The Race Debate

Note: This was an actual debate, transcribed by me. A lot of truth was manifested in this debate due to the fact that most of our participants never held back their views. Everyone's names have been changed. I'm under my pen-name, STUPOR, once again. Remember to read this with an open-mind because it is vital to the understanding of these issues as a whole, and I emphasize the word whole.

Dan
Quit saying African-American. Fuck, I hate politically correct people.

Tom
Thank you.

STUPOR (ME)
Too much white pride here? (Regarding the previous conversation unwritten here)

Tom
It has nothing to do with pride. Do we call white people European Americans? If you're born here you're a fucking American. Black, white, yellow, whatever....

Dan
Exactly my point. Exactly.

STUPOR
But do you really think there is such thing as an American?

Tom
Why yes, yes I do.

STUPOR
Let me put it in another way...do you think we're all equal in America?

Dan
Obviously this is America, and if we're born here, we're American.

STUPOR
I know what you mean, but you can't deny the fact that there are class distinctions topped with a little bit of white pride and it’s sure coming off well here. Everyone wants to hide the fact that we're living in a racist society. Everyone wants to ignore class distinctions in America. I just want to put this to your attention. All this ignorance is just an invisible system of keeping the poor poorer and the rich richer. Race ties into this and it's by way of invisible systems.

Dan
It matters where our descendents come from, but it does not make us European or African, or some ridiculous continent hybrid. "Hi, I'm an Austral-Eurasian-African-American."

Tom
Assigning minorities names based on ancestral origin just for political sake broadens the gap even further as far as I'm concerned. And yes, if you're born in America, why wouldn't you be equal as anyone else? And I'm not referring to socio-economic status. If you're born on this mound of dirt called America, you're an American. People always have to make a political jargon out of everything.

John
Ah yes, one of my favorite George Carlinisms.

Pat
Black people don't have computers... retard!

STUPOR
Oh boy...this is what I mean when I say white pride...

John
You are so dumb.

John
In case you're wondering, I say this all the time. And yes, in case you're wondering, I do have black friends.

STUPOR
Do you want a medal for that?

John
The reason you're dumb is because you fail to see that someone saying "black people don't own computers" is mocking racism. If you find it so offensive, you must believe it to be true. I find it absolutely absurd, which is why it's funny.

Tom
Exactly. Quit trying to make this into a pride/prejudice thing.

STUPOR
Tell your black friends what you said right now. I'm sure you couldn't.

John
I do every single day. They laugh their asses off.

Tom
We all know there are class distinctions; you don't have to remind us. Also, quit equating the dismissal of political correctness to racism. It's annoying and inaccurate. Some of us just like to keep it simple, okay? People seem to think that calling someone "black" has gained an infinitely pejorative meaning. The act of having to constantly remind ourselves of this, by having to go to such lengths as assigning minorities with names like blank Americans, seems to perpetuate the whole thing.

STUPOR
When did I say anything about political correctness and what not? I don't care much about it either. You guys are getting way too nervous and defensive.

John
Um, not really. I don't think we're fumbling at all. On the contrary, I think that would be you.

Tom
What started out as a discussion on the legitimacy of PC turned to race and class because of you. You linked the two, so that's why I said it was annoying.

STUPOR
Why is it wrong to talk about it or talk about it in a manner in which you've never heard of before?

Dan
You're damn right I'm proud of my race. I'm glad to be me. But, there's an even bigger race, and that's called humanity. We are living in a racist society, because people seem to think that everything must equal out. Some Africans sold some of their people to Americans and Europeans decades ago, so now we've got black history month because it's "the right thing to do." There are rich white people just as there are rich black people. There are poor white people just as there are poor black people. Some people just want to work more, while some people inherit their riches. We shouldn't try and make everything equal... this isn't Russia, you know. If you like being in a place where you're equal to everyone else, then by all means feel free to move to a communist country.

STUPOR
You don't get everything by working hard. You can work as hard as you can, but you may not have the same opportunities. As I said before, life is not what you make it. It's exactly the opposite. Some are born into this world with limitations. Due to the fact that I am who I am, I will probably not make it as far as one that might be part of the dominant class. And about equality, of course we're all equal in the sense that we're all human...but not structurally or socio-economically among other things. And what's wrong with communism? The people who look down upon it are more or less advocating right wing conservatism.

Dan
If you would have heard everything I said, you would have noticed that I said some people have things just handed to them. There are limitations, but an even more common situation is someone telling themselves that they can only do so much. That's a sure-fire way to not succeed.

John
He's a faggot.

STUPOR
Homophobia is another aspect of this. By the way, your so called 'mockery' of the whole situation is a mockery in itself. I'm not going to blatantly say 'faggot' to prove manliness.

Dan
Sounds to me like you're racist.

John
You're calling me a homophobe? Oh, that's a good one. You're calling me, a guy who had a crush on his best friend, a homophobe? STUPOR, why don't you practice what you preach by refraining from making generalizations about homophobes, skinheads and white people with tattoos. You look like an idiot.

STUPOR
I think all of you guys are having a hard time accepting what I am saying because a lot of it goes unsaid. Maybe this topic is making you nervous, but all the while, you guys continue to make racial jokes and you get fed up..

Dan
Well, from what I've heard so far, the only one having a hard time accepting anything is you. We're not equal. I don't know where you're getting the nervous part from... perhaps because you're feeling a bit of nervousness yourself?

STUPOR
Don't tell me about oppression, I live it. And I never said we were equal. If you finished hearing everything I said, I specifically said there are invisible systems that limit people due to race and gender. Doesn't sound like equality to me.

Dan
The only one holding you down is yourself. If you believe in some bullshit conspiracy theory and being held back, you're just using it for an excuse.

STUPOR
This is not an excuse. You would like to say that we are causing our own problems. Your denial of this matter is only your way of trying to clench on to your dominant status. Any challenge made to that, you tend to jump at. Does it ever occur to you that due to the qualities attached to females, they are paid lower for equal work. The qualities that pertain to women are considered something natural and therefore unskilled. This applies to race as well in many aspects.

Tom
You're marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Dan
That's a racist remark son.

Shane
I live in a city that is 60 percent Hispanic and I am white. If anything I am the minority here. I have a lot of friends who are not the same race as I am, and most of them agree that they should not be treated differently. As for racial jokes most of the jokes seemed to be aimed at people who are racist, not at the actual person. Get your head out of your ass.

John
Precisely. Racial jokes aren't directed towards the minority, but towards the people who really are racist.

STUPOR
That's an interesting take, but there's also a double standard when you infer that I am a racist. Does it ever occur to you that just by mouthing those words, or even accepting them and laughing at them, you are participating in a racist activity?

John
I've come to the conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.

STUPOR
And none of this still changes the fact that your white skin grants you privileges. Just accept it, that's all I'm asking. By denying your own privileges, you're ignoring it. You're striving to sustain your dominant role in the society because you're afraid your power is being challenged or threatened.

Kat
I do agree with this statement. Its easy for a white person to say that the color of their skin grants them no privileges, but you've never been a black man driving through a white suburban town or a Hispanic woman trying to find a high paying job, or at least a job that won't pay her less because of her gender or ethnicity.

Dan
Just as much, have there ever been a white person driving through a black neighborhood at night?

Kat
I'm a white girl who lives in a ghetto neighborhood, predominantly populated by Puerto Ricans. Do some of 'em hate me because I am white? Yes. Did I say that racism doesn't work both ways? No. Might some of them dislike me because I went to a better high school, better college than them? Sure, why not. I don't know why they dislike me. I don't care. Its easy to gang up on me when there's a large group of you versus a single one of me.

Dan
If you do not care why those people hate you, why are you taking the time to care about other things that are being said here?

Kat
Because I find it interesting. I've never debated with people who have held your point of view, and the best way to try and see where you are coming from is to debate, no? Although this is a crappy debate because a lot of what I say gets messed up, it's better than nothing I suppose.

Dan
The claim that Hispanic women won't find a high-paying job is a bit ridiculous. My girlfriend's mother has been denied a few jobs just because she can't speak Spanish. She can't speak Spanish! In America! And she can't get some jobs!

Kat
Does the job require her speaking Spanish? Maybe your girlfriend's mother should learn it? I have; not so hard.

Dan
What you don't seem to understand is that her mother would not be able to learn Spanish and work full time all at once.

Kat
Well, because that point wasn't brought up originally, you just said she didn't get the job because she doesn't speak Spanish. It's a bit biased to say that, but whatever, its a whole different argument.

Dan
She would need a job that pays enough for her to pay the rent, the bills, and for food and clothing. Then she would have to spend her time and money learning a language that she should not have to. This is America.

Kat
I'm aware, but thanks.

Dan
In case you didn't notice, which you obviously haven't due to your responses, we speak English in America, not Spanish.

Kat
Ahh, English, I know it well.

Dan
It's funny that you can live here in America, not speak a lick of English, and expect to be catered to fully; while those of us who have lived here our whole lives are forced to adapt.

STUPOR
As you said, this is America. It's diverse. Learn to cope.

Kat
I never said that. I happen to agree that you should speak English if you live here. But face it, America is a country made up of nothing but immigrants, and most of 'em ain't coming over from the UK. It has to bend both ways.... people have to learn how to speak English, obviously, but we have to bend a little to what is happening in our country and the fact is that there are a lot of Spanish speaking people living here. In NYC alone, there are more Puerto Ricans here than there are on the actual island. Regardless, I don't believe that Spanish should be made a second language of the states, but... it wouldn't kill anyone to learn some new languages. But that's more a fault of the school systems, etc, etc, and how Americans are just dumb compared to many other countries in the world.

Dan
Everyone wants to make it seem like the world is so against anyone who is not white.

Kat
Are you black? No? Then you don't know what its like to be black. Do you have cancer? Have you? No? then you don't know what it's like to be a person who has cancer. Not a general statement, I don't think. A general statement would be 'all Puerto Ricans can't speak English well.'

Dan
So how the hell do you know what it's like to be black if you're white? And yes, the statements you're making are generalizations, regardless if you're too stupid to understand the fact.

Kat
Um, enlighten me as to why. And I've managed to not resort to name calling, why can't you? People seem to take debates way too seriously. I'm not making any personal attacks on you, I've actually found your comments here pretty amusing. So, if you feel like I'm attacking you, don't, cause I'm not. We're just arguing. So please don't take cheap knocks at my intelligence.

Dan
It's a fucking cop out.

Kat
And it's real easy to say it's a cop out, which would be a cop out in itself, no?

Dan
This goes to prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Don't jump into the middle of a conversation when you can't hold your own. It's like the kids who say "you're an idiot" "no you are" "no, you are!" "you are!"

Kat
Uh, okay? Whatever, it's like damn impossible to retain any intelligence levels on any debates here. In today's society, you can't make a general statement concerning what things must be like for other races simply because you are only the race you are. If you're white, you can't imagine what its like to be black. I don't mean there are grave differences in the person themselves, but there are serious differences when you take in to account what other people think of the color of your skin. Unfortunately, today, if you are born white, you're one step ahead. And to think that you're not is being ignorant. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying that's how it is.

STUPOR
That's what I've been trying to say all along.

Dan
Hey, yeah, now that I think about it... I have this tattoo on my neck that when scanned at the grocery store, I get a 10% discount, excluding milk, alcohol and tobacco of course. Why do I have this tattoo? Because I'm white.

STUPOR
Precisely. You have an invisible set of privileges due to your skin. Don't deny it, just acknowledge it. That's all I'm asking for and then maybe we can proceed to higher levels of understanding.

Sam
Hey guys, you get discounts on groceries? My tattoo only works at restaurants. Damn the system! I'm not getting as many privileges as you! Do you see the logical fallacy? I'll point it out: If you're one race, then you have no idea what it's like to be another race. If you're white, then you have it easier. My question is this: have you ever been a white person looking for a job? How would you know if it's any easier at all? I'm a white kid in a suburban area and I got paid less than my fellow employees at Blockbuster. It just so happened that the person who hired me was Hispanic. Did I get all up in arms about racism? No. In fact, I didn't hear about it until much later. I was upset, yes, but I hardly blamed my problem on me being white. Why? I'm not so fucking touchy.

Kat
There are several reasons why: less experience equals less money, you suck at your job, or you could just be getting shafted.

Sam
We're all socialized by the media these days. The media is pointing out how people are racist towards people who aren't white. Essentially, you're brainwashed to have this idea that you're not as privileged as everyone else. Granted, there is some racism left. You know what? It affects whites just as much as it affects others. You have trouble getting jobs, we have trouble getting home safely.

Kat
Trouble getting home safely?? What the fuck do you mean by that?

STUPOR
Well, sure, everyone is affected by this. It's everyone's issue. Everyone contributes to it one way or the other.

Dan
Hell yeah. As soon as I paint that swastika on my BMW, I'll be able to park right next to my boss, who coincidentally is white and looks just like Hitler. Did you know that running around pointing your fingers screaming about a racist conspiracy is participating in a racist activity?

STUPOR
Running around, pointing fingers is what you've been doing all along. I don't think I've made an accusation on you yet.

Dan
I'd say in 9 cases out of 10, yes, you are creating your own problems. Just as you say I am jumping out to "defend my dominant status," you too are jumping out to claim that I am racist based purely on the fact that I am white. You're straying from the point when you bring up women, but I'll address that. There are many reasons why a woman may make less for the same position that a man is employed. They may be employed at different places. Some companies can afford to pay people higher salaries. The male worker may have been there longer. You can't expect a woman to just get there and have the same pay handed to her. The male worker may have put a lot more time and effort into his work than the woman.

STUPOR
"Some racism left" is an understatement. Your paranoia, more than anything makes me think you're a racist. I've attempted to reinforce a few facts and that’s it. Also, I'm not straying when I bring up women; all these issues work together. To ignore one is to forget about the big picture. Most men are at a higher position than women simply because they are men. Have you thought of that? Therefore, women are thwarted from competing with men even before they are allowed to reach their position. We're all entangled in this system. It's not just based on individuals because the way this society works is like a pyramid, where the one that's highest in the pyramid is there due to the fact that someone is below him. Therefore, all these problems are related. Your wealth depends on other people's loss and other people's services. It's not just on an individual basis.

Dan
Most men are at a higher position because they're men. Well, alright. There goes your homophobia issue if the boss is a man, 'cause that sounds a little gay to me.

STUPOR
You must be kidding me. You need to look at the bigger picture. Most of the times, it's easy to dismiss these issues because you're looking at them one at a time, when in fact, it's not just a single entity, but the entire system. It's almost like a cage..

Dan
I break it down, and focus on one issue at a time. You're taking everything at once, so you're missing details. It's like this: say we both work at the post office. We both have been there since the sane day, we both make the sane pay, our boss likes us both the sane. There, so that's not an "issue" now. I sort the letters one at a time, taking a little more consideration into which letters go where. You, on the other hand, are just throwing handfuls of letters into the sorter, not caring to put them right side up. All you care about is finishing first so you can go on your break before me.

STUPOR
Of course there are exceptions, but these are exceptions. You need to see the bigger picture.

Dan
Like I've said at least 5 times to you: we are not equal. I'm sorry if you have an inferiority complex, and you base the fact of such on not being white. White people have gone through the same hardships that black people have.

Kat
Please tell me you are fucking kidding.

Sam
Okay, Kat, why don't you start naming off the trials a tribulations that black people have to go through and we'll tell you whether or not we've dealt with that or it's equivalent.

Kat
You are ridiculous. What the hell is this, an eye for an eye? Well, this black guy won't ever stop getting harassed by white cops in that white neighborhood, but its okay, because I didn't get to go to college that I wanted because some black kid with suckier grades got in cause he was black?

John
You're funny.

Dan
Oh, that's right... white people have never had to deal with a racist person, ever, except for with their drinking buddies... and that's just not the same.

STUPOR
Remember that it's also not just a black/white issue.

Dan
If it is not a black/white issue, what is it?

STUPOR
I said it's not just a black/white issue.

John
In ancient Egypt, which is, if my geographical skills serve me right, in Africa, white people were enslaved.

STUPOR
There was no proof of that. And by the way, they said they were Jewish. Historically speaking, white people enslaved white people, but they were never enslaved by another race.

John
Uhm, there's assloads of proof of that.

Shane
Jewish people were not white and Egyptians were pseudo black. It was a pseudo black race enslaving white/Arabian people. Why are all other races white when compared to black people. There was something on the news about racism, a white cop shot a black cop by accident. One problem: this evil white man was Spanish.

Sam
What do you call six bruthas riding in a benz? Grand Theft Auto! I'm actually agreeing with Shane more than I am with you, STUPOR. Trust me, that's a very very bad thing. People here are saying black because it's easy. Not to perpetuate some "invisible system" that limits black people in any way. If anything, saying "black" rather than "African-American" helps us break down this invisible system. These terms "African-American" and such are probably not made up by black people, but the people who are white and racist. They throw these out as tokens and keep the black people occupied. As long as they stay pissed about people not calling them "African-Americans" instead of "black," they won't focus their anger on something that matters.

STUPOR
Once again, I never said anything about being PC. I could care less about that. You totally lost me.

Sam
It's like Spike Lee: That guy is not talented. He's a token, for Hollywood to say "Look, we have a successful black director! We're not racist!" But let's face it: His movies are shit. In fact, the only people that go to see his movies are generally black people. That's fine with Hollywood, because they don't want him getting any more support other than those that share his ethnicity. If they got someone with talent, they'd probably be in trouble once people started saying he's better than Joel Schumacher or some other very white and contrived director. It'd upset the natural order, after all. Hell, Hollywood might even come to not only respect, but rely on a black person. And that would be terrible, because we all know how unreliable black people are. Before you start bitching about racism here, that was sarcasm. Shows like "Living Single," "Jaime Foxx," or movies like "He Got Game," or "Big Mamma's House" succeed only because they're black.

STUPOR
They also failed because they were black. What makes you think a sitcom like "Friends" is any better?

Sam
They're aimed at an audience, and as long as that audience keeps buying into it, the audience will remain complacent. The goddamned point: If anything, the encouragement of people to acknowledge the difference between races by use of "African-American," Black History Month, Affirmative Action, and numerous other sources does not help to extinguish racism, but perpetuate it. As long as the system throws out unimportant tokens like these, black people will be distracted enough to never claim true equality. When I'm talking about equality, I mean that we are not necessarily more or less qualified for things because of our race. Our height, weight, intelligence, and numerous other factors are not what I'm referring to. I'm aware that many many many people are not "equal." I just wanted to say that before someone says "but we're not equal!"

STUPOR
I agree with you about the token thing, but that is totally different from Black History Month and Affirmative Action. We're not at the stage where minorities can all of a sudden dissolve into the mainstream culture. Thus, you need extra forces. And you wouldn't have bitched about affirmative action if you knew that white women are the highest beneficiaries of it more than anyone else.

Shane
My white skin never helped me. I went to public school once in 12 years before college and I had a black kid beat me up, because I was white. It depends on where you are. There is a thing called racism towards white people, people just don’t understand it and deny that.

Sam
Very true: there are places where it is very Dangerous to be if you're white. If you're not white, you're fine.Yes, there are those places for black people too, but they are few and far between.

STUPOR
I don't know why I even tried. You deliberately refuse to see it through a different perspective.

Shane
I will be back in a second STUPOR. I need to go see if my hood and cloak are done yet, I’ve got a big KKK meeting to get too. It’s so hard to get stains out of white, we should change the colors of the outfit.

STUPOR
Very funny, but you guys still cease to adhere to the fact that as white men you are more privileged than others. I don't know why you can't admit that and try to see it from a different perspective. Also, your attempt to shed some humor into me is ridiculous because what you consider to be humorous is a one-sided, narrow-minded way of trying to get me to side with your views. Whenever you're stuck, you do the KKK thing on me. I don't think the issues we've talked about are something to laugh off and forget about; not in the context in which we are discoursing at the moment.

Shane
I'm so sorry, but my family has never been well off, and my grandfather remembers being Irish in the early 1900's. I don't see any signs that read no blacks need apply today, but there were signs that said Irish need not apply back then. Also the KKK hate Catholic and Irish people anyway. Middle America hates Catholics and Irish people too. How many Catholic presidents have there been? Not too many I know. JFK was one. There might be one more. I don't see this white thing helping me too much, I also have a friend going to a 30,000 dollar school for free because he was black. I had better grades and a better SAT then he did. He does know he got it because he was black. If you can get it, go for it, but I go to a 5000 a year school and pay for a lot of it myself. Who's better off?

Kat
Are you for real? I'm sure he's getting 30,000 for school for more reasons than just being black... I don't agree with affirmative action, but I know it's not that unfair.

STUPOR
There's nothing unfair about it. If you didn't know, whites females benefit more from it. Minorities need that push from affirmative action because they are oppressed. Are you saying that what has rightfully and historically been yours has been stolen from you? Oppression is not a dirty word. I just want you to accept that it's here all around us. And how many times have we had a female president or a non-white president?