I have no doubts about mine.

You happen to be right.

I happen to be wrong.

It doesn't affect me in any way. How nice for you!

There is some curiosity on my part to see what twists and turns your propositions take.

"Vj-Because you are the ones with the history of persecution."
--You propose totally illogical "truths:"

"(ii)Inferences - God is eternal therefore we can infer that there were past creations and as well as there will be future ones."
--Not logical at all.

"(iii)Testimony - The testimonies of Rishis, sages and seers of the Vedas (altruistic teachers are all in harmony with each other."
--Not proof of anything. All Nazi thinkers were in harmony with each other. Grim analogy, but valid.

"Vj- Makes no difference if it is virgin birth, God and angels appearing in person - talking and having sexual relations - all are in violation of natural laws."
--What gall, MAN now tells g-d what he can and can not do. And, on the eighth day MAN created god...

A being that has the power to make something out of nothing in not in harmony with science.

This is a Jewish Board, designed for fellowship and for discussion of Jewish ideas.

"Vj- What better way to understand Judaism?"
Hypocrite. You later state. "true, I did not come here to learn about Judaism."

"Vj-Thank you. Help me understand why the diligent followers of religion who are supposed to be the benefactor of happiness through righteousness of religion were subjected to all sorts of predicaments, from slavery in ancient times to victimization of all sorts in modern times. Is the God of Judaism a failure to the Jews?"

Your part of the world is subject to frequent plagues, famine, other natural disasters. The people in your part of the world are truly the inheritors of G-d's beneficence.

If that were a test of true religion, they'd all fail.

"Vj- How could it be fine when our understanding differs? Reasoning tells me that one understanding leads to harmony and different understanding promotes discord."
It can be fine when people of good will accept that others belive differently from themselves. Where's your good will? Is it only directed towards those who believe as you do? That's not in harmony with reasoning.

First, I take no issue with beliefs espoused by people who adhere to the five truths you posted. The issue is with your particular dishonest exposition of those truths.

I've only covered about the first 10 of your posts and it's obvious that you trap yourself in your own contradictions.

It's self-evident that this interchange can lead nowhere.

There is no value to me to try to prove your beliefs are wrong. Your beliefs don't affect or effect me.

You can't prove my beliefs are wrong because they are beliefs.

I can take issue with a persons conduct. I think yours has been inimical to being in harmony with reasoning.

That's my opinion.

You will of course have a completely different concept of reasoning

We're all using the English vocabulary and grammar in these post, but it's clear we don't speak the same language.

Even if that were true, it is only self-defeating to criticize another persons beliefs, even if they're wrong.

The better way is to show how yours are valid without holding them up against the other person's beliefs.

For instance, even your statement, "* It must exist in its entirety from the beginning of creation for all of mankind." is inflammatory because it makes a claim that's impossible to substantiate, and accuses your listener of having beliefs that don't meet the test even before offering any explanation as to what religion(s) have existed in their "entirety from the beginning of creation for all of mankind."

Can you tell me? How do we know that?

Or, is this something we need to take on faith?

Written communication is much more recent than the beginning of time.

When was this? Did God have a name other than God?

Are we talking about the same God as the Christians, Jews, and Muslims?

I have some difficulty with others of the five tests, but let's leave those until I can fully understand these two points.

Every year thousands of Hindu devotees participate.

So who is Murugan, and what is this rite Thaipusam?

Hello Malley - February 21, 1999
I never assumed you knew about all the existing religions.

However, If you don't, then why do you assume there is only ONE true religion.

Obviously you can't possibly know, unless your learned in all religions.

Why does there have to be only one?

You do have an extensive knowledge of Hinduism, so I can't help wonder why you wouldn't know about this Hindu ceremony.

I don't think any religion is supposed to be a science project.

It is a path towards dealing with ethics, morals, life cycle events, and dying.

People make a mistake when they try to apply science to a poetic effort of dealing with life.

Myths are poetic.

So I'm not sure, if you can't explain a ceremony in a religion you know about, how can you explain about the ceremonies you don't know about or can't relate to another’s historical poetry?

So tell us about this tradition. That way we too can understand.

Hello ellen - February 23, 1999
Ok, for the sake of argument, I'm going to say this.

Thaipusam is brutal, inhumane, and against G-d. Since it is a part of Hinduism, therefore all of Hinduism is brutal, inhumane, and against G-d.

The truth is, I don't know any more about Thaipusam than you know about Shabbat.

But I am not going to jump in and criticize you without knowledge of what you do.

Honestly you must admit that you don't know a thing about Judaism to be making those proclamations.

At least we aren't going on to the Hinduism boards attacking your beliefs without knowledge of them.

Hello malley2 - February 25, 1999
Tell us about suttee, another unusual Hindus custom.

Hello Gudgrief - February 27, 1999
No vij, It's Shakespeare, and it's one of his more poignant comments on the human condition.

Strange that you should bring up Napoleon. He recognized the value of science. He also knew what science is

I'm sure someone has pointed this out already, but those statements are logically inconsistent, self-contradictory, and contextually invalid on the face of it.

Nothing that you have posted, nor any of the information contained on your Website or it links do anything to contradict that falseness.

Your posts consist of nothing more than your insistence that you are right because you are right.

One small point. "there were past creations and as well as there will be future ones" - contradicts three of the other four tests.

In view of your intransigence, rebuttal is a waste of time.

Hello Malley - February 27, 1999
vj - you're stalling Tell us about suttee.

Has nothing to do with religion

Is in harmony with science, natural laws, reasoning. And, is confirmed by direct cognition

The "true" source of science is the physical world.

Hardly a good bassis for a true religion.

Nothing I have posted denies G-d's justice.

That there are vast differences is unfortunate, but nevertheless a fact.

and you blatantly refuse to supply any explanation other than to repeat those same arguments.

What does any of this have to do with G-d's fairness? Please explain.

gg -
* It must conform with natural laws.
* It must be in harmony with science.
* It must be in harmony with reasoning.
To say more would belabor the obvious. Unless you can show how past and future creations are consistent with these three tests.

Now, now. For someone who calls people friend, and wishes them well, casting aspersions on peoples' heredity is not fitting.

Were there a panel of judges to rule on a formal debate, there would be a fixed end point.

There would also be an assumption that the loser would accept defeat graciously

Is courtesy, civility, attentiveness, even patience not consistent with the five tests?

I have a hunch that VJ's understanding of his own religion is not as accurate as he makes out.

He seems lost in the confusion between the principles involved and the failures of individual adherents

His exposition of the "Five Truths or Tests" departs drastically from the source material posted on his Website.

I base this on having been through about half the material on his Website

Sorry, I haven't been through all of it, yet. There's a lot of it.

Links are fractured. Grammar is terrible. Organization is not terribly logical

Never mind. I'll be back when I have finished.

"Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much."

Judging from your name you are of Indian descent.

Your native country of India is a country which follows about 500 or more different Gods. All these so-called Gods haven’t assisted your native country at all in all the horrid situations wreaked on your people.

If its not a war between shieks and hindus, its a meltdown at a nuclear plant.

Maybe listen to these Jewish people or come on over to the Christian message boards.

I'll be glad to talk to you and have a friendly conversation over how "wrong" we are to believe in something other than the economy or unstable world we live in.

You have probably viewed me as a racist by now but I say I am not I'm just observing a few things in the world today

Israel was outnumbered by 3 different nations at one time in 73'(was it 73'?) and came out on top. Is there a God taking care of them? I think so.

As for your test to true religion: Religion requires something that everyone in daily life relies upon:FAITH.

Your nation hacks Christians to death and is not open to new ideas therefore it suffers bitterly

and if you call me racist lets look at the barbed wire bestowed in your nations men’s hearts. If your a female Indian its a wonder you survived out of your mothers womb if you were born over there.

You may find fault with Christians in the dark ages but I guarantee your country at the time was in just as much turmoil.

Yes we were wrong.

Today? Christian Childrens Fund, The Salvation Army (my church) and other organizations study charity as Christ taught.

When people wonder away from Christ's teachings that’s when the trouble begins

India is in turmoil NOW TODAY PRESENTLY. They will never get out of it either.

Atleast we learn from our mistakes.

but I think faith is a great thing.

Even atheist use it in daily life.

And how would you know all biblical writings were done by white people?

They never had cameras you know.

In the bible and I'm unsure of the Torah or Coran, color isn't talked about much.

The biblical times weren’t all too bad. They didn’t segregate people due to the color of their skin

Read the book before u judge Most intelligent read I've had it.

The truth is Israel had a God the others did not.

How can a country win a war in six days(67) against big adversaries?

As for faith, my Grandfather served in the Canadian forces and some of your country men served the British commonwealth to defeat the Germans. Funny. God came out on top

Fascism will never disappear but the world proved at the time they will not sit quietly while people are oppressed.

I feel I'm in the wrong place to talk to you.

but I would rather talk to you on a Christian msg board

You are fun to talk too.

what do they predict?

can you post your data? which religions have you tested, and what are the results?

are there any tests you've rejected? why?

i certainly wouldn't have the balls claiming to have a finished set of results that weren't evident and reproducable by an unbiased observer.

how do you establish that g-d is just?

if your argument is in another web page, then your post is a solicitation, not a valid post.

what, exactly, is an immutable law of nature?

now, here's how to test a vedic religion: 1. hide some rare object in a remote spot. don't tell anyone what you hid or where you hid it. 2. die. 3. get reincarnated. 4. go where you hid the object and retrieve it. now, if you can do that, that's what i'd call a test!

Hello tigger 90503 - May 05, 1999
how did you come up with these test.

Did you take the test.

you don't have 5 tests of a true religion, you've got 5 plucked-from-butt musings about what you think a religion should be.

you don't have a surplus of balls, you have a deficit of brains.

i hope you get reincarnated as a planaria so you can eat your words about absolute laws of nature.

planaria, of course, eat and shit from the same orifice.

and by the way, what does any of this have to do with Judaism?

fess up, you don't give a shit about judaism or this board, which is composed of jews talking about judaism and other interested parties talking about judaism.

you're just soliciting to build up the click-through rate at your own page. very bush, singh, very bush.

now go get me some goat curry and a plate of poori bread, and make it snappy.

Dear Friend - May 09, 1999
Did you ever wonder why the Jewish people don't believe in the New Testament?

How come for 2000 years the Jewish people have been dedicated to Judaism to the point of allowing themselves to be killed rather than convert to Christianity

He's uninterested in learning anything, only in insulting.

He had a topic in here that got deleted for lack of interest and he's insisted on dredging it up again, with no new insights.

Hello BlackFedora - May 14, 1999
I find it interesting that this thread appears on the Judaism board.

There is a parallel thread on the Islam board.

Could it be that Vijai posted his load of tripe simply to bait Jews and Muslims to challenge him so that he can continue his verbal diatribe of fecal matter?

Nah...I must be just a little too cynical.

Hello Colette_17 - May 16, 1999
I have read all the comments on this subject, and I am not here to insult or defend anything.

I would merely like to know if Mr. Singh is serious about his attacks, or if he is merely interested in starting and continuing a debate, as it is glaringly obvious that the barrage of invective from both sides has become increasingly vitriolic as the argument has become more prolonged.

If the latter is Mr. Singh's aim, then he has amply accomplished it.

If not, then we have problems, as this kind of racial intoleration is the source only of death and destruction.

You stated 5 "truths" of true religion. I wont bother to discuss your actual "truths" but your "opposition" to those truths reveals your true ignorance of judaism.

Truth 1: You stated that all those before moses were deprived of the 10 commendments. a) Judaism is a lot more than the ten commandments b) how do you know that those before moses did not know of the ten commandments c) jewish tradition teaches that g-d had a torah (of which the 10 commandments are but a small part) and needed a world filled with people to follow its blue print for life d)G-d DID exist from the beginning of creation for all mankind.

I could go on but I'd like to discuss your next "truth".

You state that the religion must conform with all natural laws. your opposition, that man could not have been created (from dust) is a breach. Who established the rule that humans are created by reproduction?

this "truth" also is a contradiction to your first one. According to this "truth", there could not have been a creation caused by a supreme being (If you agreed that it could, then this being could CREATE a person) yet your first truth is based on the premise that there is a supreme being with rules for life (only that truth felt the 10 commandments could not be that truth).

Your next "truth" that religion must be in harmony with moral reasoning and the opposition that the creation of man and woman opposes this moral law lacks reason. How many men and women had to be created in order for it to have been moral? Based on "truth" number two, g-d HAD to create a man and woman, otherwise the natural laws wouldn’t be in place.

Your next truth, reveals your total lack of research into judaism and its beliefs. There have been NUMEROUS works written by jewish and non jewish scholars alike who reconcile belief in creation and the age from creation with the numbers given by science.

For your last trick, er "truth", you stated that the religion (truth as you put it) must be confirmed by 4 evidences. Plug in rabbis, talmudic scholars etc.. for rishis et al and you could say the same for judaism.

I'm not looking to knock your beliefs,

you could believe that you were created by a unicorn for all i care, however, once you display your ignorance of judaism publicly and state that it isnt a "true" religion, I feel the need to respond, in case there is ANYONE who reads your posts and the nonsense isn’t self evident.

can you demonstrate a single rishi with an age of only ONE million years?

elephant-sweeper writes: The rule that we are all created by it now and will be in the future, is the rule that would have applied to the past. So said one true God of the Vedas.

this is also interesting. you guys have thousands, if not millions, of g-ds. who can keep count? so are all the other g-ds of the vedas false? which one is the true one? krishna? vishnu? bidi? shakti?

and speaking of as it will be in the future, what about the buddhists, an offshoot of the vedics... why don't they see your truth?

in fact, of the hundreds of people who read these boards, and the few who actually post, NOT A SINGLE ONE has said gee, sing, sounds like a good idea; sounds compelling; sounds promising. nada. is that what makes an objective test?

True abraham was a prophet, but he was also a human being, as a human being he could fail. Maybe in your belief system prophets were g-d like men who didn’t fail, not in judaism

Even if he was a prophet, it doesnt change judaism belief that a human is fallabile, no matter how great.

You really should brush up on your judaism before you try to discount it

Vijay, you can worship your Darth Veda, I'll worship g-d.

Tell that to the Pakistanis.

Hello ellenmarshall - May 20, 1999
That's a contradiction, vijay.

How could a false god effect an undertaking like a Holocaust?

Hello Collete17 - May 20, 1999
Mr Singh: Learning to spell 'argument' is always a good idea before you pick on my 'intellectual prowess'

Plus, you got so caught up in admiring my writing style, you forgot to answer my question.

Are you flying a Semtex-loaded kite or are you really serious?

Yours in all seriousness Colette_17

Hello ellenmarshall - May 21, 1999
You have already stated that all Hindus are not righteous and that they have been punished for it, just as the Jews have.

So why deflect it now? So where is your merciful G-d? Why do your people suffer?

Why do you totally deflect criticism of your faith by insults and then expect anyone to listen to you?

I nominate Vijay for the Vayiftach Es Pi Ha'Ason award for this month.

Hello Colette_17 - May 21, 1999
I second that. L'chaim!

Hello Colette_17 - May 22, 1999
Mr Singh: I do not debate because I do not know enough about either side of the argument.

There is no point in debating a point if I do not know what I am talking about.

I joined this page to learn, and my comments so far have been on what I have read here

If you would do me a favor and give me more info about your side of the argument, I will be happy to debate with you.

Hello theshmoozer - May 25, 1999
"Whatever that is"? As an "expert" on Judaism and the Jewish bible you should know exactly what "that" is.

Hello the_exegete - May 26, 1999
goat-boy writes: There is yet a Jewish scholar to rationally refute the five truths above.Where are they, in hiding? i'm not speaking as a "jewish scholar" which i certainly am not, or a jewish anything, which i am;

but as a member of the group of people who have ever actually passed a high school science course.

singh, your premise has been entirely refuted.

you have failed to state what your "tests" test to any objective tester.

even the xtians have friends that come and enter the fray in their support, but you, it appears, are alone in your concept, and deservedly so.

you must either stop calling your ideas "tests" or provide some backup for them before your ideas can be discussed rationally.

Proof's on you. People have challenged your "truths" and your only defense is to call them idiots.

Prove that it isn't you that's the idiot.

Hello BF - May 26, 1999
Judging from your response, it won't be long before you are "NotQuiteBrainDeadYet".
You claim tests and truths, but to date offered absolutely no evidence to support your statements (not that you've made any)

nor have you provided any refutations of anyone else (unless you consider insults and name-calling to be refutations.

If your agenda is to gain converts, you have failed miserably...

if it is to insult as many people as possible, you've succeeded.

If it's the latter, wipe up your spilled ejaculate, zip up your fly and go away.

The only conclusion to be drawn from this discussion is that if you VJ (as in virtual jerkoff) consider yourself to be representative of your those who follow your religion, then you consort with a pack of obscene, egotistical and disgusting individuals.

But I refuse to believe others of your religion are like that so you must be the lone asshole.

To everyone else, the only way to make this kind of misplaced fecal matter disappear is to ignore it. I implore you all to exactly that. BF

He is uneducated in all religions/philosophies/sciences including his own.

As far as the Vedas go he relies on the interpretations that he agrees with and discredits the ones that he doesn't like for no other reason than self righteousness.

His knowledge on everything is prejudiced, biased, purely subjective, and poorly researched.

The only thing he has going for him is the ability to write moderatley well on his web page (if it wasn't plagerized).

His responses are abusive, amazingly contradictive, rarely consistent with what was brought up in the post he responds to, and commonly unintelligible.

His repeated claims that he is wise while anyone else who disagrees with him is an idiot, moron, monkeybrain, etc is bordering on pathological, anti social, narscisism (sp?).

It is not possible to actually "discuss" anything with him.

P.S.- Don't worry VJ you won't be seeing me again on any of your boards.

even the most traditional jews recognize that there must be something at least in the form of an attempt at objective proof;

reliance is made on a preponderence of the evidence and on a chain of named people relaying eyewitness accounts of specific public events happening at named places and on named dates.

whether they are true or not is immaterial;

the fact is that the need for objectivity and the possibility of error is acknowledged. as for myself, i certainly don't claim to have a fully-functional "truth."

i have a framework where premises can be worked out objectively so people can draw their own conclusions.

now, the reason i deigned to respond yet again here is that singh has brought up some of the unsavory activities of our ancestors to bolster his own case.

Hello ace1 - May 27, 1999
singh, you forgot a few... abraham throwing a pregnant woman out of his tent, reuben sleeping with his father's wife, simeon and levi destroying an entire city because their sister was dating the mayor's kid, judah sleeping with his daughter-in-law, abraham and isaac both pimping out their wives as sisters. this is the beauty part about the scriptures. the heroes are human beings, frequently scum.

the lesson is that you can be scum and still accomplish great things. quite inspirational, actually.

Hello ellenmarshall - May 27, 1999
If a faith is successful, it should transform a person into a person who exemplifies the tenets of the faith so ultimately they will not have those negative character traits.

Since you are supposedly so well-versed in your faith, how has your faith failed you?