Baruch - I knew you were an Indic chauvanist. How wonderful ... are you really determined to repeat all the other mistakes of the West as well, in addition to overreliance on rationality? I have studied Devanagari (Sanskrit alphabet) ... if you know Sanskrit (and you probably do) how jealous you make me! To read the Gita in the original language! I have always wanted to be a linguist but don't have the talent ;-( As far as souls go, I have five souls and believe that the lowest one, the one most closely associated with temporality, will pass away some day, when the temporal world experiences me having passed away. In the sense of being anxious to reunite with the universal Father in an eternal fashion, the poisoning of my lowest soul might not be so bad an idea ... at least as a slogan about fighting our tendency to inappropriately cling to our present existence like so many of the elderly do.Please excuse my chiding, I was only poking fun at New Agers, including Kabbalists like myself, but the barb wasn't aimed at you, but it was contextually irresistable ;-( Please accept my compassion and admiration though.

Baruch - very Indic. I find the golden mean between the dualities to be active (in will and emotion) rather than passive. This seems to be a fundamental metaphysical difference between the East and West. And is a reflection of my sometimes Hegelian methods.
As an ascended master I can assure you that I am already in Heaven, internally (conventionally speaking, Christ in me), since Heaven and GeHinnom lie in every heart.

Baruch - I share your concerns, that is why I am a universalist in regards to salvation, like the Greek Church Father Origen.

Baruch - I already answered that, but I share your concerns because at the 5th level of the soul we are all the same individual ... that is why it is called the collective unconscious instead of the individual unconscious. Taking the Hindu perspective, this dialog is just Brahman putting on different masks of personality and individuality and playing a game with himself is it not?
For me, the Father referred to by Yeshua, is the G-d of all, especially those who have never heard of him. G-d exceeds our ethical standards as Everest towers over the depths of the sea.

Baruch - revelation is the method by which we become aware of anything ... the revelation that I and many of others have had at a tender age, that letters convey language, was a greater revelation than that of John on Patmos. Your definition of reasoning seems too narrow, but since you don't outline it, it is difficult to tell exactly how many and which rules of the hermeneutical exegesis of your life experience you are following. Mathematical logic is a very narrow version compared to the vastness of dialectic and rhetoric, including the may schools of these disciplines in the many branches of Indic philosophy and religion.Heaven is both internal and external.

Baruch - I am not claiming omniscience. I don't even think that G-d in Heaven is omniscient.

Baruch - as I implied in the string on immanence vs transcendence, my G-d dwells everywhere and nowhere. That pretty much covers it, does it not? And I am not claiming omniscience for my G-d, just omnipresence/eternity and omnicompassion. But my rejection of omniscience and passivity of the godhead is part of my argument about theodicy, which we can deal with elsewhere.
I know that the tires on my car work, by direct experience; I don't need, fortunately, to try all the other tires in the world on my car, in order to know that;-)

Baruch - by ignorance I assume you mean 'avidya'? We are all a little bit like that, so I see no problem there, so long as we all try to climb out of the pit of sin and suffering and assist our fellows to do the same. I have noticed that 'protection' is a frequent refrain with you. Again that leads us to theodicy. Briefly, as a good parent, G-d wants us to grow like a mustard plant ... a kind of weed. To do this we must be planted like a seed (microcosm in the macrocosm) in the soil of temporality (physical universe). Why that is, may beyond anyone's ken, and the answer is pragmatically unimportant to those who suffer ... they need immediate relief, not a lecture, as the Buddha might say. Metaphysically Buddhist practice leads to extinction or void, but to Western eyes the same method leads to fullness. Given the commiting of the seed to the earth, it is subject to 'the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' alas. But both pain and pleasure can be used, if we choose, to advance the growth of the plant to the point where it bears fruit. I like to think of myself as an apple tree ;-) The fallacy of Baconian induction is evident. As far as other faiths go, I have carefully studied most of them, and find all of them salutory one way or another, and I am assured in the Spirit that yours is also, since all good things come from the Father (or Mother if you prefer) including the good things (talents ... a 100 weight of precious metal) you have been entrusted with.

".....And to cut off the roots of the unbelievers......I will assist you with a thousand angels, ranks on ranks..... "I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks And smite all their finger-tips off them." Sura 4:7,9,12. "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:..." Sura 5:54.

Baruch - not everything written is salutory, nor is every part of every scripture. Nevertheless I choose to recognize and honor the meaty truth within the discardable husks of tradition. The question of human sacrifice and violent jihad is as problematic as the Passion itself. In this life we are in the anteroom of the hall (which is the external Heaven; conventionally my being in Christ) of the Lamb where the great Messianic wedding banquet is already being prepared.

Baruch - if my Lamb were exclusive (as most Christians consider it), and not known under many names, it would be an injustice. Fortunately, our G-d is looking for us, even when we are not looking for him, we have only to look closer than our own skin.

Baruch - I am above all chavinism, if you have observed me closely. G-d does all he can, but not as much as we would like, not just out of justice, but out of humility. Even G-d bows to the god in us (as the Muslims tell that Iblis failed to do). Death is just one example of another of his many attributes ... mercy. As far as passivity and omniscience are concerned, I replied above. Revelation is ever ongoing, not just a one time event ... in this all religions err, in order to provide inappropriate convenience for the clergy. Vijai, Materialism plain and simple. Have you read De Rerum Natura by Lucretius?

Baruch - some books must be skimmed, others must be read through, yet others must be sipped one verse at a time ... over a whole lifetime, like a rare aged liquer.

Baruch - our understanding of G-d evolves over time, because we can imagine him only in our own image, and our image of ourselves can become more civil over time. Or if you prefer, our G-d learns from his mistakes ... as is demonstrated in his remorse after the Flood. Or even more jewishly, the Torah (5 books) is a library of law, with Genesis providing case law examples of lawlessness, and the later four books giving examples of preventitive and reparative statutes, along with some more examples of bad behavior. The Bible isn't for children, and sometimes not even for queasy adults ... which is part of its uniqueness ... since it takes reality by the ***** instead of just offering it a handshake.
There isn't time to read every great book, but to have missed having touched another profound human spirit is always a loss!

Baruch - I read many books, and besides, I am not interested in being efficient or in saving myself trouble, since trouble will come anyway, and the journey at this point is the reward! Including the posts you have made that I will never have time for. So much to do and so little time ;-(

Baruch - very jewish of you. "Don't fail to start studying Torah today, because there might not be a tormorrow" is an old Talmudic saying. In olden times supporting a poor scholar who didn't otherwise have the means to study was considered particularly meritorious, because after all, the poor have no time to study books. But I wouldn't equate the poor with fools thereby ... even the rabbis made that mistake in their morning prayers ;-( You need to break out of the 'all analysis and no synthesis mode' if you ever expect to abide on Mt. Meru. Just two nights ago I visited there, with my wife and daughter, in a night vision.

Baruch - conscious life is only a waking dream, as the deity Brahman could tell you when he wakes up ;-)

Baruch - more appropriately from your point of view, my ignorance is the cause of it. We are not called into the world to avoid pain and misery, we are called to alleviate it ... and if pain and misery didn't exist there would be no point in alleviating it ;-) That is why I am sympathetic to Buddhist, but not a Buddhist. Like 'near death experiences', we glimpse the immortal halls of the Father each in our own cultural context, but that doesn't make it less real, it makes it more interesting.

Baruch - certainly I don't condone unnecessary violence, but I doubt that what a Muslim terrorist experiences in Heaven is what he expected, nor will it be for me. Heaven is like this world, a subjectively experienced but yet objective reality ... not just wish fulfillment. My experience of eidetic dreams prove that 'there is more to heaven and hell' than is dreamt in any human philosophy, and yes daemons do bring the unappreciated gift of pain and suffering (though woe to those who bring it, since they are sinning by doing so).

Baruch - books and conversation allow me to touch many lives and thoughts, neither I nor anyone else is limited to personal experience only, though all experience is apprehended personally. My ability to be touched by the lives of many others is an advantage my ancestors did not have. I have rejected nothing of yours, that is why I dialog with you, but rather a part of you is thereby incorporated into me, like a favorite desert. But my investigation of human nature including human philosophies and religions is in most respects ithorough in its essentials ... if not in all details, as is yours.As far as Mt. Meru goes, my family and I did bathe in a sacred river, with attendants, and having covered our nakedness with white towels provided, my daughter and I sipped a clear liquer in a 'demitase', the liquer having flakes of precious metal in it and it tasted like flower petals, like a Rajput harem might smell.

Baruch
I knew I would like you ...
Thu Jun 28 19:55:17 2001
but your reverse psychology ;-) is causing me to swoon ... some Kabbalists say that you spend part of eternity in Heaven with your worst enemy studying each other, an act of ultimate humility, since one's antithesis as any Hegelian will tell you, leads to the inevitable synthesis that the teleology of reality demands. You might just be my eternal theology study partner or 'chaver' in Yiddish. It gives me goose bumps all over. Every good knife needs a an even better whetstone ... and knife or whetstone ... you are sharp!

Baruch - myth doesn't equal false and fact doesn't equal true!

Revelation is realization of the presence of G-d in the world, and from that realization we make useful tools, myths, that allow us to live better.

Baruch - Yahweh and Yeshua are meditation deities, not the Absolute, they are mythos. That is the reason for the inconsistency ... and our inability to reason around apparent paradoxes.

You are jumping to a conclusion, claiming a victory before anyone has crossed the finish line ;-)

Baruch - I would hope I am beyond cure today, since to be fully cured is to be dead!

I don't get your use of the word static ...

Your appraisal of me is very inaccurate if that is true.

I also don't get your reference to me as a hypocrite ...

My victory or defeat is of no consequence, but your ego betrays itself.

Baruch - ellipses alert, ellipses alert! You didn't answer my rhetorical question, which was from a soul as innocent as those you claim I mislead. I lead no one, I mearly witness to what I experience, no more.

Baruch - what you say here is good, if a playing with words, but duty is a lesser motivation that bhakti, devotion.

If your belief is theism, what is the name of your G-d, unless Dharma, and is it personal or impersonal?

before Noah ... that are implied ... were earth angels ... in fact all the folks before the Deluge were earth angels or the offspring of rebellious angels and earthly angels.

Baruch - Medicine is still being discovered, no doctor has the whole course ... I expect sharper wits from you ;-) Know vs know. I channel a spirit imperfectly. And I experience indirectly and directly. I only know now, but will Know fully later.

Baruch - Per Paul, the teachers are judged more harshly than the students, since they know better.

And G-d is made perfect through weakness, not strength.

If the Jews in Poland had ignored their anti-gentile rabbis and gone abroad before it was too late, had been both as wise as serpents and innocent as doves, more would have survived.

Baruch - absolutely right. Jewish and Christian chauvinism comes from the Devil, but Judaism and Christianity do not.

*Baruch - not at all. I love the Q'uran, which I do regard as valid revelation if correctly interpreted by the spritual instead of the worldly.
* Vj ~ How do you interpret this spiritual - "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:..." Sura 5:54.?
Baruch - all temporal revelation is temporal and therefore imperfect. What Muhammad is saying is 'take me for your example, not these others'. He is making his claim to leadership, but that is always tainted with egotism and self interest.

True Islam is not anti-jewish or anti-christian, but the Caliphs thought otherwise when it came to slave girls and plunder, like all others tempted by conquest.

Baruch - not fear, efficiency. Web sites that are constantly mutating and are, by hyperlinks, non-linear, are a trendy but inferior way of conveying truth. A BB is much more effective, but not as good as being face to face in a yeshiva.

If Christians understood Paul, and because of Satan's temptation or antisemitism, most to not, they would know that there is more than one way to be saved (you don't have to be a Christian, Christianity is a means and not an end),

Baruch - Christ as Absolute, this is true, Jesus as meditation deity, culturally and individualy mutated, this is not true. Only the King can let you in the palace and there is one King, but many views of him exist.

But in brief, temporally we suffer from temporality, eternally we rejoice in bliss.

If I blew up a Catholic Church in the name of the Catholic Church, would the Catholic Church be guilty? A bad argument Vijai ... do better next time.

War is caused by corruption, which is present in everything.

Suffering in India for example, is not caused by religion, it is caused by politics and economics. The same thing in Palestine and N. Ireland. True religion is the cure in all cases.

Baruch - G-d is omniscient, but not omnipotent in the temporal world, else the world would not be temporal.

Revelation does conform to nature, you are just mistaken as to what nature really is (a manmade way of dealing with reality, not reality itself).

There is only one revelation, one story, one history, but it appears inconsistent because it is in the process to being revealed in temporality, and can't be revealed all at once, because as temporal beings we can't experience everything at once, but only one thing at a time.

*Baruch - like I said above, the 10 commandments aren't in Genesis, but all five books were revealed to Adam etal.
* Vj ~Then it was up to Moses to dig it out from the five books to remind those who have lost it, and not up to God to reveal time and again what man has rejected or lost by their own fault.
Baruch - with G-d's help, yes. He was the only one ready for it, by virtue of his humility and compassion.

Baruch - Heaven has many rooms, to which each human type pertains.

It appears you have not taken to heart the ending of the Mahabharata.

Baruch - myth doesn't equal false and fact doesn't equal true!
* Vj ~ So lame-brain, Baruch is neither false nor true, is he also myth?
Baruch - why yes of course. I am just a figment of Brahman's imagination right? But Baruch means 'blessing' and if we have the right intention and make the right effort, that is no myth!

Baruch - Revelation is realization of the presence of G-d in the world, and from that realization we make useful tools, myths, that allow us to live better.
* Vj ~ Your skull could have been cracked for a while which would explain why your brains have leaked out. How does the myth of martyrdom in Islam, which calls for the murder of innocent non-muslims, Judaism's claim of all non- Jews as satanic and Christ's proclaimation that he is the only way to salvation, allow us to live better
Baruch - you need to get more educated. Both Islam and early Christianity have a myth of martyrdom. It is the 'satanic' other who kills the believer, not the other way around. The Christian and Islamic approach to opposition is theoretically peaceful, but boys will be boys ;-( The Jews were taught that the gentiles are satanic because the gentiles repeatedly oppress and kill them ... a natural but non-spiritual reaction. Spiritual Judaism knows that the gentiles are not satanic, just mislead like everyone else, including the Jews.

Baruch - Yahweh and Yeshua are meditation deities, not the Absolute, they are mythos. That is the reason for the inconsistency ... and our inability to reason around apparent paradoxes.
* Vj ~ You are indeed a brainless twit! Only an idiot would let "mythos" intefere with the absolute and if they are "mythos" why would the absolute create them to mislead you? Secondly, if you do not have the ability to reason why do you continue to object to one who is willing to teach you.
Baruch - mythos doesn't interfere with the Absolute, it is only my temporal tool to climb toward the Absolute. I created them under inspiration, not (directly) the Absolute. I have never objected to you at all ... and you have already taught me many things ... you are very funny and very mistaken about me.

You are jumping to a conclusion, claiming a victory before anyone has crossed the finish line ;-)
* Vj ~ Why shouldn't I, when I have lapped the field already with only one lap to go? You, on the other hand, have yet to begin the race. You are not even at the games yet. Your conclusions are based on your own ignorance due to your failure to examine my faith. Like other idiots of false dogmas, you make up your own interpretations to fit your own ignorance of what religion and who God should be. I on the other hand, have constructively cricticize (all beliefs including atheism) what is false to show what is true.
Baruch - I have examined it superficially. This string is derived from my constructive criticism of your 'five principles', which I mostly agree with.

Baruch - I would hope I am beyond cure today, since to be fully cured is to be dead!
* Vj ~ What nonsense is this idiot? If death is the cure of all ills, who needs revelation or God?
Baruch - If I made sense I would be secular and miss the mark. Of course death (in the conventional sense) is the cure of all ills because through it we are joined to G-d, who is himself the cure of cures. Revelation is like knowing we are in the examining room, being examined by a nurse ... and that the doctor himself will be along shortly ;-) Also, if you see my answer to a more recent string above, it is my belief that we are in fact dead, and are awaiting birth into eternity!

Baruch - I don't get your use of the word static ...
* Vj ~ It is better to accept it as it is, because a perverted intellect (non-functional) could never get use to it.
Baruch - Ok, I will take my hypothetical assumption as to its meaning as being true then.

Baruch - Your appraisal of me is very inaccurate if that is true.
* Vj ~ Not from the point of view of true knowledge.
Baruch - But no temporal point of view equals the view of true knowledge.

Baruch - I also don't get your reference to me as a hypocrite ...
* Vj ~ Do you really think a hypocrite knows he is a hypocrite and cheat? Those who have failed to do thorough and impartial investigations of all philosophical treatises, before impressing on the world their own conclusions, are hypocrites.
Baruch - Well I am glad that you have finally completed what I have already accomplished long ago. But don't be surprized that we didn't come to exactly the same conclusions ... afterall, we are only temporal.

Baruch - My victory or defeat is of no consequence, but your ego betrays itself.
* Vj ~ How could that be idiot, when you know nothing of the faith I propagate?
Baruch - Then your five principles are not principles at all? If I know the foundation of what you believe, then by reasonable implication I know you completely, if your development of your ideas is rigorous. As per Euclid, if I know what all triangles are like, I only have to keep in mind an ideal triangle to know them all.

Baruch - ellipses alert, ellipses alert! You didn't answer my rhetorical question, which was from a soul as innocent as those you claim I mislead. I lead no one, I mearly witness to what I experience, no more.
* Vj ~ The question has been long answered, but if the idiot who keeps asking it hasn't the intelligence to draw a conclusion from all I have posted including my site, then whose fault it is?
Baruchc - well I suppose that an implied response is better than none at all. Thanks.

Baruch - what you say here is good, if a playing with words, but duty is a lesser motivation that bhakti, devotion.
* Vj ~ Duty (Dharma) entails everything including devotion. It is because you are an indiot (spelling or freudian slip?) that you seek to seperate them. What good is devotion without the correct knowledge? It simple shows that even devotion is a sin, if practiced incorrectly.
Baruch - You touch on a great matter. Does faith come before knowledge or knowledge before faith. You have come down on the horn of one polarity. I would prefer to consider it a false dichotomy, like most temporal things.

Baruch - If your belief is theism, what is the name of your G-d, unless Dharma, and is it personal or impersonal?
* Vj ~ My God has a name for His nature, every attributes and characteristics which one are you interested to know? He is always permanent and there are no second, third, fourth, etc. (temporary).
Baruch - Thanks, but what is the name for His nature, and are the list of attributes longer than the 99 the Muslims count? Kabbalists limit themselves to 10.

Baruch - before Noah ... that are implied ... were earth angels ... in fact all the folks before the Deluge were earth angels or the offspring of rebellious angels and earthly angels.
* Vj ~ If you believe there were angels and still do see angels, you belong in a lunatic assylum (another deliberate mispealling? -not when I speaking to an ass.).
Baruch - Well I certainly hope so! Bedlam is the corrupt pronunciation of the asylum called Bethlehem near London. And I certainly hope I am in some way always in Bethlehem.

Baruch - Medicine is still being discovered, no doctor has the whole course ... I expect sharper wits from you ;-) Know vs know. I channel a spirit imperfectly. And I experience indirectly and directly. I only know now, but will Know fully later.
* Vj ~ How can one without wit be the judge of those of wits? What doctor of medicine have graduated and because "medicine is still being discovered" is yet to receive a medical degree?
Baruch - A degree is only a bone tossed to convention and careerism. And those who are ignorant make perfect judges of the knowing, the witless of the witty. If the witty tell a good joke, and the witless laugh, then it is a good joke indeed!

Baruch - Per Paul, the teachers are judged more harshly than the students, since they know better.
* Vj ~ Paul himself needs a lesson on who is suppose to be a teacher. Were the Jews (teachers) the only ones subjected to persecution and tyranny throughout the ages?
Baruch - Of course not, but Jews are champions at kvetching about tsuris, complaining about trouble. All of creation suffers the birth pangs, until the baby is delivered.

Baruch - And G-d is made perfect through weakness, not strength.
* Vj ~ How can an All-powerful God be weakened because of fools like you? You are completely nuts my friend and you haven't an iota of sense when it comes to the attributes of God.
Baruch - our list of attributes may differ, but we will have to wait and see about that yes? Think in terms of a circle not a line ... the starting point is the ending point ... to be all powerful in theory is to be perfectly weak in practice.

Baruch - If the Jews in Poland had ignored their anti-gentile rabbis and gone abroad before it was too late, had been both as wise as serpents and innocent as doves, more would have survived.
* Vj ~ It is not the "anti-gentile rabbis" that is the demise of the Jewish race, it is their worship of a false god. Where was your god when it all happened, busy having sex with Sarah and Virgin Mary in heaven?
Baruch - Sex is the highest form of worship for Hasidim, and for Tantrists. Guess kundalini resembles orgasm. G-d is everywhere, like the prophetic Rachel, crying for her hurt and dying offspring like any good mother.

Baruch - absolutely right. Jewish and Christian chauvinism comes from the Devil, but Judaism and Christianity do not.
* Vj ~ If you believe the devil to be something else than yourself, then that too warrants confinement to the lunatic assylum (there goes that strange misspelling again. Are you anal retentive? either that or you are still an ass)
Baruch - The messiah is the serpent, and to the extent I channel Yeshua, I channel the serpent, who as any Jew would know, is also, paradoxically, the Adversary. In this way the Devil is like the vision of Iblis in Islam, the most loyal subject of Allah ... who is eventually redeemed (retired?) from the role of adversary assigned to him by Allah.

*Baruch - not at all. I love the Q'uran, which I do regard as valid revelation if correctly interpreted by the spritual instead of the worldly.
* Vj ~ How do you interpret this spiritual - "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors:..." Sura 5:54.?
Baruch - all temporal revelation is temporal and therefore imperfect. What Muhammad is saying is 'take me for your example, not these others'. He is making his claim to leadership, but that is always tainted with egotism and self interest.

* Vj ~ Well jackass, if temporal revelations brought about such hatred and divisions as these, what good are they then to human race?
Baruch - Half a loaf is better than none to a starving man! It was the temporality or man, not the revelations themselves, that bring discord. Keep 'actor' and 'acted upon' separate.

Baruch - True Islam is not anti-jewish or anti-christian, but the Caliphs thought otherwise when it came to slave girls and plunder, like all others tempted by conquest.
* Vj ~ True Islam is what is written in the Q'uran and what I have quoted from the Q'uran you are dismissing it as untrue. Are you that stupid, man? Stop and think (reason) for while, that is, if you have got any brains left.
Baruch - Your quotation is factual, but your interpretation (like many others) is false. Scripture is a fact, but interpretation is truth.

Baruch - not fear, efficiency. Web sites that are constantly mutating and are, by hyperlinks, non-linear, are a trendy but inferior way of conveying truth. A BB is much more effective, but not as good as being face to face in a yeshiva.
* Vj ~ What difference does it make to the earnest searcher of truth if the book is on the web, a library or a bookstore? It would take an imbecile to simple dismiss it as any other web site without investigating its truth.
Baruch - I did not dismiss it, but the life lies in dialog with another, not something static as texts.

You have enlivened me always since we first met.

Baruch - If Christians understood Paul, and because of Satan's temptation or antisemitism, most do not, they would know that there is more than one way to be saved (you don't have to be a Christian, Christianity is a means and not an end),
* Vj ~ More than one way to be saved from what? All I see is different heavens which are segregated abodes, each their own faith group. So is a Jew suppose to save him/herself from going to a Muslim paradise or vice versa.
Baruch - Very creative ... I am impressed. No, while Jews and Muslims in their temporal state would believe so, the love of the Father for all his children will be the only reality. Even the prophets have to be populist some times ;-(

Baruch - But in brief, temporally we suffer from temporality, eternally we rejoice in bliss.
* Vj ~ How can God who is himself not All-bliss offer eternal bliss? Again if the soul is not eternal how can it enjoy eternal bliss? Do you understand the meaning of eternal - "that which has neither beginning nor an end"?
Baruch - Yes, a circle has neither beginning nor end. Both G-d and the soul are like circles ... but the G-d beyond G-d or Ein Sof is like the center of the circle, a source but not on it. But I thought that you yourself gave the attribute of All-Bliss to your god, am I mistaken?

If I blew up a Catholic Church in the name of the Catholic Church, would the Catholic Church be guilty? A bad argument Vijai ... do better next time.
* Vj ~ When the Catholic religion is full of apologies for being responsible for persecution, sexual abuse, tyranny and barbarism , how could it not be held guilty for the bombing?
Baruch - You missed my point ... but on the other hand ... nobody can learn without making mistakes, so I guess the Catholics have learned a lot!

Baruch - War is caused by corruption, which is present in everything.
* Vj ~ It is what I have been saying along, that if corruption is present in "everything"( religion), then it is not true religion.
Baruch - We agree. But we won't have uncorruptible religion until we enter eternity.

Suffering in India for example, is not caused by religion, it is caused by politics and economics. The same thing in Palestine and N. Ireland. True religion is the cure in all cases.
* Vj ~ Listen lame brain, pain and suffering whether they be political, economical or natural , are the result of unrighteousness. God is just and as such no innoncent soul can suffer. True religion, which is in harmony with reasoning and science, and conforms with natural laws, is the only cure for pain and misery.
Baruch - We agree again ... I just express the idea differently. But there are no innocent souls, and the full cure requires the death of the patient (as sybolically related by the Passion of Jesus).

Baruch - G-d is omniscient, but not omnipotent in the temporal world, else the world would not be temporal.
* Vj ~ Could it not be that He is always Omniscient and Omnipotent and that the "temporal world" of pain and misery is His divine justice? Why are you twisting God's attributes to the lowest of your ignorance?
Baruch - A good point. Some of the scripture writers felt as you do. But I would say that G-d is both just, merciful and modest ... and more highly developed souls lean more toward mercy and modesty than you do ;-)

Baruch - Revelation does conform to nature, you are just mistaken as to what nature really is (a manmade way of dealing with reality, not reality itself).
* Vj ~ I am speaking of natural laws jackass, and not nature itself. There are laws which are responsible for the orderly functions of the world through nature. This is what I am speaking of. Out of nothing, nothing can come, it is the first law which your Torrah, Bible and Q'uran have breached.
Baruch - Only in literal interpretation. The miracle of an budding flower doesn't require a suspension of natural law. The miracle lies in how we relate to it ... and all miracles are of this type.

There is only one revelation, one story, one history, but it appears inconsistent because it is in the process to being revealed in temporality, and can't be revealed all at once, because as temporal beings we can't experience everything at once, but only one thing at a time.
* Vj ~ Perhaps if your god was gracious enough to reveal it all at once you'd be surprise what a human is cappable of. Besides if you are not capable of experiencing "everything at once" in this life whose fault is that, God? Here is one who has done it in a less than a life time and for reasons beyond our control, there are other lives to come where one can accomplish it.
Baruch - If a finite sack is filled with infinity, it will surely burst. In G-d's mercy, G-d won't do that. Perhaps you have reached your apogee, but how sad to have nothing to look forward to. And I am sure that your accomplishments were built on your previous lives as well.

*Baruch - like I said above, the 10 commandments aren't in Genesis, but all five books were revealed to Adam etal.
* Vj ~Then it was up to Moses to dig it out from the five books to remind those who have lost it, and not up to God to reveal time and again what man has rejected or lost by their own fault.
Baruch - Up to Moses yes, but he wouldn't have done so without inspiration, nothing is done without inspiration. And you are right that we are careless children ... but I can see that in relation to my own child.

Baruch - with G-d's help, yes. He was the only one ready for it, by virtue of his humility and compassion.
* Vj ~ So according to your logic, "virtue and compassion" are also traits of a murderer. Your god is surely short of logic also, to think that being god he could have easily find a soul free of such devious crimes to commune with.
Baruch - My G-d is a realist not an idealist. He also called David (which means beloved) as a man after his own heart, and he was a man of war and adultery and murder. Like the father of the prodigal son, He can overlook our faults if He wants, when we come to Him in teshuvah (repentence).

Baruch - Heaven has many rooms, to which each human type pertains.
* Vj ~ Who labored to build these rooms when heaven is supposed to be a blissful state for everyone.
Baruch - it is a poetical analogy. When an Israelite married, he took his wife to live in the added on bedroom of his Father's house. No segregation, just the privacy of individuality.

Baruch - It appears you have not taken to heart the ending of the Mahabharata.
* Vj ~ The Mahabharata is not a revelation but etihas (history). Why don't you try to persuade your wayward ego to do some soul searching and relieve yourself of the dense ignorance that has taken hold of static intellect before it is too late? Right now you sound more like a jackass on two legs spewing out worthless commentaries.
Baruch - If I am a jackass on too legs, then like the talking dog, the wonder isn't how bad I talk but that I can talk at all ;-) All poetry is revelation ... and history is just the lower two levels of a four level system of literary criticism. The higher two being allegory. Why would I soul search, my soul is right here!

I will just leave it at that.

However, I will make a few points. Firstly, one need not know "anything" about any religion to know philosophically, morally, and ethical that there simply cannot be "one true path" assuming you believe in a supposed "omnicient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent creater of the universe.

I can, if you are interested, provide impressive and convincing proof to support this contention with, what I would consider, an "infallible" philosophical argument.

Secondly, I can also make a case that if there were only one true religion (which is an impossiblity), Judaism offers the most impressive argument philosophically.

Why don't you attempt to prove to me that Judaism is ultimately false. (Of course I am confident that can refute your contentions with pure logic and overwhelming evidence that only a close minded fool could deny or ignore).

I look forward to your response if you have the courage and are not afraid of possibly be proven wrong. with respect,

Who said anything about following the "prophets" blindly without questioning?

Let me ask you a few simple questions: Have you studied Judaism in depth? Have you studied the written and oral Torah (and from the proper sources) and looked at the evidence for their authenticity [written/oral law]? Apparently, from perusing your website you clearly have not.

Therefore, how can you reject Judaism outright as being wholly false.

Please do not missunderstand me. I am not judging you or anyone else.

We are all God's children and equally loved no matter what religion we embrace (I can also provide evidence to support this universal true statement).

Many, albeit well meaning people, are guilty of proposing the same incorrect conclusions regarding religion and Judaism in particular.

Are you intelligent and, more importantly, open-minded enough to delve deeper into these issues - and perhaps, maybe see a possible flaw in your religious convictions.

I would be interested to hear more thoughtful response from you. signed, respect for all people of all religions

Additionally, this statement simply does not hold true. It is your "man made" definition.

It is entirely possible that God planned that mankind would be ready to recieve that Torah only at a certain time in our evolution.

Also, your own definition of one right path violates many of these ideas (ie must be in harmony with reasoning). Most people adhere to the religion they are born into.

Why would God create only one true path knowing that humanity as a whole would never embrace this?

After all isn't God all-knowing and all-powerful (knows the past, present , and future).

One other point for now - the Torah (Jewish bible is not inconsistant with science, the book of genesis in particular is remarkingly consistant with science (I refer you to any of Gerald Schrader's books). The bible never claimed that the earth is only 6,000 years old (relative to earth time). I can go into this in a lot more detail if you like.

Vj ~It must conform with natural laws. Oppose - The cause of the physical body is the reproductive element - any other method of conception as 'virgin birth' is a breach to this law.
Virgin book has no place in Judaism

Vj ~It must be free of historical references. Oppose - Revelation is eternal and must be the same for all creations past and to come. Oppose - Historical references violates this law.
Judaism's revelation at Mount Sinai is ETERNAL for all time.

The Torah is binding on all Jews etc. Incidentally, Judaism clearly states that it is not the only one true path to God for all people. This seems a lot more ethical and moral then what you propose.

Vj ~ Its truth must be confirmed by four evidences:-
(i)Direct Cognition -Not all that is known by perception can be true.
(ii)Inferences - God is eternal therefore we can infer that there were past creations and as well as there will be future ones.
(iii)Testimony - The testimonies of Rishis, sages and seers of the Vedas (altruistic teachers are all in harmony with each other.
(iv)History - There are many books (Mahabharata, Valmiki's Ramayan) and source of other civilization which speak of the past ancient Vedic (Aryan) civilization.
What is your point here?

and why must revelation be free of historical references? This makes no sense

However, your responses seriously contradict some of your own statements.
Vj ~Perhaps if you truly understand the true functions of natural laws, you won't see a contradiction.

How can an omniscient, omnipotent...being provide "one true path" and have most of the world reject it (free will notwithstanding)?
Vj ~ If most of the world rejects it, it is not His fault, but that of most of the world. Why should it seem impossible to be so, when you yourself is a living proof of its rejection even though it is right before your eyes.

It would seem that such a God would, it simple terms, make this one true path a little more obvious
Vj ~ It is obvious for those who use good intellectual reasoning guided by the correct knowledge. Then again natural laws dictates that whatever is finite must decay and universal righteousness is no exception. This much you must know that all things created must die. Meaning that, that this is the last age, the age of unrighteousness (false dogmas or perverted intellects) as opposed to the first age where righteousness was abound (paradise).

(there are many brilliant religious/philosophical) scholars would logically refute your ideas.
Vj ~ My definition of brilliant scholars are those whose theories conform with natural laws.

Furthermore the fact that most people adhere to the religion they are born into would put such peoples at a clear "disadvantage" in terms of accepting the "right" path. Therefore either God is "not" all knowing and all powerful or he/she is not just.
Vj ~If they are at disadvantage it is because of the soul's previous sinful actions of past life and not because of God. But there are many births to come where if one should come in contact with this truth, one can elevate one's soul. In the case of your religion and all the others, those who are deprived in remote regions are suffering a greater injustice and no fault of their own and even worst 'eternal hell' is their final destination.

I am only scratching the surface here regarding the philosophical issues with a supposed omniscient, omnipotent and, omnibenevelont creater. I look forward to another thoughtful response (please provide the link again) with respect,
Vj ~You are not scratching anything as far as I am concern, unless you strive for functional (inquisitive) intellect. In short, investigate my faith first before defending yours.

PS - I can also challange your statements point by point if neccessary.
Vj ~ And what is preventing you do so, so far? Put your arguments on this messageboard so that others can benefit.

I must say I find your ideas disconcerting and disturbing at times (especially your very false and narrow minded conclusions regarding Judaism).

To quote some obsure passage (and I do question even the validity and accuracy of this passage from some "Hassidic source - ie that all non-jews are.....). This passage is so far from the realm of Jewish thought that it is laughable.

The only thing that you may manage to accomplish by posting this crap is to continue to spread anti-semitism over the web!

Judaism is a religion of doing good deeds and embracing love for all humanity! "Love your neighbor as yourself" - not love your Jewish neighbors.. This my friend is the essence of Judaism.

How can your God create humanity with free will knowing that most people would embrace a spiritual path other then your one true path (in your mind).

Furthermore, it is far from obvious and clear which path is supposedly the only true one.

Note the many brilliant philosophers, theologians, scientists, etc. throughout history who have rejectded your path(based on logic, historical evidence, philosophical reasoning etc.). Do you see my point.

And how come you have not explained the mystery of the Sinai Revelation (see prior e-mails)? You have not because I believe you cannot!

I would be happy to explore your ideas further but you have not shown me any compelling evidence to do so (and I suspect that could be why most of the world's population would support my views and reject yours). How about it. I'm waiting.

PS - Your path is one of an infinite number of paths that lead to God and enlightenment.

What matters in life is embracing love, compassion, kindness, sensitivity etc. for all living things.

Since you clearly do not understand the story or the implications of the Sinai revelation I will provide you with some detail to support my contentions The question that begs to be asked is "Could the Sinai revelation be false?

It is critical to understand that not a few Jews heard God speak but "millions" of Jews heard God speak (100 percent of a large and identifiable group).

Wow would a brilliant and magical madman or a bunch of great con men to pull off such a feat!

So let me ask you a question. With so much overwhelmeing evidence to support Judaism's authenticity as a "true spiritual path" why would I want to explore your path when you continue to make statements that contradict Judaism (and therefore logically must be false!).

Reply to: JGBrosh@cs.com - Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:38 PM
"It must exist in its entirety from the beginning of creation for all of mankind. Oppose - Millions born before Moses were deprived of the “Ten commandments”. An injustice which cannot be the work of a Compassionate and Merciful God. "
How is it that you feel the "Jewish" God cannot be compassionate because people born before Moses could not embrace the 10 commandments - But your "Compassionate" God could condemn (to use your words "lost souls") most of humanity for embracing a different path - people who believe they are living according to God's ways (even if done in ignorance) -

People who day in and day out embrace kindness and love!

This God is omnibenevolent!!! Do you see the absurdity in your reasoning! Please respond thoughtfully.

We have the tradition that once on Sinai mt., the Torah was revealed to the jewish nation. And we keep that tradition! And pass it from father to son!
Vj ~ The same was done for the Vedas also, but the difference is ours took place from the very beginning of creation for all of mankind, free of historical references, depriving none. History is created by man and only man writes history and not God.

"Revelation is a communication of something, which the person to whom the thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done a thing, or seen it done, it needs no revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word revelation and therefore is not the word of god." Thomas Paine

Reply to Shmuel Ruppo - Jun 5, 08
NO ONE CAN FOOL A WHOLE NATION THAT SUCH A GRAND THING HAPPENED, WHILE IT DID NOT.
Vj ~ When that "WHOLE NATION" were in bondage for 400 years and later one man almost annihilated that "WHOLE NATION", 6 million to be exact, then somebody had to be fooled.

If you publish our dialogue at your website, please use my initials instead of my full name.
Vj ~ There you go, your own proof that your religion is not true religion. Anyone who is the true follower of the one true religion will have no fear of letting the world know his "full" name. Haven't you noticed that my full name is everywhere?

If I prove that mine is true, it proves automatically that yours is false.
VJ ~ IT IS VERY SIMPLE LOGIC, IF YOURS IS TRUE, MINE HAS TO BE FALSE, BUT THE ONUS IS ON YOU TO SHOW ME THE FAULTS OF MY FAITH. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CANNOT PROVE YOURS TO BE TRUE WITHOUT PROVING MINE FALSE. A child is so termed the most brilliant in a class when all the students' IQ are measured or tested.

So what that it is allegedly from the beginning of creation??
VJ ~ IT IS BY FAR A MORE RATIONAL OR JUSTIFIABLE THOUGHT THAN IT OCCURRING ANYWHERE DURING CREATION. GOD IS JUST AND THUS NO HUMAN BEING CAN BE DEPRIVED OF ANY THE WHOLE OR ANY PART OF REVELATION.

Annihilation and bondage is not the same as fooling.
VJ ~ EXACTING PAIN AND MISERY ON A WHOLE NATION ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE IS BY FAR WORST THAN "fooling" THEM.

I have my own reasons. Will you respect that?
VJ ~ I ONLY HAVE RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE THE COURAGE TO DISSEMINATE THE TRUTH.. SO IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR MY RESPECT SHOW ME WHERE ANY OF MY FIVE TESTS OF TRUTH ABOVE, IS CONTRADICTORY.