I'm not Jewish and can't really comment on your topic from a Jewish perspective.

However, I've been the token Pagan around here for over a year and so have learned a few things.

The virgin birth idea has nothing to do with Judaism. That's a Christian thing.

Judiasm is nothing like Christianity. It's a whole different religion.

Hello Tzippi4 - November 12, 1998
No offense Vj, but you do not understand Judaism at all. As far as what you are preaching, proseletyzing is a no no.

This is a Jewish Board, designed for fellowship and for discussion of Jewish ideas.

I read some of your posts awhile back, in the general folders, I believe. I also do not find them to be more in line with truth, than Judaism.....and Judaism is very much in line with Science.

While I am usually open to discussion and sharing of ideas and Faith systems, this is not the place to do that.

I'm glad you have found your path.

If there is anything you want to know or discuss about our Faith system, you are more than welcome to stay and do so!!!

Hello ellenmarshall - November 13, 1998
Vijai, your understanding is not our understanding and that is fine.

But we don't permit proselytizing on these boards.

It has nothing to do with not having answers for your questions it has to do with not desiring to fight about these things.

The things you aver are not in keeping with Jewish belief.

If you wish to learn about these things, I suggest that you study them.

It sounds to me that you came here to tell everyone that they are wrong.

It is my hope that you will rethink your methods. If you came to discuss things with people without creating discord, perhaps you could have come to ask them questions rather than telling them outright that they are wrong and demanding that they meet your objections.

If you believe in your faith, that is wonderful.

Jews believe that the righteous of every faith have a portion in the World-to-Come.

Hello Night Wind13 - November 14, 1998
NW -- VJ, the above pre-supposes it is impossible for people to follow different paths and have different beliefs and still be friends

That presupposition is erroneous because I'm a Pagan and the community here is Jewish and we all get along fine.

There's no "discord." I hate to break it to ya, buddy, but your underlying premise is faulty and is contradicted by the facts here

Another thing. I'm not Jewish, but from hanging out here for over a year, I've picked up a little bit.

So far you appear to know less about Judaism than I do or you would know that Judaism has no claim on being the one true religion. It's Christianity that does that.

A friend that comes to your house bearing a gift must be sure that it is an appropriate gift and that he gives it without expecting anything in return.

We do not eat shellfish as Jews. If you offer us shrimp, for example, and we do not accept it, you must understand that it is not for us. We have nothing against you and your shrimp. It is not our desire to insult you by turning down your shrimp. Shrimp is low calorie, a good source of protein so it isn't that, it just isn't for us. We can discuss shrimp all day but at the end of the day, we will still have to send you away without having accepted your gift, no matter how well intentioned it was.

Hello ellenmarshall - November 16, 1998
Vijay, what I've tried very hard to explain to you is that you came to try to change our faith to your faith and it doesn't work.

So any amount of discussion will ultimately come down to- do we want to take on your belief. We do not. If you had come originally to ask questions about our faith, we would have been happy to answer questions about it. But you came to challenge it and from that point on- it is only an exercise in ego for you.

I posted the example about shrimp as an allegory, not an intellectual example of our theology. You obviously didn't get it.

We can withstand challenges to our faith, our existence proves that, but it's a question of whether or not we wish to engage in such pointless exercise.

Do you demand "harmony" racially as well? With your thinking, harmony would indeed be achieved by having one race. White supremists believe that.

Where is your religion practiced? India perhaps? The history there would indicate the extreme wrath of the gods

Isn't there a verse in the Vedas that says basically "Perhaps no one knows, not even God". Are you saying YOU know? So where is your religion practiced? Does paradise reign, and all evil deleted? Tell us about it.

In the meantime, here's a miracle for you: After all the centuries of persecution, a small band of people have survived. And successfully. Admit it, it is an outstanding achievement. That there is a Jewish Board here, as we enter the 21st century, and you have felt compelled to come to it, is pause for thought. After all that has happened, the Jews seem to be a magnet. Even for you. While Jews have spent centuries in dialogue - it's part of the religion- a hostile approach is never welcome. It's just bad manners. I'm sure your religion teaches that.

If you're happy with whatever it is that you've got going, then I'm glad for you. These boards are for discussing Judaism.

Those of us non-Jews who hang out here do so because we like hearing Jews talk about Judaism. We don't want to hear about Judaism from non-Jews who know less than we do.

Hello Malley2 - November 16, 1998
vj - I went to the site you recommend, and I feel compelled to tell you there is a typo. You lump Judaism in with Christianity and claim both are 2000 years old. You may want to correct that. It seems so ignorant, though I'm sure it's just an oversight.

I await eagerly the information where your perfect religion is practiced.

You have insulted my intelligence twice, and insulted the Jewish people several times. I highly doubt that a tenet of your faith is to insult others. Is that the way to harmony?

Being unwilling to discuss my faith with someone who is challenging and insulting is not a sign of a lack of intelligence.

You have made many assumptions and one is that because I have not engaged you in discussion, that I don't have the intelligence and ability to do so. That is not the case.

You have assumed that I have been stuck in my own little corner of belief without being exposed to other belief systems. That is also not the case.

You have assumed that if we do not defend our belief that it is indefensible. And you would be wrong there too.

Perhaps it is time for you to defend your faith. What part of your doctrine states that you should attempt to force your beliefs on others and insult them if they don't accept it?

If the desire only comes from you because you think that you possess ultimate truth, then it is only ego that brings you here.

Ego does not equal truth.

Hello Malley2 - November 17, 1998
Where is the Vedic civilization today?

Where is this religion practiced? Please tell me which country - be precise.

What has this Vedic civilization given to the world in terms of science, medicine, art, literature, etc. If you want me to recognize the greatness of your religion, let me see the fruit that it bears. If you're it...sorry

Hello ellenmarshall - November 18, 1998
It is very wrong for you to assume that because we do not engage you in debate that we cannot.

I have read your site and while I like a lot of what it has to say, it doesn't represent Judaism correctly

If you want to understand Judaism it will take more study on your part and until you do, there's no point in discussion.

It is not the Jewish way to proselytize- we are to be "a light unto nations" not a baseball bat, like you are attempting.

You remind me of a child that is a bully that goes up and slaps someone and dares them to slap back. If they don't get sucked into the fight, the bully calls them afraid. Why can you not conceive that it might not be fear?

Hello Samboly - November 20, 1998
I would ask you what the name of your god is and what exacting is his nature, attributes, etc.., and what hat did you pull him out of,

but I do not what to talk about it on this board.

Hello Mally2 - November 25, 1998
Who exactly has the right to decide what are the 5 (or 10 - whatever) test of a "true" religion? Are you the self-declared arbitrator of these tests?

Perhaps you don't understand fully what religion is for, for different people and different cultures.

As Judaism has done you no harm what difference does it make to you?

India! Talk about despair and disaster. If your religion is practiced there, then it has failed miserably to take care of your own. Hunger, disease and poverty are a way of life there. And it is accepted as fate.

It takes a Mother Theresa to make a difference to the terribly poverty stricken.

And you've had famine and floods. And a few assassinations. You're not offering any utopia here. Just foisting your culture upon another. This is not a discussion, merely a diatribe.

The things you believe about Judaism are incorrect and your aims, while they may be altruistic, come across as very arrogant and aggressive.

So this is where we're at. We believe the same as your faith does, that the Jewish peoples' exile and misery has to do with their lack of adherence to Torah.

But our aim is to more correctly adhere to our beliefs and yours is to adhere more correctly to your beliefs.

So we'll allow you the space to do that. Please respect our wishes to do so as well.

Hello ellenmarshall - November 28, 1998
Vijai, perhaps you misunderstood Malley about selling it. I think it meant pushing it, trying to sell the message.

While you could just disseminate the information and leave it at that, you have continually referred to us as hypocrites, unintelligent, disharmonious, people uninterested in the truth and followers of false doctrines.

and told us that we were the ones that were disharmonious.

I have endeavored not to be insulting in the face of many insults. I am done.

I will no longer even attempt to listen or discuss with you anymore.

You are a sower of discord, Vijay, not a peacemaker

Are my acts, seemingly the results of my decisions, in reality echoes of another's will? Is the tyrant merely a rod of G-d's chastisement and his deeds only shadows of divine will? Is every tragedy a moral judgement by the Supreme Judge who gives and takes away? Are hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and flood truly "acts of G-d," visitations of His displeasure with an erring humanity? How then is the suffering of innocents, the torment of the ailing new born, related to a compassionate deity?

Hello Rev Phil - December 04, 1998
VJ you appear to be as dogmatic as some of the others here.

There is no one true religion.

All have elements of the one truth.

Is it not taught that each will worship at his level?

If you can understand Brahmah, then you worship at that level, If you cannot, you pay homage at the spiritual level you have attained.

No condemning others who do don follow your path.

Acceptance is better.. Rev..

And how can you prove that they are, indeed, truths universal and not just truths, as you see them?

Hello TripleMoon - December 11, 1998
TM: That these men were wise is suspect, because that cannot be proven. Man, by nature is fallible and often lends his own interpretations to that which should be concrete on its own, because of his personal desire (ego-based) to have others believe what he believes.

As for your second point, if we "assume" anything by "proper reasoning" it would be that a Supreme Being would most likely be Feminine or in the least, strongly display both aspects, and that "compassionate" and "merciful" would be fairy-tale terms and not realistic.

For scientifically speaking, death, decay and suffering are part of life, generation, and joy, and therefore must be a part of the cycle. So would not "God" therefore, be more aptly described in less froo-froo terms? More like, Balanced, Just, and Objective?

The first three stories are of people who did not follow G-d’s truth and were punished for it.

Judaism is the ONLY religion which accounts in it’s tradition for all humanity since the beginning of time. The above statement is absurd

This one is not absurd. It’s pure ignorance. What does this have to do with Judaism?

but their sons and daughters who would have to marry one another, who said incest is immoral?

How about the reasoning of someone unfortunately deprived of a True Jewish education

Since the sun and moon didn’t show up till day three

could have been 1000 billion years long each! (Is that too long?)

C) Prof. Gerald Schroeder, Author of "Gensis and the Big Bang" shows via SCIENCE, specifically, the relativity of time and space, exactly how 6 days can equal 16 billion years.

I guess your own "harmony with Science" truth goes out the window!!!

How, on earth, does His eternality mean He absolutely chose to create more than one????

Are you sure they testified that you exist?

Not worth the....

I'm surprised this post lasted this long!

Let vj read his own posts and his own responses.

vj soon left and the dead post was scooped into the EXCITE trash bin.

Peace.

Hello ellenmarshall - January 06, 1999
Vijai, we are charged by our faith to be a "light unto nations".

If you are attempting to bring light to others, why is it that you are so cruel?

Is that what you are spreading?

If "truth" doesn't bring wisdom, and wisdom doesn't bring kindness, tell me what is the point?

Hello Night-Wind13 - January 06, 1999
Ellen -- I think you're wasting your time here.

VJ is beyond hope. Akberloves is right.

The best thing is to ignore this board and eventually it'll go away.

Hello theshmoozer - January 14, 1999
VJ before you discuss judaism, study it, understand it and THEN comment about it.

You obviously know nothing about Judaism, and don't want to.

the root of prejudice.

You deny your own 5 truths.

Hello ellenmarhall - February 03, 1999
Vj ~ Nice to hear from you again, I hope it is your intention to display courage this time.
Typical Vijay strategy.

Anyone that doesn't agree with him is called a fool.

It doesn't matter to him that he doesn't understand Judaism.

He only wants to mock it, not understand it.

Hello gudgrief - February 03, 1999
Vj ~ I see you ignore the discussions at hand to lend a helping hand to a compatriot. In this case I don't know who is leading who to misery, but if you want to find out let's continue our discussions.
Did you ever wonder where stereotypes come from?

Your 5 truths or tests don't describe a religion; there appears to be no room for faith.

By your refusal to learn enough to know whereof you speak, you deny the validity of your pseudoscience

Or, if as your posts seems to indicate, you are taking pleasure in tossing out "cheap shots,"....

no wonder no one hangs around very long.

Don't complain that no one want to take part in your discussion.

Discussions don't lead to anything fruitful when they start with a blanket condemnation of the identity or status of the other party.

Hello ellenmarshall - February 05, 1999
Judaism doesn't consider other religions Satanic.

That's some sects of Christianity.

Get your facts straight first

...but we don't believe in Satan in that way. That is a Xtian view of Satan, not a Jewish view.

Hello Gudgrief - February 10, 1999
When VijaiSingh1 started this board he began his list of Five Truths with:

Vijai, you have complained that nobody wants to enter into your discussion.

So, can you start by explaining what those Nature, Attributes and Characteristics were, when and to whom they were revealed?

Now, suppose others do not agree with what you have to say on those topics.

Can you accept the fact that there may be a sincere basis for the disagreement?

If you are not able to answer that question in the affirmative, it seems to me there is nothing to discuss.

If you insist in continuing to take anti-semitic shots,

why should it surprise you that you get the reaction you get?

If you honestly believe we Jews believe in a G-d that is significantly different, someone needs a good bit of re-education.

I'll admit I wandered into this board only recently, and maybe jumped in too soon.

In the interest of fairness, I'll find the time to review every post from the beginning and see just what has transpired.

Hello ellenmarshall - February 11, 1999
How are you? Be an impartial listener and perhaps listening may serve you better.
Basically gudgrief, we read his stuff, said it was similar to Judaism and that his ideas about Judaism were wrong

and because we haven't given him an argument,

he has called us all fools

Hello ellenmarshall - February 12, 1999
Vijay, from the beginning you are the one who has acted like a school kid.

You make the accusation and tell us to defend it.

Why should we?

If you want to know about Judaism, you could ask us but you only try to create war.

You didn't come to learn about Judaism, only to make accusations.

Ask a genuine question that you want to know the answer to and you will get an honest answer.

It's not for us to put forth arguments.

If you care to go through life carrying around a bunch of uneducated, pre-conceived notions, it's your loss, not ours.

As a matter of fact your responses are sarcastic beyond comment.

When I DO go back and read through the link you provided, I'm sure I will come away with a better understanding of Eastern thought.

There is nothing self evident about any of your five truths.

They may give an open-minded person something to think about.

On the other hand, nothing you have posted here has in any way proven, substantiated, or explained why you believe your five truths......

Other than, they are true because I believe; because I believe they true, and round and round you go.

Hello gudgrief - February 13, 1999
Is there even agreement as to the validity of the Ten Commandments?

If the ten commandments were not revealed to most people and we are to conclude that they are not truth because of it, then how much less truth do you possess since your faith is known to even less of the world.

At least you must admit that through Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that most of the world is aware of the Ten Commandments.

Debating those differences would be like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

It's obvious the objectives are harmonious.

But, what's your point? That your religion predates mine and is therefore better?

Animism predates monotheism. That doesn't make sense.

"The necessity for further revelation violates the attribute of an Omniscient God, since it meant that it was necessary to add something else that was missing in a previous revelation."
--Did you really want to say that? That statement makes the case for there not being a One G-D.

We could also wander off on all sorts of fruitless tangents over the infallibility of G-D, and other esoteric theological points.

You are convinced that your belief is the only valid one.

You are not seeking knowledge, you are seeking converts?

Perhaps, G-D is none of those things we attribute to Him. Perhaps those attributes are the result of our faulty human perception.

Better we should accept that the differences are not impediments to living side-by-side in peace.