Listeners' Poll
Tom Zenk
Greatest Guest Ever
Part 2
Dave Meltzer On 16 October, 2000 Wrestling Observer Live listeners voted Tom Zenk best guest in the history of the show. The final count was Tom Zenk 48%, Raven 22%, Jim Cornette 11%, Ric Flair 10%, Bad News Allen 10%. Announcing the poll results, Meltzer conceded that the vote was 'overwhelming' and a 'landslide' but chided his listeners saying "I wouldn't have voted for Zenk. I would have voted for Bad News Allen."
The Flair legacy...
Meltzer - You know the saddest part with David is that they rushed him out there, and with almost no training. David Flair is RIC FLAIR'S SON. You've seen it before. In certain cities, like Charlotte or Gainesboro, with the right build up, he could have meant something, like the von Erichs in their home cities. He could have meant something if he was just a competent worker that people saw as someone on the rise. But he was out there and the poor guy, unfortunately, became a joke from day one. He's out there as a comedy figure. But it's like, it's really sad.
ZENK - It's really sad, but Ric also got humiliated or they did the wrong thing with him in the WWF. You know how they take the edge off you up there and you have to play Vince's game. And it was Hogan's town up there then. Hogan couldn't perform like Ric and take a guy and do an hour Broadway. Flair can do it. But what I'm saying is, he's got to be careful to go out with some style, for gawd's sake. What? Did he spend every dime he ever made? I mean being around the business. But he's got a booker mind. He can book. Bookers should never wrestle at the same time because they're clouded, their vision is clouded. When he was booking in WCW he was overworked. Working and booking were too much for him.
Meltzer - Oh, remember that. He was looking bad!
ZENK - Yeah, the bags under his eyes were what myself and Johnny Ace really noticed.
Meltzer - Yeah!!
ZENK - And we felt bad for him. Even Janie Engle said the same thing. You could tell it was just too much. But he knows the right thing to do. And I think the boys do too. I'm sure they don't mind if Flair's kid collects a check because Flair did a lot for the business. But keep him off TV until he's ready. I mean look how much money they pissed away already. $80 million. Give him $120,000 I don't know - but just keep him off TV!! Have him go to the Power Plant and have him watch Ric Flair tapes and interviews for 12 hours a day. And if he needs to go get some gas, you know, I can help him out. I can go to Mexico across the border (laughter). He can get a three month supply and I can help him out. (laughter). But what's the hindsight to this? Flair was never too endearing to me, in helping me out when Ole took over as booker. And look at Johnny Ace - he had to hide out in Japan. Shane Douglas - he made a career out of trashing Flair [over Flair's failure to put over younger wrestlers]. (laughter) But now, I could be in shape to have matches with Ric Flair and [put over] his boy. But I'm not going to wear out, I'm going to rust out. I've got another job. It's just too bad that they threw away a generation of wrestlers [who could be putting over the young talent today]. Hindsight is 20/20. I guess I saw things through a different set of eyes, body and face than some of these other guys. So I had a different perspective on what works and what doesn't. And I've never really had an ego about wrestling. I did jobs. I didn't give them any crap - I just told them 'beat me some more.'
WCW's historic failure ...
Meltzer - OK. Serious question. You were there during the early years of the WCW buyout .... Ultimately, the current sale, if it goes through, and it probably will - well then, the 12 years under Turner are going to be looked on as a failure - in that, they came in, they were owned by one of the biggest companies in the world...
ZENK - With deep pockets ...
Meltzer - With deep pockets! By all rights they should have created a dynasty in wrestling that nobody ever had before. And except for about a two year period, they were basically a losing company to Vince McMahon. If you were going to put a finger on what went wrong - and one of them you mentioned right there was that the people put in charge of the company didn't know wrestling - where would you point the finger for the basic 10 - 12 years being failure years?
ZENK - Well let me give you a bit of a summary. This is from my 'tainted view as said by Tom Zenk, the Z-Man'. You've got to be put in the spot and it's all politics. It's all playing the game. But I never kissed anyone's ass and I was kind of a straightshooter. OK - so having said that....When Turner acquired it, the NWA-WCW, it was a turning point for me and for the professionalization of wrestling. With guaranteed long term contracts they were making an investment in your career, in the talent, and in the creation of talent. WWF was eventually forced to match it. But despite all the attempts by Herd, Petrik, Kip Frey and Bill Busch [at modernizing the business], they [the old style carnies] worked them. They just swerved them because they could never really guess what was going on behind the scenes. So they were subverted by the old style carnies - the old wrestling promoters. People like Ole, Dusty, Bill Watts. They preferred the exercise of personal power, like it was their OWN company. You know, they ran the company through cronyism, nepotism - and professionalization and accountability were just thrown out the window. They drove out real talent. They had Mick Foley, they had HHH, they had all these guys that really really loved getting hooked up with WCW and who were proud to work for Turner, and they discarded them in favor of their sons and old, or cheap, or green workers. That's the way Ole and all the old style promoters ran it. Like their personal property. But no! it was Turner's company. Then there were contracted workers and the old style promoters that created animosity, bad feeling inside the company, based around lowering wages and conditions leading to the exodus of talent like Foley, Steiners, Austin, Ace, Hall, Nash, Douglas, Zenk, HHH, more recently Benoit and Malenko. I mean like guys making a half million and they choose to leave? Finally, WCW ended up with Bischoff. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth, he kept both sides happy, he mixed modern managerial-speak with old style cronyism. And finally bankrupted the promotion trying to make a name for himself, with big money contracts and no accountability. He let the inmates run the asylum. You don't let guys have control over the finishes. In my contract, if I'd have said "I don't want to do a job". Boom. "You're fired Zenk." I read an interview where Les Thatcher said about me that "if I was thinking no I should have said no, instead of yes". But they purposely do the wrong thing. And it's all caught up to them - but it's taken 12 years to lose $80 million a year. I'll give you a classic line. This is a really good one and Ole should sue me if it's slanderous. I went into Ole one time when he was burying me. He had just fined me $3,000 for missing a shot when I had a personal conflict. Do you remember that?
Meltzer - Yes I do!
Ole [Anderson] said to me "For Sting's salary, I'd suck **** all day - just line them up." Suck it ....
ZENK - OK. So I went into the office. And I met with him. It was up at Gainesville. Flair was shaving. I'll never forget it. And Ole was giving me the raspberries.... And I said to Ric, "Ric, when you hired me at 156 thousand a year for two years, was it just as a job guy to get beaten like a rented mule? And Ric said to me (impersonating Flair) "And who's done more jobs than me." (laughter). And what do you say to that! That's how clever Ric is. And I'm sure you can hear him saying that. OK - so it went further. I had my friend [an attorney] out in California write WCW to buy me out. "If you don't want me, don't ruin my career, just buy me out". (On the web page it has all those legal documents. I don't know if you saw it or not. Papers from Turner and an analysis.) Well, I caught Ole, one on one, in the office one time. It was Jim Barnett's office. "C'mon in here and we'll talk." And I said, "What's going on here. Why are you busting my chops. You split up me and Pillman [tag team]. Why are you busting my balls. And Pillman's. What about Sting? He's making $750,000 a year - how do you justify that? Why don't you go after him. [In his matches] All the people are dressed like chairs." (laughter). Yeah, Ole said to me (impersonating Ole) "For $750,000 a year. I'd suck **** all day - just line them up." And Ole - Al Rogowski - if you're listening - you sue me for slander if that's a lie because that's the damn truth. What do you say to a guy who says something like that to you. He went after me and Pillman, but not after a guy like Sting who wasn't drawing but was getting $750,000. And Ole's answer was "line them up and he'd suck **** all day for $750,000".
Meltzer - Well we've got to go to a break right now. (laughter) But we'll be back right after this.
Mid South and AWA
Meltzer - We have a couple of email questions. This is from Vic. "When I was a police officer in 1982 - 1984, I worked at Paul Boesch's wrestling shows. Tom Zenk worked one of the preliminary matches but I never saw him again. I remember him because Tom Zenk was a nice, good looking young guy with a good physique. How long did he work for Mid South? Did he like it here? And why did he stay such a short time?"
8 x 10 glossy sent to Watts from AWA Scrapbook
ZENK - Oh. Well that was the first real territory I went to. You know you sent the 8 x 10 glossies [photos] to Bill Watts and I got hired down there. And an interesting story on that. The first night I wrestled at the Centraplex down in Baton Rouge. And on the chalk board, when I came back from my match, Terry Taylor had written 'Tom Zenk is too pretty.' (laughter) Yeah. And at that time I didn't really know. Ed Sharkey had half smartened me up but you didn't know how much travel was involved - you didn't know the money - do you know what I'm saying? So this was really an eye opener. So I went down there, and I had a Ford Fiesta, but I didn't know you travelled two or three thousand miles a week! And these guys you know, the Rock and Roll Express were down there, and Condrey and Eaton. And the babyfaces were always fighting for spots. They kept them insecure, the way Bill Watts liked to run his thing. And I said "Where do you guys live?" And they all lived in one apartment complex, I don't know, somewhere central to Louisiana, right? And none of the guys were real friendly or whatever. And I thought " Wow, there's a real strange feeling here." So I asked them where do you guys live? And they went "O here and there, so and so". They weren't very helpful. And then after I was down there about 10 days my dad had an angioplasty done. He went into the hospital - an emergency thing - and it kinda shocked me so I just upped and left. To get an apartment down there you'd have to have a $250 deposit. Well I didn't have that money and the pay day - well, you couldn't get Watts into his pocket. So I had to just pack up my stuff. It didn't work out so I left. And Bill Watts stiffed me on the time I was down there.
Meltzer - Really?
ZENK- Yeah. He stiffed me. And I called the office one time and asked for the money and he said "You're a flake boy!" You know that 'boy' stuff. And I thought "Oh. OK." So when I drove back from Louisiana, I drove back the whole way and I went into Verne Gagne's office that same day, when I got back, and Verne was out to lunch. I talked to his secretary and I talked to Wally Karbo for a while and he eyed me up and down from my head to my boots. And I was 6'2'' good body and stuff. I said "I was just down wrestling for Bill Watts and he didn't really have much for me and .... blah, blah, blah". And all of a sudden Verne came in. I went into his office and he gave me 10 minutes of his time. I said "Hey I know you're a busy man. Just give me 5 minutes of your time and I'll show you I can wrestle, I think I would be an attribute to you. I used to be Mr. Minnesota, blah, blah, blah". And he gave me the gaga and 2 weeks later he was training me for free with Brad Rheingans and Rick Renslow.
Meltzer - That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
ZENK - Yeah, Ax (from Demolition) or The Alaskan or whatever. He was a friend of the Sheik Adnan Al Kaissey. The other deal was a great con, how I got in with Verne. Do you remember 'Juice' Garush, Al Garush, when they all jumped to the WWF. That's when AWA were losing guys, remember?
Meltzer - Yeah ... they were jumping to the WWF.
ZENK - Yeah. So they said, we'll set up a ring, blah, blah, blah. So a week went by. Two weeks went by. So I called the office and I talked to Mary the Secretary and I said, "Hey, was it someone from your office who called or was it the WWF? A guy named Juice?" And she said "Oh No. He's with the other office [WWF]." And I said, "Well this is Tom Zenk," and I talked to her and made a point of being real nice to her and charming, and I said "They wanted me to start. Was that you?" and she said "Hang on just a minute!!" (laughter). And she came back to the phone about 2 minutes later and she goes "Do you know Verne's place out on Highway 7?" She said - "It's a mail box that says Gags? Verne will have the ring up on Monday. You start out there at 9 o'clock in the morning with Brad Rheingans." And this was on a Friday afternoon.
Meltzer - That is a GREAT con!! Especially if you understand what wrestling was like during that time period. That's pretty clever! Now this is about someone who you know, you've known the guy a long time and he's almost a protégé of yours. What do you think of Johnny Ace coming back to WCW?
ZENK - Well. Ace was always nice to DDP. Johnny's a nice guy. I don't know what happened to him in Japan but see, it was like he was looking for a place to go.....
Meltzer - Well what happened was he spent a career with All Japan, then all the guys like Misawa, Kawada, all the guys that you're familiar with, all split, formed their own company or actually the only one that stayed was Kawada...
ZENK- Yeah, Kawada is loyal
Meltzer - And everyone else left and at that point Johnny Ace got the job at WCW. He probably saw the handwriting on the wall. So instead of one major league company [AJPW] it's going to be two minor league companies [AJPW and NOAH].
Jim Barnett .....
ZENK- I'm sure Johnny saw the writing on the wall, pulled his Ace card out and called DDP. He knew they were floundering but he was always nice to them and he knew DDP had some stroke with Bischoff. They had history and he's Animal's [Road Warriors] brother and Johnny's a real nice guy. He's very clever with finishes and he knows how to manipulate. Now Johnny Ace, myself, Terry Taylor, you and Ric Flair - we could probably book that place and turn the whole thing around. And Jim Barnett, I called him a few weeks ago on a Sunday, (impersonating Jim Barnett) "Oh hello my boy, how are you Tom?" I said "Good. And how are you?" - Y'know I never like these guys to forget my name!! He made me promises that he never kept. - So I said "What's going on Mr Barnett? How are you doing?" giving him the gaga. I said "I'm going on Dave Meltzer's show and I want to light a few people up" (laughter) "It's a very entertaining show where you can say what you feel like." (impersonating Barnett) "Oh, I'm not hooked up to the Internet Tom and I don't have any contact with wrestling." A week later I see him with Dick Bayer up in Buffalo [on a WCW PPV] and he [Bayer - The Destroyer] is in the audience still wearing the mask gimmick.
Meltzer - You mean, Bayer was in the crowd with the mask on?
ZENK - Yeah, sitting beside Barnett and Barnett was yawning at the matches. And I though yeah, that's a tell tale sign of the matches, Mr Barnett. And you told me a week earlier (impersonating Barnett) "Oh no, I'm not in wrestling at all. I have no idea Tom." I though "You liar, you old fart. 70 or more years old and this old fart is pulling my chain?" And he "helped me get a job in WCW" - who cares? I wasn't looking for work. I just don't want Jim to forget my name. Because I know he caused Pillman a lot of problems too. Pillman believed in a guy like that. He didn't know how manipulative Jimmy boy was, you know.
BA - That's the greatest impersonation
Meltzer - You didn't know that Brian (Alvarez) was Jim's grandson.
ZENK - What?
(laughter)
Meltzer - We got you on that one!!
ZENK - Brian Alvarez. You're his grandson?
BA - That's right?
ZENK - Are you serious? Well, why would he lie to me?
(laughter)
Meltzer - No he's not really.
ZENK - Oh I thought he was, because he wrestles in Portland. (impersonating Barnett) "I've always liked Portland. Brian do you still wrestle up there ma boy?"
BA - Yes, I do.
ZENK - (impersonating Barnett) "What's going on with the Commission. I hear there's a lot of heat. What about the rats? Any dirt on any of the boys?"
BA - That is the greatest impersonation too!
ZENK - I have a lot of impersonations but they (WCW) never let me do any interviews. Now that's another axe I have to grind.
(laughter)
Meltzer - Well you're making up for it.
(laughter)
ZENK - Yeah, well thanks to you for letting me on the show. You helped me out with the 156 [$156,000 salary in WCW]. I don't know how you did it, but I figure you were the puppet master. (laughter) Well you did. You told me that they'd go for 156 a year for two years, right. Way before DDP in 1994, way before Austin. I got it in 1989. I never got the push I was promised but "Oh well, that's not here nor there. No point crying over spilt milk!" but I have a heck of a story to tell. I have dirt on a lot of people and I was never married (impersonating Barnett) "But I don't think I'll tell any of the dirt. I prefer to stay anonymous just like Dynamite Kid. No names."
DDP and VKM ....
Meltzer - What did you think about that book [Pure Dynamite]?
ZENK - I loved the book. He was the most honest. I've read them all. Dynamite Kid - I read his. And DDP - well DDP's book was just "Hey guys can you say something nice about me." But instead they all alluded to his knee pads and his hockey pads - he looks like a roller blader - It was all "say something nice" but, come on ... geek. Did he really go up to Vince's office to talk to him and try to go up there?
Meltzer - I don't think he did actually.
ZENK - So he's just putting fodder out on the Internet. It's all lies, right?
Meltzer - I think, I think they definitely had talks but I think that's where it ended - he couldn't get out of his contract with WCW.
ZENK- Oh really - well I think he [Vince] has a good gimmick like Dusty or Dustin waiting for DDP. I'm sure Vince said "Didn't I graduate with you, same year." (laughter) I've got a good gimmick for DDP. He should wear a rubber mask. Someone said "You're always hard on DDP. Can't you say something nice about him?" Yeah - he's got a nice smile. That's about it.
BA - When's your book coming out?
ZENK - I don't know. I've got to talk to Dave on that because I've got to have Dave proof read it. (laughter) Because he has the chronology and maybe different things I've forgotten about. I want to tie some stuff in there with Pillman too because he can't speak - but I can speak for him. You know they should never have broken us up - I don't know what that was all about - because we had really good matches.
Pillman and Austin ...
Meltzer - Yeah. And the same thing can be said about Pillman and Austin. They were tremendous together.
ZENK - Tremendous? They were better than me and Pillman!! And Steve Austin has a really great work ethic. And when I wrestled him in singles. (Hey listen, I'll admit - I had it on auto-pilot a lot. I had god-gifted ability, looks, well that's from to my parents - that's a freak thing, an accident of nature when you're young. When you're older, it's not. You don't look so good and things change. But I didn't need to get railed on). All I was doing was getting Austin ready for Dustin. Just like Steamboat said. That's why he left when Dusty was down there because he said that Dusty didn't have anything for him. That's just the way wrestling is.
This is a well balanced and nicely worked match.From the opening bell Zenk dominates with mat work and aerial work, followed by a near pin from a drop-kick. After some high flying work from the Z-Man, Austin goes to work on Zenk's lower back with a knee-drop followed by a series of weakening holds. Zenk reverses Austin's offensive with an attempted suplex but his weakened lower back fails. Austin covers him for a near pin. In the next sequence, Austin continues working on Zenk's back. Zenk powers out and returns to the top rope for more aerial work. But Austin intercepts and Zenk takes a great bump off the corner post, right to ring-center. Zenk rebounds quickly with a drop-kick and enzuiguri followed by another near pin. As Zenk goes for his signature finisher, the sleeper, Austin rams his shoulder into the corner post. The weakened Z-Man is now set up for 'Stunning Steve's' finisher - the stun gun. Austin gets the pin and retains the belt while the crowd signals its disapproval.
Meltzer - Brian do you have a question?BA - No, I..
Meltzer - Sorry I thought you were trying to ask a question ...
Z - Talk to me Brian ..... Brian Barnett!
Meltzer - I've got a question because you brought Steamboat's name in. What do you think of Steamboat being hired by WCW as a coach for some of these younger guys because, as you know, Steamboat as a babyface was a hell of a worker when it came to timing ...
Z - None better. His and Flair's stuff was real classic. I loved the Steamboat - Macho Man match. They 'stole the show at Wrestlemania III'. I never saw a match like that. I saw that match with him and Macho Man going around the loop, on the road, priming up for it, but they really blew the lid off the thing at Wrestlemania III. And then we had to look at the Honkey Tonk Man [take over Steamboats title]!! Another manipulative thing from behind the scenes - I think by 'The Hulkster'. Anyway I think Steamboat would be fantastic. I read something lately that he hurt his back when he was wrestling Austin?
Meltzer - Yeah. That forced him to retire.
Z - Yeah, he sort of went out with class. He brought his family into the stuff but yeah.... There should be a place for guys like him. They have knowledge. Knowledge is capital. Even I have knowledge and I can still wrestle and do things but, y'know "Oh wrestling! It didn't work out for me like a lot of guys. But a lot of guys did worse and got shafted" but yeah, Steamboat really would be good - the psychology and even just the moves. I went to a show that Harley was running in Iowa and these young guys had a lot of pee and vinegar in them. But Harley was coaching them great and I think they tried to put on a show when I showed up - they REALLY worked. Steamboat, he could shape and help these young talents. Give them some insight. But if the old timers would only mentor and give you the benefit of all their knowledge from all their years. You know what I mean?
Leveling the playing field ...
Meltzer - Yeah. Now when you were there, over all of those years at WCW -and it got worse after you left - the whole situation was that there was always a feeling that the old guys wouldn't pass the knowledge on - except for Steamboat. The guys would always tell me that Steamboat would help them on this and that but all the other guys wouldn't give you those little tips that made the difference between mid-card and main event.
ZENK - You know why that is?
Meltzer - Yeah - they're trying to keep their spot.
ZENK - That's right. They're fighting for spots all the time and nobody wants to help anyone and they want to level the playing field.They called everyone out. They even said I was gay. They said I was a quitter. They said I was a prima donna. And look at the guys today. They don't even want to make their shots. It's like 'What?" So every thing they said about me was all a lie. Quitter in the WWF, prima donna in the WCW - they couldn't BEAT me enough to make me quit in the WCW for three grand a week. (laughter) You know, it's fake. They tell you how much time you have to put in. I mean they were some really smart manipulators - they couldn't bust my back. I took the best all the clever minds could give.
Steamboat and Douglas ....
Steamboat has a lot of knowledge but he was secure within himself. He gave Pillman knowledge. I remember Brian saying he helped out Shane Douglas immensely. And even when I wrestled under the mask (with Steamboat in Dos Hombres) he was great with me. Only thing is though, he pulled off his mask - it's kinda markish - to show that he didn't get pinned. (laughter) It's like "Oh gawd!!".
Meltzer - How many people knew it was you anyway?
Z - Nobody knew!! I think I called you after the match and said "Did you know?" and you had no idea!
Meltzer - Yes!
Z - They didn't know because I know how to imitate. I know how to act. That's the whole point that they ALL MISSED OUT ON!
Meltzer - Hold on Tom just a sec - we'll come right back and talk about that match right after this.
Who was that masked man ......?
The luchadores, Dos Hombres (Steamboat and Douglas?) The Hollywood Blondes
(Austin and Pillman)Meltzer - Welcome back to an unpredictable show here with Tom Zenk. Tom, we were talking about a match that a lot of the listeners probably don't know about but, was it Pillman and Austin against you and Steamboat as Dos Hombres. The gimmick was that Steamboat and Shane Douglas had been feuding with Pillman and Austin and what happened - did Douglas quit the company or was he injured?
ZENK - Douglas quit the company. He thought he was going to hurt them [by quitting] just before a main event and they would be begging for him to come back and wrestle.
Meltzer - So he quit the company right before the main event and they had you wrestle for him under the mask. That's an old promoters' gimmick because they did that here in San Franscisco in 1977 when Fuji quit and they brought Tanaka under a mask and called him Fuji - which was actually a big deal at the time. Anyway they put Steamboat and Zenk as Dos Hombres under a mask and they actually built it up on TV and everyone was under the impression that YOU WERE SHANE DOUGLAS !!
Z - Yeah. But I'd watched so many matches. Once you get it down - once you're on the Japan bus and you're around Danny Kroffat or Phil Lafon for a long time, you get some good ideas and you go over and over and you practice, and you get it down pretty good and by that time I could see everyone's move or I could imitate them, just like the voices. So they were going to have Brad Armstrong [do the Dos Hombres gimmick with Steamboat] but I think he was grandfathered out of the match because he was second generation and "gee he didn't want to do a job under the mask", maybe. I think Ole was backstage at the Omni then, (impersonating Ole) "Who put Zenk in there?" Beat me some more - really humiliate me, you know, oh boy! And no-one even knew!! No-one asked for their money back. And it was a really good match too.
Meltzer - It was a REALLY GOOD MATCH!! I remember that, yeah!
The interview concludes next week - Part 1| Part 2 | Part 3
