in worshipping false Gods? Then the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists also have wonderful opportunities by their religions also.

    Deepak: Hinduism does not inflict any sort of regulations on the people who follow it...

  • Vj ~ This is her failure. Principles must be laid down in a regulated way that man might ascertain truth. Any other way, leads to pain and misery.

    Deepak: it allows one to realize them and then abide by them. What is so wrong with that? What is wrong in being cowards when you actually end up saving lives?

  • Vj ~ It is wrong to save lives so that they can continue to live in sin (practice of false religion) which is of no benefit to the soul.

    Deepak: All you are doing is ranting and raving, which any fool can do.

  • Vj ~ Makes no difference in Hinduism since even a fool can have all sins washed away by a mere dip in the Ganges to attain salvation.

    If you want to discuss philosophy, then first let us know what your opinion is on some of the most fundamental questions of religion.
    Here they are:
    1. Does God exist? If yes, then prove it. If no, then explain what is the cause of creation?
    2. What is truth?
    3. What is the quest of man?

  • Vj ~ Vj ~ Here is your answer - IN SEARCH OF THE ONE TRUE RELIGION

    Deepak: If you can't answer these questions then say so, don't skirt the questions by giving some nonsensical reply.

  • Vj ~ It does not speak of a man who is sincerely interested in truth.

    Dialogue 12
    Back to contents

    In reply to Makunda - August 04, 1999
    Mukunda: Mr. Vijay, i have tried to stay calm and collected but you have truly pushed the button by doing the one thing i can't stand, which is speaking out of pure ignorance.
  • Vj ~ You seemed to have tolerated it (ignorance) well by being a Hindu.

    Mukunda: You sound like a recording machine or someone who has been force-fed all of this dogma and close minded views and all you are doing is spitting them out.

  • Vj ~ "Let him say what is good for another, even though it may offend him." Swami Dayanand.

    Mukunda: Your posts are not making any sense, first off, what is this about false religion?

  • Vj ~ "If all the religions of the world were in harmony with each other there would have been one religion, but since they all oppose each other there is one true religion." Swami Dayanand.

    Mukunda: As of what I have seen so far what you are saying is going against exactly what the Vedas stand for.

  • Vj ~ And where have I done that?

    Mukunda:The Vedas propound the Truth, Revelation through Experience and that each person can experience the Supreme in different ways just as we each see things in a different manner.

  • Vj ~ There is one path (functional intellect) leading to one right path (discriminating intellect) leading to one true path (realized intellect). Any other way is false.

    Mukunda: If a person wishes to experience the Supreme through idols then all the better for him, if they wish to experience the Supreme through meditation then more power to them and so on.

  • Vj ~ It is not what a person wishes that God is realized, then, any fool can qualify for salvation. If an idol is of any help to the soul, it must foster the rejection of God, as in Swami Dayanand's case. Meditation on the other hand, is useless without the correct knowledge. An image is a distraction.

    Mukunda: How can you make such ludicrous statements as this is the False Religion or the Vedas only teach non-idolatry.

  • Vj ~ How could it be ludicrous when you lack reasoning? Why was there no other religion, but the ancient Vedic religion, before 4,000 years ago if the Vedas taught idolatry?

    Mukunda: By doing so you confine the scope of the Vedas and that in itself is a terrible wrong.

  • Vj ~ The terrible wrong is the rejection of Vedas that gave birth to Hinduism.

    Mukunda: The Vedas are universal and apply to all beings regardless of everything.

  • Vj ~ If it is universal and applies to all beings, what then is the need of Hinduism or other religions? It only shows the fallen state of India by its rejection and which led to mythology.

    Mukunda: What is this about ahimsa being equated with cowardice? Ahimsa, is the greatest idea in the history of the world, and it is meant only for those who wish to walk the path of Brahma-jnaana.

  • Vj ~ Of course it is the greatest idea for the uplifting of the soul, but its use in the absence of the correct knowledge can be detrimental to a nation as it failed India during her numerous invasions.

    Mukunda: A Kshatriya/warrior/solider does not have to conform to ahimsa because it is not his dharma to.

  • Vj ~ It is always right to kill or destroy in self-defense to protect dharma and it does not only apply to a Kshatriya.

    Mukunda: But a person who is taking the path of knowledge, bhakthi or prappati will follow ahimsa, a karma yogi does not necessarily have to.

  • Vj ~ Too bad all Hindus were bhakti-ridden when the Muslims and British invaded India.

    Mukunda: Arjuna was not a coward and he wished to walk the path of ahimsa but that was not to be because he as a kshatriya had a duty to fight for that which is right.

  • Vj ~ It is this ignorance that failed India and led to its partition because the ignorant majority were propagating ahimsa while a courageous few were shedding their blood for the freedom of all.

    Mukunda: In the Gita itself it says

  • Vj ~ The Gita can be of no benefit to those who lack reasoning. Unless you acquire a discriminating intellect, knowing truth from falsehood, you are just as lost.

    Mukunda: In the case of the British i believe the path taken by India was the most effective but if the conqueror of India had been Hitler ahimsa would not have worked, it is such circumstances that ahimsa must be dropped in action but still kept in mind.

  • Vj ~ Ahimsa means non-violence, not only to fellow human beings, but all of God's living creatures. As a matter of fact, ahimsa applies to anything that is an impediment to a benevolent mind. It should not be a hindrance to self-defense in any case.

    Mukunda: We as hindus can be proud of one thing that our "weakness" Ahimsa has brought us, we are the only people in the history of the world who have not wage genocide or war on another just out of religious difference or hate. No other people can say that, we have the moral ground and that is something to be proud of.

  • Vj ~ The “genocide” was done by rejection and reviling the Vedas. Hindu ahimsa has brought India centuries of subjugation, divisions and now the fear of war looms just outside her own borders which was once India also. She still has to contend with over 100 million enemies (Muslims) within her own borders. So what is there to be proud of?

    Mukunda: You said "Hinduism has degraded herself. I am not accusing it falsely, so there is truth in what I am saying" I say: Show me the truth to your statement?

  • Vj ~ India's present turmoil (threat of war, natural disasters and poverty) cannot be Divine justice for righteousness. If the same befalls other nations because of unrighteousness, then India's Hinduism should have been above that of the rest the world for the cure of these calamities.

    Mukunda: You said "What opportunity is there in worshipping false Gods? Then the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists also have wonderful opportunities by their religions also" Let those people pray to who they want, we can say that their philosophies or religions are full of it but we can't say it is false because even these religions possess some truth to them.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious there is no truth in them since it opposes the Vedas. If there is some truth then it can only be by the means of the Vedic philosophy that it can be determined. So no truth can be determined without correct (Vedic) knowledge that makes all other religions including Hinduism false.

    Mukunda: Meaning: "Whichever devotee desires to worship with faith whatever manifestation (of Mine) in relation to every such devotee, I make that same faith of his unshakable and firm.

  • Vj ~ Krishna may have said something pertaining to faith, but wisdom tells me it must be a faith in harmony with reasoning and in conformity with natural laws. Only the religion of the Vedas lives up to this principle. Yet you continue to quote like a parrot without any reasoning to the true meaning of the Gita.

    Mukunda: For one to gain right and good knowledge, the mind must be open to hear good thoughts.

  • Vj ~ One can only determine the sweetness of sugar when salt is tasted. Similarly, truth and untruth must be discussed to ascertain what is consisted of truth.

    Mukunda: Open your mind and heart Vijay, that is part of the true meaning of the Vedas.

  • Vj ~ It is opened why else would I be here to save lost souls? Since the Vedas is truth it will offend those who oppose it.

    In reply to Deepak - August 06, 1999
    Deepak: When the practice of adharma (unrighteousness) is prevalent one can expect the unexpected facts of discomforts in all phase of life, even in mixed marriages. It truly seems that you have something truly against idolatry.

  • Vj ~ More like everything that opposes true ideals of the Vedic philosophy.

    Deepak: Any reason why?

  • Vj ~ It is the cause of pain and misery and wise men cannot stand by without doing something about it.

    Deepak: You keep criticizing every line anyone posts, but you never simply come out with your true perspective.

  • Vj ~ How can the intellect of a Hindu acknowledge the true perspective when it is static (lack of reason)?

    Deepak: Let it out share what you perceive?

  • Vj ~ I have been doing it along and yet you haven't perceived anything which means you must first learn to develop a functional intellect by being inquisitive. You can start by reading the Light of Truth

    Rohit: I have posed four questions and you have chosen not to answer any of them.

  • Vj ~ More like you have chosen not to look into them. To begin with, it would be unwise of me to prove the existence of God to a fool, but it is within my humble experience to show one the way to achieving the self-realization and therefore knowing the Supreme.

    Rohit: Instead you have provided a link to your website, which only describes how every existing religion is bad.

  • Vj ~ If you don't know what is bad how can you ascertain what is good? How else can true religion be recognized?

    Rohit: It does not provide answers to my questions.

  • Vj ~ It took Swami Dayanand more than half of his life time and me, double that to find the answer, it would really surprise me if an idiot like you could do it by the momentary flash of the pages on my website. The answers you seek is attained through subjective knowledge which only the individual must ascertain by his/her own efforts.

    Rohit: When you are repeatedly asked to prove why you think something is false, or what is your conception of truth, you choose to ignore that as well.

  • Vj ~ Perhaps to fool it is ignoring, but a wise man does not put a cart before the horse. Why discuss God when one must first develop good reasoning habits guided by the correct knowledge?

    Rohit: As far as the Vedas are concerned, it appears you have scant knowledge of them,

  • Vj ~ Not surprising at all to me. Don't let the appearance fool you as the idol of the Hindu is.

    Rohit: because the four questions I have posed are also in them.

  • Vj ~ Really! That's news to me!

    Rohit: The Vedas are a direct revelation to the Rishis and provide answers to the questions I have posed.

  • Vj ~ Excellent, then you don't have to bother me anymore for the answers.

    Rohit: By choosing not to answer them, it is very clear that you have no clue, what you are talking about.

  • Vj ~ Either that, or I am too wise to do what God Himself cannot do - cure a fool.

    Rohit: The Vedic revelation is meant for ALL men. This Universe operates on the law of God, not the law of man.

  • Vj ~ So why aren't your quarrels with the Hindus instead when their religion breach His attributes (anthropomorphic) and the immutable laws of God (Hanoman swallowing the sun and those incarnations that came into being without the reproductive element).

    Rohit: Who are you to claim exclusive rights to something about which you have such poor knowledge?

  • Vj ~ And where have I established a copyright for my site or my discussions? Truth is one and is for all and whoever acquires this wisdom by his own practice, it becomes his own.

    Dialogue 13 - No wonder you failed, your belief lacked reasoning.
    Back to contents

    Reply to Vishal - Thursday, August 5, 1999
    Vish: Namaste! As an ex-Arya Samaji myself, I think I can attempt to answer a couple of questions raised by.
  • Vj ~ Seems you had a rocky divorce. I am sure Arya Samaj will be better off without your kind.

    Vish: Before that, let me assure you that I have read the following works of Maharshi Dayanand Sarasvati (The last Vedic reformer)

  • Vj ~ Only shows you came short of the meaning. What more explanation one needs for being a failure? After reading or listening and in doubt seek a Guru, ask questions and go into meditation to commune between right and wrong. Did you not read this part of the Light of Truth? Obviously you didn't and it is no wonder you are still a fool.

    Vish: Suffice it to say that I am well read in the literature of Arya Samaj (An organization he later formed)

  • Vj ~ Now if you can only practice it. Swamji (altruistic teacher) warned of how a little bit of knowledge, without practice, can be dangerous.

    Vish: Swamiji has indeed made a very compelling case against Icon-worship and has denounced the Puranas thoroughly. For people who state that there is some truth in these, he retorts: "Will you eat grains that are stained with poison"?

  • Vj ~ So you decided to eat the Puranas.

    Vish: I too believed in what Swamiji stated and still believe in much of what he says

  • Vj ~ No wonder you failed, your belief lacked reasoning.

    Vish: Nevertheless, out of curiosity, I started to read the Vishnu Purana one day and was quite pleasantly surprised.

  • Vj ~ I can't wait till you read the Q'uran (Islamic revelation), you will be more than sexually surprised.

    Vish: There is a wealth of edifying parables, beautiful maxims etc.

  • Vj ~ So is the Q'uran with 4 wives now, and later, 72 beautiful virgins, rivers of wine, milk and honey, all for the sensual and lustful in Paradise.

    Vish: True that Manusmriti (Manu the law-giver) etc. has been corrupted with interpolations.

  • Vj ~ It is indeed very strange that you can see corruption in the ManuSmriti and none in Vishnu Purana.

    Vish: But scholars are working day in and out to separate these.

  • Vj ~ Why is it necessary "to separate these" when a blind idiot like you became an ex-Arya Samaj? Isn't that what the mission of Swami Dayanand was?

    Vish: In any case, we have the dictum--"Reject a Smriti if it contradicts the Vedas."

  • Vj ~ Rejection for the static intellect is not possible until you can reason with a discriminating intellect to know what is truth and what is false. All the Hindu puranas including the Vishnu Purana contradicts the Vedas. It seems your “dictum” is way down in your linga.

    Vish: Swamiji is partially correct when he states that Vedas do not preach Idol worship. However, his interpretation of the Mantra 'Na tasya pratima asti yasya nama maha..." is not entirely correct.

  • Vj ~ The Swami has most certainly wasted a lot of years seeking his knowledge through Gurus (teachers), when 'Swami' Vishal acquired his Swamihood without the company of Gurus.

    Vish: I also agreed that idol worship has degenerated a lot. But, it is not entirely worthless. It has inspired wonderful art and architecture in India, beautiful literature--the richness that the Hindu Dharma is associated with.

  • Vj ~ What is the sense of beautiful literature and architecture when souls are relegated by false practices (Hinduism) to pain and misery? It is “idol worshipped” that has degenerated the intellects, so terrible it has been that nothing rational can come out a Hindu.

    Vish: Plus, the Vedic literature does contain some slight indications of Icon worship.

  • Vj ~ So why weren't there icon-worship in the Vedic ages? It seems you are ahead of the Rihis of yore who had no idea or couldn't figure it out.

    Vish: From the context, it is clear that Vedavyasji is trying to say that we should treat 'Idols' only as an aid in worship, and not as God Himself.

  • Vj ~ If the Vedas is the source of all true knowledge, it must be free of contradictions. What you have just quoted is in contradiction to Ashegan's quote
    (Andantama pravishinti yay sam bhootim upaasate, tato bhooya eva ye tamo, yahoo sam bhootyam ratah)

    "They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the material cause of the world (matter) in place of the all-pervading god, but those who worship visible things born of matter, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) (ie. images) in place of god are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into a hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time" YAJURVEDA XL.9

    Only an idiot like yourself would accept your commentaries over that of Swami Dayanand?

    Vish: I think, this is the correct way of treating icon worship.

  • Vj ~ It is truly fitting of an idiot who is never sure of himself.

    Vish: The Puranas are not redundant books and recently, scholars have used them to construct the History of ancient India.

  • Vj ~ If the Puranas are a mixture of mythology and untruths, with some truths, it is quite evident that only a Hindu will accept it as authentic.

    Vish: Such is my opinion and many Arya Samajist scholars also seem to have found this view.

  • Vj ~ Vj ~ The use of it to prove history will suffice for the ignorant, but the thought of working towards salvation by it, is a grave mistake.

    Dialogue 14 - Being an emancipated soul is good enough for me.
    Back to contents

    In Reply to Vishal - Friday, August 6, 1999
    Vish: It is really sad that you have chosen to behave like a fanatic and an ill-mannered person and have used derogatory words for others.
  • Vj ~ If there are uncomfortable moments in your life then your religion has certainly done you an injustice by depriving you of perpetual happiness.

    Vish: Apparently, you consider Swamiji infallible, when he himself never made claims to this effect.

  • Vj ~ He may have never made the claim, but being an emancipated soul is good enough for me. Even if he is fallible, you (Hindu) are definitely not in any position to contradict him.

    Vish: Our silence should not be construed as a sign of our inability to answer questions posed by you.

  • Vj ~ I have never suggested silence, since those weak (static) in intellect can never ascertain truth by it.

    Vish: Rather, it should mean that we have utmost respect for those of his teachings that we accept.

  • Vj ~ I am sure you have the utmost respect for Christ also, irrespective of his teachings, but what benefit would that be to you or any other soul?

    Vish: If you think that Swamiji was always correct and that Aryas alone are good then consider these.

  • Vj ~ It is not what I think but what I know. How can one who have read so much of Dayanand's work, the Vedas, Upanishads, Darshanas, etc. still be so ignorant? It simply shows that one will always be void of wisdom if the correct knowledge even though known, is not practiced. Anyone who abandons knowledge as preached by the Light of Truth for that of the Puranas is a reviler of the true Vedas and is sunk into the deepest depth of misery.

    Vish: 1. In the 12th Samullasa of Satyartha Prakash, Swamiji states that Mahavira and Buddha were one and the same person. This is totally wrong and we know for sure that they were different persons.

  • Vj ~ Shows how much you are ignorant of whom a Rishi might be. Rishis are not historians and the Vedas contains no reference to anything historical which means when there is wisdom there is no need for history to prove anything.

    Vish: 2. Quoting Sushruta Samhita, Swamiji states that a 16 year old girl is equivalent to a 25 year old man, a 25 year old girl is equal to a 48 year old man for marraige and so on. Not only does one not find this Shloka in the Sushruta Samhita, but also I do not see any Arya Samajis marrying off their 16 year old daughters. Not do I see them marrying their 25 year old daughters to 48 year old men.

  • Vj ~ You have never seen a Rishi also, how do you know there were Rishis? Not because it is not so today because of dense ignorance, it weren’t a practice in the Vedic age of true knowledge.

    Vish: 3. Swamiji advocated Niyoga and even found this practice in some Veda mantras. Name even one Arya Samaji family, which has allowed their women to practice Niyoga.

  • Vj ~ If only you had a clue to what righteousness is comprised of, you would have no doubts of the practice of Niyoga in Vedic times. It was advocated as a practice for all classes except that of the Dwijas (twice-born). It is not practice today, because such righteousness does not exist today and only righteous conditions bring forth good souls. Those days, it was knowledge first, then family and when people are imbued with piety they have virtual control of their sexual desires and only exercised it strictly for the purpose of procreation (family). I see nothing wrong in it then nor will it be now among the pious, if there are any to practice it.

    Vish: 4. Swamiji recommended that the Vedas should be studied with the Samhita, Pada and Krama and in his Samskaravidhi, he states that 12 years should be devoted to studying the 4 Samhitas. I do not see any Arya Samaji being able to accomplish that for the simple reason that it is virtually impossible to learn the Samhita-Pada-Krama of all the 4 Vedas in 12 years. It normally takes 12 years for each Veda. In any case, the 'Study-Cirriculum' suggested by Swamiji is so antiquated and anachronistic that the 'DAV' schools have discarded it. I do not think that even the Gurukula Kangri or Gurukula Indraprastha are able to follow it. For one, where will they get Athavaveda Parayana Brahmanas???

  • Vj ~ All that glitters is not gold, so why not try to infer sometimes. If all your knowledge lies in what you see, what would happen if you should become blind? It is only impossible because you are a man with no intelligence. A Guru is necessary but the soul must come with the right inclinations also to succeed, is the answer to what you cannot see. The Swami never advocated such an achievement to be possible among fools. Do you know of a school where in a single classroom all students achieved A grade, even though expose to the same time, subject and teacher?

    Vish: 5. You seem to be so proud of the commentaries of Swamiji on the Vedas. Well, Swamiji himself never claimed that his commentaries were perfect. In his lifetime, when he attempted to get his commentaries compulsory reading for Sanskrit students under the Punjab University, his pleas were rejected on the grounds that his Bhasyas were 'Pramana Sunya." To this, Swamiji merely quipped that he has attempted to stimulate further research in the Vedas by composing these Bhasyas (read "Maharshi Dayanand ka Jivan Charitra" published by Arsha Sahitya Prasar Trust).

  • Vj ~ Depends on who is doing the reporting here, if it is some one who reveres the Puranas like you do, what truth can there be in it?

    Vish: Anyone with a little knowledge of the Vedas would inform you that the correct meaning of the Vedas cannot be ascertained without the accent marks. So, we can well say that Swamiji would not have been able to comment on the Atharva Veda correctly.

  • Vj ~ The meaning of the mantras were not made known by "accent marks", but by the method dedicated communion to the Supreme by a realized soul. What is the need of the Swami commenting on the other Vedas when you are yet to grasp the little he has done? Furthermore, when a soul has made its mark in its quest for this wisdom the little the Swami has left is enough to propel it into glory. If that is not enough, then know that you are an idiot born to relive many births in pain and misery.

    Vish: 6. You have said earlier that Mulashankar (later Swamiji) turned away from idol worship at the age of 14. That is utter rubbish. The incident only created doubts in his mind and he persisted in defending Puranas for a few decades after that.

  • Vj ~ If ever a day comes in this life when you can start to reason, you would come to know that doubt becomes the first step to a functional intellect. Whatever he carried on with, was due to that of a Hindu background, but nevertheless, it all started with the murti (idol). As always if you had gone to the Light of Truth with the humble intention of seeking true knowledge, instead of finding faults, you would not have been the idiot you are today. The Rishi did not come to hand us salvation, he merely came to show us the way.

    Vish: 7. Sorry to disappoint you but Swamiji did not really have a good grasp of history. He believed that the Vedic Dharma reigned supreme till 3000 BCE. If this is true, then how would he explain the archaeological discoveries in Sumer, China etc. which clearly show a Non-Vedic religion?

  • Vj ~ Swamji came at a time when the world was immerse in dense ignorance and whatever attempts were made by historical references (correct or incorrect) were to aid the weak to grasp some truth that had existed in an earlier civilization. Eventually when one has acquired a discriminating intellect (knowing right from wrong) then there would be no need for history or even science of archaeology (whether the swami was right or wrong about it) to ascertain this truth. No wise man would do extensive research in history for the purpose of establishing truth when he already knows what is the truth. A little history only serves as a push for an inquisitive mind to begin the search by proper reasoning and if guided by the correct knowledge there is no way the mind can fail it.

    Vish: 8. While criticizing the Vaishnavas, Swamiji equates Yamunacharya with 'Yavanacharya' and claims that he was a Mleccha. This is totally wrong. Sri Yamunacharya was a Misra Brahmin from North India whose ancestors had migrated to Tamil Nadu.

  • Vj ~ Any way you put it, I am still happy that the swami came, instead of you. God knows by now I would have probably committed suicide in shame of such ignorance as you profess.

    Vish: 9. Swamji's knowledge about the Vedic literature as such was also not perfect. He said that the Shakalya Samhita of the Rigveda was the 'MulaRigveda', the Kauthuma Samhita if the Samaveda was the original Samaveda and so on. Really speaking, these are but one of the many Shakhas of Rigveda/Samaveda.

  • Vj ~ Again it is not the swami's wisdom that would be our emancipation, but his guidance. The Swami warned that knowledge without a discriminating intellect (reasoning) is dangerous. You have completely ignored his 4 steps to proper reasoning where you are supposed to first see your own fault before the Swami's.

    Vish: 10. Contrary to your assertion, everything cannot be found in the Vedas. For instance, Swamiji advocated 'Yajnopavita' but no such ceremony is prescribed in the Vedic literature. Only recently, an 'Upananayana Brahmana' of the Kathaka Shakha came to light in Kashmir (and Swamiji was not aware of it).

  • Vj ~ And who is ready for everything in the Vedas? If you weren't as stupid as you are, you would know that even a doctor doesn't know everything after his lengthy studies in medicine, and that it comes with experience. If we cannot control our sexual desire, abstain from meat, alcohol and tobacco it will hardly be of any value to the soul to do Homa and Sandhya. When purity is attained then Homa and Sandhya must be done twice a day if not, of what benefit would other yajnas be to us. Only an idiot like you would want to know it all without practicing it.

    Vish: 11. I had given alternate meanings of the Yajurveda mantras. If you think that you should not accept my interpretation, then you should give sound reasons for it. Don't just behave like a narrow-minded person. The fact is that hardly any Arya Samajist himself studies the Veda Bhasyas of Swamiji!!!

  • Vj ~ I have neither accept nor reject any interpretation, because without a discriminating intellect no interpretation can be of benefit to anyone. It would lead to self-egoism and you are a splendid example of one.

    Vish: 12. Swamiji sometimes made wrong statements about our Shastras. For instance, he has recommended the 'Bhaguri' Bhasya on the Samkhya sutras.

  • Vj ~ India and the world were in need of a reformer, and they got one. If he is accused of being wrong, then much is left to cure the ignorance of his accusers.

    Vish: The wise should understand by these few points only.

  • Vj ~ The wise is now responding. You have indeed read extensively but I see it as more as degradation to the soul rather than an upliftment. I am happy I have used up much of time to acquire reasoning (a discriminating intellect) instead of doing such extensive reading otherwise the same faith (ignorance) would have befallen me.

    Vish: I have no intention of abusing Swamiji.

  • Vj ~ It wouldn't matter since wise men are immune to abuse and vanity.

    Vish: And I think we do not necessarily have to agree with someone in order to respect him.

  • Vj ~ Only the wise knows what is respect since their thoughts are in harmony with each other. Respect for anything else but true knowledge, is tolerance for ignorance, which in fact, is demeaning and a tremendous degradation to the soul.

    Vish: Swamiji's short Autobiography and all biographies show that he was a simple man who quickly accepted his errors. He was very open minded and innocent, and rather naive in worldly matters, being a Dandi Paramahamsa Sannyasi . Not a close minded, egotist like you.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious that you are hypocrite to acknowledge his simplicity, open-mindedness and innocence while rejecting the knowledge that made him so. How can one accredit him with such glory and yet accused him of errors? Even if there were errors, what intelligent person would leave Arya Samaj when his mission to make all as simple as him was his only objective.

    Vish: Swamiji asked Aryas to perform Yajnas from the Agnihotra to the Aswamedha and read the Vedas in their Samhita, Krama and Padapathas. Tell me how many times you have done that.? How many times have you done Yogabhayasa?

  • Vj ~ No, he said to strive for purity of the physical body first, then the mind (discriminating intellect) and lastly the soul, in this order. I am presently working on the intellect where are you? I can tell, you are working backwards, feeding the soul with "Yajnas from the Agnihotra to the Aswamedha and read the Vedas in their Samhita, Krama and Padapathas" without purity and intellect. No wonder the vulgar and obscene Hindu Puranas have found a place in your garbage dump (home library).

    Vish: Read my earlier post carefully and compare the meanings of the Yajurveda mantras in his Bhasyas--do not just restrict yourself to the verses quoted in the Satyartha Prakash, which too you do not seem to understand perfectly.

  • Vj ~ You are putting oil (Vedic philosophy) in an engine (your intellect) that does not work. Where is the sense in this? It is obvious that if you had the perfect understanding of the Light of Truth you would not have abandoned his mission of the Arya Samaj to make the world noble.

    Vish: If you wish, I can later expound how the Vedic teachings and Moorti Pooja are not inconsistent. But before that, you need to give satisfactory and 'Logical' (since you are so fond of the word 'Logic') replies to the above 12 pints/ or acknowledge these at least.

  • Vj ~ I said earlier, which you did not respond to, that, Hinduism breaches the attributes of God and the immutable laws of nature. If you don't know this how can you explain anything that bares any logic?

    Vish: This forum is not the appropriate place for getting too technical. Nor do I have enough time to waste here.

  • Vj ~ The rational inquires made to determine truth is never a waste of time and a wise man, through the act righteousness, is always rewarded with all the time in the world he needs to discuss truth.

    Dialogue 15 - Adoration to mediators leads to mental thralldom.
    Back to contents

    In Reply to Vishal on Sunday, August 8, 1999
    Vish: Since Anarya Dasyu Vijay... .
  • Vj ~ An Anarya Dasyu is one who reviles the Vedas and therefore would be one that is not the follower of Swami Dayanand.

    Vish: ...has failed to address any of the 13 points raised by me suitably, the debate is closed from my end.

  • Vj ~ I have replied to all your points but if you lack reasoning I can see your refusal to participate anymore. I respond to all posts irrespective of its suitability because my humble mission is to enlighten all souls and not only those who are looking for suitable answers.

    Vish: Merely writing some words does not mean that the questions have been replied to

  • Vj ~ It is not only some words, but has a lot of reasoning behind it. As I said you have read well, but because of your failure of acquiring a discriminating intellect instead, all your reading have now failed you.

    Vish: Vijay is treating Swamiji's words as Infallible when Swamiji himself did not even consider himself as the President of the Arya Samaj or any kind of leader.

  • Vj ~ The Rishi was an altruistic teacher and his mission was to dispel ignorance not to become a pontiff, president or prophet. He declared that adoration to mediators leads to mental thralldom, so why would he want to become one?

    Vish: Thus, if Swamiji were around, he would have been horrified to see that Vijay is making supernatural claims about him.

  • Vj ~ It would have suited him better rather than you (a traitor) abandoning his mission.

    Vish: Swamiji wanted his followers to have an independent mind of their own--something which is clearly lacking in Vijay.

  • Vj ~ A mind, inculcating the proper reasoning habits (and in conformity with natural laws) with the guidance of the correct knowledge is what the Swami meant by "independent mind of their own". Since I am still propagating his message, it is you who are lacking a rational independent mind.

    Vish: But Anarya Vijay certainly reveres him like a cult deity.

  • Vj ~ Is not better to revere his wisdom, instead of an idol? At least, it shows that one must be wise to revere wisdom, while it is ignorance to worship an image.

    Vish: People took advantage of his innocence and tried to harm him.

  • Vj ~ People? Weren't those people Hindus? Are you such a coward that you are afraid of the truth, which might be offending to a Hindu?

    Vish: Such numerous instances from his life are a source of inspiration to all Hindus, not the ravings and ranting of Vijay.

  • Vj ~ An inspiration indeed, is this why you abandon his mission to join the fold of Hinduism which he adamantly fought against?

    Vish: A point to ponder however: Ashegan pointed out that according to Swamiji, idol worship started only with the Jainees. So, my question is, how can the Vedas which are eternal, condemn 'Pratima Poojana' when it was not present before Jains started it?

  • Vj ~ Bhai Ashegan is correct. The mantra "Naatasya pratima asti......" in the Yajur Veda. Means there is no physical representation meaning He is formless. While "pratima" means "representation" as well as "idol" also, it is the context in which it is used. For example the word "present" carries two meaning but it is the context in which it is taken, that will determine the true meaning.

    Vish: In his Rigvedadi Bhasyabhumika and also in the Satyartha Prakasha, Swamiji has emphasized that the Vedas are 'Nitya' and there is no mention of 'Anitya' things in them.

  • Vj ~ And if you had any brains you would have taken it in the right context knowing that the Vedas is the ultimate truth and there can be nothing contradictive in it. Similarly, Krishna said - Divi soorya sahasrasya bhaved yugapad...." Gita - meaning the splendor of a thousand suns blazing forth all at once as the resemblance of the exalted Being and when he said "surrender to me" it was in the realized state of Divine Bliss (Yogishvara)- samaadhi and didn't mean he was physically God (anthropomorphic), which would be in contradiction to the Vedas.

    Vish: So, we are lead to the logical corollary that Idol Worship cannot be condemned in the Vedas if it was adopted by the Hindus from Jains. Or else, the Vedas are Anitya and cannot be 'Swatahpramana' (Axiomatic truth) as claimed by Swamiji. Can Ashegan please clarify?

  • Vj ~ You lack the discriminating intellect needed for a rational discussion of the Vedic philosophy. It is no wonder you left the fold of the Swami's Arya Samaj. Any idiot that contradicts the teachings of such a great Rishi is a tumble weed blowing in the wind with no sense of direction.

    Vish: It is clear that the induction of condemnation of Idol worship is not intrinsic to the meaning of the Yajurveda Mantra quoted. BTW, we can easily prove that Murti Puja existed in India before Jainis started it, but I will refrain from doins so here.

  • Vj ~ What is clear, is that you are an idiot doom to the deepest depth of misery. I confronted you with the question of Hinduism breaching the attributes of God and immutable laws of nature. It is truly amazing, with all you have read of the Vedas, Shaastras, Upanishads, etc., a wonderful display of ego to the ignorant Hindus I must admit, you are yet to respond to it. Why? My bet is that you are going to run away and hide, not in shame, because in ignorance there is no shame, but as an egoistic hero of the idol-worshippers.

    Vish: Anarya Vijay should read the Ashtadhyayi and Mahabhashya if he is interested, in addition to the references I pointed out earlier.

  • Vj ~ As far as I know, it didn't do you any good.

    Dialogue 16 - The rejection of the God you know is a functional intellect.
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    Reply to Mukunda, on Tuesday August 05, 1999
    Muk: Again the Vedas teach us that every person is eligible for Moksha even a stupid or lost soul.
  • Vj ~ All are eligible but not while in the state of ignorance. If it weren't so, then what would be the purpose of acquiring wisdom, when a fool with no effort can achieve Moksha (salvation) without it? No sensible Chancellor would issue a university degree to both a brilliant scholar and a total dunce (idiot) and if your god is that stupid to do it, then as an idiot, you are surely deserving of him.

    Muk: You said: "There is one path (functional intellect)leading to one right path (discriminating intellect) leading to one true path (realized intellect). Any other way is false." This statement just shows your understanding of the word and spirit of the Vedas is wrong. If the Vedas were as closed minded as you then how did all these different philosophies of Advaita, Dvaita, Visisthadvaita, Bhedaabheda Vada, and others come from? These philosophies came because the Vedas are not restricted by closed minds or beliefs.

  • Vj ~ The functional intellect requires the rejection of the God you know, to start your inquires. The Satyartha Prakash is your guide to understanding the Shastras, etc. which is the means of acquiring a discriminating intellect. Lastly, a realized intellect is the study and contemplation of the Vedas (mantras). I see no contradictions in my statement.

    Muk: The knowledgeable Vishal has already mounted a very powerful and logical argument so I don’ need to try and further that.

  • Vj ~ He will be in need of all the help he can get after my response. So “powerful and logical” is his argument that he has decided to abandon this dialogue.

    Muk: A. YES. we step on one stone and worship another stone: Odd indeed: The stone we step on has not been modified, purified or sanctified.

  • Vj ~ Then a Muslim or a Christian can attain Moksha also since there are no shortages of stones anywhere, if it is that simple.

    Muk: Arya: means one of noble birth and possesses noble characteristics. Vijai, you for one can't hold that name.

  • Vj ~ Just as one is not born a Brahman, etc., so too one is not born an Arya, he/she becomes one. Now that you know what it means when will you begin the knowledgeable task of becoming one? A shudra by studies of the Vedas can become an Arya, whilst a Brahman by neglect and greed can become a shudra.

    Muk: Reading the responses to Vishal's and my questions and arguments, you have again done what you are so good at doing, avoiding the question.

  • Vj ~ Whether I answer it or not it won't be of any benefit to you, since all you need for Moksha, is prostration to an idol or dip in the Ganges.

    Muk: Let me ask you what puranas, itihasas, shastras or vedas have you read?

  • Vj ~ Anyone who have only "read" all of those books are Hindus and those who have read it and seek the meaning of them, through strenuous practice, cannot be a Hindu.

    Muk: It is already evident you came into this discussion with preconceived ideas about your superiority to us.

  • Vj ~ Isn't it better than coming in as a fool, otherwise how else can Hindus be enlightened.

    Muk: Both in scriptural knowledge, intelligence and in spirituality.

  • Vj ~ Had the Hindus not lacked it, they would have been able to defend Mother India not only from all invading forces, but their own ignorance.

    Muk: But all your readings of Swami Dayanand has yet to teach you the essence of the Vedas, which has slipped your grasp.

  • Vj ~ How could it when I am not a Hindu? I know if it ever slips my grasp there is no Moksha for me. Whether it slips you or not you still attain Moksha.

    Muk: I have pointed out few of the large amounts of lines from the Vedas, which refute your close-minded views.

  • Vj ~ Why bother, whether you prove me to be a fool, or wise man makes no difference since both according to Hinduism attains Moksha.

    Muk: You have yet to produce any evidence that shows us how our idol-worship or smriti reading is wrong.

  • Vj ~ Any God (Ganesha) who drinks milk to fatten himself while millions of children are dying of hunger is as ignorant as the Hindus themselves. What more proof do you need?

    Muk: All you have done so far is either assert your own views or the views of Swami Dayananda Saraswati.

  • Vj ~ It is obvious, if you are in a pile of waste matter you can't smell anything else but waste matter even if I throw you some sweet smelling fragrance. When truth is one all views become one also. This is called harmony through proper reasoning.

    Muk: The Vedas are all "Hindus" ultimate authority.

  • Vj ~ Not if your Gods sex, walk, eat, drink (milk), shave, excrete and sleep.

    Muk: Your messages show that your understanding of the scriptures is at best feeble.

  • Vj ~ What is quite interesting, is how an idiot like you can make such an assertion without feeling any remorse for your own ignorance.

    Muk: Yes a Muslim or Christian can attain moksha if they can learn to look past all their dogmas and see Brahman within and without all of us.

  • Vj ~ I thought, all they had to do was step on a stone as you do. Again, if they "look past all their dogmas and see Brahman within" they won't be Christians or Muslims anymore, which means a Christian or Muslim cannot attain moksha.

    Muk: What are the attributes of God and what are the immutable laws of nature?

  • Vj ~ Haven't you read the "puranas, itihasas, shastras or vedas"? I thought you said the Vedas is your authority?

    Muk: Explain how Hinduism breaches both of these?

  • Vj ~ This "feeble mind" could, but why do so, when even without it, it is good enough for moksha?

    Muk: I want to see your arguments in the next post instead of floating around in your head.

  • Vj ~ At least I have something in my head, but when a Hindu can gain Mukti (salvation) with an empty head, why bother to put anything in it?

    Muk: I want to see your logic, which you so greatly speak about.

  • Vj ~ Logic requires reasoning not sight, meaning that even the blind has a chance to acquire it.

    Dialogue 17 - How do you know you are not the one confused?
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    Reply to arjun on Ashegan, Saturday, August 7, 1999
    Arj: You couldn’t not see how us “Hindus” of many different beliefs have been standing united against you and that moron Vijai Singh’s ridiculous points of view.
  • Vj ~ Bhai Ashegan and I are united, also, so it is obvious he is speaking of the disunity of many Gods instead of one. I know the truth will always offend the ignorant. Furthermore, I can understand why you see me as a moron and obviously the assassinated Swami Dayanand, but it still does not solve the problem of anti-Vedic practices.

    Arj: Year’s back you nearly converted to Islam, that itself shows not only were you confused then, but even now you’re still confused..

  • Vj ~ How do you know you are not the one confused since you have never even bothered to examine the tenets of other religions against reasoning and the immutable laws of nature?

    Arj: You talk about Hindu unity, but people like you and that pseudo philosopher “Vijai Singh” are the biggest dangers to Hinduism,

  • Vj ~ You left out "the" biggest danger, Swami Dayanand. Had it not been for him you idiots would have still been sweltering under British Raj. Is it not the greatest shame on Hinduism, when such a great Rishi had high praises for even the occupiers of his own country.
    "If you expel the English, then, no later than tomorrow, you and I and everyone who rises against idol-worship, will have our throats cut like mere sheep." Swami Dayanand.
    Is there a sensible Hindu who could be proud of such an era of our nation? Do you need any other reason why he chose instead to liberate Hindus from the fold of centuries of thralldom, rather than personally leading the drive to free India from foreign subjugation? Could any sensible Hindu blame him for seeing their ignorance as a greater threat to India and the world than her British occupiers?

    Arj: Because with fanatic Muslims or Christians, us “Hindus” know where we stand but with people like you who hide among us as “Hindus, ”the danger is that you start to destroy us from the inside.

  • Vj ~ You are already destroyed in the inside why else you are destructible? The real enemy is neither Christians nor Muslims nor us but Hinduism, which is not only the greatest threat to India but to every human soul on the planet.

    Arj: Since coming on this forum, you and that moron ”Vijai Singh” have been insulting and ridiculing our Scriptures, gods and beliefs,

  • Vj ~ It only shows the weaknesses of your "Scriptures, gods and beliefs". Had there been truth in them, they could have never been subjected to insults and ridicule from mere 'morons'.

    Arj: It shows whatever you both learnt at the Arya Samaj, has left you both with arrogance and a massive ego.

  • Vj ~ Then we are also proud of it, if "arrogance and a massive ego" is what it takes to save the soul of a Hindu.

    Arj: That moron Vijai Singh has defiantly got problems.

  • Vj ~ I could easily tell when you are not in the presence of a Murti (idol). This is why Hindus keep their Gods lock up in a special room where outside of it they can perform their usual ungodly antics. It is the very reason they were conquered by the Muslims, they were too busy hiding or burying their precious Gods (idols).

    Arj: You can see by the style of his posting, that he suffers from many psychological problems.

  • Vj ~ The style of the postings is to aid the rational mind, if there is any among Hindus, to a better understanding of the subject at hand without missing out on any small details. It is the only way of ascertaining truth instead of hopping around like a kangaroo with nothing to gain but food in the stomach while the intellect remains static.

    Arj: For this is a man (or whatever else) who leads a very boring sad and lonely life.

  • Vj ~ And may you know that it is only a Rishi who would cherish a lonely life. As a matter of fact, life could never be sad, boring and lonely for the wise, there are just too many fools around to ever let it happen.

    Arj: He can only act something big hiding behind his PC, but he wouldn’t have the guts to say anything in someone's face!!!!!.

  • Vj ~ Am I to suppose, you have your backside facing your PC? Swami Dayanand's greatest fear was his compassion for the poor souls that would maim or kill him and it is no different with me, Bhai Ashegan and all those who follow his teachings.

    Arj: I can understand now if you both want to put me down

  • Vj ~ How can we do that, when you are already down? What other reasons do we have to be here but to give you a lift?

    Arj: Because- “THE TRUTH ALWAYS HURTS”

  • Vj ~ On the contrary, whenever truth hurts know that you dwell in ignorance or you are "down". Truth is the greatest protector of the human soul, it is meant to elevate and conquer, not to subject one to fear, cowardice and suffering.

    Arj: From your doctor, ARJUN.

  • Vj ~ Try to be a doctor where you can cure the ills of the eternal soul and not the body which is only transient. Seek the Rishi's wisdom and it will free you of all sorrows.

    Dialogue 18 - A Guru's greatness can only be determined by his students' wisdom.
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    Reply to arjun on Sunday, August 8, 1999
    Arj: You have proven your lack of knowledge.
  • Vj ~ Amazing! How would you know since it is not necessary for Moksha (salvation)? Even if I lack knowledge, the worst I can become, is a Hindu and if you think that is so terrible then you are in serious trouble.

    Arj: Yes Swami Dayanand was a great guru, but ONE of many.

  • Vj ~ A Guru's greatness can only be determined by his students' wisdom. It is truly baffling to simple common sense, how an idiot and I can come to the same conclusion?

    Arj: Even for Swami Dayanand's learning, the Veda’s had to be preserved in the first place.

  • Vj ~ Had you idiots, studied and practice it instead of only preserving it, the Swami would not have died because of it. He would have spent all his time enlightening the world instead of wasting it on Hinduism's backwardness.

    Arj: And this is all thanks to the many thousands of Hindus (who you claim as cowardly) who fought and sacrificed their lives over the centuries to preserve our "GREAT HINDU CULTURE AND RELIGION".

  • Vj ~ It shows that Hinduism wasn't that great since they had to fight to preserve it. When something gloriously divine as the Vedas did not protect Hindus from centuries of humiliation and subjugation, know that they raped, mauled, maimed, rejected and reviled it.

    Arj: How many of then “known or unknown” went to the gallows during British rule we will never know.

  • Vj ~ They went to the gallows, because of a traitorous Hindu named Gandhi who preached something he himself lack the understanding of, Ahimsa (non-voilence).

    Arj: And you have the audacity to come on this forum to ridicule our "GREAT HINDU HERITAGE".

  • Vj ~ It was the "Great Guru" you earlier showered praises on, who started it.

    Arj: THE GREATEST SHAME IS ON YOU!!!!

  • Vj ~ Apparently you haven't read the Swami's quote.
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    "Just as color cannot be perceived by ears, nor sound by eyes; in like manner, the Eternal Supreme Spirit is not perceptible to the senses. He can only be seen by a pure soul through the purity of heart, acquisition of knowledge and the practice of yoga. Just as one cannot reap the advantages of knowledge without acquiring it, likewise the Supreme Spirit cannot be seen without the practice of yoga and gaining the highest knowledge." The Light of Truth

    Translation

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